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FACTNET.ORG FORUM: LaRouche Continued 5b


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From http://factnet.org/vbforum/showthread.php?11710-LaRouche-Continued-5

04-16-2008, 11:21 PM

eaglebeak

Elizabeth Sexton Speaks Here we have the first part of the testimony of Elizabeth Sexton at the 1988 Alexandria trial of LaRouche et al. You know, the Alexandria trial in which Government Agent Molly Kronberg "uttered fraudulent testimony" in her quest to put LaRouche behind bars.

But really, Sexton's testimony, and the letters LaRouche wrote her, were the bombshell in the trial--the LaRouche letters a bombshell because they totally gave the lie to LaRouche's constant claim that he knew nothing about any of this fundraising, these loans, etc. Ha!

And of course, in the New York trial in 1989, LaRouche gave absolutely ludicrous testimony on the topic of the Sexton letters, among other things.

But here, with no further comment, just for the record, is Part 1 of Sexton's testimony. More to come.

THE COURT: We will take a short recess. Then we will hear the Government's first witness.
(Whereupon, at 3:57 p.m., a short recess was taken.)
THE COURT: Call your first witness.
MR. MARKHAM: The United States calls Mrs. Elizabeth Sexton. Whereupon:
ELIZABETH SEXTON was called as a witness in behalf of the Government, and having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
MR. MARKHAM: Your Honor, I will be asking her about various exhibits. May the Marshal place these in front of her in a stack?
THE COURT: Yes, sir,
MR. MARKHAM: Thank you.
THE COURT: Can you give defense counsel the exhibit numbers or have you already? MR. MARKHAM: Your Honor, they have the exhibit in front of them. I will be asking her about the Exhibit Series 1, 1-A through 1-W, which are in the first part of the first book which we provided to them.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. MARKHAM:
Q Would you tell the jury your full name, please.
A Elizabeth A. Sexton
Q And -- just one moment until we get the acoustics.
A Thank you.
Q Where do you live, Mrs. Sexton?
A I live in Connecticut, Town of Suffield.
Q How long have you lived there?
A Twelve or 13 years.
Q Mrs. Sexton, have you ever lent money to anyone?
A Yes , I have.
Q To whom?
A I have lent it to CDI.
Q What is CDI?
A Caucus Distributors, Incorporated.
107
Q Who asked you to lend money to them?
A Several of the members of that group, but the one that got through to me was X Q Have you ever seen X personally?
A Yes, I have.
Q Where did you first see her?
A In my home.
Q Do you see her here in the courtroom today?
A Yes.
Q Would you point out where you see her?
MR. WILLIAMS: Your Honor, we have no objection. The witness can identify my client, X .
THE. COURT: This thing of going through with the witnesses identifying defendants and asking them let the record show them, unless there is some issue o£ identification, I won't require that of the Government. MR. MARKHAM: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: If the defendants want to make an issue of whether they recognize somebody, that's fine. Otherwise, we don't need to go through that.
MR. MARKHAM: Yes, Your Honor. BY MR. MARKHAM: Q How much money did you lend Caucus at the request of X?
A In total, $112,800.
108
Q How much of that were you repaid?
A None.
Q May I ask you, Ma'am, to turn to Exhibit 1-A. There are two pages in that folder, are there not? Can I ask you to turn to the second of two pages.
A Yes.
MR. WILLIAMS: Your Honor, I object, unless I can see the original. All I have is a xerox copy. I have never seen the original of this document.
MR. MARKHAM: Your Honor, the original was filed a week ago pursuant to your order and has been in the courtroom from 9:00 to 5:00 pursuant to your instructions.
THE COURT; I am not going to require that each of you be shown not only a copy but also the originals. BY MR. MARKHAM:
Q What is the second page of Exhibit 1-A? Have you seen it before?
A Yes, I have.
Q When did you see it?
A I saw it when I wrote it. It's a check.
Q For how much?
A $5,000.
Q Payable to whom?
A CDI.
Q Did you write out that check?
109
A Yes, I did.
Q After you wrote it out, what did you do with it?
A It was picked up by a runner of CDI.
Q When?
A That same evening.
Q Do you remember the date?
A February 22nd, 1985.
Q And prior to your writing out that check, did you have a discussion with X?
A Yes, I did.
Q Do you remember what she said to you in that discussion?
A She asked for this loan. It was to be a loan, and she asked for it because I was interested in helping with the promotion of their book, Dope, Incorporated.
Q And did you and discuss when you would be paid back?
A Yes.
Q What did she say about when you would be paid back for this loan? A In one year.
Q And after you wrote out that check, did you receive anything back from Caucus Distributors? A I received a promissory note.
Q Take a look at Exhibit 1-A. What is that?
110
A It's a promissory note. Q
For how much? A Made out to me for $5,000, signed by X. Q And does that promissory note indicate when you would be repaid this $5,000?
A It says payable as follows: one year.
Q One year from when?
A From the date that's above.
Q What's that date?
A February -- this is a copy, and it's difficult to read. It's February, 198 5.
MR. MARKHAM: Your Honor, I would offer 1-A and 1-B into evidence. THE COURT; They will be received in evidence. MR. MARKHAM: I'm sorry. It's just 1-A, page 1 and 1-A, page 2. I apologize. (Government's Exhibit 1-A was received in evidence.) BY MR. MARKHAM:
Q I would ask you to put 1-A aside, please, and turn to 1-B.
Now, after you lent the $5,000 that you have just testified about, did you have additional conversations with X? \\ A Yes.
Ill
Q And in the conversations that you had after lending the $5,000, what did you and she discuss?
A We discussed money. She wanted more money.
Q And what did she ask you for?
A She asked for as much money always as I could get; and she asked if I didn't have any investments that were coming due, investments that I could turn into cash, and there did happen to be another one of $5,000 coming up; and I was very interested in educating, helping to educate this country in the problem of drugs. And that's what this book was about. All of this money was to be, to get the book published. That was Dope, Inc.
Q And did you agree to lend her more money?
A Yes, I did.
Q Would you tell the jury what is in Exhibit 1-B, pages 1 and 2.
A It's a check made out to CDI, February 26th, 1985, for $5,000. Q Whose check is it? Whose check is it? A It's a check I wrote. My signature is on it. Q Did you give that to someone after you wrote it out? A Yes. A runner came and got it at my house. Q What else is there in the folder, which is Exhibit 1-B"?
A This is a promissory note, written to me, February
112
23rd, 1985, signed by X and payable in one year from the date that's written above here, February 22nd, 1985.
MR. MARKHAM: I would offer 1-B into evidence at this time, Your Honor.
THE COURT: It will be received in evidence. (Government's Exhibit 1-B was received in evidence.) BY MR. MARKHAM:
Q Now, did you and X ever discuss the likelihood of your being repaid on these two loans which are now in evidence, these two $5,000 loans? A She assured me that I would be repaid. Q Did she make any further assurances to you about how safe your money was invested with her?
MR. 'WILLIAMS: Your Honor, objection. He is leading the witness. THE COURT: Objection overruled. BY MR. MARKHAM: Q Did she make any further assurances to you as to how safe your money was? A X assured me that my money was safer with CDI than in my bank or in any of my investments.
Q Did she indicated to you that there was anything that might happen to Mr. LaRouche or anyone else that would
113
prevent you from being repaid?
A Never.
MR. WILLIAMS: Your Honor, I would object again, as leading the witness, suggesting the answer to the witness he wants.
THE COURT: Objection overruled. BY MR. MARKHAM; Q Where did the money come from that resulted in the two $5,000 loans that we talked about so far'.
A It came from money my husband had left me to live on. Q Did you explain — did you ever discuss with X
where the money came from?
A Yes, I did.
Q What did you tell X about where this money came from?
A I told her that it was money that my husband had left me. It was what I considered by working capital. It was the money that I invested and lived on, on the returns from it. I also had told her that I needed to help ray daughter and three grandchildren, because she is a single parent and needed help.
Q After you told her these things, what did she say to you? MR. WILLIAMS: Your Honor, I object. This
114
conversation has no time. It's a general conversation that they are discussing here on the stand. They have not pinpointed the time.
MR. MARKHAM: I will withdraw that and ask another question, Your Honor. BY MR. MARKHAM:
Q How many times did you tell X that you wanted this money to support yourself and to help your relatives?
MR. WILLIAMS: Objection, Your Honor. That doesn't cure my objection. I am talking about a specific conversation.
THE COURT: Objection overruled. BY MR, MARKHAM:
Q How many times did you tell X that you wanted this money to help your family and to live off of? A I don't remember how many times I told her, but she certainly knew that I could not afford to live without it.
MR. REILLY: Your Honor, objection. BY MR. MARKHAM: Q Why do you say she certainly —
THE COURT; Wait just a minute. When there is an objection, don't ask any more questions until it's ruled on.
This is Mr. — ,1 realize this is a conspiracy count here, but I think this ought to be Mr. Williams' witness
115
If he doesn't adequately express your objection, you can tell him. MR. WILLIAMS: Your Honor, she as I understood her testimony testified as to what Mrs. X or knew. She can testify to what the conversation was but not what she knew.
THE COURT: I think that's correct. The objection was that we didn't pin these conversations down in time. I think that's a valid objection. You haven't cured it yet. MR. MARKHAM: Yes, Your Honor.
MR. WILLIAMS: Your Honor, could I have that stricken, that last answer about what she knew?
THE COURT: Yes.
Objection sustained to it, and it will be stricken. BY MR. MARKHAM:
Q Mrs. Sexton, do you remember approximately when it was that you had discussions with X about what you were going to use this money for?
A X talked to me nearly every day, and we spoke in a very friendly terms. She knew a lot about me, and I learned a lot about X. She knew — no -- I'm not supposed to say that —\\ THE COURT: The question is when, not what she knew What did you talk to her? THE WITNESS: I talked to her in January, February,
116
March, April, May, June and all that year. BY MR. MARKHAM:
Q What year?
A 1985.
Q And during the time period of January to June, 1985, did you ever tell what this money was going to be used for by you?
MR. WILLIAMS: Your Honor, I object. January to June of 19S5 is a six-month period now. I object to that kind of —
THE COURT: Objection overruled.
MR. MARKHAM: May the witness answer, Your Honor? THE COURT: Yes. BY MR. MARKHAM:
Q Between January and June of 1985, did you tell X

04-17-2008, 12:06 AM

xlcr4life

Quote:
Originally Posted by poe
Looks like yet another example of the Hypothosis of the Hired Hypothosis.

Whoa! Looks like we have a great catch phrase to use.
Great line as there is truth in the comedy as the way we worked is to first get the final product and then use the factoids to make it plausible.
The timeframe for the incident mentioned earlier involving a minor appears to be when we were already established in Leesburg. This would omit the first MLK day march. The clues lead to when we were pretty established in Leesburg and were bussing in kids for various conferences.
Gerry Rose was by this time out of Chicago, so we can add him to the list of leaders such as Nancy and Tony Papert who may know more of what happened.
If you were in Leesburg at the time, think about how someone you know may have disappeared for a while and cover stories talked about by people to explain some type of emergency expense.
In the Bevel case , the facts indicate that Sweetwater was lost, along with other properties by the time his daughter was at our camps. These camps had a rotating location after the loss so putting an exact date and place will not be easy.
In any case, eventually, everything gets smoked out. The daughter , according to the press reports plans to write about her life with Bevel. Over time we will find more former members tuning in and offering their glimpse of what was going on at the time and more clues about what happened in DC. So far, nothing out of the ordinary about her has appeared when she was in our summer camps.
The bottom line is that the more you find out about the Bizarro world, the more you have to find out since more people end up being harmed in so many ways.

LocalGreek, give me a day or so to answer your questions the best I can. That is something which could be used elsewhere for others to read.

In rereading Lyn's Klu Klux Klown words about Obama, I wonder if the many African Americans whom the cult calls up ever read what happens to you if you do not agree with a Krazed Kult of Kooks? Like Parren Mitchell of Baltimore did many years ago when we crossed paths.
""His outfit smacks of fascism to me," Rep. Parren J. Mitchell (D-Md.) said in a statement introduced in the libel case. Mitchell said in an interview that LaRouche supporters tried to break up his political gatherings in Baltimore and distributed literature calling him a drug dealer and a "house nigger." Mitchell said he received several anonymous telephone calls, including one death threat.
"I knew it was them because I recognized some of their voices," Mitchell said. He said the harassment ended soon after he pulled a gun on a group of LaRouche supporters gathered outside his Baltimore home."
That comes from the NBC slander case. The hate comes from Debbie Freeman's campaign via this:
http://wlym.com/PDF-SpReps/SPRP24.pdf
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

04-17-2008, 05:03 AM

eaglebeak

Lyn's 'Mail Message' to Ken, Revisited Here, again, is the text of the "mail message" Lyn sent to Ken in November 2004.
Below appear my comments. Emphasis in the message is mine.

22 NOV 2004 22:59:62
From: PGM::IF_
To: @DIS:NC, WIE, HSE
CC: IF_
Subj: LaR msg to Ken
TO: @DIS:NEC, WIE, HSE
FROM:LAR "Lyndon H. LaRouche, Jr."
CC: HZL
SUBJ: MSG TO KEN KRONBERG
November 22, 2004 (9:31 pm) EST
As I have indicated, I am working at top speed and long hours on my principal responsibility, work which, among other things, will decide whether or not your business continues to exist much longer. Look back to the days of the Gus and Andy Show, and the repetition of that same kind of insanity in trans-Atlantic management during the time I was either imprisoned, or under restraint which prevented me from managing any aspect of business affairs. During both periods, the prevalent doctrine of mis-management was centered upon the delusion, that the secret of the survival of out (sic) political association would be "the businesses." Over the decade 1989-2000, this trend in thinking and practice deteriorated (partly as a result of allowing the organization to be controlled in a large degree by prevalent, Uriah Heep-like submission to the openly anti-Semitic fascist (actually Francoist Nazi) Fernando Quijano and accomplices of his such as finance faker Linda de Hoyos.)
That insanity entered a clearly terminal phase during 1997-1998, under the influence of an aggravated bit of insanity expressed in such variants on an Enron mentality as the Winstar psychosis and the un-Wise gamble by PMR, which wrecked us to a degree from which we have not yet fully recovered to the present day. Had I not become freed to exercise a limited, but increased role in management, beginning mid-2000, the entire international associations, businesses and all, would have vanished by about 2001, certainly long before now. Nonetheless, the legacy of the delusion that "it is the businesses than (sic) ensure our survival," persists, a delusion widespread still among all but a tiny fraction of even own (sic) leaders, from that "Baby Boomer" generation, under sixty-three years of age, which is psycho-sexually disabled, almost to a man or woman alike, when it comes to matters of real business matters. The mismanagement mess, including that psychopathological sinkhole of personal "comfort zone" sophistries, with which I am dealing here, is a (sic) both (sic) a product of the effects of that over past decades.
The source of the generation of all the potential net income actually earned by any part of a combination of business and other entities involved is my kind of politics, nothing else. The challenge is to ensure that that is the politics which controls our association's policies, and that that kind of politics is controlling over what we do which has direct, or direct economy impact on our association as a whole. With these kinds of captains and generals, no commander and chief (sic) would ever share the responsibility for policy-shaping under conditions of warfare, and we are, presently, indeed, at war.
The world has now entered the greatest depression you have ever imagined. Under these circumstances, your firm has, technically, no technical right to live, except it has a crucial margin of income which it earns by performing relevant kinds of essential services for what I am doing politically, that in my political way. The success of what I do, and the priorities I emphasize to that end, are the only existing road to survival. Unless I can force an expansion of our specifically political, "non-business" outreach, there is no hope for your firm.
That is not done by selling literature, or the like: it is by delivering ideas which are widely needed by most of the population, but available from virtually no other source, the kind of ideas I produce, not mere subscriptions to publications with "interesting content." It is the political equivalent of scientific creativity, not selling product, which is the root of any possible success in this matter, under present conditions.
I am assuming leadership responsibilities for getting through increasingly dangerous rapids, which virtually all of my associates but (sic) very few, including you, are incompetent, intellectually and emotionally to judge. This is not simply internal management; it is political strategy, to which management must be always fully subordinated.
I am loaded to the hilt, not merely with routine, but to supply the kind of thinking which virtually no one I know here, or aboard, can match. I must conserve my energies and keep a clear head.
Follow the lead, and learn to keep your nose clean, as you have not always done so in the past. What has to be done, will be done, and I now have an inner team which is capable of doing that about as well as anyone might expect. Rely on cooperation with that team; you need their counsel, urgently.
30-30-30
Comments:
1. This whole, elaborate, crazy, and abusive message was all devised as an excuse for refusing to meet with Ken, as Ken explained to me and others at the time.
2. Lyn has his dates wrong in his reference to various insanities attributed to 1997-1998. The "un-Wise gamble" by PMR is a garbled reference to the fact that in 2001, PMR moved into new, larger, and more expensive offices, even though they had just lost the lion's share of the contract with their biggest client, Wise (or Weiss?) Financial. Elsewhere Lyn confusedly refers to this as an investment which bankrupted the organization. What he really means is that when Wise began cutting its printing, and therefore the level of payment to PMR, that screwed the org because it implied the org would have to actually pay for some portion of its printing.
3. The reference to "keep your nose clean, as you have not always done so in the past," is a gratuitous and totally dishonest reference to Ken's supposed duplicity in, variously, scamming or bankrupting the organization by seeking to have it pay more of its gigantic tab after Wise started to pull back.
4. The "inner team" Ken was supposed to lean on for "counsel" was the Three Stooges Plus One: Jeff, Gerry, Nancy, and Dennis Small. None of these people did a thing for Ken then or later. Or ever. You could say they had his blood on their hands, along with their demented guru.
5. Bottom line: Lyn, cowardly as ever, won't meet with Ken when PMR is in desperate straits—and this is in 2004, mind you, when, according to the material you will read below, Ken was doing exactly what Lyn wanted. As a matter of fact, what Lyn wanted was the determining factor in bankrupting and destroying PMR.

04-17-2008, 05:08 AM

eaglebeak

Into the Abyss A day or so ago, I posted the first part of Lyn's frightful "dialogue" with the LYM of this past Saturday. Lyn's opening remarks, distinguished for vicious attacks on all and sundry, and a particularly revolting, racist diatribe against Barack Obama, appeared as the briefing lead of the Morning Briefing for Sunday, April 13.
What is described in yesterday's "Operations Bulletin" as "the first 2/3" of the discussion that followed those opening remarks, appeared in the Ops Bulletin of the Morning Briefing for Monday, April 14.
It's all pretty much violent, pornographic, and free-associational bilge, but a few things stand out, and that's what I'm posting here.
Lyn starts out by attacking former members Steve Bardwell and Dave Goldman, with his toadies "GMR" (that would be Gerry Rose) and "AP" (that, as you all know, is Tony Papert), piping up to attack Carol. Because this is all so germane to the concerns of the LYM, I have no doubt.
Then we get (emphases all mine):
LAROUCHE: Well, it was also a part of fear. Remember, there was a condition of great fear. And therefore, there was a fear to try to retreat into something, as opposed to what we'd been doing earlier. So it was a gutlessness—fear. And opportunism. The whole business.
And Fernando running around—the intellectual activity died. And in essence, never came back.
Then the Winstar operation, which was a killer. The whole Winstar was a complete fraud! And people who got involved in it, were corrupted by it…. [Watch out, Michele and Zeke. Sooner or later, he'll come after you.]
And they had this thing came up, "Oh Lyn is wrong! We're gonna get money! We're gonna get money!"… They all became corrupted—I was wrong, I was wrong on this. There's money out there. We're doing the wrong thing. And they all—that's what—
Of course, you know the case of Molly. Molly, of course, was a government agent. When she came under pressure, she became a fraudulent witness for the government. And she was with them, all the way through. She was really an agent against the organization inside, and still is! Some people are still defending her. And they're corrupted. They probably never will come back to full mental and moral integrity, as a result of this.
But anyway, that's the point, the point is: That you have to get at this question of dynamics. You have to get at this conception of the universe. And we struggled with this—we actually made major achievements. If you look back, and some of us remember what we did, we did major things internationally, we changed the world. For example, our work on the Dope, Inc., this terrified the British Empire.
So that's…anyway….
But we've lost a lot of it, and the important thing is to realize, to emphasize the loss, and the fact we have a kind of living dead phenomenon around Leesburg and other locations in the organization; it's important to emphasize this, because by emphasizing that this is the problem, you can then combat it as a problem. You can recognize, we have some members who are sick. Mentally ill, and they have these kinds of beliefs. So, okay, we're caring for the living ill, our mentally ill people, in the proper way [ah, the Basement, no doubt], but we're not going to submit to their mental illness. And the problem is, the submission to the mental illness among the Boomers, is what produced this problem round the question of the slugs, in terms of the website. [Most likely a reference to the phenomenon, noticed by most Factnet posters, that the LPAC website had basically died, with no new postings.]
Because the youth did not want to fight strong, harsh attacks from the Boomers. And the tendency was to avoid that, by ducking the issue, by going around it. And then trying to think of things that were acceptable, reduced what could be produced to a very small quantity. And then, realizing that the quantity was small, then you would force the issue, by trying to make something out of nothing. And that's what happened to the site…..
You've got a situation now, up here in Purcellville [where the LYM got moved], with the office here in Purcellville, and the Basement operation here, tied to this faculty conception, which we've got going—I don't know how well it's going, but the conception is right. And by that (sic) way, we can get an internal dialogue, within the organization, and make the dialogue the center of the organization, intellectually. That's the only way it's going to work. You can't have this sense of Baby-Boomer top-down approach. Therese are the lower realms of the organization, the decisions are made at a higher level. I'm the higher level. But we have a number of people in the organization, who are in the leadership, and have been. Like the case of Harley and the case of others. On certain things, Debbie is absolutely the most qualified authority—when she's not having her jaw repaired, surgically (she's got some teeth problems, fairly extensive problems).
So we have people who are actually competent [don't kid yourself], when you put them together as a team, they are actually capable of making decisions and making initiatives, as most of us know. The problem is, when you get down in the Editorial department [look out, Nancy, here it comes again], and get into the Leesburg office, then you get into the snake's nest. You know, in which many considerations and lobbying and so forth all come into play. And you get the same thing in some of the regions. You've got snakes in us out there….
JS [Jeff Steinberg]: I think it's also a continuation of the massive British psychological operations that targeted the Clinton Presidency in '98, '97-'98—and never really stopped. So that you've got a pervasive idea, especially after Pelosi and Reid completely sabotaged and screwed up any kind of action from the Congress on the impeachment, on the oil thing—
LAROUCHE: It was me!
JS: I know.
LAROUCHE: It was just me!
JS: Sure.
[Don't you just love Jeff's all-out pandering? Even when Lyn bursts into a totally unrelated remark to squeal "it was me!," Jeff, the poster boy for cognitive dissonance, doesn't miss a beat.]
LAROUCHE: I took us into the Democratic Convention, in force. We produced the material, over their objections, and others' objections. Every effort to sabotage this was done. Under the Molly-coddlers' influence. Hmm? "There should be no more election campaigns. Cut it down, shut it down, we're trying to save money, now." [This is a reference to Nancy Spannaus—as we saw previously in Lyn's July 2006 memo attacking Ed, which I posted recently, in which Ken was said to have "mollyfied" Nancy, Lyn is convinced that Nancy Spannaus was, and maybe still is, secretly run by Molly Kronberg. And Lyn has been attacking Nancy Spannaus since July 2004 for sabotaging a literature shipment to Boston during the Convention—except she never did it, and the shipment was never sabotaged, and various people have told Lyn that—but, as in the Case of Ed and the Purloined Headline, Lyn needs to attack Nancy, so this occurrence that never occurred has assumed the status of Holy Writ in the org.] What we did, we made an intervention—I made an intervention, that would work, because I knew the situation. I knew what it would take, we'd have to have 100 youth and so forth, and music and so forth, there—and the material. Printed material delivered. Everything was done to prevent all those things from happening. We rammed it through, a few of us. And they were screaming—"won't somebody listen to reason, won't somebody listen to reason. We can't afford this, we're not going to do this, we can't do this, we mustn't do this," hmm?
All right, what this did was: As a result of that, not only did we succeed in our intervention, but we provided an element of leadership {inside} the Democratic Party as a process, which then, when I reacted to the election result, the way I did, we then got control of the impetus of the Democratic Party for the year 2005. We did it. It was my operation. Against the objections of the Baby-Boomers, every one of them…. They did everything possible to sabotage it. They couldn't quite get it through, because of Debbie, because of Harley and so forth, and a few other things like that. And because Ken cooperated. Not Molly's crowd, but Ken did. Ken did the work. When he understood what I wanted done, {he did it}! When they were trying to prevent the things from being to Boston (sic), he did it! That's why he committed suicide, because his wife was on the other side, and he thought the situation was hopeless.

So the point is: We have been effective! When we do what we know how to do. The problem is is (sic), not only that we have the enemy on us, the problem is in our own organization [it always is, always has been. The conflation of Inside and Outside that Ken Kronberg pointed to so long ago as a characteristic of Lyn's mythical thinking: the Enemy Within and the Enemy Without], efforts which are valid are killed or neutralized by dragging them down to mediocrities. Like now! Like the funding of the LPAC: The Molly-coddlers are doing everything possible to slow down the funding of LPAC. [Not only did Molly orchestrate the Alexandria trial and send Lyn to prison; not only did she run Nancy Spannaus and almost sabotage the 2004 Presidential campaign, but now she's lousing up the fundraising. And she's not even around! But her work lives on] Hmm? Which is the driver. You want to raise money for the entire organization, turn LPAC loose: That's how you'll raise money. So, they are saying, "Don't try to raise money, don't spend it."
FEMALE: [laughs] Budget-crats.
LAROUCHE: Yeah, but it's worse than that. The Molly-coddler influence doesn't like it, others don't like it, don't do it. We have a right. We have to insist you don't do it. We're going to do it {our} way—and we'll sabotage any effort on your way, to do it your way. We will tell the sales team to do the following… and present things, not this way, saying there's an "also-ran," the way they're doing on the question of an also-ran, of "associates of LaRouche, " instead of LPAC. Hmm? Which is a fraudulent representation of reality. Reality is….
They don't raise LPAC money. That's what their thing is. "Don't put the LPAC thing in the sales operation. Because we need money for other things. You have to balance these things." And that's how we get screwed. [What Lyn is "talking about" here is that it's harder to "deploy" LPAC money, being regulated by the FEC as it is, than it would be to deploy what used to be called "infrastructure money"—EIR, etc. Sometimes phone teams and regions don't want to raise all LPAC, because it all has to go to the National Center. They have to pay for "infrastructure." Hence the tension.]
… We don't get pamphlets and leaflets! [Shoulda thought of that before you drove your printer to suicide, Lyn. You know, the guy who did what you wanted in 2004—that is, when he wasn't running a scam on the organization and bankrupting it.] We don't get things out, for this reason! Because of this stupidity on the sales problem! Huh? We put up with it! And it's bull****! It's fraud!
And therefore, the things that work, that generate support, we are crippled on doing, in order to sustain things that are simply routine, which we would discard if necessary. Huh? We'd throw them overboard, if we had to saving (sic) the living citizens. Some things we would sacrifice, as in warfare. Cooks and bottlewashers to the front: Get your rifles, get out there. And we don't do that. And the time where we have the forces available, to break through in an area, an area of opportunity for us—look at our mobilization! We do mobilizations were (sic) are very effective. But if they go out there without any significant literature—what're you doing!? You're demoralizing the organization, what're you doing? [Shoulda thought of that earlier, Lyn.]

And therefore, this pettiness, this small-mindedness, and stupidity gets in the way: We know how to do things. I know how to do things. [Name one.] Flank 'em! Flank 'em! Don't come up and say, "This is our tradition." The minute somebody says tradition, I say, "Well, you go see your psychiatrist. That's your problem, that tradition. Get rid of that dammed tradition! [laughter] It's killing you—and killing us."
No, that's the point. We have done things, how? We run flanking operations. We don't run, you know, "this is our tradition." Whenever someone says "this is our tradition"—you just the war. [ I think he means "just lost the war"—but really, who knows?]
MALE: I have a question, every week, we come to these meetings, and there's similar considerations that come up. And I just wondered, during the week, does anybody talk to the people that you're bringing up about these things?...
LAROUCHE: All the time. All the time.
MALE: So the discussions happen.
LAROUCHE: They say, "f**k you." [laughs] It's that simple. [Wow, some exemplary leadership you're wielding there, General.]
MALE: Oh. 'Cause you're saying…
LAROUCHE: I'm saying people shouldn't pay attention to them when they do that. Don't be restricted. We have a policy, it's the official policy of the organization. Go with the policy of the organization. {Forget} what these foot-draggers do! Don't worry about… The Editorial department's totally screwed up. They're not a standard of anything. They screw anything up they can. By changing the order, and by farming out projects to people who can't write competently. It's an idea of a potpourri [unctuous] "We're publishing a publication [no, you're not] … of ideas! Different ideas! Different things for different people."
WE'RE IN A WAR TO SAVE CIVILIZATON. We're in a war to keep this thing together. We're trying to save civilization. There's nothing out there….
[brief interlude while LYM members try to discuss something more like politics. One youth says wistfully, "We should probably have some material, that once we get the response, people can then get rapidly developed with the material." Good luck, kid.]
LAROUCHE: Well, you've got another phenomenon, if you look at the organization as a whole. As Gerry can tell you, the operation of the phone teams, stinks. Every area is a crisis area…. The Boomer side is very poor-performing on this stuff. And the sales performance from the phone team {stinks}! Because of the Boomer factor….
To the extent the Boomers have control over the process, they work in an opposite direction, {and it doesn't work!} It's a failure, politically. That's what the problem is. The phone teams are inundated by the fact (sic) that they are {determined to fail}! Hmm? Because they won't {do} what I do. They say, they have "their way" of doing things. And they're not inspired—yeah, you got one or two people here and there who are inspired. But generally, they're not inspired. They're not inspired to save the country! They're not patriots—they're opportunists. [Sure. Opportunists would always seek out a tiny no-name cult to be trapped in.]
It's a Boomer problem, it's opportunism. It's a result of the demoralization, when the Baby-Boomer generation, those who are not crooked, dirty and insane, who don't understand, "well, we're losing." Therefore, the guys who are the ****heads, we despise, are now running all the key operations. Therefore, we have to learn to live with them. We have to learn to live with their standard. And that's what (sic) wrong with the Boomer part of the organization. They've given up the fight! That is, the social fight. They have {adapted} to the whores, rather than condemning them. And that's what happens.
See it's a problem. You look at people's social life. People have families. Everybody knows about families, huh? [giggling] [Okay—let's appreciate this. The transcriber of this bilge has inserted the comment "giggling" to characterize Lyn's behavior. It is the most effective possible way of communicating that the guy is 10 pounds of crazy in a five-pound bag, and the transcriber, whose initials are probably KRN, doesn't even realize it. Oy.] There're families you love, and families you wish you could change. And people have a "family life." Their internal life is largely involved with their family life. Their old friends, their families, and so forth, from youth, and whatnot. [Lyn's hatred of normality has never been more obvious. After all, HE didn't have childhood friends, he hated his family, and he created a machine for infant sacrifice.] And our selection of that, selection of old friends, selection of family members, becomes the audiences that censors what you do. They put pressure on you. They put pressure on your identity. [Not like the freedom to be yourself that you enjoy in the Labor Committee, no sir.] "But you are… Look, we know you! You are really this. his is what you should stand for. This is what {we} all think. {What's wrong with you, that you don't think like this?}" Didn't you ever hear that song? That's the family pressure.
So, you don't run an organization, ignorant of the family pressure that's coming on the members of that organization. And the point is, if you're going to provide leadership, it means that you have to stand up with independence, and exert leadership as independent leadership. It can not be censored. You're leading. [Of course, heaven help you if you stand up independently and independently say, "Hey, Lyn, screw you. I'm not going to your meeting. I'm going to visit my family." You'll find the org isn't quite as taken with independent, inner-directed, sovereign selves as it said it was.] ….
That's exactly the way it works. And we should say so! The only way to kill the process is by making people aware of it, conscious of it. This is shameful behavior.
But it goes with family. And you find people get older, for example, phone teams, they become much more "family-oriented." And "old friends-oriented." And their commitment to changing society is much diminished. They're trying to prove themselves to their old friends and family. And that's the problem.
[Omitted here: Lyn's tedious, self-serving "reminiscence" about his wartime "experience"—although from what I've heard, it was mostly emptying bedpans. He was a hospital orderly. And never saw combat.]
[Also omitted: lengthy musings on death, leadership, blah blah. Recalls the famous Hitler "table talk." Only of course, Hitler got into power. Lyn got into Purcellville.]
Always go to the top. Never got to the details, don't take deductive details. [Like that old joke: "Don't confuse me with the facts."] Always hit them behind the back of the head [not ON the back of the head, mind you, but BEHIND it. Confuses them that way.] They think you're coming to discuss biofuels, hit 'em from behind, back of the neck. They'll know what you're talking about. When they feel that sensation, then, their propensity to bull**** is suddenly – [laughter] shot.
[pauses] Dynamics. The main thing we have to learn, dynamics. We're on the very of doing the Riemann work: Dynamics. Dynamics. Then all mysteries are resolved. [scattered laughter].
[Discussion of LPAC website. Discussion of "reorganizing" "intelligence."]
JS [Jeff Steinberg]:… We reconstituted all of the intelligence sectors—
LAROUCHE: Or some of them.
JS: But I mean, insofar as they exist.
AP [Tony Papert]: All we could. All we could now, anyway…. We still have the problem of, you know, we have the empty office many days, nobody there…. [Say it ain't so! But alas, it is so. Forever so.] So, that's a problem. Which as Lyn kept saying, we've got to overcome. We're working at it, but it's a big problem….
[Discussion of EIR, and how someone came up to someone in Sterling, Virginia and said something about EIR and how great it was. Or something.]
MALE: … It seems like EIR isn't really getting printed that much. [Good Lord! How did THAT happen?] If they're going to an online publication of EIR, why don't we upgrade the LLPAC site to what EIR's supposed to be?
LAROUCHE: … You realize that you're the organization, the Editorial department has no conception of leadership. It's an anti-leadership. [Another one on the chin for Nancy and her band of three? Or four?] … And the Editorial department is really controlling it and sabotaging everything. [Yeah, and I'm Mickey Mouse.] … And the Editorial department is the most backward part of the organization, right now [time and again].

Comments:
1. Where to begin?
How about by saying that what we have here now is a case of senile dementia, compounding all the other well-known psychological problems afflicting LaRouche since any of us has known him?
How about saying that what is unleashed here is the enraged, unthinking id, the solipsist (speaking philosophically), the id-iot, speaking more directly?
An unbridled id meandering from semi-thought to demi-thought, from explosion of rage to explosion of rage? Making things up as he (or it) goes along?
Someone who is still a member in good standing (as far as I know), a former friend of Ken and Molly Kronberg's who was, however, terrified to "get in trouble" with Lyn, often used to compare Lyn to King Lear—the dementia, the unreason, the unreasoning demand for adulation.
Well, I will not name this individual, but I do say to him/her: You were righter than you knew.
2. Ken Kronberg, fresh from being the target of the November 2004 LaRouche "mail message" that I have just reprinted above—fresh from being accused by Lyn repeatedly, including in Part I of this rant, posted a few days ago, of having bankrupted the organization—Ken Kronberg has suddenly emerged, again, as one of the Good Guys.
Lyn just doesn't know quite what to do with Ken. He'd love to be able to attack him, as he did mercilessly during Ken's life, but he doesn't quite dare. Or not all the time. Especially not around the anniversary of his death, and especially not with all those Molly-coddlers out there somewhere. So sometimes he kicks, and sometimes he fawns.
3. We have a new narrative for the Ken and Molly story. It used to be that Ken killed himself in 2007 because in 2004, Molly gave money to that fascist Bush.
Now, it's that Ken killed himself in 2007 (coincidentally on the day that a Papert-LaRouche briefing excoriated him and advised suicide; coincidentally in the week that his two companies were finally driven into bankruptcy by LHL) because before the Alexandria trial in 1988—fully 19 years before—Molly Kronberg had become a government agent.
Somehow, though, the situation didn't become hopeless till 2007.
Question: If it was Molly's agentry that did it, why did Ken wait 19 years?
Question: If it was Molly's agentry, why didn't Ken just leave her?
Question: If Molly was an agent for 19 years, why didn't Lyn say so before now? As a matter of fact, why hasn't the org formally expelled her, even now?
Question: If Molly Kronberg was an agent in 1988, why didn't anyone notice it/mention it/worry about it through all those intervening years? Why wasn't she denounced after her "fraudulent testimony" railroaded Lyn into prison?
Question: If it was government pressure that made Molly an agent in 1988, what was the pressure? That she wouldn't be tried in New York? Couldn't have been that. That she wouldn't be convicted in New York? Not that, either. If Molly's end of the deal was her Alexandria testimony, what was the government's end?
Here's a thought. Let's get Barbara Boyd to put Molly's testimony at Lyn's trial in the briefing, so we can see for ourselves. While she's at it, maybe Barbara could put Lyn's testimony at Molly's trial in the briefing too, so we can compare what they said about those Franklin House checks to Lyn that have him so lathered up.
Question: What was it that Nancy Spannaus did in 2004 vis-à-vis the Democratic convention that has had Lyn foaming at the mouth ever since? (Answer: Nothing. Nothing at all. Lyn just never knows what's going on around him, plus he loves to whip her.)
Question: If Ken was so loyal to Lyn, and so distraught over Molly's agentry, why did Lyn imply in a July 2006 memo (which I recently posted) that Ed, Nancy, Ken, and Molly were in cahoots against him ("Ken's mollyfication of Nancy")? Was Ken a Good Guy or a Bad Guy? Did he scam the organization or do Lyn's bidding? Or are we still working out the kinks in our story line?
Question: If Ken was so loyal to Lyn, and doing what he wanted in 2004, why did Lyn write Ken that vicious "mail message" posted just above—in November 2004? And why was Lyn's subsequent behavior towards Ken so vile, up to and including on the day of Ken's death?
Question: Will Lyn ever have his fill of beating up Editorial?
And finally: Can you imagine more supine characters than Tony and Gerry, and a more oleaginous yes-man than Jeff?
4. Here's my evaluation, knowing both parties as I do: If Molly were a Government agent, Lyndon LaRouche would be behind bars.

04-17-2008, 07:16 AM

scrimscraw In the Bunker...er, the Basement

Quote:
Originally Posted by eaglebeak
A day or so ago, I posted the first part of Lyn's frightful "dialogue" with the LYM of this past Saturday. Lyn's opening remarks, distinguished for vicious attacks on all and sundry, and a particularly revolting, racist diatribe against Barack Obama, appeared as the briefing lead of the Morning Briefing for Sunday, April 13.
What is described in yesterday's "Operations Bulletin" as "the first 2/3" of the discussion that followed those opening remarks, appeared in the Ops Bulletin of the Morning Briefing for Monday, April 14.

Whew! This really does smack of Der Fuhrer in the Bunker in the final days turning on his associates and unraveling. And it does make me wonder to what degree Factnet board criticism (of the LARpac web content, etc.) has hit home and struck a nerve. I'm just disappointed that I may not get to enjoy further "slugs" by the young Marvel-Comics-to-be author. Those were the best!

04-17-2008, 08:26 AM

shadok

larouche/moon

Quote:
Originally Posted by borisbad
Having been in the org. through most of the 80s, what xlcr writes is mysterious to me in the sense that even rumors of any such occurrences as he is referring to never reached my ears. Let's also remember that Bevel also had links to another cult figure, Rev. Moon, who definitely had weird ideas on sex and marriage and apparently was intimate with many of his followers, so I'm not sure if only LaRouche was connected with the sick stuff that Bevel was involved in with his daughter.

There is an interesting info here http://laroucheplanet.info/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=Cult.JamesBevel :

Quote:
"LaRouche-Bevel campaign" paid, in February and March of 1992, for a series of 11 full-page ads in the Moonie Washington Times. Source: "Meet the Candidates" http://www.etext.org/Politics/LaRouche/larouche.program.03 at etext.org. [...]Strangely, the LaRouche's "Honey-Reverend-Moon" was suddenly over. EIR ran a series of unprecedented attacks against Reverend Moon in October-November 2002. Even more intriguyingly is this "press release" titled ""Is Your Clergyman or Congressman a Moonie Sex-Cultist?" http://www.larouchepub.com/pr/2002/021113moon_lflt.html where it is said: "The dirty money is frequently followed by sexual favors from an army of young women—all brainwashed into Moon's bizarre sexual rituals." Strange accusations, since the Moonies defend chastity, campaign against "free sex" and regard extra-marital affairs as "satanic"!
[...] The Moonies don't do "free sex" (unlike the "Children of God" cult for instance.) But, as it appears now, Rev. Bevel did...

I think this "press release" with such "out of the blue" accusations looks to me more like some at security tried to distance the org. clearly from potential Moon/sex scandals... It suggests that some in the org. were aware of Bevel's daughter situation.
Maybe, as xlcr suggests, there is more.

04-17-2008, 11:46 AM

shadok

"clinton's southern fried fascism" etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by poe
PS
Does anybody out there know anywhere on the Web where I can find a copy of the EIR Report "Bill Clinton's Southern Fried Fascism" ?

I just found this at http://laroucheplanet.info/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=Library.SouthernFriedFascism1
("Southern Fried Fascism Seizes Democratic Party") and also "North Dope Connection Runs From Bush To Clinton" written by J Steinberg at http://laroucheplanet.info/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=Library.BushClinton1
I am sure the Clinton's fans and Hillary would love to read what larouche and Steinberg had to say about Bill :D

04-17-2008, 01:15 PM

eaglebeak

Uh, Oh Jeff, Barbara, Rick Magraw, Helga, and whoever Lyn's other keepers are, may want to seriously consider institutionalization.
Because something tells me Lyn's disgusting outpourings on Obama are going to get around.
I note that Dennis King' site,
http://www.lyndonlarouchewatch.com/larouche-newest-postings.htm,
reproduces the relevant portion from the relevant Morning Briefing.
And I'll bet you anything, this will get around.
Time to go to Plan B, guys. Lock the old boy up before he gets too far off the reservation.
How do you suppose Harold James and Amelia Robinson and the other African-Americans in Lyn's orbit are going to feel?
How do you suppose Dennis Speed feels?
How's Zeke feel about it, Barbara?
Otherwise--
Sorry about the difficulties inherent in reading the Elizabeth Sexton testimony. But her testimony, coupled with the evidence of LaRouche's letters to her--not one but two--first one telling her that if she wanted her money back she should write to Henry Kissinger, because that's who was responsible for the org's inability to pay, and second one saying that Lyn had no control over it (written on legal advice, no doubt)--plus the idiotic mailing Sexton received asking her to sign a document that her loan had been repaid in full--were dynamite testimony in the Alexandria trial.
They put Lyn right in the center of the conspiracy.
No wonder his co-defendants didn't want him on the witness stand.

04-17-2008, 01:57 PM

candor "10 pounds of crazy in a five-pound bag"

HAHAHA - never heard that one before

04-17-2008, 05:41 PM

shadok

1 Attachment(s) Der Untergang des Abscheulicher (Downfall of the Abominable One)

Quote:
Originally Posted by borismaglev
I agree with scrmiscraw totally. Just add the HitlerYouthMovement redeploying around the Bunker for the final defense of Der Fuhrer.:D

Bunker = Basement... yep the analogy isn't far from the reality. Shame there won't be any Nuremberg Trial!

04-17-2008, 08:10 PM

borisbad

Curious who X was. Sexton mentions a woman the NJ office who was transferred to Chicago. Obviously it wasn't Lynne Not up to Speed, maybe Marnie Black (wife of Richard Black).
When I read the testimony it makes me feel quite ashamed in that I had inklings of what was going on even before the trials but of course chose to believe the company line that 1) this was all part of a cointel operation against the org. and that there was a real intent to repay the loans; 2) that people "chose" to forgive the loans or that the money was being put to some use like getting Lyn on TV, or some other cover story. I preferred being in the field, or maybe being on phones simply signing up Fusion, War on Drugs, or NS subs because it gave me some basis for "plausible deniability" as to what was happening with the big money. If a Fusion Sub didn't get sent, a person was only out $20 and in those days there seemed at least to be a real effort to get subs out since that was the only way you could go back to people to ask for more money (if they actually supported the ideas). But seeing how people like Mrs. Sexton were royally screwed so that Helga and Lyn could purchase their dachas and enjoy their Rhinegau makes me nauseous but also like a witting accomplice of what went on since I chose not to inquire that intensely into what was really going on.

04-17-2008, 08:48 PM

poe

Quote:
Originally Posted by shadok
There is an interesting info ->here http://laroucheplanet.info/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=Cult.JamesBevel :
I think this "press release" with such "out of the blue" accusations looks to me more like some at security tried to distance the org. clearly from potential Moon/sex scandals... It suggests that some in the org. were aware of Bevel's daughter situation.
Maybe, as xlcr suggests, there is more.

That's not true. There never was any rapprochement between Moon and LaRouche. The organization was publiclly hostile to the Unification Church before, during, and after their assosciation with Bevel and Lyn's attacks on the Moonies as a sex and blackmail cult in service of the intelligence community date back to the 70's. They also repeatedly exposed Moon as part of the support apparatus for Iran-Contra. The problem is that they just did not take Bevel's assosciation with the Moonies very seriously. They had the same sort of paternalistic racist attitude toward his assosciation with Moon that Chip Berlet displays in his articles about Bevel's associations with both Moon and LaRouche. "Bevel must not know what he's doing." "He is being manipulated and tricked." "We have to explain the truth to him" That was the attitude that LaRouche had toward Bevel's Moon ties, ironiclly the same attitude that many "progressives" had toward Bevel's LaRouche ties. They organization thought that it had organized Bevel away from the Moonies. The thought that he did know what he was doing and that he was a committed part of Moon's operation never occured to them. I was in the organization at the time and I came to the conclusion that he was a Moon contolled agent-provocatuer deployed into the organization in the same way that all the Oliver North Iran-Contra agent-provocatuers exposed in the Boston Trial testimony were deployed into and against the organization. I did try to warn various people about this while I was still in the organization, but it only succeeded in getting me bad-jacketted. It never goes smoothly when you are trying to warn LaRouche or the leadership of an error in judgement, and this was an especially chaotic period. I didn't know everything about Bevel, and did not share all that I did know. What I did share only got me in trouble and if I had shared more it would have got me kicked out even sooner than I was. But the organization was never pro-Moon. They were just too stupid to realize that Bevel was as much a Moonie agent as he was, and too arrogent to listen to anyone who did realize it.

04-17-2008, 10:33 PM

boomersage

There's one distorted and malicious morsel of truth to LHL's recent internal diatribe, and that's where he attacks members of three- and four-decades' standing for remaining in the organization out of habit, not conviction. Stop and think for a moment: these are, or were, our peers. Eons ago, when the blasted mess got underway, it wasn't overtly such a mess, at least not in the manner it long ago became (as someone pointed out here a while back, as of 1973 New Solidarity read like the newspaper of a callow and rambunctious political movement, not a cult rag where every other word was obeisance to the cult leader or declamations of the incipient end of the world). Facing the facts as they've unfolded probably wasn't easy for most people, which is why most of us delayed same. I'd guess that people who haven't managed to do that yet must, with a few exceptions, be wracked by doubts, misgivings, etc., they've supressed umpteen dozens of times. They probably aren't as credulous or naive as the 20-somethings LaRouche is trying to whip into his next and last phalanx of zombified cadres. Many are sticking around because -- well, probably because of a number of reasons, but one of them is probably because they have no blasted idea what else to do, and dread admitting how hopeless and self-defeating the whole thing has been.

04-17-2008, 11:06 PM

candor

I think boomersage is basically right as to why people find it hard to leave:
(1) "they have no blasted idea what else to do," and
(2) they "dread admitting how hopeless and self-defeating the whole thing has been."
As to (1), they also often have nowhere to turn. The longer one has been in, the further one has become from family - and one likely hasn't had any friends outside the organization for an extremely long time. Also, one has no money to make a move. With no money and nowhere to go it is physically impossible to get out.
As to (2), the LaRouchites fear the real world. The real world has many faults and rarely offers the comfort of sure answers which a cult provides.
My advice to any member: just physically get up and leave. NOW. Things may be rough at the beginning: if you have no family or friends, you may have to do a spell around soup kitchens and homeless shelters, but you will be FREE. You are intelligent and will soon get your life together as all of us have. There is in place something of a safety net which will help you get by in the meantime. But no price can placed on FREEDOM.

04-17-2008, 11:12 PM

poe

Same Thing

Quote:
Originally Posted by borismaglev
I'm surprised to hear that you were kicked out. I know of no "expulsions" after the "Bavarians" in 1971-72. Following "Beyond Psycho," expulsions was not LaRouche's style. Even in the latest LaRouche discourse from last Saturday, he makes it clear that he does not intend to "expel" his despised Boomers. LaRouche says about them: "So, okay, we're caring for the living ill, our mentally ill people, in the proper way, but we're not going to submit to their mental illness."
But no hint of expulsions. His preferred method clearly is to push them to the limit where they either quit on their own, or commit suicide or foreverafter grovel and kiss his a$$. I have no idea what benefit he derives from this, but this is clearly his way. Not expulsions. Are you sure you were kicked out?:confused:


Being pushed to the limit where you either quit, commit suicide, or grovel, and being kicked out are two ways of saying the same thing, in my opinion. Perhaps "driven out", would have been a more accurate term than "kicked out". At one point , the NC actually did ask me to leave, but to be fair, I think they expected me to take the grovel option instead. They should have known better. And you are right, Lyn doesn't derive any benefit at all from acting this way. His enemies are the ones who benefit. The biggest member of the Get LaRouche Task-Force is LaRouche.

04-18-2008, 01:51 AM

howie

And there we go. Ladies and Gentlemen, I bring you one of the biggest blogs on the net, wonkette.
http://wonkette.com/381051/lyndon-larouche-obamas-a-monkey-working-for-british-intelligence
In a few days we should be able to chart the course of how this has jumped around the blogosphere by graphing a chart at blogpulse.com
I also mention that this exposure brings more people to a daily briefing where Larouche discusses his internal cult dynamics.
But everyone already knew that, and such.

04-18-2008, 02:12 AM

howie

Posted again in a better spot on this tree. (I hate factnet sometimes for this.):

http://wonkette.com/381051/lyndon-larouche-obamas-a-monkey-working-for-british-intelligence
In a few days we should be able to chart the course of how this has jumped around the blogosphere by graphing a chart at blogpulse.com
I also mention that this exposure brings more people to a daily briefing where Larouche discusses his internal cult dynamics.
But everyone already knew that, and such.

04-18-2008, 03:00 AM

eaglebeak

Oopsy Daisy The Wonkette coverage is great--I'm also told the story of Lyn's racist rant vs. Obama has appeared on the Daily Kos.
Heh heh.
Say, Jeff, ever thought of hiring someone to sew his mouth shut?

04-18-2008, 04:14 AM

eaglebeak

Say... Say, if Ken Kronberg killed himself on April 11 in 2007 because Molly had become a government agent in 1988--why did he bring his lunch to work with him that day?
If it was the overall hopelessness of his situation, being married to a government agent and all, that drove him to his death--why bother to pack lunch?

04-18-2008, 06:49 AM

shadok

Moon

Quote:
Originally Posted by poe
That's not true. There never was any rapprochement between Moon and LaRouche. The organization was publiclly hostile to the Unification Church before, during, and after their association with Bevel and Lyn's attacks on the Moonies as a sex and blackmail cult in service of the intelligence community date back to the 70's.

I was a member when Bevel was associated with us. I don't recall any public attacks against Moon then. Besides we paid 11 pages adverts to Washington Times, which is Moon... Why?
We also used to attack Scientology. YET I was in contact with Scientology not to spy on them but to share info re common enemies and counter-operations, etc...

04-18-2008, 01:45 PM

eaglebeak

Immortality as a Punchline Lyn is always carrying on about immortality--not in a religious way, I need hardly say, but in an obsessive, I-have-to-live-forever-because-I'm-the-Zeitgeist kind of way.
But do you think he really wants immortality as--worse than a perennial Presidential candidate--a perennial punchline?
Because that's what ya got, Lyn:
http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=16020
There's that. There's the Simpsons. There's that marvelous movie Airplane, from the '80s. And that's about all there is.
In a related development, I notice that over on Skull/Bones (http://www.struat.com/election/category/the-larouche-challenge/) my friend (and perennial poster) Rachel Holmes recalls a quip one of our good mutual friends once delivered:
Writes Rachel:
As a good friend of mine once said, "Lyn is his own worst enemy. And that's saying a lot."
The deliverer of that marvelous line occasionally posts right here on Factnet.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
So at the very least, I think we Boomer members and former members can guarantee Lyn a long life ... as a punchline.
Happy Birthday, Ken
In other news, today, April 18, is Ken Kronberg's 60th birthday. Of course, as we all know, by dying on April 11, 2007, he didn't even live to see his 59th.
The broadcast publication of Lyn's disgraceful, racist ravings about Obama are the birthday present all of us offer--the total and complete discrediting of Ken's tormentor.
Take those ravings about Obama, combine them with the ravings about "the Jews" published in Chip Berlet's work on the PRA website (http://www.publiceye.org/larouche/Kronberg.html) and on Dennis King's website (http://lyndonlarouchewatch.org/index.html), and you have a man not morally fit to be admitted to human society.

04-18-2008, 04:10 PM

poe

Moon

Quote:
Originally Posted by shadok
I was a member when Bevel was associated with us. I don't recall any public attacks against Moon then. Besides we paid 11 pages adverts to Washington Times, which is Moon... Why?
We also used to attack Scientology. YET I was in contact with Scientology not to spy on them but to share info re common enemies and counter-operations, etc...
Don't be naive.


Here is a link to a LaRouche attack on Moon from 1997: http://members.tripod.com/~american_almanac/bushgold.htm I know that there were more too, this is just the first one that I was able to find with a quick web search. Yes we did trade info with Scientology, but never with Moon. LaRouche and Moon were always enemies. The ads in the Washinton Times were because we wanted ads in a major DC newspaper. Both major DC papers were owned by enemies of LaRouche. LaRouche had published material linking Washington Post owner Katherine Grahm to the murder of her husband. So which paper was he going to pick? Bevel was a Moon-North-WACL dirty trick deployed to destroy the LaRouche organization while he was in jail, not somebody that LaRouche hired in order to get tight with the Moonies. Part of the problem was that although Helga'a faction were the main ones warning of an intelligence community attempt to take over the organization during this peroid, the Zeppadistas were also the ones who were the most taken in by Bevel.

04-18-2008, 06:21 PM

scrimscraw

lingering kool-aid

Quote:
Originally Posted by poe
Bevel was a Moon-North-WACL dirty trick deployed to destroy the LaRouche organization while he was in jail, not somebody that LaRouche hired in order to get tight with the Moonies. Part of the problem was that although Helga'a faction were the main ones warning of an intelligence community attempt to take over the organization during this peroid, the Zeppadistas were also the ones who were the most taken in by Bevel.

I seriously doubt that anyone - especially conservatives and anti-communists - was deployed to destroy the LaRouche org. The org, over the years, has been too useful as a tool against the left. And if Bevel was so deployed, how was he supposedly going about destroying it? By rehabilitating Lyn's reputation? :rolleyes:

04-18-2008, 07:16 PM

localgreek

I appreciate what Candor writes--encouraging members to just leave. But what is the best way to get a member to just leave? Usually people are married to someone in the cult.
The posts are really interesting for me. And all of the posters are so lucid and intelligent.
How would one go about trying to encourage a family member to just leave. Every time I have spoken to someone in this cult, they sound like wind-up toys. It is impossible to discuss anything. So, how do you encourage someone after three or four decades to leave.
Is there any information about how many people may have left after the passing of Ken and Jerry D.?
Where does Larouche live these days?

04-18-2008, 07:41 PM

candor

localgreek,
The LaRouche organization fundamentally is no different from any of the other cults discussed at factnet.com, except that most of them are successful cults. Perhaps check out the resources that the website offers, including links to cult experts such as Steven Hassan. Generally, though, the more one presses a cult member to leave, the less likely it is that he or she will do so. They are - I was - programmed like a wind-up toy against any such suggestion. What helped me escape into freedom was knowledge about what certain boomer members were up to in manipulating LYMers of the opposite sex as well as learning from this message board the full history of Lyndon LaRouche: his communist past rolling into the years in which he created a cult of personality which culminated in his present, long-lasting fascist period. His recent remarks about our next President, Barack Obama, make clear what everyone should have known all along with his patronizing of Amelia et al., namely his crassly inveterate and vulgarly vituperative racism. Beneath it all, many people in the LaRouche cult do mean well and are intelligent (unlike LaRouche, his wife Helga, Debbie, et al.): I think if those words of LaRouche about Obama are rubbed in their faces, some of the programming may begin to go haywire. Also, LaRouche really has no clearly defined successor, so the whole house of cards is going to come down after he is dead - so better get out now while the gettin's good.

04-18-2008, 08:21 PM

xlcr4life

1 Attachment(s)

Quote:
Originally Posted by eaglebeak
Because that's what ya got, Lyn:
http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=16020

Wow, 250 million dollars of other people's money , an entire lifetime of work and the present LYM (who are getting older and older each day) gets you to be the butt of jokes on blogs and articles all over the globe. This is what is on the comic site.
"FRED VAN LENTE: Jeff has often told me that the only reason he writes "X-Men: First Class" is to put forward the controversial political theories of his mentor, twelve-time presidential candidate Lyndon Larouche. This is why the X-Men almost always fight the British Royal Family.
JEFF PARKER: Similarly, "Wolverine: First Class" serves the agendas of the Trilateral Commission, though in entertaining serial form. Wolverine represents Japan, Kitty stands in for America, so on. Not since the "Wizard of Oz" has an author's take on society and politics been so transparent."...................
"FVL: Can't get enough of pro-Lyndon Larouche subliminal messages? Well, Jeff plans on putting 142 of them in an upcoming issue. The lucky boy or girl who finds them all gets to be Larouche's 2008 vice-presidential nominee. "............
"5) In "X-Men: First Class," can there be an issue when we can focus on the Beast?
JP: Yes, there can (to use a non-LaRouche political slogan)! We've been saving up the Beast Love, but it's coming your way!
Congrats Marcus! You're getting some Beast Love from Jeff Parker (although you may want to rephrase that statement when bragging to your friends)."

MARCUS? TRILATS? The Queen of England? We are covering Lyn1.0 Lyn2.0 Lyn3.0 to the present LYM0.00 by thse two.
I often wondered how come whenever we gave a brief to someone who had some knowledge about a subject ,the person wold read it and not go hog wild over us. This three part series is very interesting because of the analysis of a recent LYM pamphlet. Now it makes sense why we stoped mailing out New Solidarity and everythng else, less for people to read and find fault with. That includes members.
From:
http://www.avault.com/
Part one
http://www.avault.com/?p=2333

Part two
http://www.avault.com/?p=2341
Part Three
http://www.avault.com/?p=2346

This got me thinking about how Jeff is following in Lyn's footsteps by having his own delusions of "inheriting" all of this when Lyn finally goes. Lyn has genetics on his side as well as a supporter who is into cyrogenics. Jeff may have to wait a looong time for his coronation as he also has to deal with Helga who has her claim and is a Larouche by name.
Sorry Jeff, I doubt you will be able to drive to LaroucheTown and have everyone become "SteinbergYouth" that easy.
Jeff is not going to defeat Helga the Hut that easy folks. Don't blame me Jeff. You fed the beast and now it will be eating you.
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

04-18-2008, 08:51 PM

candor

It is blaming the victim to say that he or she only stays in the cult because he or she wants to. It is true that the exchange is that of one party whose psychological needs are met and that the other gets his financial AND psychological needs met (the need for unconditional adoration, for example.) There is an element of volition that remains, yes, but it becomes vitiated through lack of use.
One can hardly let LaRouche and his agents off the hook when one considers that they do their best to cut a new recruit off from family and friends, take away their ability to earn a living apart from the cult, harass them if they read anything away from an approved reading list, subject them to duress if they do not raise enough money, etc.
A cult member is like an addict: given what is now commonly known about addiction, would it be seemly to just tell the addict to get over it? To suggest that the drug dealer and other enablers have no role in the addict's continued dependence?

04-18-2008, 09:41 PM

candor

That is a non sequitur.
In so far as a cult member commits a tort on behalf of the cult, the cult member is responsible at law.
In so far as a cult member remains a cult member, the cult member is not to be exclusively blamed for his continued membership.
I agree that one does not become an angel once one leaves the cult: one still has to own up to much that one did which was wrong while in the cult, much as a recovering drug addict must set things right once he or she is on the road to recovery. But there is a different degree of culpability between the drug addict and the drug dealer, between the cult member and the cult leader.
This is recognized in, among other places, Roman Catholic moral theology. To continue the analogy, if I as a non-drug-addict pick up a needle today of my own free will and in full knowledge of how I may end up inject myself with heroin, I have committed a far graver sin than when I inject myself one year down the road, now addicted to the drug and with my free will severely compromised. I may beg, borrow, and steal at that point in service of my addiction, but I am less culpable than were I to do so out of my own unrestrained free will.
People who join cults are damaged to begin with - as much as the prospective drug addict is. There is nothing to be served by blaming the victim until he is free from the cult and in full possession of his faculties, at which point he can and ought begin to set right what he or has done wrong in the name of the cult leader.

04-18-2008, 09:47 PM

howie

It is on the dailykos website, though not on the front page, because -- you know, actual political things are happening and such and Larouche is essentially a running joke. BUT its relevance is put forth in the second paragraph:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/4/17/144410/655
Snark aside, this diary is not meant to be a joke. I am amazed at the number of college-aged progressives who take LaRouche and his Kool-Aid drinking minons seriously. Oh well sure they are an little weird and I really don't know who Lyndon LaRouche is but I'm glad they are saying something about Bush/Cheney is a all too common refrain. I hope this little tidbit (ie LaRouche calls Obama a monkey) will help to wipe the scales from the eyes of young but naive progressives.
And with mentions of Jeremiah Duggan.
"Monkey - Gate" is more useful than older quotations as it is more immediate.

04-18-2008, 10:14 PM

localgreek

please outline the nature of the pressure

Quote:
Originally Posted by candor

IOne can hardly let LaRouche and his agents off the hook when one considers that they do their best to cut a new recruit off from family and friends, take away their ability to earn a living apart from the cult, harass them if they read anything away from an approved reading list, subject them to duress if they do not raise enough money, etc.
A cult member is like an addict: given what is now commonly known about addiction, would it be seemly to just tell the addict to get over it? To suggest that the drug dealer and other enablers have no role in the addict's continued dependence?

======================
Would it be possible to please outline what kinds of pressure the member is subjected to. For someone on the outside it is difficult to imagine. Is there violence? what is done to the person? What is this ego-stripping that I keep reading about?
I remember once when I was young I had a boyfriend who shoved me really hard against a wall; I became instantly alarmed. I said to myself, if he can do that, what else can he do. I tried to find a nice way to get out of the relationship because I was already worried.
So, if members are hurt and harrassed are these not alarm bells?
Please also explain to me what kind of fear dominates. Ken must have been terrified when he went on the bridge. He had his lunch. His death seems to me to be the result of some extreme fear, fear of something being done to him. what would have been done to him? And is there no legal way in which the death of Ken. K. could be connected to the inducement to suicide that appeared on that briefing.

04-18-2008, 10:21 PM

shadok

Moon/bevel

Quote:
Originally Posted by poe
The ads in the Washinton Times were because we wanted ads in a major DC newspaper. Both major DC papers were owned by enemies of LaRouche. LaRouche had published material linking Washington Post owner Katherine Grahm to the murder of her husband. So which paper was he going to pick? Bevel was a Moon-North-WACL dirty trick deployed to destroy the LaRouche organization while he was in jail, not somebody that LaRouche hired in order to get tight with the Moonies. Part of the problem was that although Helga'a faction were the main ones warning of an intelligence community attempt to take over the organization during this peroid, the Zeppadistas were also the ones who were the most taken in by Bevel.

1/ larouche NEVER attacked Bevel as an enemy sent to destroy his org. (instead he lately attacked Fernando et al. for it, NOT Bevel or Moon) That in itself proves your theory does not work. Besides, larouche being in jail, his org. didnt represent a problem, if it ever did, to his "enemies"... Who cared by then? Really.
2/ why is it that the Washington Times was the only newspaper which was NOT opposed to larouche, since as you said, we attacked Moon "all the time"?
3/ we took on Moon every now and again because we were competitors for the same "target-client", ie the Reagan administration. Like larouche, Moon considers to be the author of Reagan's SDI and helped to destroy communism...
Bevel was key after the trials to rehabilitate larouche.
Larouche's connections to KKK (frankhouser) were then revealed in courts and D King's book (published on 1989), exposing our connections to the Liberty Lobby, the KKK etc started to have serious effects inside and outside of the org.
This is why Bevel was useful: 1/ a Larouche-Bevel ticket to "prove" to the world lyn is not an anti-blacks/KKK racist, 2/ therefore Bevel was deployed to launch an anti-KKK campaign; to remove the Albert Pike statue (blaming btw the Jews/B'nai B'rith for being "behind" the KKK!!!)
There is a real difference between some articles attacking someone (who did we NOT attack anyway? For instance, we attacked Ramsey Clark who eventually... defended larouche!) and a campaign, which is based on a political decision (ie larouche's)
The 2002 EIR series against Moon was part of a campaign. These articles looked like a tactic to disassociate larouche from Moon/"sex scandals" (which sex scandals at the time???), similar to the Bevel-led "anti-KKK"/Pike campaign to disassociate larouche from the KKK.
The question is: why did larouche decide to clearly disassociate himself from Moon in 2002 (and ever since)?
Interestingly there are no comments - it seems - from lar et al on Bevel's sex scandal/incest... so far.
http://www.google.com/search?q=site:www.larouchepub.com+moonie&hl=en&safe=off&rlz=1B2GGFB_enGB225GB226&start=10&sa=N

04-18-2008, 10:42 PM

shadok

leaving the cult

Quote:
Originally Posted by localgreek
How would one go about trying to encourage a family member to just leave. Every time I have spoken to someone in this cult, they sound like wind-up toys. It is impossible to discuss anything. So, how do you encourage someone after three or four decades to leave.

I would encourage anyone who wishes to help someone to leave the cult, to read Steven Hassan's books (and contact him)
He is an ex-Moonie and knows from his unique experience how mind control operates and what to do and not to do.
www.freedomofmind.com/

04-18-2008, 10:47 PM

candor

localgreek,
I can only relate my own experience.
(1) I never saw any physical violence, though I did see people screamed at in a manner which, if one saw this on the street, would lead one to conclude that a blow was about to be struck.
(2) As with other cults, the recruiters use the bait-and-switch tactic: they are very nice and complimentary to you at the start while at the same time learning all about you - including your weaknesses. Once you are in they are no longer nice and, if you don't do what you are told, they throw these same weaknesses back at you, often in a mocking way.
(3) There are frequent so called ego-stripping sessions in which people are yelled at for their failures; the National Committee members (NCs) maintain a perpetual atmosphere of fear based on your fear of their next verbal assault, which is likely today.
(4) With regard to the LaRouche Youth Movement, the NCs were indulgent for an unusually long period of time - until last year when they finally put us to work raising money to replace the faltering boomers.
(5) You really cannot listen to John Cage or read Ferlinghetti without getting reamed: it is impossible to read or enjoy anything which is not approved. You know, this saving-the-world-business-and-LaRouche-is-the-only-answer business is quite serious, so there is no time for a movie or, God forbid, South Park.
(6) The atmosphere is always such that the sky is falling, including mandatory adoration of Lyndon LaRouche and the need for ever more money, which I now know is just to keep Helga in fine fettle.

04-19-2008, 02:31 AM

earnest_one

Violence LocalGeek, Candor,
I had many experiences, in Wiesbaden, in the mid-70s, similar in many respects to what happened to Jeremiah Duggan.
I attended the yearly conference, at the invitation of a close relative. On the night before the conference, I had "difficulties" with one of LAR's leaders, a guy who headed a delegation from another European City. Moreover, while walking down the street, some goon smashed into me and said, "Either you join up, or we cut your X's legs off" (for "X" insert a loved one).
I was then separated from my relative and, roughly speaking, spent a week, being worked over (psychologically), virtually 24 hours a gay. Sleep deprivation is a serious matter and, since there were seven of them and one of me, they could rotate in and out.
Long story short, I am a tough cookie, and I cracked them before they cracked me. I lived in Berkeley for years and had studied (informally) the various cults on campus. The KEY mistake is to go on a weekend outing with one of these groups. I would always talk with them but would never go away with anyone, especially when/where the conditions are controlled, day and night.
Incidentally, upon my arrival in Wiesbaden, "they" tried to get me to hand over my passport (for safekeeping). I thought this was absurd and refused. Every foreign visitor should have their passport on them at all times (or so I thought). In any case, this aspect of my story is consonant with Duggan's experience (albeit, apparently he handed his over).
Violence comes in many forms. The initial threat was disturbing (cutting off someone's legs unless I cooperated). But this was explained away with claims that some rogue ex-LaRouchies were roaming town disrupting people. The head of the delegation was informed and he said that he would alert security to the "problem".
Personally, I think it was all planned as I saw the same guy later, at the conference, looking over my shoulder.
Creepy. Yeah. And if "Creepy = N" it was N+1 fives times a second.
I never joined, but my relative did; and it was family nightmare for almost 30 years.

04-19-2008, 07:00 AM

boomer70

a warning Dear LYMer,
Ask questions, ask questions, ask questions.
It's the faking assent that leads to the other evils. If you don't understand a statement or action by the leadership, ask questions. If their statements or actions are at odds with your own beliefs, ask questions. Unquestioning acceptance and faking assent will destroy you and the org' as a source of good.
Contrary to the pseudo-science promoted by Larouche and his minions, true science is always vigorous in questioning its hypotheses. Really it believes in none of them and holds as unquestionable only that the truth lies beyond sense-certainty and that we are capable of knowing it.
Ask questions, ask questions, ask questions.

04-19-2008, 08:20 AM

shadok

violence/ duggan

Quote:
Originally Posted by earnest_one
LocalGeek, Candor,
I had many experiences, in Wiesbaden, in the mid-70s, similar in many respects to what happened to Jeremiah Duggan.

Yep earnest_one that's creepy.
I never witnessed directly such behavior but i was told a recent story of a potential young recruit who was suspected to be an agent (he simply disagreed) When he was driven back by car from their retreat, the larouchies stopped the car, pulled their sleeves up and threatened him asking "for whom he was working, otherwise..." The guy was so upset and scared after the incident he wouldn't talk about it for days (he didn't join to my knowledge)
Moreover, I think your story could help Erica Duggan (if you haven't contacted her yet).
Typically I would imagine, if Jeremiah was considered as a "suspect/agent" (at the wake of www3/iraq war planned by the Brits and Zionists -to remind the hysterical context then) the psywarfare to tell them "whom is working for" would obviously target him as GAY (we have this stereotype that Brits are homosexuals) in order to destabilize him "psychologically".
In a controlled environment and sleep deprivation where he didn't have his own passport one can imagine how distressed he could have found himself in...
Violence is present ALL THE TIME. It is in the words, the speeches etc.
There are situations where there is only a fine line separating mere "words" from... "action". Especially under stress like... at an ICLC cadre school.
In Jeremiah's case, somebody crossed that line.

04-19-2008, 03:35 PM

eaglebeak

How a Radical-Left Group Moved Toward Savagery; Progression to Violence The headline above came from a New York Times article about the Labor Committee and the sequelae to the Chris W "brainwashing"--the article was on the front page of the Jan. 20, 1974 issue and was written by Paul Montgomery.
Shadok: "Violence is present ALL THE TIME. It is in the words, the speeches etc. "
Absolutely.
In 1973 there was "Mop-Up"--attacking Communist Party members with fists, numchuks, pugil sticks. No one died in those attacks, but certainly Labor Committee members were injured--concussions, lost teeth, broken bones--and the CPers likewise.
In 1974, there was the massive psychological assault on Carol and Chris W, coupled with Chris's supposed "deprogramming" by Lyn--enough of which was recorded on tape or in print to make clear that it was a violent and brutal exercise.
In 1974, too, there was the locking up ("isolation") of numerous members of, mostly, the NEC--the same body which Lyn delights in hammering to this day. They were being "isolated" so they could be "deprogrammed."
There was in that same year the RYM (Revolutionary Youth Movement), made up of ghetto gang members, basically, who were organized around Lyn's personal slogan "Don't Think Small, Take It All"--the "idea" being to channel their "rage" into "revolutionary" activities.
There was also the campaign against Imamu Baraka (LeRoi Jones) in Newark, NJ, which had very sinister overtones/undertones.
Zeke B, Gus, and one other were arrested in Mountain Lakes, NJ, with a bunch of guns in the back of the car.
There was the Labor Committee invasion of the Newark City Council meeting, which resulted in a melee and numerous arrests. (And a front-page closeup picture in the Daily News of Gus being dragged out by the cops.)
There was, in 1974, the so-called "Officers Training School" in upstate New York, on the farm of one of the members' families, which combined weapons training with crazed lectures on military "strategy" by various members of the leadership, and of course the ubiquitous psychological "interventions" and "sessions."
This was brought to an abrupt end when Carol found out something about it and told Lyn it was psychotic. He claimed he hadn't known--but given the individuals in "Security" who were running it, that was an obvious lie.
There was, in the mid-1980s, the "SoVa" (Southern Virginia) project, of some kind of "camp" being overseen by Danny Murdoch. (Ask Jeff about him, LYMers.) When the locals in Leesburg, Virginia accused LaRouche of doing weapons training at the org's then-camp for children, Sweetwater, they were wrong about that--but only because they had the wrong camp. The camp they meant was SoVa.
So ask Jeff about it, or Michele, or Barbara--or Ed, if you can find him.
There was the decision in 1986 or so to train the NEC in shooting.
There was Lyn's increasingly violent language.
There was Lyn's association with such crazed individuals as Mitch WerBell and Roy Frankhauser.
There was Lyn's demented telegram to Ronald Reagan on the night of October 5, 1986 (during the famous October 5-6 raid when 400 Feds, and state and local police, raided the office in downtown Leesburg--right there on King Street, between Market and Loudoun, in the Wheat Building).
Ask Security about that one, LYMers. Ask a member of Security to get it for you--easy to do--it was published. Ask Rick M--but then duck.
That, they say, was what made Bobby K, then head of Security, quit. He read the telegram and knew Lyn was nuts.
As Boomer70 says, Ask questions, ask questions, ask questions. The process, and the leadership's reaction to it, will tear away all semblance of rationality and allow you to see the seething cauldron of insanity beneath.
But then you need an exit strategy, because (a) you won't want to hang around and (b) they won't want you to hang around.
And yes, the fear and psychological pressure is inordinate. Ken Kronberg was very afraid--afraid of the inevitable and to him unbearable attacks, afraid of being sucked down in the wake of the capsizing companies, afraid of the wreckage Lyndon LaRouche's brilliant financial management had made of Ken's life, legally and fiscally, and afraid of what it would do to his family and their ability simply to survive.
Perhaps someone from "Legal" or "Security," or Jeff, or Dennis S, will tell you that Ken did what he did because he had committed all sorts of illegalities and was afraid of the consequences.
Balderdash. The one illegality Ken had committed was not to pay withholding taxes to the IRS, which was well known by the IRS--and he and his companies and lawyers were in detailed negotiations with the IRS on resolving that.
Ken could have faced any of that. What he couldn't face was the friendly fire that always comes from Lyn's guns--and worse in Ken's case, with worse real-world consequences, than ever before.
Lyn was perfectly content to let Ken go down with the ship. Only now has Lyn discovered, with that penetrating intellect of his, that it's a problem running a "mass" movement if you don't have literature.

04-19-2008, 04:14 PM

eaglebeak

Ken's Funeral, a Year Ago Today One year ago today (Thursday, April 19, 2007), Ken Kronberg's funeral was held at St. James Episcopal Church in Leesburg, Virginia.
It was attended by a huge crowd--Labor Committee members, ex-Labor Committee members, family of Ken and Molly, friends of Ken and Molly and Max who had nothing to do with the org, business associates of Ken's, former employees of Ken's, people from the Kronbergs' neighborhood.
The church was packed. Even with folding chairs in the aisles, it was standing room only.
Perhaps everyone associated with the org--those who hated it and those who loved it--knew they were attending its funeral too, that Ken Kronberg had pulled the plug on Lyndon LaRouche.
The one person who wasn't there, of course, was Lyndon LaRouche.
He is a most consummate coward.
Also, it is rumored that the night before the funeral Molly Kronberg had called up Nancy Spannaus and said "If that man comes, I leave the church."
However, there was no chance he would come, and Molly must have known it. I think she just wanted to be very, very sure.
Jeff later said to Molly, I'm told, "yeah yeah, absolutely, understand completely--wouldn't want Ken to be overshadowed by having Lyn there. It was important to have Ken the center of attention. Sure, definitely."
That's Jeff--always ready to agree with anyone. It's been his ticket to the "top."
I have saved the leaflet from Ken's funeral for the past year. For those of you who didn't go, for those of you who didn't know Ken from Adam, let me give you a run-down of the funeral service.
Almost all the poems, music, and Scripture readings had been chosen by Ken several years before; he had told son Max and wife Molly during a long car ride, and Max had written them down--as reported in the funeral sermon by the Rev. John Ohmer.
Poems and Psalms:
Psalm 3, the translation/rendition by John Milton. It starts: "Lord, how many are my foes!"
Psalm 23
"The New Colossus" by Emma Lazarus--the poem on the base of the Statue of Liberty. Read by Ken's brother Richard. This poem conveys much about the Kronberg family and the New World.
"Ode to the West Wind" by Percy Bysshe Shelley. Read by Ken's son Max.
The Lord's Prayer--Ken often said it was his favorite prayer, "it's a good Jewish prayer."
Sonnet 154 by William Shakespeare--the last of Shakespeare's Sonnet Cycle, the one that ends "Love's fire heats water, water cools not love."
The first reading of the service was from the Book of Job:
I know that my Redeemer liveth,
and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth;
and though this body be destroyed, yet shall I see God;
whom I shall see for rmyself and mine eyes shall behold,
and not as a stranger.
Next came a reading from the Book of Wisdom (3:1-5, 9). That starts:
The souls of the righteous are in the hand of God, and there shall no torment touch them. In the sight of the unwise they seemed to die: and their departure is taken for misery. And their going from us to be utter destruction: but they are in peace. For though they be punished in the sight of men, yet is their hope full of immortality. And having been a little chastised, they shall be greatly rewarded....
There was also 1 Corinthians 13:1-13--the whole reading, not the usually truncated one. Read in the King James version.
Sander F said the Jewish prayer for the dead, Kaddish, which was printed on facing pages English/Hebrew (or possibly Aramaic), because Ken was a Cohen (of the priestly line), and so is Sander.
The music included:
Beethoven's variations for Cello and Piano on "See the Conqu'ring Hero Comes" from Handel's Judas Maccabaeus
Abendempfindung K 523, by Mozart
Hymns: "Abide with Me" "Come, Ye Faithful, Raise the Strain"

So, on this first anniversary of his funeral, we remember Ken with love, and we look on LaRouche with a profound distaste.
To put it mildly.

04-20-2008, 03:22 AM

candor

Cult Characteristics For those who wonder whether the LaRouche group is a cult, check out the following set of criteria posted at laroucheplanet.info:
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult_q0.html
Even if LaRouche flunked out of high-school geometry and Northeastern (twice), his organization earns an A+ on this test.

04-20-2008, 04:48 AM

xlcr4life

Quote:
Originally Posted by candor
For those who wonder whether the LaRouche group is a cult, check out the following set of criteria posted at laroucheplanet.info:
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult_q0.html
Even if LaRouche flunked out of high-school geometry and Northeastern (twice), his organization earns an A+ on this test.

I had a similar experience when I read one of Steve Hassan's books called "Releasing the Bonds". There is a section which has many of those points you mentioned about mind control and cults.
http://www.freedomofmind.com/resourcecenter/books/rtb2.htm
One day I decided to take a comprehensive look at the LC and see if there was a direct example of each point within what I either experienced or knew to be true. With barely a few exceptions, it was quite shocking to see just how the LC became a true cult as time wore on.

I do not know how others remember things, but I always had in the back of my mind that there was some type of "line" to cross where I would end up like many of the people I was with. This is sort of hard to describe in that I stayed in way too long by constantly rationalizing that things would be soon turned into a sane org like a think tank or any other lobby or political group. It took a while to figure out that there was no way in hell that the LC would change, except for the worse. If you read about mind control and cults the creep meter starts to jump. The final version of this nightmare in a self proclaimed Larouche Youth is by itself a sort of filter to I think to speed up the creepy part.
One way to keep from crossing that line I talk about was maintaining a relationship to the real and imperfect world which in my case was outside vendors, TV , radio and print magazines and journals. What surprised me at first was just how many former members I know who would sneak off to read or watch things which were frowned on as "banal". This is in an era before one could view things on a computer alone and took an effort to get away from other people. God forbid you were a Gay Lcer in NYC who snuck off to attend an Opera and was "exposed" in the national office, the opera, not the gay part.
The next question is whether a long time member can leave after being spit upon by Lyn. Older LCers in Leesburg have a luxury of getting part time jobs and slowly fading away. We have had numerous leaders leave officially either by themselves or being purged in spurts.
Tijme has gone by so fast since my children were born. It seems like yesterday I was changing diapers and selecting baby supplies and now I have to select colleges to visit. Up next is a question which asks if a certain NC could leave and how does he compare to someone who did leave damn near 25 years ago who he knows quite intimately.
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

04-20-2008, 05:25 AM

xlcr4life

2 Attachment(s) Can Phil R leave the LC/LYM Y N or Maybe? Can Phil Leave this lunacy?
I really do not know. We have had some very good remarks by people here about leaving the LC and how it takes the individual to ultimately make that decision. What I always find is that in many cases, members stick around in senior positions not for the praise, but because of the abuse. It reminds of when I speak to my friends who are in law enforcement and counseling who deal with abused spouses where the constant abuse and insulting, as well as the control of money, living conditions, who their friends are, ends up enslaving the person in an abusive relationship. As time goes on someone may not wish to just abandon all of the energy and hope they had in the relationship because in their eyes, they just wasted all of that time for nothing.
Phil has spent close to 4 decades of his life in slavish devotion to Lyn, just to end up being publically humiliated by Lyn to the LYM.
We go back to an address by Lyn to the LYM last year where this was said:
"Now, we started in California, largely with Phil's influence, in doing the work on the Pythagoreans, and some other things as well. And Phil was acting as a key mentor, with long-winded efforts at explanation and so forth, to get something going, which did get going and it worked. But that was not going to work over all. So, what I did, is to get the continuity of this things started, so we started the Kepler project, because all modern science depends upon Kepler. That is, the actual development of modern physical science, depends entirely on Kepler: If you don't know Kepler, if you don't understand Kepler, {you don't know modern science}. You may pretend you do, you may have degrees, you have Professor This, Professor That: But if you don't understand Kepler's revolution, you have no foundation in modern physical science. You're just not competent."
Those of us here know how to read the writing on the wall. Phil was bright enough to be considered as a Rabbinical student and being admitted to John Hopkins at an early age. His entire adult life has basically been in this cult of lunacy and he has accepted every bit if it without an objection that I know of. Virtually all of his fellow NC and NEC members who joined with him left except for the hard core trash we have now. Phil accepted the phony brainwashing stories, the fiscal rape of our supporters, the Jew Jokes and the one by one purging and rewriting of the LC by Lyn .
The words last year prepared us for what followed a few Sundays ago when Lyn delivered his racist tract about Obama. Did Phil take that with a smile? I do not know that, but I do know that in the same body we find Lyn saying this to every member.
"I fight stupidity in our organization. Especially among Boomers. There are a few members of the Boomer class, who actually do anything intellectually, in this organization. And most of you who've been watching it, know who they are. Like Harley, for example: Harley is in the field organization, the most significant leader of the organization in the field. Now, the reason for Harley's qualifications are, he and his wife represent a very high i ntellectual and moral standard, which is resistant to some of the things that throw other people off balance. And those of you from California have some reflection of this. I mean, Phil is a very intellectual guy, but he doesn't have that particular kind of fighting capability that Harley does. And Phil just says, "Why isn't this succeeding? Why isn't this succeeding? What we do about this?" Well, Phil does just not do that kind of fighting. He'll make proposals, he'll present this, he'll analyze things--all fine. But, to lead--it's like with Quincy.
Phil, because of a sickness in the family, Phil was taken out of the leadership in California. And I said, "Put Quincy in to promote, organize the fundraising." Guess what happened? It's fine! Because Quincy brought in the element, which Phil was not doing; it's not Phil's temperament to do that. And Quincy went in, to do the opposite: He said, "I'm organizing you guys." Hmm? He didn't go in and fight with them, to start organizing. He said, "I'm organizing you guys"--and the phone team suddenly, for a short period of time, actually functioned.
And others picked up, with Quincy, in trying to do that, which is a very difficult case to deal with, as anybody from California knows."
You do not get a watch in the cult after 40 years of loyal service. You get to watch yourself be destroyed by Lyn as he just negated every single thing you slavishly did for him in those 40 odd years.
Of all the emails I have recieved over the years by people who knew Phil, one stands out because of the spiritual nature of it. The person wrote that the future hell of Phil R was sealed when he laughed and joked about the death of a young LC member named Roger Chamberlin who died in a car crash as he drove across the US to get to the NYC office. The name of Roger Chamberlin is in the LC dust bin as he is the 1970s version of the 1990s Michael Gelber who died in a LaroucheMobile as well. Gelber is someone else Phil knew well according to some of the emails.
Phil ran boiler rooms for the LC and made MILLIONS for Lyn . Lyn's real estate in Leesburg had funding for that from Phil's tireless efforts. Phil would send every last dime and the pennies on the floor to Lyn when asked. Phil's anger was legendary if the quota was not reached and many a member tried to sit outside of the chair throwing range. This Rabbinical student candidate has had his name used by so many LYM who email me angry letters about how Larouche is not anti semitic because Phil is Jewish and he and the other Jewish leaders prove that Lyn is not anti semitic!
The real issue is that Harley has a better fundraising wife. Suzie can outfundraise Leni with one lung tied behind her back. Suzie sends money to feed Lyn while Leni send expense proposals to take money away from Lyn. Leni had her own delusions that she was immune from this since she was so tight with Helga. This is the Shiela Jones vaccine which only protects you as long as the money roles in.
Phil has seen virtually everyone he knows leave the LC from top to bottom. It is not an easy task to just leave when you have nothing. He can't even use Social Security as being a boomer, he is a few more years away from being able to collect a meager sum. Meager because he will probably be using very low income levels to determine his benefits.
Maybe he can justify all of this by figuring that the people he knew who left are all losers. Well, the one phrase you can hear Phil repeat for damn near 4 decades is "we are building a movement". There was a segment on youtube of the LA office which had Phil saying that line in a telphone briefing we posted last year. A little bit after that , the video was removed and reposted without Phil in it since it was too cruel and embarrasing to show yutes how this is all designed not to work, just spin wheels and keep Lyn in the lifestyle he enjoys.
Now what of some of the people who left? As fate would have it, I was perusing the April 14th issue of Fortune magazine when I came to pages 24 to 25. The pages featured a big picture of two researchers training in the Arctic to simulate conditions on Mars. On page 24 is this:
101 Days, is how long a crew of seven spent on the island last summer in a living laboratory funded and run by the MARS SOCIETY, a non profit based in Lakewood, Colo, that promotes exporation on Mars. Director James Cameron and astronaut Buzz Aldrin are among the 7,000 members..
Later, on Time magazines Pictures of the Week you can see a picture of two members of the Mars Society simulating work on a hot Martian surface in the desert. The caption with the photo is from:

http://www.time.com/time/picturesoftheweek/0,29409,1729779_1563251,00.html

April 4 - 10, 2008
Saturday, April 5, 2008
Journey to Mars?
Two members of the Mars Society rehearse life and work on the Red Planet at the Mars Desert Research Station, a simulated Mars environment in Hanksville, Utah. The society is dedicated to encouraging the exploration and settlement of Mars.

Compare the picture from Time magazine to the one below of a LCer to see the difference in physical space as the mental space just does not seem to click sometimes for LC/LYM.

So what does this mean? Well, the Mars Society
http://www.marssociety.org/portal
was set up by a former LCer named Robert Zubrin who Phil Rubinstein knows well , very well. It seems hard to believe, but a quarter century has elapsed since Zubrin left the crazy house . Zubrin went back to school and earned a PHD, several patents, invented ways to improve and conquer space, worked at several aerospace companies, wrote several best selling books, has been on literally thousands of TV , radio , web and print outlets championing space travel, beein in invited guest to Congress and the White House and created the Mars Society which has over 7.000 members and numerous real live scientists in it.

Phil on the otherhand has been saying over and over like a broken vinyl record that "we need to create a movement" and "we need to hit quota" for a few decades. Phil has been mentioned in documents, but those usually were legal papers being served concerning the promisorry notes of Caucus Distributers Incorporated. Zubrin has used processed raw materials to make energy to propel a spacecraft through outer space while Phil uses his hands to propel chairs through office space.
Phil has a few dozen college drop outs to order around while The Mars Society has over 7,000 members with a high percentage of them being college educated who can partake of their interests in space without having to worship a cult of personality.
Phil raises millions to finance Lyn's estates while money raised by the Mars Society funds research. Phil sends LYM to be laughed at by everyone while the Mars Society is now setting up a formal lobbying operation to build on their success with elected officials. If you LYM are smart to go on that web site, you will see that there are openings for people. Just fiddle your resume a little.
Stick with Zubrin and his operation and you just might be doing research in a simulation study,breathing in safe, mixed atmospheric gasses and wearing a space suit. Stick with Phil and you will be at a card table shrine for the rest of your life as he experiments with your mind via Beyond Psych sessions after you breathe in a daily dose of toxic carcinogens at street level.
No matter what Phil has done which is bad in promoting this sick cult, he was a smart guy and to see Lyn just F with him as he has done is too much. I can't help but feel that Lyn does this to make sure that certain people do not leave becuase they would think that all of their life was wasted. Is Lyn cruel enough to F with Phil and basically tell him "Go on, you are worthless, I do not need you. I sucked everything out of you and if you want to leave, well, you just wasted your life, not mine. See if you can handle that cloud over your head Phil if you want to leave"
I noticed this at the end of the briefing by Lyn to the members.
"The Boomers out there are not exactly the most enthusiastic [laughter]... So this is the kind of problem {I} face. And I think if you look at it from my standpoint, you get a better perspective, because I'm older than you guys are, and therefore I'm more experienced with these kinds of problems--and more diverse internationally, than you. So, I'm inured. I can
not be converted to Boomerism. I'm Boomer-resistant."

To me, this sounds like what I have been saying about Lyn to yutes and people like Phil. He knows it is a cult and you don't.
The one thing that Phil should know is this. If he ever decides to leave this madhouse and needs help, he has a close friend who he can call up who would probably help him. He is near by . This is a total guess by several people who know both parties. I do not know if that is true, but you never know. Who did Phil respect more, Ken or Lyn?
BTW folks, Zubrin spent his last year in the LC promoting Kepler's works, not Lyn. See how this works as Lyn now proclaims himself as a scientist and a Kepler expert?

xlcr4life@hotmail.com

04-21-2008, 12:03 AM

candor

Mellon Scaife Mellon Scaife has endorsed Hillarity in Pennsylvania:
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/opinion/archive/s_563322.html
So ... how does THAT fit in with this new "Get Hillary" conspiracy touted by the LaRouchites?
Crazy.

04-21-2008, 12:35 AM

localgreek

xclr writes:
I really do not know. We have had some very good remarks by people here about leaving the LC and how it takes the individual to ultimately make that decision. What I always find is that in many cases, members stick around in senior positions not for the praise, but because of the abuse. It reminds of when I speak to my friends who are in law enforcement and counseling who deal with abused spouses where the constant abuse and insulting, as well as the control of money, living conditions, who their friends are, ends up enslaving the person in an abusive relationship. As time goes on someone may not wish to just abandon all of the energy and hope they had in the relationship because in their eyes, they just wasted all of that time for nothing.
__________________________________________________
There are extremely informative posts here. It takes a great deal of work to post the way most of you do. You are doing a real service to mankind here, truly trying to save 'civilization' not like the cult.
As for the above comment by xclr, I agree that the basic relationship is one of enslavement and abuse, and I would add and perhaps you would agree, "coercive persuasion" (to quote the founder of this site. )
Upon the suggestion of one of the members I did go to the home page and read as much as I could.
I came across this rather interesting item: the California Supreme Court found that "when a person is subjected to coercive persuasion without his knowledge or consent, (he may)develop serious and sometimes irreversible physical and psychiatric disorders, up to and including schizophrenia, self-mutilation, and suicide."
Now the question that arises is connected to the issue of knowledge and consent. Did members willing submit to coercive persuasion? Was there coercion?
If ,as Hassan argues, the cult works on a person and in subtle ways changes his active identity, there is no consent if the person doesn't grasp what is happening. Hassan and the owner of this site argue that almost anyone can become susceptible to a cult, given the right circumstances. If we accept this, then the people have been dragooned into servitude not really of their own volition. Some of the posters here outlined horrendous episodes during recruitment. Yet, whenever I have spoken to people in cults, including this one, they have stamped their feet up and down that this was their choice and they have never been happier. How do you take someone out if they are so happy?? Gets tricky.
-------------------------------------

xclr:
Phil has spent close to 4 decades of his life in slavish devotion to Lyn, just to end up being publically humiliated by Lyn to the LYM.
--------------------------------
it strikes me that humiliation is central to the operation of this cult; speakers, politicians, humiliated by Larouchies, and the Larouchies themselves humiliated by those who are on the higher rung. What a way to build an advanced civilization.
=----------------------------------
xclr writes:
. Phil accepted the phony brainwashing stories, the fiscal rape of our supporters, the Jew Jokes and the one by one purging and rewriting of the LC by Lyn .
========
This part is the biggest puzzle for me, not just about this member Phil, whom I do not know, but about all of them. How do they explain all this?
I must add that I have noticed that whenever I brought up an item that Larouche said or predicted that was imbecilic, I was told it was not true.
------------------------------------
Larouche:
[b]"I fight stupidity in our organization. Especially among Boomers. .....
-------------------------------
I have to wonder how Boomer members are to adjust to this--or is this just more humiliation.
---------------------
xclr:
Phil ran boiler rooms for the LC and made MILLIONS for Lyn . Lyn's real estate in Leesburg had funding for that from Phil's tireless efforts.
-------------------
Please do inform what Larouche's worth really is. Also, where does he live? Does he have servants to cook and clean? Please also, if you can, give an indicator of how many members give or take there are in Leesburg. What would you estimate to be the total membership of this cult?
-------------------

04-22-2008, 01:06 PM

eaglebeak

Getting Something in Return A certain number of people stay in the org, even though they think it's balderdash, because they are married to or related to someone who doesn't.

04-22-2008, 06:25 PM

localgreek

To Borismaglev,
I must be careful with the way I write posts; in fact the item you quoted was mine and not xclr's.
But to get to the issue you raise which is below: I think you are being hard on yourself. You were probably in this cult well treated at first and then the sinister breakdown began. This is why I have asked now a couple of times: what did this egostripping involve? can someone describe this?
I suppose people do get something--some need is addressed, loneliness, the need for an authority figure, a father figure, the need to feel important...I don't know really. But when it comes to fiscal theft--from the elderly-- that's when alarm bells should have gone off. Why did they not? Here I do not understand enough about brainwashing, except that you became Orwellian creatures until you left. Look Borigmaglev, you left, you are lucky. What about those who haven't?
I think it was xclr who made the analogy with spousal abuse.
Now why peope get into this is complex indeed. One person that I know who is on the margins of this cult, that is, he supports it but leads a regular sort of live. He went a shrink who told him that he was looking for a father figure because his own father was a weak ineffectual man. But that is the psychiatric approach. I do not believe that everyone there is in this category.
Maybe the truth is you went in voluntarily, and then the involuntary coercion started ever so slowly, almost imperceptably. You know like the wife you first gets a slap. Then a year later a harder slap and kick, and then roses and then apologies and then black eyes.
All that I know is this--people in this cult are not living normal healty lives. They are subject to the worst sort of degradation and humiliation and "balderdash" to quote eaglebeak. It's worse than bladedash.
Think of all the wounded parents of Larouchies, think of all the fathers and the mothers crying at night for their offspring, think of their pain watching their children so wounded, so impoverished, so enslaved--and this in the wealthiest country in the world. This cult has injured not just members but the extended families too. Think of Ken's son. Think of Jeremiah's mother?
Why people were credulous initially, I do not understand. There may well have been a blinding need of some sort that sucked them into this thing.
Tell me something: if a person leaves this cult, are they threatened? No one seems to answer my question about how large this cult is. Or how much money Larouche controls.
------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by borismaglev
You've hit the nail on the head, my friend. That's why there is such quiet in this forum. When we joined LaRouche, we thought we were that smarterst people on earth. So, no question of involuntary coersion here. But when we quit, most of us resort to the excuse of "involuntary coersion" to explain why we stayed in, implying that we were the stupidest people on earth. So, which is it? The smartest or the stupidest? The alternative, and closer to the truth, is voluntary coersion. We were getting "something" in return for allowing ourselves to be bowed.
04-22-2008, 09:14 PM

xlcr4life

=localgreek;346684 Tell me something: if a person leaves this cult, are they threatened? No one seems to answer my question about how large this cult is. Or how much money Larouche controls.

In the past the LC would intimidate a member by using various means. One of them was to use legal suits to tie someone up in court and drain them. This I heard happened to people in the 1980s who gave Dennis King information about the cult. King's web site and Berlet's web site have info about how they were threatened and legally bullied. Since there is no volume of money as there was in the 1980s, this has pretty much stopped.
The cult would have security people do some things like phone calls to see where a person ended up. You might have a memebr who was your friend give you a call and ask what happened. I may be wrong, but there was more legal intimidation than any physical intimidation , if any existedin the past.
If anyone knows different besides a few recent posts which may pertain to Europe, than please share.
What to me is important is that the level of paranoia which is inhaled and exhaled every day,month and year by a member which can make them believe that they will be targetted. The cult can use that for their advantage because what happenes after you leave within the LC is more important. You never want to discuss that a member left because that causes questions to be asked and people to talk among themselves.
What you do want to do is to create a series of crazy reasons why the person left which of course will never mention that you are in a cult in the first place. This starts of depending on who is doing the talking. Lyn will ALWAYS say that so and so was an agent of such and such and of course he knew it from such and such day. This is the easiest thing to do and the last verison of this was the comical attacks on Molly Kronberg in recent briefings. Deadenders have been going through this for decades and a running joke in the LC is asking yourself how come Lyn always seemed to appoint agents to every leadership position in the LC around the world.
What some people fear is that anything they have revealed after being broken down by Lyn of a local NC will be revealed by them after they leave. This is powerfull stuff depending on the person who is targetted. After the person leaves, the leadership has to now destroy that person and point out their numerous flaws and weaknesses which allowed them to not leave, but betray the human race and the saviour of the human race, Lyn. The selling out of the human race I think is more important of a tool within the cult as many people who leave have to spend some time getting this lunacy out of their system that they are not doing anything to stop what they think will harm the human race.
You are in a Bizarro world of endless chaos and apocolyptic frenzy for years and years. It will take time to get rid of this and the cult can use this to whip up the next batch. This was definatlely the case when Phil and Harley took over LA from a departing NC and hyped up the bat sh*t crazy meter to make the local feel guilty and to work even harder.
You have to think about how someone like Phil or Harley has seen so many of his fellow leaders take off. Each one gave years of their life to this lunacy and are now enjoying their lives. Their former friends are now sending their kids to college, enjoying grand kids, running businesses or reviewing their investments for retirement. Just think about how much different the life is of a memebr who left 25 years ago with kids, money and a house compared to a Larouche bum who has been waiting like a cargo cult for the economy to collapse or to build a movement.
My spouse and I have spent a quarter century building a retirement fund through investments , IRA and 401Ks. Phil has spent nearly 40 years building a movement where the only movement is of belongings and ratty furniture being taken to another flat til the next movement takes place 6 months later.
You are going to get some angry and bitter people who hate ex memebrs and will make that clear to the newest set of recruits. This is sort of like how someone who was abused as a child ends up abusing a child or someone else when they get older. NCs who are in the LC today are always described as sadistic and extremely agitated when a LYM wants to do something like go home for Thanksgiving. I posted some exerpts frm Lyn and Helga last Thanksgiving about how the holidays have been cancelled. For years I noticed how the LYM was allowed to do fluffy things until the hammer was going to be dropped on them to raise money as boomers leave and die off.
A BIG difference between 25 years ago and now involves stalking laws and harrassment of people. I have made it very clear to people who email me and are scared to post something that the laws protect you more than the cult. You get a phone call you can press *69 to see where it came from. You see a cult member show up at your door you dial 911 on the cell phone as the history of having mentally unbalanced and delusional people who have access to firearms is something the police do not take lightly. I was reminded of this when I read what Eaglebeak wrote about Bobby K leaving after the raid where Lyn indicated that something very violent could take place when the Feds came . We were in the office reading this statement by Lyn in the briefing and people were very nervous. A lot of those people I knew took off after getting the sh*t scared out of them.
To sum up, I do not think that at this moment there is any physical threat that I know of. The threat is of an imaginary power the LC and Lyn has which in reality is confined to their imaginary universe. The laws are on the books to protect you, especially if you have children.
The real threat is of wild lunacy directed at a person who the cult has a deep, deep hatred for and has to make sure each and every member achieves the same status as a pus sore filled with with bile, oozing out of every verbal , web and print outlet left. What was done to and is still done to Jeremiah Duggan and Ken Kronberg's survivors is an example of this. That in it self is is more horrific than being physically accosted by the cult in my opnion. The devotion of such intensive pure hate to attack and demean people who at one time were not the enemies of the cult is aimed at current members to keep them in line as well. If you still stick around after you went through the hate of Duggan and Kronberg, then you have pretty much show the world what type of slavish and twisted delusionary devotion to the cult you really have.
This is a hard core collection of fanatical and frenzied cultists left who oversea the broken down deadenders who have no where to go and just accept things the way they have for decades. Shadock mentioned this in how your life in the LC and LYM is one of a daily assault on your critical thinking and having your doubts overpowered with the endless mobes and hysteria.
The potential for violence is there as the documented delusions, lies, dirty tricks , thievery, scams go hand in hand with the documented violence done by the LC. What happened to Jeremiah Duggan may not be the rule, but the inevitable outcome of this world where the perfect storm of a Brit who is a Jew who asked the wrong questions and was in Tavistock may have been the trigger for this volatile action in Germany.

On the money this is a no brainer. Lyn controls every thing and his word is final, like a gangster operation. Just try to spend a dime on something besides what is "approved". The money now is far, far less than our peak years. A 125 K to 150 K a week may seem like a lot, but that is covering several offices, a few hundred people, every bill as well as Lyn, Helga and whomever is still being sent weekly cash like maybe Carpet.
To give you an idea of how bad this is, use an inflation calculator to compare our peak earnings in 1984 to today's relative value when inflation is included.
If we made in 1984 $500,000 dollars a week.
In 2007 you need $1,028,164.45 to be equal.
The current LC makes around a $125,000 in a slow week.
IN 1984 dollars that would be @ $60.787.94 a week.
7 to 10 million may seem like a lot a year, but the expenses chew this up which is why if you can avoid paying out FICA, insurance, minimum wage you get to keep a good chunk.
200 members IF they made the minimum wage which can vary by local means nearly 3 million in wages alone on top of nearly $250,00 in SSI matching payments alone. You can see why setting up as a cult allows you to not have to pay people, taxes and other expenses as the gov tends to look the other way.
Feeding Lyn is one thing yutes, but you have to work to feed his delusions which cost a hell of a lot more. What will Phil and Harley have to say about you when you leave?
I wish to add one thing to what BorisMaglev wrote. Larouche is very tall in comparison to most members. If he was 5'1" I do not think the effect would be the same as a father figure in person. Many, many members I know spent thier time seeking Lyn's approval on what ever was their project or action in a father figure setting than in a professional setting like a business proposal.

04-22-2008, 09:25 PM

shadok

To localgreek

Quote:
Originally Posted by localgreek
Maybe the truth is you went in voluntarily, and then the involuntary coercion started ever so slowly, almost imperceptably.

Steven Hassan, with all his decades-long experience dealing with hundreds of cults (including this one) explains that people don't join cults, they are recruited.
The mind control starts when somebody believes s/he joined freely when in fact s/he was recruited.

Quote:
Originally Posted by localgreek
Tell me something: if a person leaves this cult, are they threatened?

Not to my knowledge. In my case (and others that i know), I just left. Period. They kept sending me the briefings and EIR hoping I would change my mind.
The cult is a mental prison. In other words we hold the keys to get out all the time: in our head. Once the decision is taken, there is nothing they can do.
Ironically what helped me to get out was... Lyn! When he once wrote about the "sovereignty of human mind". I said to myself "yep! you're right. I have a sovereign mind and there is nothingyou can do about it!!" :D

04-22-2008, 10:00 PM

borisbad

My departure is similar to Localgreek's. Although I harbored disagreements with the org. for years before I left in the late 80s, I finally decided to quit. Since I had kept a part time job throughout, and didn't have to rely on living on a stipend, and had outside ties to the job market, my transition may have been easier than others. Some members who quit would be considered "periphery", they remained readers or subscribers, potential fund raiser donees, and otherwise treated as supporters like members of the NDPC, and other front groups. I still got subscriptions to NS, and other writings after I left and even attended a nat'l conference, even though I had written a resignation letter outlining only one of the many reasons for my departure. Then I just decided to halt contact.
Others leave on a more hostile basis and they are treated as "agents", enemies, Zionists, or whatever other description the org. decides to use at the moment. Usually, as far as I know, the main threat against them would be to be denounced among remaining members, maybe have some dirty tricks operation run against them, but no outright threats of violence that I was aware of.

04-23-2008, 12:06 AM

localgreek

household slaves What information is there about Helga? She must get to enjoy a nice lifestyle unlike the slaves.
And what about Larouche's household slaves--aside from security, how many household servants would he have. Where does he live? What kind of residence? I keep asking this.
One comment about the use of the name Lyn. I note that Larouche is referred to as Lyn. This strikes me as inappropriate. He is the leader of a very dangerous cult. Lyn is a feminine name, the consonants are all soft. Why do people, at least here, persist in calling him this way. The name Lyn sort of softens him and there is nothing soft about him.
As for his cash, thanks for the information. I have to suspect that an individual of his ilk would have salted and stashed lots of money somewhere.

04-23-2008, 12:30 AM

scrimscraw

Lynt

Quote:
Originally Posted by localgreek
One comment about the use of the name Lyn. I note that Larouche is referred to as Lyn. This strikes me as inappropriate. He is the leader of a very dangerous cult. Lyn is a feminine name, the consonants are all soft. Why do people, at least here, persist in calling him this way. The name Lyn sort of softens him and there is nothing soft about him.

I think the Lyn designation has just stuck from the days when his "party name" or nom de plume was _Lyn Marcus_. Plus, it is simpler to type than Lyndon. ;)

04-23-2008, 02:36 AM

xlcr4life

Local Greek,
You will be eventually reading the trial testimony fro Virginia which documents pretty nicely how Club Ibykus was set up. This was the 130 acre farm outside of Leesburg. Helga had a smaller version of this in Germany complete with guards/servants and tons of money spent on things like barbed wire strung on the roof and a special security Merceds Benz which I think was armored to a degree. One day these dopes got a flat tire on the Autobahn and turned it into an assasination attempt complete with darts shot at over a 150 KMH by a hit team. The real story as told to me was that Helga needed a good assasination plot story to make herself look important to the US org. Dopes like Phil and other NCs should have learned some German. The staff of Helga would joke about how the USA org is the fundraising arm of the Germans, which is where the real work is done.
The real work was carrying Helga's bags from shopping trips to Saks and other fine stores. German security hated the US Pontiac Bonneveilles because the trunks did not hold as many packages as the German security Mercedes Benz held. The US security teams did not like Helga at times because her legendary beer farts in the Pontiac Bonnevilles would stay in the upholstery much to the chagrin of Zeke.
Now that I think about it, there is a report done on the German org by a security specialist which may be on LarouchePlanet.info . I don't know if is in English yet. The report describes Helga's entourage and how they were ready to machine gun some people who were walking towards Helga's estate.

The reason Lyn will go down in history as a madman is because he really does believe that he is part of a secret group of "elites" which runs the country. Lyn does believe that there is a Privy Council" that runs the USA and they solicit his brains for solutions whichis why he writes so many multi hundred page reports which used to be made into pamphlets. He has told this to a few NCs who usually quit after finally seeing how insane this all is.
I doubt that there is a secret treasure because that would imply some type of pragmatic thinking. What to me is more plausible is that Lyn is so nuts that he spent over 250 dollars in tyring to prove to the world that he is a genius who can save them. If Lyn had a billion, he would have spent that and still starved the cult.
This is a guy who was understood by scam artists much better than any of us. They took him , Jeff and Paul for over 13 million by feeding Lyn, Jeff and Paul these delusions over several years. Carpet came around and continued the fun for several more years at 2 to 5 K a week. Lyn can figure out if Jeff and Paul set him up and made their own deals. Keep in mind that Jeff and Paul tried to convince Lyn that he needs to go to prison to be safe from assasination attempts and their "secret contacts" in the CIA told them so!
The reason some of us refer to Larouche as Lyn is because for members still in, that sort of shows that many of us are the real deal and know what and who we are talking about.
Thus, if we say "Hey Dennis, did you enjoy what Lyn wrote about Obama" or Hey Barbara, can you read what Lyn wrote about Obama to Zeke when he comes home from ferrying Medicare patients around leesburg", it shows that we know quite a bit more than we write about.
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

04-23-2008, 06:06 PM

localgreek

[quote=xlcr4life; writes:
The real work was carrying Helga's bags from shopping trips to Saks and other fine stores. German security hated the US Pontiac Bonneveilles because the trunks did not hold as many packages as the German security Mercedes Benz held. The US security teams did not like Helga at times because her legendary beer farts in the Pontiac Bonnevilles would stay in the upholstery much to the chagrin of Zeke.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Localgreek: Question: When the women saw the quality of clothes on Helga, did they not get irritated, did they not smell something rotten in the state of Laroucheland?
Do you think she is mad too? Or just an opportunist of the savvyest sort?
What is her relationship with Larouche if they live apart so much? Your comments about Larouche are interesting, the ones about his delusions of grandeur. He very obviously has a very serious personality disorder. You know this is quite evident when you see the guy speak.
Thanks for clarifying to me the use of the word "Lyn." Nevertheless, sure doesn't suit him.
Do you think that there are some serious mentally ill people there in the cult? Or is it that they just became sick, like the California court suggested. Why is Larouche attacking the Leesburg group?
I see that on the April 14 briefing the cult leader attacks families again:
here are some gems. If anyone can explain the code of all this, much appreciated. I found this briefing on one of the sites. Quotes are random not in the order they appeared in the text.
"...family members...censor what you do. They put pressure on you,..."
"...the operation of the phone teams, stinks....The Boomer side is vey poor performing on this stuff....
"It's a boomer probe,. it's opportunism."
"...when you get...into the Leesburg office, then you get into the snake's nest..."
"we have a kind of living dead phenomenon around Leesburg..."
"we have some members who are sick. Mentally ill, and they have these kinds of beliefs."

----------------------------------------------------------------
Localgreek: How do people take this stuff?

04-23-2008, 10:25 PM

borisbad

Lyn, or Lyndon, never gave one good sh*t about the quality of life of the membership or even the NC and NEC except for perhaps a chosen few. To him they were only drones to be exploited in the interest of the cause, so whether he made $250 million or a billion it was all to the greater glory of LaRouche for feuhrer, and the peons would continue their labors at the same rate of stipend. Things like cars in the locals were subjected to, what Rosa Luxemburg would call primitive accumulation, in other words run them into the ground, drop them whenever there was no further value, and usually run out on whatever terms were left on their leases or finance agreements. Same thing with rents, equipment like that used by PMR etc.
Most of the members I knew never got to see how "the other half lived" at Ibykus Farms or anywhere else and of course the usual explanation was that these dachas were necessary for "security" reasons.
I think Helga was always generally disliked in the US organization, and I have no idea how she was viewed in the European membership other than to reflect that the majority of leaders of the European org. resigned a little over a year ago, I think before the Ken Kronberg tragedy in the US.

04-24-2008, 04:42 AM

eaglebeak

This and That Yes, the European leadership resigned--or was forced out, since Lyn expelled or suspended Uwe Friesecke--in the fall of 2006, about six months before Ken Kronberg died.
But the European leadership had been disaffected long, long before that. It was said that they had come to loathe Helga, but I cannot confirm that, only assess its likelihood.
2. Someone--perhaps localgreek?--was recently reflecting on the impact on others of the deaths of Ken Kronberg and Jeremiah Duggan--on Ken's and Molly's son, on Jerry's mother--the far-reaching consequences of LaRouche's monstrosity.
The effects on the immediate families were devastating, and they reached far beyond that. About eight or nine former employees of PMR, now working in another print shop in the area, commemorated the anniversary of Ken's death with a card to his widow--certainly an indicator of how fondly they remember Ken as a colleague and a boss.
(Interestingly, though, Molly told me she didn't hear from a single soul still in the organization. There's an irony here, or maybe just an obscenity.)
One wonders, a year after Ken's death, how it's going with Nancy. Or Dennis Small. Or Jeff. And of course, one wonders how it's going with Tony Papert.
Somehow, one doesn't wonder how it's going with Lyn. Anyone who reads the briefing can see what's up with him.
3. With the spread of LaRouche's racist remarks about Obama, I also wonder if Dennis Speed or Zeke Boyd is ever going to quit the org.
After years of being in "Security," being a "bodyguard," being held up as a tough-guy-for-LaRouche--and, of course, being on the NC--Zeke was smashed by Lyn in 1984 when he was thrown off the NC for the supposed legal "sabotage" of wife Barbara.
For Zeke, this was a humiliating, devastating blow. Off the NC--out of Security--off the bodyguard roster--banned from traveling with Lyn--it was, in effect, a terminal blow, one from which Zeke has never recovered.
In fact, apart from a few "assignments" Barbara has given him, Zeke has done next to nothing in the org ever since, although he is still, consciously at least, totally loyal to Lyn.
Likewise for Dennis Speed--Lyn has been slapping him around for years, especially over the central issue of fundraising. As far back as the New York trial (1989), it was common knowledge that Dennis bullied his phone team unmercifully, to avoid being flayed alive by Lyn.
Lyn's abusive behavior, Helga's insidious and invidious reverse racism (most grotesquely on display with Amelia Robinson, whom Helga claimed as her "adoptive mother" and whom she manipulated shamelessly with unctuous flattery, endless trips to Europe, etc.; but also on display in the European Labor Committee's position that the only good Americans were black Americans)--being black in the Labor Committee was never easy.
The Labor Committee's polemics against racism had a curious way of looking like racism (see the Jazz Campaigner).
And now, as the clock runs out, we see Lyn for what he always was: Racist. Anti-Semite. Misogynist. African-American members, Jewish members, women members--what are you all still doing with this dreadful old man?

04-24-2008, 04:48 AM

eaglebeak

Correction to a Previous Post In my post about a radical left group descending into savagery (that would be the Labor Committee, although "radical left" is way too normal for what it is now), I think I might have mistated the dates of the Leesburg raid of October 1986.
I think the raid was October 6-7, not October 5-6.
The hilarity is that those dates were supposed to be imprinted on the Collective Brain of the Labor Committee.

Someone, somewhere--Nancy? Ed?--still has and wears a Leesburg raid tee-shirt.
Ask to see it, kids.

04-25-2008, 04:44 AM

candor

April 24, 2008 (LPAC)--In a statement released today, former Democratic Presidential candidate [isn't that "former Democratic Presidential precandidate?"] and the world's leading economist [wow] Lyndon LaRouche [what happened to the Hermyle, Jr.?] declared that the Democratic Party should stop promoting former vice-president Al Gore [they are?], now.
``Al Gore is promoting outright genocide through his advocacy of biofuels and the global warming fraud [all this promoting], at precisely the moment of food shortages and growing famine around the world, [only seasoned LaRouchites can fill in the logical gaps] LaRouche said. ``The Party must dump him from any kind of spokesman role, immediately. ["Betty, get Dean on the line. LaRouche declared to us we gotta - how did he put it - we gotta dump Gore from any kind of spokesman role."]
``Gore should be allowed to keep his party membership, ["Damn it! Betty, get Dean back. Gore can keep his Party membership."] LaRouche added, ``but he should not be promoted. [Again with the promotions.] His current role calls up memories of the Democratic nomination fight of 1932, with Gore currently playing the part of Morgan banking agent John Raskob, who did his best to prevent the nomination of Franklin Roosevelt. Of course, Howard `Scream' and others are competing with Gore for this filthy role. [Dean is competing with Gore and others to stop Roosevelt? Is this like fantasy baseball?]
``Let the fight for the nomination continue, LaRouche concluded, ``but remove Al Gore from the picture, now. [OK. "Gore, you're out. Take your lock box and go home."]

04-25-2008, 05:03 AM

boomer70

Candor,
where did the gem appear?

04-25-2008, 05:07 AM

boomer70

Quote:
Originally Posted by candor
but remove Al Gore from the picture, now.''

or i'll kill your cats.

Candor,
where did you find this gem?

04-25-2008, 11:20 AM

candor

boomer70,
here you go:
http://www.larouchepac.com/news/2008/04/24/larouche-democratic-party-should-stop-promoting-al-gore.html
There are a number of wacky declarations from April 23-24 listed here:
http://www.larouchepac.com/news

04-25-2008, 07:29 PM

howie

There you can find oh-so-brilliant analyses such as, in an article which ties Obama as seemingly purely a product of the Rockefellers:
Historically, the Rockefeller family has been a central organizer of the financier faction which took Chicago from Lincoln nationalism and made it a center of the British fascist policy outlook.
And they are so in love with their street theater (and Love of Repressive Authoratarian regimes who engage in the proper "Development"):
http://larouchepac.com/news/2008/04/23/humor-way.html
The one I found most amusing was his insertion of the 1986 Illinois primary victories into Obama mechinitions, the plot which pulled Adlai Stevenson III adrift from his Larouchite Lietenant Governor running mate.
http://larouchepac.com/news/2008/04/24/obamas-manager-told-stevenson-quit-dems-over-larouche.html

04-25-2008, 07:30 PM

xlcr4life

1 Attachment(s) What information is there about Helga? She must get to enjoy a nice lifestyle unlike the slaves
Helga is a smart woman, she knew the money was going to be with Larouche from day one. According to some former members who were familiar with the German LC, Helga would swoon about how Lyn was her King Kong .and she was his Fay Ray. Some people here can tell about the whole Helga-Uwe F-Lyn adventures in Germany when the ELC was being formed. EVERY leader in Europe had to undergo BP sessions with Lyn and it kept people in line for decades. Europe had their pown brainwashing stories for their members as well.
If you were a lucky female member, you got to get away from the madhouse and go to Saks for a day. What I can tell you from other regions is that Helga's shopping trips were not discussed or mentioned as 5 bucks a day was the going LC wage in the 1980s. Lyn's expense were always covered by the black hole of "Security". members assigned to Lyn or Helga basically lived off of the table scraps. Helga was hated becuase she would treat her dogs better than members. There is a story about her being at Ibykus and objecting to hungry members eating leftovers in the kitchen because she wanted the scraps fed to her dogs.

"...family members...censor what you do. They put pressure on you,..."
This is what I call a cheap parlor trick. Lyn has several variations of this which have appeared over the years, er decades."mother's fears" started this off where new LCers were told that their mothers whore imagery is what is keeping you from being a potent organiser. This continued from organising into fundrasing where your mother is keeping you from raising all of that loot to buy more cases of Rheingau.

"...the operation of the phone teams, stinks....The Boomer side is vey poor performing on this stuff....
Lyn is facing a crisis where the same phone team members have been doing the same thing for decades and decades. Every day you march into that office and get fed another end of the world briefing by a crazed NC who wil be ripped a new A Hole by Lyn in the briefing if the quota is not met. As older memebrs die off the cult reached a point where it had to take the yutes out of doing cartoons into making some serious money. You send some older fundraisers into field to teach them a lesson that being in the streets is worse than being indoors on a phone. The yutes then learn that the ticket to paradise is raising money. The NCs have been in this rut their entire lives. Lyn has to browbeat the boomers while praising the their replacements. One would suspect that placing a sign in German which says "Working to make the quota will make you free" is not too far off the course.
"It's a boomer probe,. it's opportunism."
Everything Lyn does, writes and says is to fool the new recruits into thinking that if it were not for the older members who let him down and surrendered to their fears, he would be king of the universe. The boomers were fine untill there were enough new LYM to replace anyone who cost too much money or just burnt out.
"...when you get...into the Leesburg office, then you get into the snake's nest..."
Members there for the most part knew Ken Kronberg for decades. A year later and after numerous sick memos and writings by Lyn about Ken and Molly, people are dazed. Younger LYM have no idea who Ken was and it is by design to keep it that way. There are probably things said and done by Lyn's deadender leaders which we have not heard about. What is happening is that older members are giving hints that they need to get out of this nut house. Don't underestimate LCers doing that. In the 1980s we had many cases of leaders who were on their way out who would tell people they were friendly with to start looking for a job and get out of here as they were themselves getting ready to leave. We had entire intell sectors vanish and no one figured it out as the leaders themselves who were supposed to be figuring this out and reporting to Lyn were gone .
"we have a kind of living dead phenomenon around Leesburg..."
That is just Lyn reading factnet.org or Barbara reporting to him what we have been writing about. For years we have described how if you go back to Leesburg after leaving many years ago you will always notice a current member cause they look so old, weatherbeaten and in the same clothes from when you left. Larouche zombies if you will, but instead of looking for brains they hunt for liquor bottles.
"we have some members who are sick. Mentally ill, and they have these kinds of beliefs."
Lyn's whole life has been as an expert on psychoanalysis. He is compelled to do this on everyone to prove that they and not him are the crazy ones. You absolutely can not have any members think about why their friends left the LC and are doiing so great. You can not have doubt among members about Lyn's sanity. Above all, you can not have members figure out that the whole thing is a bad joke designed not to succeed. Leesburg and a typical LC/LYM soup kitchen office is a sort of Bizarro world where their own laws work in a way to feed into further lunacy by the previous "proofs".

Up next will be further coverage of how the cult does PR for oppressive regimes.
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

04-25-2008, 10:33 PM

borisbad

I was trying to opst an attachment photo but was unable to figure out how to do it. xlcr4life pls advise how you got the attachments on your msg.

04-25-2008, 11:47 PM

localgreek

hierarchy Thank you again for so much interesting information. However, for outsiders like me, perhaps it might be useful the odd time to just write out what some of the acronyms stand for: NC, ELC, BP session. I figured out LC is labor committees, and LYM must be larouch youth movement.
The other thing I am wondering about is the power structure. Who is the right hand of Larouche? What does the ladder of authority figures look like? Is it permitted here on this site to list the names of these people?
From reading other posts on this site here, I have understood that the rent is paid by the cult. Is the telephone paid by them too? How much would a telephone hack get for food? What about someone who writes ariticles sometimes?
I have noticed that the longer the person is in this cult the more unattractive they seem to become. Maybe it is because of the cheap clothes, the poor food, and the exhaustion they are subjected to. They also look sort of weird in their facial expressions. They also look older beyond their years. I have also noticed that there is a common look to the cult members. Perhaps I am wrong, but it seems this way to me.
Is there nothing legal that can be done for poor Ken's family?

04-26-2008, 06:57 AM

xlcr4life

Quote:
Originally Posted by howie
There you can find oh-so-brilliant analyses such as, in an article which ties Obama as seemingly purely a product of the Rockefellers:
Historically, the Rockefeller family has been a central organizer of the financier faction which took Chicago from Lincoln nationalism and made it a center of the British fascist policy outlook.
And they are so in love with their street theater (and Love of Repressive Authoratarian regimes who engage in the proper "Development"):
http://larouchepac.com/news/2008/04/23/humor-way.html


This is too funny for anyone who was in the LC in the 1970s. Lyn has come full circle with the cult and is reviving the Rockefellers? What we did back then was called "peeling away the layers of the onion" when we dropped one boogeyman and went on to another.
it went like this. Early SDS LC was all about the CIA and Nixon, since that was where the yutes were back then to harvest. Did you know that we had 8 or so LC members crash and disrupt a Congressional hearing about Watergate back then? When we moved from campuses to factories we discovered that our best contacts were all into John Birch type material and we now "discovered" that Rocky and his brothers superceded the CIA because they now ran the CIA and through that controlled the ghettos, counterculture the left etc.
The Rockefellers then were downgraded as the British and Zionists became the enemy. The Brits were an important part of the master plan via Tavistock and MI fill in the blank. The Brits now controlled the world but wait there's more! The Brits inherited all of this from the Venetians who went back to the Aristotelians who go back to Mesoptamia .
The KGB comes in and runs the Dem Party with assistance from the Brits to take over the world for the New Dark ages.
Hey speaking of New Dark Ages. The joke in Leesburg is that the new LYM card table shrines attacking Obama have Kinko reprints of Lyn's memo about Obama and his ancestors as well as signs with "Lyn says stop The New Darkey Ages" . LaroucheTown residents, don't get mad at us for joking around. How did we know that the devil in our laptops would be way more effective in spreading Lyn's gospel than a 150 of you being whipped by Phil and Harley. You should be thanking us for getting Lyn some important press coverage .
The bottom line in all of this lunacy is that each change in a new set of villains does not have any members asking about what happened to the old cast of villains. Lyn's cheap parlor trick is to make the next set a "breakthrough" in discovery which simply means that ypu will be calling up or going to fundraise from a different target group. If you dig deep enough into the LC you find that Lyn and security usually purloined most of this from whomever they were meeting with at the time to get into their graces. If you meet an Indian who has some interest in Vedic history who has some money and influence, than by God Vedic history will be part of the conspiracy. You want leftists? Than we are leftists. You want conspiracy buffs with credit cards, then we are psuedo right wingers.
The joke in the LC when I was in was wondering when Lyn would finally find a "Unifying Conspiracy Field Theory" to make this all easy to explain on a phone fundraising call.
No wonder the LYM web site has all of that Rocky Lit on the site in PDF form. This is so dopey that it deserves a future graduate level study on how Lyn celebrated EarthDay by recycling old Rocky conspiracies for new college drop outs to save trees. The last of the NC trash can relive their youth in the LC by telling adventure tales of fighting "The Rockefellers" to the new yutes when they were their age and just dropped out of college.
Lyn has to crack up at how easy this. I know I do.
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

04-27-2008, 08:10 PM

eaglebeak

Slug This Here we have Part 3 of Lyn's April 12 "Saturday Dialogue" with the "youth." (I believe, by the way, that "youth" now extends up to about 35.) We begin where we left off—with an attack on Editorial.

NORTH AMERICAN OPERATIONS BULLETIN
MONDAY, APRIL 15, 2008
Exerting Command in Warfare

…LAROUCHE: Yeah, the Editorial department designs the content of the publication by assigning the composition of who writes to the Editorial department, not the organization. And the Editorial department is the most backward part of the organization, right now.
JEFF: I mean this week, we actually, because of even the initial reviving of the sector work, there were certain stories that were followed through and we knew very clearly what was going to be written and who the author was going to be. [Nice work, Sgt. Steinberg. After 40 years at this, you knew who the author was going to be.]
LAROUCHE: But the problem still remains, the problem is, the top-down conception.
JEFF: Yes.
LAROUCHE: See, getting decent articles is not the problem. Yeah, it is a problem, but it's not the problem. [Whatever you say is the problem, you can count on Lyn to say that's not the problem. Experiment with it sometime.]
The problem is, what is a top-down conception of the {ideas which are leading the organization, which the organization is introducing to lead society}?
JEFF: Right.
TONY: [Papert] See, someone under the influence of the Molly-coddlers openly—
LAROUCHE: That's where I come in—
TONYU: This person openly contested that. [Can you believe it? Someone openly disagreed.] We raised that, and we discussed that at a meeting—and it was openly contested. Someone said, in effect, "Yes, there should be thematic unity, but there should also be diversity of appeal." I mean, you were there.
LAROUCHE: And that's crap.
TONY: So, I mean, it's a question which we should frankly discuss and resolve. And it's not resolved—maybe it's resolved through guerrilla warfare. [Tony the terrorist.] And I think we should go and see what various people have been assigned to write, and what other things are going on, to change the issue [Tony wants a witch-hunt against Nancy and Editorial. He's run them before, under Lyn's aegis: against the Finance Office—against Uwe Friesecke, Linda Frommer, Fernando, even Lonnie Wolfe. And in spades against Ken Kronberg, the Shakespeare work, the "Straussians"….]
[crosstalk]
LAROUCHE: No, but I don't doubt that it does happen. It happens by indirection.
JEFF: Yeah sure.
LAROUCHE: All things happen by indirection. [A classically LaRouchean dictum—utterly meaningless.] It happens by other members of the Editorial staff. It's a network operation. A person under the influence of the Molly-coddlers is aware of it, but doesn't tell {you} about it. And it sneaks in that way. A lot of the stuff sneaks in. [Stuff is sneaking in all the time from everywhere. It's a dangerous world outside the Basement.] The point is, the question of leadership! And the question is, what ideas lead the organization? And those ideas which are not leading the organization {should not be published}! [Because we believe in Platonic dialogue here.] And things which neutralize or contaminate otherwise useful things, should not be published! About 30% of things that are published in EIR, should never have appeared in EIR [Closer to 100%]. And that's the reason. I think the idea of "diversity," the idea of learning to "go along to get along" within the organization {stinks!} And you've got to have a leadership rule, which says, "This is an organization of principles. It's not a debating society, of different contending ideas." [That's for sure.]
TONY: I mean, my view—well, forget it, I don't want to make a long speech. But in my view, the whole thing goes back a long way, which is , you know, you can't really give out money, but you give out marquee space to people. Right?
LAROUCHE: Yeah, yeah.
TONY: You've been friendly to me, you've been my friend, you get onto the marquee, the movie marquee.
VOICE: The what?
TONY: The stars listings. You know, there used to be movie theaters, movie marquees, with the names of stars: "In this issue is so and so, three stars." Or someone will spend a whole morning, lobbying about some article or something or other, which should appear at some point.
LAROUCHE: The problem is, you don't run an organization on that basis, if you're serious. You run an organization and publications, in order to lead society around the necessary ideas, and most of the things people want to debate shouldn't be debated. They're a waste of time. And they bring in things which are a waste of time.
No, it's slop. And the whole thing, and there is an essential dishonesty in the entire Editorial department, which is not a matter that you can settle by debating it, or reforming people. It's corrupt.
It's like the whole thing with slugs. The way the slug problems arose, in terms of the site, was corruption. People said, "If I can't get my way, and control this, you're not going to publish!" You're not going to get anything. And you saw the sudden declivity. Now what had happened is that, when we're up to 20 to 30 slugs a day, sometimes that was overheated. {But!} The point was that—when the corrective went in—was to suffocate everything. Which was stupid! And it was intimidation of the youth on that, by some of the Boomers, that did it. They didn't want to get into that fight.
And the point is, I exist. [That's the rumor, anyway.] I am always willing to get into that fight. And I will fight, and people don't like it, when I fight. And I intend they shouldn't like it when I fight, because that's the way they will be deterred from doing it. And it should come to me, on questions like this, on policy questions, 'cause I'm the one person who will {fight}. I will not put up with it.
MALE: It will be de-turd, huh?
LAROUCHE: It will be de-turd. [Laughter] And I provide the deturdgent [laughter] Get them to clean up their ass!
No, you got to do it that way…. Look, you got the thing in Purcellville now. You've got the relationship from Purcellville to here and the Basement, you've got the faculty process, which is evolving, which is the most important channel—it's not just discussing scientific topics, it's getting the minds of the organization functioning in a coherent way!
MARK S: [Preamble edited out.] … But the question is, you've got people in the organization, who are capable of doing this, people in the Basement now, people who have been in the Basement, who both {can} write, and can get the top-down perspective…. So how do we activate the capable portions of the Youth Movement who really know now to do this?
LAROUCHE: Concretely, we're now doing a project, which as I said, will probably take into June to get the job done. Apart from people who thought they could get it faster. But the problem is, we've discussed with people in the Basement, several times and occasions recently, is what the whole operation of ides of our organization, is typified by what we did in terms of the {1923 Firewall}….
[The material in brackets synopsizes LaRouche's utterances. The material not in brackets is direct quotes. First: The History of the United States as such. Modern European Civilization.]
Ancient Classical Greek and so forth civilization—which is what I've been writing about. In other words, what I've been writing about, that someone under the influence of the Molly-coddlers puts at the back of the book , whenever possible, is exactly what should be at the front of the book.
[Lincoln vs. the Brits. Anglo-Dutch Liberal. Sarpi.
John Quincy Adams. The Civil War. Otto von Bismarck. The Brits shot McKinley. Teddy Roosevelt. Woodrow Wilson. The White House. Graham Lowry. Medieval history. Charlemagne.]
Charlemagne is defeated after he's dead. Defeated by the combination of the Byzantine Empire, and then what followed the Byzantine Empire in the emergency of what became the Venetian-Norman system. So, you have that development.
That leads into later developments, in which the new empire becomes a threat. The answer to the new empire becomes, then, the transcontinental railways system.
[From Charlemagne to the B&O in two paragraphs. So British respond to destroy U.S. with Civil War. Mendeleyev, Bismarck, Berlin-Baghdad Railway. Assassination of Sadi Carnot. British worse than Hitler.]
The British citizens become monkeys. They're well on their way to achieving that status—look at their prime ministers. Monkeys! No, this kind of thing….
But this involves—I know this stuff. I know it very well. My problem is very few people know it otherwise…..

Comments.
1. Lyn and Tony gang up on Nancy again. Aside from the fact that Tony hates Nancy, and that Lyn likes beating her up, she is held to be responsible for Ken and Molly Kronberg, and she'll never get past that. That's the Molly-coddlers motif.
In the summer of 2006, when Lyn was bouncing Ed from the NEC, I witnessed a conversation in which Molly said to Nancy, "Why do you care so much what Lyn thinks? Why don't you just tell him to go screw himself?" I have never seen anyone look as incredulous as Nancy did then.
But that is the point, Nancy: Why don't you tell him to drop dead?
2. Enjoy Jeff's responses—he is laughably perfect as a Yes-man. Note how they run: "Yes. Right. Yeah sure."
3. Also note Lyn's psychoanalytically exact statement of his reality: "And the point is, I exist. I am always willing to get into that fight. And I will fight, and people don't like it, when I fight. And I intend they shouldn't like it when I fight…."
Conversely, of course, Lyn can't stand it when other people fight him. He's deeply afraid of it. I'll bet you $50—try arguing with Lyn and watch him go bonkers. It will be worth the fifty bucks to you, for the entertainment value.
4. Best of all, the last six or seven pages of the "dialogue," condensed above and reflected in the bracketed material. As I say, from Charlemagne to the B&O in two paragraphs— through history on jet-skis. A free-associational feast: Don't ever let anyone tell you LaRouche isn't nutty as a fruitcake.

04-27-2008, 08:38 PM

eaglebeak

Ah, the Youth--Lyn Finally Finds a Use for Them Dear LYMers:
Do you realize that if your parents had been members of the Labor Committee, you wouldn't be here?
(Think about that the next time Lyn starts ranting about how Baby Boomer parents don't care about their offspring.)
Do you realize that when Lyn's first wife, Janice, had their son Danny, Lyn had a nervous breakdown and the marriage ended--because he couldn't take the presence of a child?
(Think about that during Lyn's rants, or perhaps while reading the startling self-revelatory Beyond Psychoanalysis.)
Do you realize that virtually every woman in the Labor Committee from the early 1970s through the 1990s--every woman who was fertile, that is--had at least one abortion?
Do you know that it sometimes took repeated "interventions" by the NEC and other "leaders" to force pregnant members to get abortions?
Do you know that in the 1970s Lyn declared that women want to have children only when they are tired of their husbands (a little autobiographical hysteria there)?
However, did you know that by the 1990s, he had refined that to declaring that women want to have babies only when they want to act infantile themselves?
Have you ever considered that maybe Lyn doesn't know that having babies is the way our species is reproduced?
Did you know that, although women in the Labor Committee were having abortions routinely, in the mid-1980s Lyn came to the position of opposing all forms of birth control for what we might call the "broad masses" of people?
And that meanwhile, the Labor Committee regarded abortion for its members as a form of birth control?
So that what he called genocidal in public was precisely the policy of the organization in private?
Have you ever considered the profound irony that the offspring Lyn had no use for when they were infants and children--if they managed to squeak by and live to grow up--became prime targets for the LaRouche Youth Movement?
And that the positions then switched--the children whose birth was previously regareded as tantamount to treason against LaRouche were now the ones he wanted, and their formerly important parents, the original members, the Baby Boomers, had now become the "useless eaters" and the saboteurs?
Say, did you know that, with Lyn's blessings, Nancy Spannaus ran for office in Virginia on a pro-life platform? You might want to have a far-ranging discussion about that with her one of these days.
The word you're looking for is "expediency." That's the hallmark of Lyn's moral makeup, and that's what has enabled him to adopt truly Schachtian policies against the useless old in his own org.
(Reference: The Schacht Campaigner. Borrow a copy from the Archives. Its analysis of the Nazis is grotesquely mechanistic, arguably anti-Semitic, and factually wrong, but it will be an eye-opener all the same.)

04-27-2008, 09:09 PM

howie

"This is not a debating society."
Isn't that a quotation which is sort of a big bugaloboo announcement from about 1974? Or is it one of those axiomatic statements suitable for framing?
Have you ever considered that maybe Lyn doesn't know that having babies is the way our species is reproduced?
We arrive at another bit of Larouchian contradiction and in the sickest of manners, Larouche seeing a whole lot of "Malthusian" environmental projects as efforts at "Population Control" and "Genocide" (hence Al Gore's Nazi Garden). Larouchies believe Larouche critics believe "There are too many people", and want to control that.
Kind of interest, we are at the 40 year anniversary of the Columbia University student strikes. The Pacifica Radio broadcast "Democracy Now" had a broadcast on this:
http://www.democracynow.org/2008/4/25/forty_years_after_historic_columbia_strike
We spend the hour with four of the strike leaders: Gustin Reichbach is now a New York State Supreme Court Justice; William Sales is now a professor at Seton Hall University; Tom Hayden is a former California state senator; and Juan Gonzalez, our own Democracy Now! co-host.
Which brings about a batch of interesting "Where are they Now" comparisons... In the contemporaneous news items of the time, people such as Tony Papert (http://www.columbia.edu/acis/history/1968/68-02.html ... bottom photograph, second from left), Edward Spannaus, Tony Chaitkin, and other people other readers of this know personally pop into the picture here and there.

04-27-2008, 11:15 PM

boomer70

Quote:
Originally Posted by eaglebeak
Did you know that, although women in the Labor Committee were having abortions routinely, in the mid-1980s Lyn came to the position of opposing all forms of birth control for what we might call the "broad masses" of people?

do you have a link for such a statement on birth control?

04-27-2008, 11:27 PM

boomer70

Quote:
Originally Posted by howie
Which brings about a batch of interesting "Where are they Now" comparisons... In the contemporaneous news items of the time, people such as Tony Papert (http://www.columbia.edu/acis/history/1968/68-02.html ... bottom photograph, second from left), Edward Spannaus, Tony Chaitkin, and other people other readers of this know personally pop into the picture here and there.

Vaguely on the same topic, during the years of my confinement ('73 - '79) I think there was what the initiates referred to as 'neutralizing.' The idea as best as I can figure was to destroy an individual's capacity to do politics outside the organization. There were members who were confined to drudge jobs, who the 'leadership' creatures knew would never function creatively inside the org', but who were kept around anyway to keep them from organizing outside the LC. Does anyone have more on this?

04-28-2008, 12:10 AM

boomer70

It just goes on forever. Check out:
http://www.larouchepac.com/news/2008/04/26/interim-lpac-report-u-s-2008-election.html
for an 'organizing' statement to the Clinton forces and the 'sane' portion of the electorate. It just goes on forever. It reminds me of Chuck Stevens who would constantly perform the same speech, no matter what you asked him. One of the features of the Hubrisness and his minions is the inability to interact with others, an inability which is given organizational form by edicts like, 'we are not a debating society,' and his comments on deviant writings in the April 15 wutchamacallit. The Hube is not scientist: true science seeks out contradictions to its hypotheses in its zeal for the truth.
PS. what is the story with the Hube and Hannah Arendt?

04-28-2008, 07:55 AM

earnest_one

C.b.s. Chuck Stevens?
I know/knew Chuck Stevens. He is/was a friend of mine. You, Sir, are no Chuck Stevens...
Nor is LaRouche, for that matter. Chuck is far more interesting, and can weave a string of "connecto" theory ten milky ways wide, and while eating a Mounds Bar too.
He doubles Lyn's hilarity, then cubes it, and then goes into N+1 mode till the sun rises ten times till Tuesday.
C.B.S should be filmed for posterity. He is the genuine article.
You kids out there should spend time with him. There is no one remotely like him in the world.

04-28-2008, 07:31 PM

boomer70

Regarding Chuck Stevens, my experience was that his 'communication' with others consisted of canned speeches and that he exemplified the parrots which contribute so much to the destructiveness of the org'. Larouche could not exist apart from this type and its deadening of the intellectual and moral environment with its constant dinning of the Hube's latest rhetorical whim.

04-28-2008, 09:23 PM

xlcr4life

Quote:
Originally Posted by borisbad
I was trying to opst an attachment photo but was unable to figure out how to do it. xlcr4life pls advise how you got the attachments on your msg.

There is sooo much to write about that I have to do this all in sections. We will start with pictures. Key principla to understand is that there is a limit to the size of the file on factnet.oreg when posting. Below the box where you post is a section called "manage Attachements". Click that on and i twill give you the limits to each file. Click on browse and you can search your computer for pictures or graphics to post.
What I do is based on what I have. If I find a picture on the web I save it to my computer and make a simple name for it. The file will usually be small enough when you get it from the web as it has been already resized. Once that pix is in your computer, you press upload and it will show up visible when you are logged in and as an attachement if just peruse the threads. I believe you have to be registered to be able to post pictures.
If you have a photo of LCers and anyhting of interest from your personal collevtion, you can scan them into a scanner but use a low resolution and make a file for it so you can upload it.
You can also send photos to Laroucheplanet.info as I think they would be interested in collections for their site. I would guess that they would resize them for the site and you could then place them in your computer as a low res file for placing here.
If anyone has other ways of placing files here, please share them.
Local Greek. Good idea of the acronyms. I will put somethng together for you and others. A sort of cult program guide.
We can sometimes forget that many readers here may not know the LC lingo. That is one of the hallmarks of a cult in creating an inhouse language of sorts for the members. Scientology uses "clear" while the LC uses "Unblocked" for example.
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

04-28-2008, 10:25 PM

earnest_one

1979 is early

Quote:
Originally Posted by boomer70
->Regarding Chuck Stevens, my experience was that his 'communication' with others consisted of canned speeches and that he exemplified the parrots which contribute so much to the destructiveness of the org'. Larouche could not exist apart from this type and its deadening of the intellectual and moral environment with its constant dinning of the Hube's latest rhetorical whim.

You are, of course, right -- in the main. But 1979 is a bit early; I met him some years later, after he had undergone various "troubles" inside the org.
CBS underwent considerable development and honed his skills to a very sharp point.
My point is that his oral "performances" (circa 1984 - 2007) are far more interesting than ANYTHING LaRouche has produced. In terms of connecto theory and weaving long, wild tales, LaRouche is a rank amateur compared to CBS.
That is why I recommend that the youth get out there and spend time with him. Why settle for a cheap import (Lyn) when you can experience the real American-made product (CBS)?
Here, of course, I refer to the science talk, not the brute force inane politics and/or psychology that is so destructive to anyone lured into the NCLC trap.
Forgive my "plug" but I actually think that the youth would see how truly bizarre LaRouche is, if they had some experiences with an exaggerated form of the phenomenon.
Finally, on a personal level, Chuck is, at heart, a very kind man.

04-29-2008, 07:34 AM

charltonrom

2 more cents Hello all, I am back for a post or two. Thanks especially to xlcr and eaglebeak for their tireless dedication to expose the crazed and kooky and damaging features of the organization. I encourage other ex-members, or current members, to come clean and air more dirty laundry.
I wanted to throw in my two cents again, to give my sense of what it's all about and why it still appeals to some. To review briefly, I was in the org from around the late 90's to about 2005. I just finished reviewing the briefings from the last couple of days, and let it be said: Lyn is still capable of generating discourse at truly voluminous rates. It is florid mania in his classic style, but he shows little sign of letting up. His demise is greatly exaggerated.
I think those youth who join and remain are probably like I was, naive idealists who see the world as a dangerous, possibly hopeless place; and Lyn is at least saying something about it, pointing to villains (spurious no doubt, but anyway targets: the oligarchy, the British) and offering up something in the way of a solution. Call it fascist, but a nuclear renaissance, an FDR-style infrastructure rebuild and renovated financial system, which has a historical and American-patriot resonance, has considerable appeal to quite a few.
I know it did for me---that is, until the Dark Side of the Force became manifest. Eventually one learns that Lyn's brilliance is a type of florid mania, perhaps with occasional shimmering glints of beauty; but these ride atop a vast body of ludicrous garbage and worse: repulsive hatefulness and exploitative megalomania. To top it off he hates faggots (or used to, until Harley started schmoozing with gay Dems in LA) and Israel---not just Jews, Israel specifically--- and has a history of shall-we-say odd remarks, and uncharitable statements regarding the lower orders/non-white races, as evinced by the latest Obama rant.
I wised up and got out but I can't deny I learned a lot, got to take some nice travels, and learned also about some tactical matters like organizing deployment logistics, which has proven useful in my post-org business life. Being a member of a "world-historical cadre force," as it was put to me, has an ego-boosting appeal, and can beat the job-search.
I still read up on the organization ( I can't read Lyn himself much anymore, it's too excruciating) because I wonder where the country and the world are going and whether we should go with McCain and stand down Iran and the mullahs or just let them proceed to subvert Iraq and prep up for their promised strike on Israel. I wonder whether there's any way out of the trap we seem to be in: let Iran have the bomb and use it, or pre-empt and risk global escalation. Either way seems a nightmare. The financial system seems a mess, the US is insolvent in the medium term due to aging population; if "the system" isn't bankrupt in the way Lyn puts it, it seems kind of bankrupt nonetheless. (Unless Ray Kurzweil is right: we may have a MILLION-FOLD improvement in technology in the next TWENTY years, if the trends of the last century continue. And if we don't have WWIII. http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0418/p09s01-coop.html)
Those drawn to Lyn are moths to the flame. He says a lot, a huge amount, he couches it in patriotic countenance; he speaks of profound topics, Gauss, Riemann, Kepler; he seems to present some kind of way forward; and until one learns that the majority of what he says is untenable crap and worse, his florid, manic brilliance compares favorably to one's own normal neural state, in respect of generating awe for a Superior Mind, who may just be sent by God to save humanity from the villainous Oligachic British, "our republic's traditional enemy," as they say over at Editorial.
Anyway he is a weird force, but a force nonetheless, and human beings display a real need for an Authority; naive idealists fall for such pretty readily. Soon I hope to review again some of the strange, specifically philosophical & historical beliefs of Lyn and his minions, some of the current doctrine/dogma/dogmess that serves as gruel-stock for the youth and the members who're still around.
charltonrom@gmail.com

04-29-2008, 06:35 PM

boomer70

Quote:
Originally Posted by charltonrom
I wonder where the country and the world are going and whether we should go with McCain and stand down Iran and the mullahs or just let them proceed to subvert Iraq and prep up for their promised strike on Israel. I wonder whether there's any way out of the trap we seem to be in: let Iran have the bomb and use it, or pre-empt and risk global escalation.

The choices you give are, I believe, Reesian choices, to use an old LC term. The real choice is for the US to end its occupation of the ME. If you keep poking at a hornets' nest, eventually it will sting you.

04-29-2008, 07:02 PM

xlcr4life

2 Attachment(s)

Quote:
Originally Posted by charltonrom
I wised up and got out but I can't deny I learned a lot, got to take some nice travels, and learned also about some tactical matters like organizing deployment logistics, which has proven useful in my post-org business life. Being a member of a "world-historical cadre force," as it was put to me, has an ego-boosting appeal, and can beat the job-search.

What should be examined is how Lyn's cheap parlor tricks work when you want them to work. You can learn a lot in the LC but that is relative to what is available for discovery out in the real world. I submit that most people who joined the LC are as you describe, but were interested in the same topics before they met up with the LC. The appeal of any similar group is the one box solution which wraps everything up nice and neatly without the requirement of critical thinking. You can look at a whole host of kooky groups and see the same formula. In a racist sect it does not matter what the race is of the joiner because the problem is the other race and the solution to any problem is always solved by getting the other race out of the way. Take any belief to the extreme and the same formula works by the persojn in charge.
After leaving the LC decades ago and engaging in problem solving at different levels you will find that solving even a simple problem takes a lot of back and forth when you involve tax payer's money, different social groups , budgets, laws and a whole host of other issues.
What makes the LC/LYM so much easier to look at by many of us earlier is that the solution to the problems you describe get solved in our former insular world as fantasy instead of actual action. The LC was described by someone earlier as on par with fantasy baseball and I find that to be right on target.
Lyn knows what to set as bait and there will be people to take it. Bait will never be something which repells but invites the future person to imagine that they wanted it. The early days in any cult are always fun and full of nice things as the process unfolds to basically remove critical thinking barriers to more and more lunacy where the end product is an insular world of obeying commands.
I do not think there has ever been a single problem or issue which we could never solve in the LC by publishing a pamphlet. Think about it. Lyn has solved in his mind every problem facing the human race from 7,000 BC to colonizing the universe 50 years from now. Go up the food chain in the LC and you get a variation of that mindset. There is one mini madman NC who used to answer every single question by someone with "It's simple" and ridicule you for asking it.
Think about how Lyn's cheap parlor tricks work. He tells you over and over that he does not want "factoids" get in the way of what the directive is. Lyn tells you that you are not in a debating society in the same way he told the early 1970s yutes that they were not in a debating society. It has always been like this and that is how you get LCers to commit criminal activities like Mop Up, matching fund hanky panky, skip on taxes and labor laws, credit card fraud, grand jury tampering by flying people out of the country, stealing the life savings of the elderly, skipping out on vendors and never questioning this.
The minute you begin to question any of what you read or hear or are taught, you are on your way out the door. We never had much success with recognised leaders in any field unless they were discarded or ignored by their peer group. We could do this with anyone from music, to forgotten African Americans to kicked out dictators. Meet them, inflate their egos, tell them the evil Brits caused their problems, call them humanists or Platonists, publish a book by them or about them , send them on speaking tours before adoring members and before you know it, Lyn has someone to praise him.
For a person who is running around the clock 24/7 with a never ending cacaphony of the world ending with no solution in site, it sure is easy to just accept our solutions, don't waste tiime asking questions or be bothered with factoids.
I read this latest from LPAC which was posted here.
http://www.larouchepac.com/news/2008/04/26/interim-lpac-report-u-s-2008-election.html
This is a cheap parlor trick and an example of lyn's delusions. Lyn writes this crap effortlessly because he trully believes that the super secret privy council secret society will use their decoder rings to read this and solve their problems. The LYM thinks that there is an audience for this not knowing that it all for them to think that they are doing something.
Lyn knows that no one on the LC/LYM will read this and question anything, but will be impressed with the ramblings of something which could eminate from a mental ward filled with Napoleans.
"This report has been prepared according to my responsibilities as a former U.S. Presidential candidate and leading economist. Thus, the report reflects the leading issues which will continue to plague the Democratic and Republican national campaigns through the entire Summer and into the November general election itself, and beyond that, too.
It is to be emphasized, that the unique importance of this report is embedded in my own unique competence as one who has repeatedly demonstrated himself, over decades, to be the most reliable long-term forecaster in those matters of outstanding importance in both international and national affairs, during decades in which most other forecasters have consistently failed, often utterly so. Therefore, that incompetence shown thus by my putative rivals in this field, is itself a crucial issue in these elections."

This is comedy, not an interim report kids. You have to imagine this being a scene in One flew over the Cukoos nest where someone reads this in a proper voice in an imaginary throne to an imaginary audience. In this case, the comedy comes to life as Lyn addresses the naive yutes who are infatuated with having solved the Earth's problems before Lyn kicks the bucket. Helga would make a great nurse Ratched.
We have a picture of this below.
The LYM have no idea of how Lyn uses one cheap parlor trick after another as he creates the mythology of being the world greatest economists who successfully predicted 45 of the last two slowdowns. Consider this:
"The included controlling factor in this forecast of mine, was focused on the folly of the U.S. post-war policy of shifting investment in transportation from rails to roads, which created the railway-crisis of the period of the negotiation of the proposed merger of the New York Central and Pennsylvania railway systems. There was never an actually rational reason for that geopolitically-motivated policy of destroying the more efficient U.S. transcontinental railway system for the inherently less efficient shift in replacing rail systems with long-distance highway transport of trucking and commuter auto traffic. An integrated system of modular truck-train transport should have, and could have been developed."

The folly was called the Interstate highway system and the trucking industry competed with railroads and had numerous advantages which included door to door service. The rail industry recovered when it figured out that it is in the transport business. The integrated system Lyn yaps about has existed for decades and is called Piggy Back freight and is the basis for containerised shipping which has exploded with world trade. The railways lost passenger service not because of a British conspiracy, but airplanes were faster . For the price of 10 miles of Maglev track you can finance a start up airline and fly people at three times the speed of a Maglev to any part of the globe. Duh.
When you stop doing critical thinking and asking questions, all of this garbage seems impressive as a card table shrine becomes your eventual destiny.
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

04-30-2008, 04:33 AM

eaglebeak

To the Ice Floes! Dear LYMers--
To continue my comments from above.
When the Boomer members, of which I was one, were young, LaRouche's big concern was to keep us from having children (or seeing our parents). In other words, he wanted to abstract us from the context of Family.
Very Stalinist, very Maoist, but not very human. Basically the way most cults are run--keep your captives disoriented by wrenching them out of any normative human setting.
So Lyn's idea, expressed fairly forthrightly in Beyond Psych and in his endless stupid sessions with the NEC, was that we would all sever our emotional ties to Family, and "cathect" to him instead. HE would become our father, our polestar, our god, our....
Whatever.
Now, this didn't always work. And generally, the people who stayed in touch with their families were the people who wound up having children.
But the advent of an embryo was regarded as a disaster. I was present in one discussion where Nancy Spannaus told a pregnant member that the greatest danger of childbearing was that her "priorities would change." That's for sure. Once you had a kid, your interest in Lyn generally waned. Oh, there are exceptions to the rule, but in general, those who had children would cheerfully sacrifice Lyn for their kids any day.
I know I would.
Nancy also, in that same conversation, said wistfully that if she hadn't had her children she could have been more like Helga. Hard to imagine anything more disturbed--who could possibly prefer not to have had their children? (except Lyn, that is.) And who on earth would want to be more like Helga?
I do think Nancy got over that, as she got to know Helga better.
Now, however, LYMers, it's the elderly Boomers who represent the drag on the org, not the danger of offspring (although when the LYM starts to have kids, look for Lyn to flip whatever remains of his wig).
Because the Boomers are old, and getting older. They're sick, and getting sicker. They need decent food, they need decent sleep, they need cars and flu shots and medical care and clothing.
And they have therefore become UNECONOMICAL. And that, boys and girls, is why Lyn wants to be rid of them. They cost too much. They eat too much. They need too much medical care.
They complain too much. They're not all starry-eyed, as once they were.
But above all--like their babies who were feared, hated, and aborted a generation ago--they COST TOO MUCH.
If every single one of them (a) dropped dead or (b) dropped out of the org tomorrow, Lyn would be perfectly jovial.
And that's the secret of old Uncle Lyn's deranged "polemics" against the Boomers, and the quixotic (ahem) move to Purcellville, and all the rest.
Today he tries to detach the youth from the Boomers, as once he tried to detach the Boomers from their families and from any thought of progeny.
The one invariant, the motivfuehrung, the leitmotif (this, being Wagnerian, will p**s Lyn off)--the one fixed point in a turning world--is Lyn Himself.
'We Don't Owe These People a Thing'
Lyn's tactic of driving out expensive, annoying older members started in earnest in roughly 1996. That was the year that stipends basically stopped getting paid.
It was another "big" LaRouche election year--I'm sure we all remember the tremendous splash his campaign made that year.
Well, perhaps not, but money was flushed away in the millions to put him on TV and this and that.
But the longtime members, the "lifers"? They were told to kiss off.
I was in a meeting with Nancy Spannaus and Dennis Small and a 23-year member about stipends. The member was told that her problem was that she was a "credit card addict." Dennis "shared" some made-up bull about how he had had that problem too, and how he'd kicked it. The member--and I--pointed out that her credit card was at the limit because she and her whole family (yes, she had kids) were living off it.
But she was told to deal with her credit card addiction. She couldn't get a stipend, she couldn't get a payment, she could only get a crazed Stalinist lecture from a crazed Stalinist (that would be Dennis).
She quit the following year.
I was in another meeting with Nancy and Dennis in 1996, with another longtime member. That member was told that Nancy had seen her husband coming out of Photoworks, a Leesburg photo shop. Nancy railed at the person about how her husband should have taken their pictures to Giant to develop, or KMart, or some other cheaper outlet.
Can you imagine? They couldn't get a stipend, they were starving (they had kids too), but the problem, according to Nancy Spannaus, the Demon Social Worker of Sycolin Road, was that they spent too much money getting their photos developed.
They quit that year. They didn't even wait for the following year.
1996-1997 saw a lot of longtime members drop out--many of them (at first) anguished at the thought of having to get jobs and leave their avocation. However, before long, they had miraculously adjusted and left the org cheerfully.
Good thing, too, because 1996 was also the year, as Nancy told me, that Lyn declared at an NEC meeting that "we don't owe these people a thing."
Not quite true, actually. The old fool owed them his life, his livelihood, whatever political chops he had ever had, his ability to get on TV and cavort (making Jeremiah Wright look like Solon)--he owed them his lavish lifestyle, his ability to run around the world and play statesman.
He owed them everything.
But Lyn didn't quite see it that way then, and he doesn't quite see it that way now.
The only difference between today's LYM and yesterday's Boomers is that today's LYM will outlive Lyn by decades and outlive the org while young and strong.
So, LYMers, prepare for a future without Lyn and the org, and don't let him manipulate him into being vicious to your elders. Just because they were vicious to their unborn children, is no reason for you to be guilty of the contemptible practice of elder abuse.

04-30-2008, 05:14 AM

Hank

Cause of mental problems? Hello,
Been reading some on this board, and find it rather shocking. A relative of a friend has recently "returned" from a long tenure with this group, missing some of his marbles.
I volunteered to post here as he is nervous about the possible repercussions for his cousin or family. (Since there are not that many left, no doubt they would recognize the story):mad:
So is there any possibility that this guy was given something to make him so forgetful and seemingly "blank"? He is totally not himself, but doctors can find no physical cause for it.He had written to his cousin back in early 2006, saying he was having trouble with his job due to math and memory problems and that his boss, Rick somebody, had "given him something" for it.
What would that have been I wonder?

04-30-2008, 05:23 AM

charltonrom

LYM, don't start using credit cards When I joined I had some work experience and a decent line of credit. I went in basically as a fanatic zealot. The first week in I remember hearing Nancy on a conference call saying that the financial situation was beyond dire. New Fed was constantly on the edge of cessation. It was a serious problem, intoned Lyn; we were going to lose our preferred-postage license, and the members' irresponsible behavior and nonchalant fundraising was to blame. Anyway I was gung-ho and slowly started living off my CitiCard. It got to the point that I was in effect subsidizing the operations of the local, buying supplies and even food on the card.
Part of the sobering up, in addition to recognition of the dark teeth behind the mask, was realizing my time was finite at that clip: I'd have to default if the pace of plastic-enabled life continued much longer. For a while I thought about it. We were after all saving the world; and the banks were gonna go anyway, right? So what's the harm in defaulting on 5 or 6 thousand, or, say, in not paying back your student loans, under these revolutionary circumstances? I recall the hoots of laughter from the phone team when I floated the idea of the default.
I was on the way out already so ultimately it wasn't really much of a choice. But all should consider these sorts of Machiavellian methods, wherein the ends are said to justify the means: it's OK if we default on our student loans; don't pay back our creditors and live in expressly-announced intent never to do so, as I heard members say; it's OK to use fascist tactics like doctoring a photo to make Bush look cross-eyed (EIR cover), comparing one's political enemies to animals, to insects, calling them monkey-faced cretins (as Mike Billington did, to Bush), using ad hominem attacks to whip up the troops. 'Cause it's all for the greater good, you see.
charltonrom@gmail.com

04-30-2008, 03:35 PM

xlcr4life

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hank
So is there any possibility that this guy was given something to make him so forgetful and seemingly "blank"? He is totally not himself, but doctors can find no physical cause for it.He had written to his cousin back in early 2006, saying he was having trouble with his job due to math and memory problems and that his boss, Rick somebody, had "given him something" for it. What would that have been I wonder?

This is a very serious question. The lack of medical care in the LC is appalling because so many preventable diseases are not caught because of a combination of several things.
The member is kept in a perpetual state of anxiety and work. Couple that with the lack of sleep and group meal plans and you have a recipe for premature aging and associated problems like blood pressure, blood sugar levels and problems which should be caught early.
The member is also repeatedly confronted with the notion that taking precious dollars to go see a doctor is causing a net loss for the movement. His or her time spent away from card table shrines is a foul act of surrender. The cult has from day one made the illnesses of members not something real but a mental issue of fearing having to face the world. How many times have members been told by their local leaders that they have a psychosomatic problem?
The peer pressure is enormous to not take care of yourself. Members who had serious problems who had to abide by meal planning, therapy, limited work schedules were considered not carrying their weight compared to others. In this hell hole you would hear snide remarks about someone who went home in the evening instead of doing a walking tour or joining the boiler room.
We have mentioned this before about how people who leave the LC sometimes have an enormous guilt about selling out the human race when leaving. It takes some time to rid yourself of this and I have heard of this from several ex members.
The cult also does inhouse medical analysis by selected people. The interests of the cult will overide the interests of the member. In the LA LYM "Liz" , who is not a physician from the emails sent to me but a psychology related therapist has diagnosed members. If you are in the LA office, I would rething what you are going through as we have many older LC deaths due to not seeking appropriate medical testing or professionals until it was too late.
The cult has according to some exLYM has told new recruits with problems that "larouche" can cure them of their problems and get them off of medications! I have heard this on a few occasions. What is creepy is that the cult in certain locals has set up card table shrines near homeless shelters and areas where people seeking help for various issues . This has been told to me by a few different LYM years ago.

I am by no means a medical doctor and encourage your friend to seek appropriate care. Some people may need professional help from doctors who are trained in dealing with cults and sects. Perhaps someone like Steve Hasan can recomend the appropriate direction to take.
There is something very creepy about the Leesburg operation involving a long time member who is an MD with a practice in a nearby state. On a few occasions it has been hinted that LYM members who have suffered a breakdown or emotional problem have been sent to this office for assistance and meds.
If your friend was seen by an inhouse LC MD, or treated by a person in the confines of the LC/LYM who is not a health professional, than you have a serious problem. Something like this should involve the local authorities as there can be several laws violated ranging from medical malpractise, treatment without being a licensed provider, illegal dispensing of meds without a medical exam or prescription and a violation of medical privacy laws
Your friend may have been booted out because of several issues mentioned and the income he was generating was not sufficient to cover his costs.
Always keep in mind that cults get away with things which if done by a legitmate business would result in lawsuits and/or arrests.
More than 20 years ago Lyn gave a speech in the Ibykus barn for the general membership. Former members who have run into current LYM have commented on how the intellectual faculties of them seem so much different than when they joined the LC in the 1970s. I wondered if the new plan to recruit the LYM was based on that speech.
Here is the relevant exerpt.
"LAROUCHE Dec. 20, 1987: "Creativity is one of my obsessions. If you don't have creative insight, you can't see how we can win; if you can see how we can win, then we will win. Only we can save the world; only we can do the job, because nobody else even knows what the job is. Would you like to be the savior of humanity? ... Yes, I was chosen. You were chosen. Not with fanfare, not with the blaring trumpets of archangel Gabriel. It doesn't happen that way. It happens as you walk down the street thinking about the problems of the world and realize only you can do the job ... You are chosen. Like John Scialdone's lawyer said to the jury: 'You poor schmucks'!
... Look around you. Who will support us? Who will rally to us? The ones who will rally to us are the emotionally crippled, the grey-faced, the neurologically impaired who, in rallying to us will do the only worthy thing to give meaning to their lives. Thus they will be able to say, 'I wasn't important but I contributed to victory"."

That is the crazy world your friend is recovering from.
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

04-30-2008, 04:11 PM

charltonrom

the Pagan Worship of Lyndon LaRouche Clearly young people who tend towards naivete, ignorant of Lyn's history, are the prime targets for recruitment. I wish we could highlight the statement referenced above by xlcr as a sidebar to every post.
Lyn thinks he is the Messiah, and so do the members, until they see the light. He is essentially a paranoid megalomaniac. For my part I wish to expose some of the core foundational belief postulates that one internalizes as part of joining up. At the core I think is Lyn's bizarre account of human historical development. This is the metanarrative that provides the backdrop for all his other utterances. Those with access to the briefings can glean some of the details from the discussion Lyn had last Saturday with the preferred LYM and the regular courtiers. Further explication to follow of some of the key Postulates or belief planks.
charltonrom@gmail.com

04-30-2008, 05:07 PM

localgreek

mental illness

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hank
Hello,
Been reading some on this board, and find it rather shocking. A relative of a friend has recently "returned" from a long tenure with this group, missing some of his marbles.
I volunteered to post here as he is nervous about the possible repercussions for his cousin or family. (Since there are not that many left, no doubt they would recognize the story):mad:
So is there any possibility that this guy was given something to make him so forgetful and seemingly "blank"? He is totally not himself, but doctors can find no physical cause for it.He had written to his cousin back in early 2006, saying he was having trouble with his job due to math and memory problems and that his boss, Rick somebody, had "given him something" for it.
What would that have been I wonder?

==========================
I would like to say that I too am wondering if our relation was given something too. The person is also forgetful, and seemingly 'blank' as Hank describes. Our family has concluded the family member was given something. The family member is married to a Larouchie too and they both look weird, and sort of stupid, as if they are a bit retarded, and when animated are like automatons. These were once very healthy vibrant energetic people. They are still much addicted and loyal to this satanic cult and this destructive narcissitic man.

04-30-2008, 05:16 PM

localgreek

clarification please [quote=xlcr4life;347548]This is a very serious question. The lack of medical care in the LC is appalling because so many preventable diseases are not caught because of a combination of several things.
The member is kept in a perpetual state of anxiety and work. Couple that with the lack of sleep and group meal plans and you have a recipe for premature aging and associated problems like blood pressure, blood sugar levels and problems which should be caught early.
================================================== ====
Localgreek: What do you mean by "group meal plans"?
problem?
-------------------------------------------------------------

xlcr4life writes: If your friend was seen by an inhouse LC MD, or treated by a person in the confines of the LC/LYM who is not a health professional, than you have a serious problem. Something like this should involve the local authorities as there can be several laws violated ranging from medical malpractise, treatment without being a licensed provider, illegal dispensing of meds without a medical exam or prescription and a violation of medical privacy laws
----------------------------------------------------------------
localgreek writes: is there not any way that the law can get at these people for any reason and get rid of this. I also read yesterday on the site that Larouche want people to be made in his image. Well, they have and that is not a civilized image at all, even though he loves that word civilization. The guys verbiage is a joke, any serious professional researcher or scholar just laughs at his junk and nods his head wondering how the guy can have a following.
-------------------------------------

04-30-2008, 06:49 PM

xlcr4life

Localgreek: What do you mean by "group meal plans"?

In a few LYM offices it was reported to me that because of the extreme poverty being inflicted on the LYM "volunteers" , group meals were being done to save money. Breakfast was done in the office as well as dinner. An older LCer would be given a few bucks and told to figure out how to feed a few dozen people. Oatmeal in the AM and canned tuna or chicken in the evening. On one occasion a LYM member emailed me that the older LCer was the constant target of abuse by the NC and they would set the LYM against him as a boomer. The older LCer fell to the floor one day and began to sob over what his life turned into. The usual fare ourside the office was whatever fast food outlet had a dollar menu near the card table shrine.

"localgreek writes: is there not any way that the law can get at these people for any reason and get rid of this"
The law went after the cult when I was in for credit card theft and outright thievery from the elderly supporters. The IRS and local states have gone after the businesses for FICA non payment in the past as muney was being diverted from FICA to LC coffers. What cults bank on literally is that state and local agencies try to stay away from cults unless there are formal complaints filed.
When people leave the LYM it seems that they are pretty messed up and just want to get on with their lives. Hopefully, someone who has left can shed some light abut payroll hanky panky as far as minimum wage law violations and shifting of income to avoid taxable income. It just takes one person to get this all rolling in your local state.
In Maryland I believe we had a member use a lawyer to get back stipend and rent payments after they left. The attitude of the cult is that when you leave, your bills, rent, car payments and everything else leave with you.
One more thng to consider yutes is why Lyn loves you so much. I was told of a meeting a few years back concerning health expenses in the LC budget. I saw a copy of a weekly budget and there was several thousand each week going out the door for a few people's bills. WHen Lyn was asked about health insurance he told the assembled group that "no one under 40 needs health insurance". I later was informed that Lyn's plans for health insurance included a "self insurance" scheme which called for money each week to be placed into an acount to be used. No one, except for some real hard core deadenders thought that a dime of this would be used for health expenses and would just be looted for some other lunatic pamphlet or leaflett run.
Now think about how this really is the Bizarro world yutes. A few years ago you were out leafletting in DC to save DC General hospital while the cult was purging or getting rid of those pesky and expensive boomers along with their medical problems.

Charltonrom, what you describe about your credit card is an actual policy of the cult. I had several LYM email me years ago about how the NCs would encourage a member to keep in touch with their parents and have them pay their cell phone bills and send them money to live on. People were running up bills paying for things in the office and then were told that some new development was going to end up in nuclear war and the money was being used for leafletts and such. If you complained about this you were made the brunt of the office meeting for being so selfish about your personal bills. To pay the credit card bill members were asked to get money from their parents .
In the 1980s we did the following with members. We had them open up a checking account and apply for an Amex card. We then had the checking account linked to the Amex with bounce protection. The member then wrote a check to Lyn's campaign and the check was covered by Amex. The money then was used for matching funds . In sme cases we had the spouse write the cash to some one else to cash and then took the money to split the cash for them and their spouse to donate and maximise the matching fund filings.
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

04-30-2008, 08:04 PM

eaglebeak

Oopsy Daisy Well, well, well.
Check out this site:
http://www.blacknews.com/news/larouche_racism101.shtml

I have a feeling a lot of the African-American press may be picking this up before long.
Great strategizing, Lyn.

05-01-2008, 01:02 AM

eaglebeak Lyn on Population In answer to, I think, Localgreek's query about links to publications showing Lyn's anti-birth-control phase--
Not sure about links, but if you can get ahold of the 1988 Euthanasia Special Report, you will find that a real eye-opener:
Nancy B. Spannaus, Molly Hammett Kronberg, and Linda Everett (Editors). How to Stop the Resurgence of Nazi Euthanasia Today. Transcripts of the International Club of Life Conference, Munich, West Germany, June 11-12, 1988. Executive Intelligence Review Special Report, September 1988.
There are very few in circulation--it was a best-seller, and had some very interesting and useful material in it, as I recall.
Among the things that might surprise you would be the Club of Life's adoption of anti-abortion planks. (Recall that the Club of Life was a Helga/Lyn operation; recall that at the same time the Club of Life was going on record against abortion, abortions were being performed on Labor Committee members galore.)
You can buy it from here, I think--
http://www.biblio.com/books/54733480.html
but it will cost you $45! Here's the blurb:
EIR Special Report: How to stop the Resurgence of Nazi Euthanasia Today
by Spannaus, Nancy B., Kronberg, Molly Hammett, and Everett, Linda, eds

Bookseller: Ground Zero Books, Ltd. (US)
Seller Inventory #: BOOKS035504I
Quantity available: 1
Binding: Paperback
Publisher: Executive Intelligence Rev.
Date published: 1988
Description
fair to good Executive Intelligence Rev. Washington, DC 1988 quarto, 161, wraps, illus., ink and blue pencil underlining on a few pages, rough spot and sticker residue on front cover Includes transcripts of the International Club of Life Conference, Munich, West Germany, June 11-12, 1988, and speeches fro the Club of Life Conference in Medellin, Colombia, July 7, 1988. Includes material by Lyndon LaRouche on "AIDS, Euthanasia and Moral Law."
wraps : The paper covering on the outside of a paperback.
You could read the odious Webster Tarpley/Anton Chaitkin joke book called The Unauthorized Biography of George H.W. Bush, or whatever it in fact is called--read the chapter on "Rubbers," which excoriates Bush for supporting birth control.
Look up the Cairo Conference and the EIR's coverage of that online. Or Nancy Spannaus's campaign literature from various attempts to get elected this and that from Virginia--starting with her 1990 race against John Warner for Senate. She was running as "pro-life," as you will see if you can get some of the lit.
Amazing.
(Even more amazing, in one of her forays Nancy got 18% of the vote--considerably better than Lyn's 0.001% average, or whatever it is.)
Anyhow, Nancy Spannaus, Linda Everett, and Gabriele Liebig were frequent pro-life writers--and for all I know, Linda and Gabriele really were pro-life. Nancy and Linda were the Club of Life in the United States. (Molly also wrote a variety of pro-life pieces, and a lot of anti-Nazi material. She was definitely in the wrong organization.)
So, in a paroxysm of hypocrisy, the LaRouche movement was pro-life in public--until Bill Clinton came along and embraced partial birth abortion (the pro-life term) or late-term abortion (the pro-choice term), at which point Lyn suddenly found himself back to his old pro-abortion public ways.
In any case, for awhile there they were pro-life in public--and some were pro-life in private--but Lyn was most DEFINITELY NOT pro-life in private, nor was Nancy. Nor Helga, the abortion queen of Western Europe.
Ken Kronberg once told me that when Molly got pregnant in 1983, Nancy invited them to dinner. Ken told her, "We'll come, but put away your coat-hanger."
Nancy did not, however. When the Kronbergs arrived, Nancy and Ed and another NEC couple pounced, and spent the entire evening telling them to get an abortion.
Nancy didn't let up for days and weeks, as was the case with most of the "leadership."
Maybe this makes it clear why neither Molly nor Ken was anxious to see their son in the LYM. Why have him join an organization that tried to abort him?

05-01-2008, 03:37 AM

eaglebeak

The Doctor Wasn't In... First, let me say to Charltonrom, welcome back.
Second, I would like to call everyone's attention--especially LYMers' attention--to this post on Dennis King's website:
http://lyndonlarouchewatch.org/larouche-psychiatry.pdf
This 1962 document by Lyn holds considerable interest.
Let me just mention a few things:
1. He inveighs like crazy (guffaw) against personality tests and intelligence tests. Why do you suppose that is? I think I can guess. No doubt, over the early years, he flunked quite a few.
2. If this guy isn't a "Marxist," I'm Santa Claus. Remember "scientific socialism"? Remember "Marxism--or Marxianism--as a science"? It's all here.
Awkwardly enough, that leaves no room for Kepler, for Cusa, for Riemann, for Leibniz. Not to mention Gauss. Oh, and where's Plato? Well, there's a rather hostile reference to Platonism, or neo-Platonism, or neo-Platonic mysticism.... Not quite good enough, somehow.
And notice his seriously incompetent view of religion. There, nothing has changed. He didn't understand it in 1962, and he doesn't understand it in 2008. When it comes to God and Lyn, the universe isn't big enough for the two of them.
So the man who was a self-taught Leibnizian at 14--by his own account--had apparently forgotten all about it by the time he was 40 and writing this paper.
And thus, LYMers, the next time Lyn tries to impose on you some meretricious narrative about his early encounters with Leibniz, his kindergarten Keplerianism, his playground Platonism--I urge you to fight off the infection by going back and reading this paper.
Lyn's whole constantly reinvented self is a Big Lie.

05-01-2008, 05:05 AM

boomer70

Quote:
Originally Posted by eaglebeak
If this guy isn't a "Marxist," I'm Santa Claus. Remember "scientific socialism"? Remember "Marxism--or Marxianism--as a science"? It's all here.

Eaglebreak,
you just don't get it. he wrote this kind of thing back then as a cover for his work infiltrating the left for the CIA. :eek:

05-01-2008, 05:51 AM

charltonrom

lyn's razer, er I mean Occam's razor

Quote:
Originally Posted by boomer70
Eaglebreak,
you just don't get it. he wrote this kind of thing back then as a cover for his work infiltrating the left for the CIA. :eek:

The whole thing about Lyn infiltrating the left for the CIA... I once heard a lefty prof proffer that. The more parsimonious and probable explanation, is simply Lyn's mania for messianic glory. Early on he made absolutely no secret of his Marxism---just the reverse, he trumpeted it proudly, even to the point of putting it in his pen-name. There is really no doubt he was pretty much a stock Marxist, albeit of unusually florid bent. The modulation out was gradual, until now, Poof! Lyn was ALWAYS a Leibnizian/Colbertist/Hamiltonian FDR-modeled ur-patriot with his genetic roots in New England and deep racial memory of the founders, the anti-slavery movement, the underground railroad, &c.
If you consult the astute works of Stephen Pinker such as The Blank Slate, you will see that Marxism always was the flipside of rightist fascism, as its root metaphor, like Nazism's, was one of cosmic struggle. The key metaphorical difference is that for Nazism the struggle is biological, whereas for Marx and his followers, the struggle is one of class. This type of thinking leads inevitably it seems to logical flaws like condemnation of entire groups, class guilt and the like: kulaks for the Stalinists, "boomers" for Lyn and the LC/LYM. I got news for ya, kiddo: generations, as defined like this, are artificial rhetorical constructs of journalists and soft-science sorts, like sociologists, and... oh yes: demagogues. They may have some limited explanatory utility, but class-guilt imputations... tsk tsk. The apple falls not far from the tree. Can you say... fascist inclination?
charltonrom@gmail.com

05-01-2008, 05:59 AM

charltonrom

Oh yes, and there's the bonus value in imputing blame to an entire class: it seems there's a deep inner need in the human mind, at least in its unlearned, initial condition as it were, for an us-vs-them construct. It's good to have a bad, i.e., villains and straw men and mediocrities against whom the heroic LYM can measure their brilliance and classical virtu. Curse the boomers! If it weren't for them, and the demonic Oligarchy and its henchmen, we could be living in Paradise!
charltonrom@gmail.com

05-01-2008, 07:53 AM

shadok

mental illness/ drugs/ duggan

Quote:
Originally Posted by localgreek
==========================
I would like to say that I too am wondering if our relation was given something too. The person is also forgetful, and seemingly 'blank' as Hank describes. Our family has concluded the family member was given something. The family member is married to a Larouchie too and they both look weird, and sort of stupid, as if they are a bit retarded, and when animated are like automatons. These were once very healthy vibrant energetic people. They are still much addicted and loyal to this satanic cult and this destructive narcissitic man.

In the Jeremiah Duggan case, the org's "line" (and confirmed to me by a direct witness) is that he "used drugs". This witness told me that he looked like "on drugs" although the postmortem showed nothing in his blood. He never used drugs. He told his mother he felt aches in his arms, had dry mouth and thought "they did something to him". So, this is all strange.
We have to realize that "sleep deprivation" could be controlled by a much used drug amongst students: Ritalin.
Officially, the orgs line is AGAINST the use of this drug.
Here is an article written in 2000 by michelle steinberg "PROGRAMMED TO KILL Video Games, Drugs, and The 'New Violence' (http://www.21stcenturysciencetech.com/articles/New_violence.html)
On the phone with his mother, Jeremiah referred to these conspiracy theories about children being turned into zombies/murderers by videogames etc.
In this article Larouche is quoted referring to the use of "mind-altering drugs and more specifically to Ritalin used to "control" restless children...
He says: ". . .We are producing zombies from our students, by this means, and by the use of Ritalin and other dangerous drugs in classrooms, to try to control student populations."... The article goes in details on the use of these drugs and especially Ritalin.
With larouche always bear in mind that the fact he is opposed to something. doesn't mean he is not doing it behind the scenes...
You can read more on the effects of this drug at http://www.vernoncoleman.com/ritalin.htm
On wikipedia, the known side effects are : difficulty sleeping, loss of appetite, depression, irritability, nervousness, stomach aches, headaches, dry mouth, blurry vision, nausea, pupil dilation, dizziness, drowsiness, and motor tics or tremors... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ritalin
Of course we don't know if drugs are used in the org to control some members, which drugs would be used and/or in which specific cases.
But as I said, with larouche: always think the unthinkable...

05-01-2008, 08:01 AM

scrimscraw

Left/Right & Lyn It strikes me as unlikely that all ex-LCers are going to agree upon a political analysis of LHL's earlier positions or upon his plusses and minusses. Given the span of time between '68 and '08, some ex-LCers will have joined when the LC was ostensibly socialist and others will have joined when it was seemingly "patriotic" and/or rightist. Thus, some of you were marching to different drummers from the very beginning of your association with the LC and perhaps still are.
What all ex-LCers have in common, it seems to me, is a lived experience of LHL's manipulations and paranoia. A concentration on that will probably speak to more current LCers and LYMers than will attempts to score points on whether Lyn, at any given point, was right or wrong in viewing things through a particular Us vs Them matrix.

05-01-2008, 08:01 AM

Hank

Thanks for all your replies. I sent them to my friend and here is what he writes back: My cousin, E. had mentioned seeing a doctor, in past years, for high blood pressure I believe. And he was also a Vietnam Vet, so was able to be seen at a Veterans hospital and had had an MRI there for his memory problems.
We were all thinking: they're taking care of him, even if he doesn't make much money.
E. and I had been writing for a number of years, especially from about 1992 through 2006. The last letter I got was the one in Jan 2006, saying he was having trouble with his job, memory and math, and his boss, Rick Magraw, had 'given him something' for it. I was surprised to hear his boss' name, because in all the time I'd written and talked to him (he came home to visit every other year or so) he had never mentioned anyone's name before, except Lyndon Larouche of course.
Now from what Hank has sent me about what Security is and who Magraw is, I have to wonder why he mentioned his name at all. He went to Wiesbaden often, was there about half the time. I feel bad that I didn't find out sooner what was going on there. Never heard of Duggan before.
Looking through his letters I see there is a "birthday card" from him dated April 9, 2003, saying he is just that day leaving for Germany. But my birthday isn't until July...Duggan died on March 27 , in Wiesbaden. Was he establishing an alibi? If so, it was lost on me He never told us what he did or who he was with, except that it had to do with Security, and that he went to conferences. We talked about our childhood memories some, as I was in recovery and therapy and he obliged me by filling in some facts and memories. There are so many things I am trying to piece together.
In the Jan 2006 letter, email actually, he also talked about wanting to come home to stay. This was a big surprise to me. He talked about signing up for college to get job training. I wrote back with a lot of suggestions and enthusiasm. He said he thought a "change of scene" might be good.
Looking back I wonder if that was some kind of attempt to get help, by mentioning Magraw, was he hoping I'd look it up and get a clue? Now I wonder if they were holding him captive or something, maybe he knew too much?
Didn't hear anything for over a year, although he phoned his family some and they phoned him. He had asked that I not tell his parents he was thinking of coming home.
He called several times in the next year saying he was coming to visit, but then didn't. He finally told his parents he planned to come home to stay and asked for money. They offered to buy a plane ticket but didn't want to send a lot of money.
He came to visit in the summer of 2007, and did seem spaced out, we thought. He no longer got involved in political discussions, had no emotional depth and only wanted to watch TV. I remembered a letter he had sent when they relocated him from Houston to Virginia, years ago, saying he was planning to NOT have a tv in his new place. He always read a lot, history and poetry, politics.
I asked him about his problems with memory etc and what he was taking for it. He said he wasn't taking anything. He didn't remember telling me that his boss was giving him something for it. He did say that his roommate had told him that he seemed "autistic". He stayed a couple of weeks and then went back. So in September or so, his parents got a call from someone who said he was E's doctor. He said E had dementia and needed to come home and could not be left alone...
He's now going to the Veteran's Hospital here and they can find no physical reason for his dementia. Maybe it could be from depression? His parents have all the medical records they sent from Virginia.They also should have the name of the doctor who called. Hank mentioned there was a break with the European faction in late 2005. Maybe that was when he finally figured it out? and decided to leave in Jan 2006.

05-01-2008, 09:17 AM

‘‘hecker'''

A couple of comments: the MD who is/was a long time meber and who treated the LaRouchies in and around Leesburg is John Grauerholz who is a coroner by profession (!) and who is now a preacher of some kind....
In Europe, you have the case of Uwe Friedecke's wife Carla who was urged by Helga to have an abortion when she was pregnant from her former husband. Also her son never became a member of the LYM, as far as I know.
When it comes to LaRouche's life style, either prople addressing that issue are bubbling nonsense or something drastically has changed over the past 10-15 years. When I was in the organization, LHL impressed me being someone who had no interest in material things at all. He had just one suit (for official meetings and LC conferences), he hardly ate unless security would prepare something for him. Yes, the wine consumption became quite enormous, but that was about all, the organization would spend money on. I think, it is pompous Helga who is using up the money.
By the way, in these old days, LHL didn't support the South African apartheid regime, I personally heard him say that were he president of the US, he would throw nukes on Johannesburg, if the regime didn't come to its senses.
Although I have left the organization a long time ago, I can hardly believe the stories about drugs being used on members. But, who knows?

05-01-2008, 12:27 PM

eaglebeak LaRouchie Doctors Another doctor frequently used these days by the org in Leesburg, I believe, is Ned Rosinsky, a shrink (apparently) who was for years a member, is married to a former member, lives in Maryland, and is personally "very close to" although not officially a member of, the LaRouche org.
If someone needs to get in touch with him, I can probably dig up his number.
Barbara Boyd took LYM members who were "depressed" to him, but if someone were in Security out at "the house," then Rick Magraw would definitely have been his boss.
I have strong, strong reason to believe that Rosinsky prescribed medication for the "depressed" LYMers, so I think it entirely plausible that he would do the same for whoever Rick might have brought to him.
When Ken Kronberg died, Rosinsky was enlisted by Barbara to put the word out in the Leesburg office that Ken had suffered from clinical depression, that his father had also so suffered, and that it was a disease for which no one could be blamed. Translated, that means: It's not anyone's fault, not the org's, not Lyn's, not Jeff's, not Tony Papert's, not Nancy and Dennis's.....
That was the org's first of many official lines (i.e., before they discovered that it was the Boomers' fault for not raising enough money, and then Molly's fault for giving money to Bush, and then Ken's fault for having committed mysterious illegalities, and then Molly's fault for having been a Government agent).
I know that Molly confronted Ned Rosinsky about the line that he was spreading, asked him if he had examined Ken (no), asked him when he last saw Ken (a number of years ago), asked him on what possible basis he was running around giving this shrinkly "diagnosis."
Ned did say feebly (Ned tends to say things feebly) that he remembered that Ken would get grumpy and gloomy back in the 1980s (?!?!?!) and that the last time he had seen Ken, Ken hadn't seemed very friendly or forthcoming. (No wonder. Bear in mind that Ken and Ned were in high school together at the Bronx High School of Science, a New York City magnet school, and never did get along too well.)
When asked why on earth he felt free to run around spreading this organizational line with no basis whatsoever, but implying that he had a psychiatric basis for it (Molly kept telling Ned ominously that what he was doing was "very unprofessional," maybe trying to raise the possibilities of a legal consequence), Rosinsky said "Well, the office is so crazy. People are looking for answers. They're totally freaked out by Ken's death. It's mass psychosis."
(Another case of shoot-from-the-hip diagnosis, apparently.)
Now, I would be the first one to agree that mass psychosis pretty well characterizes the Leesburg office, and anything else Lyn touches, but what we can glean from Ned's admission to Molly about why he was saying this stuff, is that the organization needed him to say something for purposes of social control, because the Boomer members were so totally flipped out by Ken's violent, angry, dramatic suicide.
As to the timing of E's letters and plans, the split in Europe occurred in the fall of 2006, not 2005, if that's relevant. Anyone who was in Wiesbaden a lot would have witnessed some serious disjunction between the European org and the American one, in terms of what the two orgs believed, how they operated, how hard they worked, etc.
I don't know if that would have been relevant in any way. And certainly, if E attended the conference at which Jeremiah Duggan died, that would have been a terrible, terrible experience.
Rick Magraw, by the way, is a Total True Believer, all LaRouche zombie all the time, and therefore a very sinister figure.

05-01-2008, 03:40 PM

xlcr4life 1 Attachment(s)

Quote:
Originally Posted by eaglebeak
When Ken Kronberg died, Rosinsky was enlisted by Barbara to put the word out in the Leesburg office that Ken had suffered from clinical depression, that his father had also so suffered, and that it was a disease for which no one could be blamed.

This is very sick and borders on an activity which should be followed up with a complaint or suit for violation of medical ethics as well as patient privacy. At the very least the appropriate medical board in the state of practice needs to be informed and an attorney should be consulted. If Ken was seen by a doctor and the doctor released or discussed a single bit of info with out the written consent of that office, then we have a violation of HIPPA which covers patient privacy. If an MD has not examined, treated or is otherwise privy to the detailed knowledge of the health history, what does it mean to have him or her -use theur position in a public or private company to say anything about an employee? If you worked for a company and your spouse died, the company would face severe problems if an MD issued blanket statements about the employee using the company email or message system. This is not too different than a company doing premptive work against a racial bias suit saying that "he was always too uppity" or saying that a woman was "always flirting" beofre a sexual harrassment suit.
Hecker, you have some serious problems here. To have Rick McGraw ISSUE or DISPENSE any medication is criminal if it is a prescription level me dor sample. It is also as kooky as hell with a short man who plays with firearms being the administrator of health coverage under LaroucheCare.
Was the meds involved documented as to the name, dosage, usage in a medical chart of a treating physician?
Was a dignosis made as to why the meds were issued?
Did the referring physician write a CPT code i th emember's chart documenting the reason and the meds?
were appropriate tests done to identify the condition being treated? For example, members have had blood sugar disorders which can cause symptoms mimicking what your relative describes.
was there any type of physical exam done prior to issuing meds? You can not issue a prescription without an exam an paper trail of cause?
was there any work done on interactive side effects between what Rick M was handing out and any meds which were already being used?
Was there any follow up as to the efficacy of what was given and/or side effects or even the correct dosage?
WTF kind of medical care is this? You place a person in a high stress envoronment, throw in lack of sleep and proper nutrition, a history of being in Vietnam, inhaling fumes , no regular checkups and hten boot them out the door and declare that they have dementia?
Hecker, your relative had his life being run by the cult for every decision . Cults get away with the abuse of people because of the nature of taking on cults. Years ago I finally had to face the fact that we will never find the bottom of the sickness of this cult as more and more becomes public. It would be a horrific crime to find out that whatever ails your relative is the result of miscare and neglect from somehting which was a simple and treatable problem beofre he ran into this nasty cult.

I have two long posts on LaorucheCare MDS which will be up soon.
In the meantime, you can see some current LaroucheCare below
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

05-01-2008, 05:06 PM

scrimscraw

Tragedy & Hope Interesting that the title of LHL's upcoming May 7th webcast, "Tragedy & Hope", echoes the title of Carroll Quigley's historical opus which was beloved by the John Birch Society and other ultra-conservatives. Quigley ostensibly revealed that an Anglophilic elite was influential in U.S. governmental circles. Quigley, ironically, was a teacher of Bill Clinton's at Georgetown U, if I recall correctly. I doubt that this choice of title is entirely coincidental. I wouldn't be surprised if Tragedy & Hope was one of Lyn's (or his researchers, e.g. Chaitkin, etc.) source texts when the LC made its shift from hating Rocky to hating the Brits. :cool:

05-01-2008, 06:16 PM

D'Yer Maker

Hello Everyone,
I recently came across this board and wanted to share a personal experience I had with these people. I met them while attending the local community college and I remember just being enthralled with what they had to say. This was a year after 9/11 and I wanted to do something great, I wanted to contribute to the good of the world... People are vulnerable and readily believe in any nutjob professing change during such times.
I attended the classes, several cadre schools, and even attended a "national " convention in DC. This appearantly was not enough as the pressure to join was tremendous. On one occassion, the girl who was my recruiter called me and started asking me why was it so difficult to make up my mind about saving humanity. I staright out told her I had no intentions of dropping out of school or dropping out on my life. This was my future, my well-being, my dreams I was putting at stake. That's when someone else on the other line told me I was being a "selfish bitch". She had another member on the third line listening in!! This ******* went on to say that if I did not join I'd be "personally responsible for the thousands of deaths of African and Palestinian children".... That's when I said hell no. I was a wide-eyed, naive, teenager who wanted to play revolutionary, BUT, I wasn't that stupid that I'd fall for a cult tactic. I stopped attending their meetings and cut my ties with them from that point. Unfortunately, I had a good friend in there and there were many good-hearted young people whom I don't know if they are still there or have they resumed their lives... I hope they have. There is one person that I read about here who I know and I'd be curious to ask about him but am a little worried that someone might recognize me... so... Anyway, I'm glad that there is such a place where people can discuss their experiences. Hopefully, members who have left stumble across this site.
Peace.

05-01-2008, 08:19 PM

xlcr4life

Quote:
Originally Posted by D'Yer Maker
Hello Everyone,.....I. so... Anyway, I'm glad that there is such a place where people can discuss their experiences. Hopefully, members who have left stumble across this site.Peace.

D'Yer Maker, thanks for your post. You should know that many LYM have become EXLYM when they have read this site or have had it sent to them by parents or friends. Just email anyone you know the links or copy/paste any interesting post for them.
I should admit that one of the little things which kept me in the real world was Led Zepplin. I had "Houses of the Holy" on cassette and kept that hidden between my other tapes of Mozart and Bach. D'Yer Maker is a great song .
Helga's name before marrying Lyn was Helga Zepp. She rarely uses Helga Zepp Larouche, but who knows what happens after Lyn goes. I bring up Helga because of a joke and also a story I was told which defies belief, but I do think is true.
The LC membership was being paid 5 bucks a day while Lyn and Helga were whooping it up at Club Ibykus as members were suffering from whooping cough . Besides the swimming pool which Lyn wanted to claim was a "firewall" in the trials, Helga had a fixation on horses. This is besides her dogs which I can guarantee you ate better and had better health care than members. Helga also had a horse in Germany and from what I was told, she had the LC spend nearly 25 K flying her favorite horse between Germany and the USA! This is on top of the never ending SST /Concorde flights. Helga's dogs were also flown for less money, but this is what the money our elderly supporteres signed over was paying for. The currency values from the mid 1980s may be off, but you can forgive me Helga. Blame the Treaty of Lisbon on that.
The joke?
What is the new band for the LYM to follow?
Misled ZeppLyn
Up next is LaroucheCare Part one and Two.
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

05-01-2008, 08:47 PM

xlcr4life

2 Attachment(s) LaroucheCare Part One
What we will be looking at are two MD components of "LaroucheCare". In a cult you do not have a health plan where you go find your doctors and take care of yourself as best as you can. What the LC had was a reliance on recruited MDs who were treated differently and would be at times involved in member health care. There are a few MDs who will be mentioned later, for now we will focus on two big names who did a lot of work for us.
First up is Dr. John Grauerholz. As usually is the case with people, when you spread the Lunatic Gospel of Larouche, you also get crushed by the Lunatic Gospel of Larouche. When you had a health problem in Leesburg, you saw Dr. John. JG was not a practicing physician with an office and staff treating patients daily. He was a coroner. Now some of you may be thinking that this is not so odd since sports teams have company MDs to treat players. Yes, but they use experienced MDs in select specialties and compliment , not replace the players health personal health care givers.
Some of the stories I have been sent by ex members about JG are pretty odd. Any female members wish to discuss how they had breast exams for lumps in the LC office? Anyone wish to REALLY discuss what happened to Allen Salsibury and his initial diagnosis?
Would you work for a company where your health plan is seeing an MD in a restroom or cubicle and finding out he or she is a coroner? In Bizarro world you j do just that.

Looking at the picture of Rev John Grauerholz
http://revjg.com/
has me hoping that he has finally found some peace in his life and can enjoy the rest of it. There is a story and lesson for yutes and our readers of how a smart person can be recruited by the cult and then see his or her life's work evaporate right in front of their eyes. JG is not the first and not the last and if you ask anyone in Leesburg they would just shrug their head about him which is all you need to know about compassion in the LC. I f you ask a yute about JG they would have even more of that confused look than normal.
You can see his resume here:
http://docjohn.us/cv/cv.pdf

Our tale begins in Long Island where JG did not drop out of college to join us, he left his work and career though. JG was I think the number 2 person in the Suffolk county medical examiners office and met us at a card table shrine in Suffolk county. He purchased some lit and gave us his phone number. The story I get from people who knew him was that he was genuinely excited to find a group of people who were concerned about culture, science and doing something for humanity, just like many of you . We called JG up and sold him some more subs to EIR, had him buy a membership to the FEF and invited him to Schiller Institute events. JG, like many of us had some issues with his personal life and found himself surrounded by many bright people who enjoyed his company . At the time we were doing NADC meetings using a coroner of sorts from Philadephlia who had a slide show. I can't offhand remember th e guy's name, but he was a big framed African American who was sent to do our events. When the checks started to bounce, well, you know the rest of the story. Since we had a guy in JG who was an MD in the coroner's office, we figured that he could continue the NADC show.
Besides, "Quincy" was one of the most popular shows back then.
JG took an interest in what we were doing and soon he found himself meeting with higher and higher people. His stock rose as he began to represent the FEF in different avenues and wrote articles for our publications about disease and AIDS. Along the way he became pretty friendly with Marcia M., who is a pretty friendly person I guess. She was the ex wife of a NC member who was a respected Art professor and art dealer named Dr. Steven Pepper. The Dr. Pepper in his case meant PHD and he was eveuntually divorced from Marcia Merry. Steve Pepper died of a heart attack I beleive on a train in Italy.
His chapter in LC history involving Pepper Fine Arts and a ritzy sky high NYC apt is for another day. Somehow Marcia Merry always seems to be in these LC stories. "Are you excited to see me or is that a promisorry note in your pants?"
About this time in the mid 1980s I was leaving and JG was relocating to Leesburg with everyone and he was known as being part of Lyn's medical staff. We had a few MDs who joined us and we wil learn about some of them a little later. For now, JG was on top of the world as he was in the inner circle and thought he had a life without hassles.
Among the them any things JG was involved in was our AIDS ballot initiatives in California called "PANIC" . You can read some interesting info here about that involving JG here.
http://books.google.com/books?id=kV7j8tUq0rcC&pg=PA92&lpg=PA92&dq=john+grauerholz&source=web&ots=mz2h9Xd3Oy&sig=YGFglFPAfi4VyxF4jzjswbMWT_0
What I find interesting about our two AIDS initiatives is how we took an old idea of the Rockefellers and diseases wiping out humanity in the 1970s and transformed that to AIDS in the 1980s. This time we used gays as the tools of the oligarchy and created our own crazy computer simulations about how AIDS would wipe out humanity using exponential expansion. If anyone decides to really research this you will find that JG was usefull in spreading disinformation using other contacts we made in the AIDS field. By creating a hysterical environment we found the people who were hysterical and were out of the loop on research and treatments. This is a common methodology I find in the LC because it it can be used in the sciences to find the fringe element who will gladly jump at the idea of getting noticed, even if it is a cult like us. This method works well in politics , civil rights , global warming because we really only need a few "names" to get entrenched like a cold sore in any field. Lyn can now declare himself as a world leader of an international team for whatever is the vector of the month. We can rally the troops by showing how we have people with credentials and move on till the next crisis captures our eyes and bank accounts. For a while, the LC was big on cold fusion and used to advertise for a cold fusion journal of sorts.
The key word is "disinformation". That was our specialty and I still get surprised at exactlt what we did over the decades in spreading lies and disinformation about so many people and subjects. In our AIDs work there is a bundle of information to be written up about in our work. I only found out last year that ojne of the British scientists who we were always quoting from a British mEdical Journal was considered a dope and we were quoting hie letter to the editor as if it was a main artilce in a peer reviewed journal!
As we continue to look at JG we find that he thinks his life is now complete as he is working to save humanity while clinking glasses with Lyn and Helga at Club Ibykus. Whatever misinformation from our AIDS work is yesterday's news as we go on with out worry and hassles.
Well, you do not join the LC with getting yourself into a hassle. We can guarantee that real easy friends. I lost interest in the LC after I left and did not think of JG until many, many years later when the internet boomed. Some friends of mine who left a little bit after I left told me that JG had some real big problems and if I knew about them. From a 14.4k line, to 28.8, 56K and on to a multi MB line, JG popped up in the strangest places.
One of those places was in Brooklyn NY where in this PDF, we see that what happened to JG was a tragedy unfolding.
http://www.insurancejournal.com/pdf/InsuranceTimes_20000328_37266.pdf
you find a JG in an article in the March 2000 Insurance Times.
Here you find this among the names and companies:
http://www.mealeys.com/FRA0500.htm
GRAUERHOLZ, JOHN E.Allstate Insurance v. Schick, Iss. 3, 8/99, p20#
GRAUERHOLZ, JOHNProgressive Northeastern Insurance v. Advanced Diagnostic & Treatment, Iss. 10, 3/00, p10*

This all seemed like a shock to me because this was not the mild mannered JG I met in Reston at a national conference. I asked someone about this and they emailed me an article about how some operators set up a medical office and file phony claims from staged accidents. One of the tricks is to get an MD license to be used to make claims. It seems that a medical license was being rented by MDs for just this purpose.
Check this out and read more exerpts.
http://www.casewatch.org/ins/allstate/schick.shtml
"Allison Park, Pennsylvania, near Pittsburgh. Defendants Oak Medical, Metropolitan, Garden State Health, Spinal Medical and Prospect Spinal were all purportedly owned by defendant Robban A. Sica, M.D., who resides in Trumbull, Connecticut. Defendants Golden Medical, Prospect Medical and Plainfield Medical were purportedly owned by defendant John Grauerholz, M.D., who resides in Leesburg, Virginia. Dr. Grauerholz also purportedly owns Garden State Health, which was allegedly formed for or by Dr. Samuel Schenker. Dr. Grauerholz's ownership is suspect because Allstate claims his alleged signatures on documents filed with the Secretary of State were forged. That disputed fact alone is sufficient to defeat the motion for summary judgment. "
"The Gross defendants basically argue three points: First, they contend that Allstate lacks standing to challenge the corporate structure of the defendants' enterprises. Second, they argue that even if their corporate structure is defective, the electrodiagnostic testing should nevertheless be compensable under the No Fault Law, because it was performed by a plenary licensed physician and was reasonable and necessary. Finally, they argue that the practice structure of their enterprises, pursuant to which Dr. Sica and Dr. Grauerholz were paid flat fees to pose as the shareholders of Metropolitan and Garden State Health, respectively, while defendant Isaac Gross, a non-licensee, controlled, managed and operated these diagnostic facilities through his jewelry company, Gottlieb Watchband Corp., was proper and lawful.'
"In an attempt to avoid an adverse decision on the ultimate issue, the Gross defendants argue in the alternative that even if, as Allstate contends, the "dominion and control" over Metropolitan and Garden State Health was not exercised by Dr. Sica and Dr. Grauerholz, but rather by Isaac Gross and/or other non-licensees in violation of N.J.A.C. 13:35-6.16 and 13:35-2.5, their claims for PIP benefits are nevertheless enforceable because the testing they provided was "reasonable and necessary" and was provided by a plenary licensed physician."

"Moreover, because there is serious doubt whether Dr. Weinberg, Dr. Sica and Dr. Grauerholz, all being non residents, did or even could actually exercise any oversight, supervision or control over these defendant medical corporations as required by the regulations of the Board of Medical Examiners, they may have been or are operated illegally. Therefore, the motion for summary judgment to dismiss the complaint against the Gross defendants is denied."
"FN8. The Gross defendants' admission in their Fifth Affirmative Defense that Robert Borsody, Esquire was involved in the management agreement between Metropolitan Diagnostic and Gottlieb Watchband Corp. provides an additional link to the facilities purportedly owned by Dr. Grauerholz and Dr. Weinberg."
This was all confusing and later you find that his MD lic was suspended.
http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:qPq35sxa4UcJ:www.dhp.state.va.us/medicine/newsletters/BoardBrief63.doc+john+grauerholz+and+insurance+fraud&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=us
12/03/2001 0101-037639 John E. Grauerholz, M.D., Leesburg, VA - Mandatory suspension based upon revocation by State Board of Medical Examiners of New Jersey.

I figured that this was all because of the insurance problem after I saw this:
http://www.quackwatch.com/11Ind/sica.html
one former medical doctor as the main perpetrators of the scam. The complaint charges that Alan Cohen, M.D., Swapnadip Lahiri, MD, Robban Sica, MD, George Battaile, Robert Mallela, MD, and John Grauerholz, MD were willing to sell their names and licenses to anyone willing to pay their fees. Cohen was identified as the principal perpetrator with 29 of the named phony PCs linked to his name. . . .
In looking at the docs you will see that there is a John E. Grauerholz. Maybe that is another MD. Here we find that this is one person who had problems with their license.
http://www.carefirst.com/pages/mdmedicare/pdf/Intermediary News 1102 (2).pdf
Now there is a hole in the timeline since I left the LC and read the problems JG was having with his license. Something seemed odd here because I wondered how did he het hooked up with these people in the first place. Reading some more I noticed that one of the players here was invovled in chelation therapy treatments and had some shady medical clinics.
What happened next is pretty amazing as I will explain. Whle I was in the LC, I never really left the real world. The idea of surrendering my mind and free will like many of the members I worked with was a scary proposition. My interests in many subjects kept me reading many non LC journals and magazines and noticing that many of the people we attacked were nothing like what they were if you read their books or heard them in an interview on the radio or TV. This was a non internet world back then and my life line to reality was going to a big book store and just devouring as many magazine articles as I could to keep abreast of issues and topics. One of my favorite "fun" magazines was The Skeptical Inquirer and books written by CSICOP and the "Amazing Randi" who I used to see on the old Johnny Carson Tonight show. What I enjoyed was read ing things about being skeptical and challenging what was presented to you as someone with more "cheap parlor tricks" than you can fool you since you do not know the "cheap parlor tricks". I guess that is why I often write about Lyn's "cheap parlor tricks" as after I left I figured out so many ways Lyn has a cheap parlor trick up his sleeve.
The funniest thing about all of this is seeing who is one of the founding members of the Skeptical Inquirer. A professor named Paul Kurtz was a founder and a few of you older LCers will remember his name and how we indicted him in "Operation Nuremburg" in the 1970s. Hmm, Lyn spent a lot of time indicting psychiatry long before Tom Cruise did.
Let me get back on track here. One of the topics I read about in the Skeptical Inquirer was medical hocus pocus with things like Fillipino hand surgery tricks. Some alternative medicine has a fraud element to it. I was wondering exactly how JG ended up doing being invovled with this when out of the blue a former member mentioned to me a rumour he heard that there was a big problem in Leesburg with some of the LC medical doctors many years ago.
This got me intersted again in JG and lo and behold, more info from public records has been placed on the web and this poped up"
http://w3.health.state.ny.us/opmc/factions.nsf/58220a7f9eeaafab85256b180058c032/54dff40505f3615385256a4a0047d36d/$FILE/lc140771.pdf
Holy moly, look what we find here:
.
john grauerholz new


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Page 1
Bogan, Esq.
13,200O.
If the penalty imposed by the Order is a surrender, revocation or suspension of this
license, you are required to deliver to the Board the license and registration within five (5) days
of receipt of the Order to Board for Professional Medical Conduct, New York State Department
of Health, Hedley Park Place, Suite 303,433 River Street, Troy, New York 12180.
Executive Secretary
Board for Professional Medical Conduct
Enclosure
cc:
Michael A. Moroney, Esq.
10 Washington Street, PO Box 905
Morristown, NJ 07963-0905
Robert
#BPMC 00-l 10 of the New York State Board for
Professional Medical Conduct. This Order and any penalty provided therein goes into effect
April
Ft. Marks, M.D., J.D.
Executive Secretary
CERTIFIED MAIL-RETURN RECEIPT REQUESTED
John Grauerholz, M.D.
624 York Lane S.E.
Leesburg, VA 20175
Dear Dr. Grauerholz:
RE:
License No. 14077 1
Enclosed please find Order
13,200O
William P. Dillon, M.D.
Chair
Denise M. Bolan, R.P.A.
Vice Chair
Ansel
402-0863
April
Conducl
New York State Board for Professional Medical Conduct
433 River Street, Suite 303 Troy, New York 12180-2299
(518)
Departmenf of Health
Anne F. Salle, Director
Office of Professional Medical
Depury Commissioner
NYS
of Health
Dennis P. Whalen
Executive
NYS Department
Commissiomw
Novello, M.D., M.P.H.
Antonia C.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Page 2
I hereby agree not to contest the two (2) specifications set forth in the Statement
of Charges (Exhibit A).
I
was licensed to practice medicine as a
physician in the State of New York having been issued License No. 140771 by the New
York State Education Department.
I am not currently registered with the New York State Education Department to
practice as a physician in the State of New York.
I understand that the New York State Board for Professional Medical Conduct
has charged me with two (2) specifications of professional misconduct as set forth in
the Statement of Charges, annexed hereto, made a part hereof, and marked as Exhibit
"A."
I am applying to the State Board for Professional Medical Conduct for an
agreement to allow me to surrender my license as a physician in the State of New York
and request that the Board issue this Surrender Order.
7,1979,
L________________-_--_____-____--_______
JOHN EDWARD GRAUERHOLZ, M.D., says:
On or about December
1
BPMC
#00-110
I
I
1 ORDER
I
I
I
I
JOHN EDWARD GRAUERHOLZ, M.D.
i SURRENDER
I
f
OF
STATE OF NEW YORK :
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH
STATE BOARD FOR PROFESSIONAL MEDICAL CONDUCT
I
i
IN THE MATTER
I
i
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Page 3
c/y
JOHN EDWARD GRAUE
Respondent
2
Gb-
,200O
23
;;'
pendency of the professional
misconduct disciplinary proceeding; and such denial by the State Board for
Professional Medical Conduct shall be made without prejudice to the continuance of
any disciplinary proceeding and the final determination by a Committee on Professional
Medical Conduct pursuant to the provisions of the Public Health Law.
I agree that, in the event the Board grants my Application, as set forth herein, an
order of the Chairperson of the Board shall be issued in accordance with same upon
issuance by the Board, which may be accomplished by mailing, by first class mail, a
copy of the Order to me at the address set forth above, or to my attorney, or upon
transmission via facsimile to me or my attorney, whichever is first.
I am making this agreement of my own free will and accord and not under
duress, compulsion, or restraint of any kind or manner.
Date:
I understand that, in the event that this proposed agreement is not granted by
the State Board for Professional Medical Conduct, nothing contained herein shall be
binding upon me or construed to be an admission of any act of misconduct alleged or
charged against me, such proposed agreement shall not be used against me in any
way, and shall be kept in strict confidence during the
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Page 4
,200o
Date:
Bureau of Professional
Medical Conduct
AGREED TO:
Date:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Page 5
F;\klAM P. DILLON, M.D.
State Board for Professional
Medical Conduct
4
I
ORDER
Upon the proposed agreement of JOHN EDWARD GRAUERHOLZ, M.D., to
Surrender his license as a physician in the State of New York, which proposed
agreement is made a part hereof, it is AGREED TO and
ORDERED, that the proposed agreement and the provisions thereof are hereby
adopted; it is further
ORDERED, that the name of Respondent be stricken from the roster of
physicians in the State of New York; it is further
ORDERED, that this Order shall be effective upon issuance by the Board, which
may be accomplished by mailing, by first class mail, a copy to Respondent's attorney at
the addresses set forth in this agreement, or upon transmission via facsmimilie to
Respondent or Respondent's attorney,
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Page 6
subtances, substances not approved by
the FDA for treatment of cancer and for which he was not authorized by the FDA to
sponsor clinical investigative trials, to cancer patients on four (4) occasions and that he
did not record the administrations of aloe vera in the patients' charts, and that he has
had a lengthy period of depression for which he is being treated by a physician.
B.
The conduct resulting in the Virginia Board's disciplinary action against
Respondent would constitute misconduct under the laws of New York state, pursuant to
the following sections of New York state law:
Order'), that placed Respondent's license on indefinite probation
with terms and conditions to include no clinical practice and no direct patient care,
required him to submit a detailed report from his current healing physician, and required
him to meet within ninety (90) days with the Board's Psychiatric Consultant, based on
his administration of intraveneous aloe vera
____________________
X
IN THE MATTER
STATEMENT
OF
OF
JOHN EDWARD GRAUERHOLZ, M.D.
CHARGES
JOHN EDWARD GRAUERHOLZ, M.D., the Respondent, was authorized to
practice medicine in New York state on December 7, 1979, by the issuance of license
number 140771 by the New York State Education Department.
FACTUAL ALLEGATIONS
A.
On or about July 15, 1999, the Commonwealth of Virginia, Department of
Health Professions, Board of Medicine, (hereinafter "Virginia Board"), by an Order,
(hereinafter "Virginia
:
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH
STATE BOARD FOR PROFESSIONAL MEDICAL CONDUCT
STATE OF NEW YORK
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Page 7
$6530(9)(b) by reason of having been found guilty of
improper professional practice or professional misconduct by a duly authorized
professional disciplinary agency of another state where the conduct upon which the
finding was based would, if committed in New York state, constitute professional
misconduct under the laws of New York state, in that the Petitioner charges:
2
§6530(35) (ordering of excessive tests,
treatment, or use of treatment facilities not warranted by the condition of the patient).
SPECIFICATIONS
FIRST SPECIFICATION
Respondent is charged with professional misconduct by reason of his having
violated New York Education Law
§6530(32) (failing to maintain accurate records);
6.
New
York Education Law
§6530(16) (failure to comply with federal, state
or local laws, rules, or regulations governing the practice of medicine);
5.
and/or
New York Education Law
(
incompetence on more than one
occasion);
4.
New York Education Law
§6530(5)
§6530(3) (negligence on more than one
occasion);
3.
New York Education Law
§6530(2) (practicing the profession fraudulently
or beyond its authorized scope);
2.
New York Education Law
1.
New York Education Law
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Page 8
,200O
Albany, New York
PETER D. VAN BUREN
Deputy Counsel
Bureau of Professional
Medical Conduct
3
,&-g
56530(9)(d) by reason of his having had
disciplinary action taken against him after a disciplinary action was instituted by a duly
authorized professional disciplinary agency of another state, where the conduct
resulting in the disciplinary action would, if committed in New York state, constitute
professional misconduct under the laws of New York state, in that the Petitioner
charges:
2.
The facts in paragraphs A and/or B.
DATED:
SECOND SPECIFICATION
Respondent is charged with professional misconduct by reason of his having
violated New York State Education Law
1.
The facts
in paragraphs
A
and/or
B.

05-01-2008, 08:52 PM

xlcr4life

LaroucheCare Part Two
What we have here is a real live conspiracy! If you look into insurance fraud in Brooklyn, the Russian Mafia set up shop and ran scams with phony or staged auto accidents. NY State has something like a minimum of 50K in no fault medical coverage. Once you start a claim of an accident, you can now use that as a 50K line of credit to spend at phony medical clinics . The clinics need a licensed MD and they would pay money each month to "rent" a license.

In reading some of DrJG s aids work, he was spreading some myths about disease transmission. Anyone who read what we were putting out would see that we were incompetent, used crazy sources as experts , spread disinformation and made being gay a disease.
What I find important is that the LC tapped into MDs who were of a conspiratorial mindset which is why I mention Laetrile. A lot of the kookiness in medicine is in this milleau which sees medicine as nothing but a coverup and conspiracy.
Now this is getting very interesting as DRJG has his license revoked in NY State, but not for the insurance problem. Read the doc and you see something about injecting patients with aloe vera. What about NJ? Well, this came online soon.

http://www.nj.gov/oag/ca/disc/disact01.htm
http://w3.health.state.ny.us/opmc/factions.nsf/58220a7f9eeaafab85256b180058c032/54dff40505f3615385256a4a0047d36d?OpenDocument
Grauerholz, John E., M.D., License No. 42216
FINAL ORDER filed July 27, 2001 On July 8, 1999, respondent admitted before a committee of the Virginia Board of Medicine that in 1997 he had administered intravenous aloe vera substance to cancer patients on approximately four occasions. The injections were not recorded in the patients' charts and he was not authorized by the Federal Drug Administration to sponsor clinical investigative trials of aloe vera, which is not approved by the FDA for treatment of cancer. He was granted immunity from prosecution in return for testifying against the physician who owned the clinic. He admitted he was being treated for depression. His license to practice medicine in Virginia was placed on indefinite probation and he was not allowed to engage in the practice of clinical medicine or any medical practice which involved direct patient care. He was ordered to have his psychiatrist submit a report to the Virginia Board within thirty days. A Provis ional Order of Discipline was filed October 3, 2000 with this Board based on the Findings of Fact listed above. Dr. Grauerholz did not respond. The Board ordered that Dr. Grauerholz's license to practice medicine and surgery in the State of New Jersey be revoked.

So now we have JG with license problems, but JG lives in Leesburg. One thing you can always be sure of in the larouche cult is that as people have their lives ruined and go broke, you do not talk about it. You do not wish to have members question as to if their association with us caused an out of control chain reaction which ruined them. If you see a broken down supporter or ex member, Lyn and the leaders will remind you that there are casualties in our war to save humanity.
Lately, this phrase has been changed to a new Bizarro world LynSpeak. The new phrase is "Lyn's mission". Many deadenders will now tell you that there may have been a few problems in the LC, but "Lyn's mission" is critical and why they are still around.
After quite a long time, no one had anything to say about JG until a friend of a friend mentioned that there was another order to never mention a Leesburg "Cancer Clinic" and the MD who ran it. As it was relayed to me by a friend of a friend "The MD who ran it was a big supporter of ours. According to Leesburg members, he financed a house for Lyn to live in and eventually lost everything, his money, his wife and family. No one talks about it because some people died and we can't have Lyn connected to it in any way.
At first, I thought that this may have been JG, but when someone said that the MD was from Canada, that could not have been JG. Eventually, after a long time, the name Dr. McNay or MaCnay was offered and his story became even more bizarre. McNay I was told was a big supporter of ours and moved down from Canada to Leesburg. The story I heard was that he was involved with some real estate deal with us. this may have been something like him renting a house to us. I do not know the details except what stories people have. One of the stories was that he lost his wife because of losing money with us and later developed a common deadender problem involving bottles and spirits.
1996 was a good year as he and his wife contributed to Lyn's groundbreaking 1996 campaign.
Contributor
Occupation
Date
Amount
Recipient
MACNAY, BUNNIE
MANASSAS,VA 22110
4/8/1996
$1,000
Larouche, Lyndon H Jr
MACNAY, DONALD
MANASSAS,VA 22110
2/23/1996
$1,000
Larouche, Lyndon H Jr


If anyone has more info please post it as I would like to make sure that we have this story as accurate as possible. Since this is the LC, everything is compartmentalized and only a few will have the whole story while many will have a small portion of the story.
Where Dr. JG was the inhouse medical person for the LC, Dr. MacNay ended up as the LC orthopedic surgeon. He ran an office in Northern Virginia and did knee and hip replacements for members.
The story from the segments people have told me is that MacNay's life took a horrednous downfall as the medical and marriage both ended. He may have lost some money with us and based on our track record, I believe that. A cancer clinic was set up in Northern Virginia using injections of Aloe Vera as a cure and JG ended up working there.
Now we have a clinic with shady underpinnings, run by a broken down LC MD using another broken down LC MD with an aide who is not a medical person who at first was a "volunteer" while patients are trying everything to stay alive.
What could go wrong?
Well, a few deaths later, a few indictments later, a few trials later and we have JG losing everything and Dr MacNay I believe going to prison. Upon his release I was told that he returned to Canada and passed away.
In looking at Macnay we find this URL:
http://healthfraud.org/tx/news/aloe.htm

United States Attorney
District of Maryland
Lynne A. Battaglia
Northern Division

July 7, 1999

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
FOR FURTHER INFORMATION
CONTACT
LYNNE A. BATTAGLIA
(410) 209-4836
"United States Attorney Lynne A. Battaglia, Acting Assistant Attorney General David W. Ogden, and Food and Drug Administration Commissioner Jane E. Henney, M.D., announced today the indictment of Allen J. Hoffman, Odus M. Hennessee, Donald L. MacNay, M.D., and T-Up, Inc. on criminal charges of conspiring to commit violations of federal laws in connection with the promotion, sale, and distribution of an unapproved new drug known as "T-UP," purportedly a concentrated form of aloe vera. Allen J. Hoffman, age 52, is a Baltimore resident. Mr. Hoffman is the President of T-Up, Inc., which is a Maryland corporation and corporate defendant located in Baltimore, Maryland. Odus M. Hennessee, a 50 year old Oklahoma resident, is the President of Cosmetic Specialty Labs, Inc., a corporation located in Lawton, Oklahoma. Dr. Donald L. MacNay is a 62 year old resident of Manassas, Virginia. Dr. McNay had a practice in Manassas and in Annandale, Virginia, doing business under the name of "The Piedmont Orthopedic Clinic.".......................................... ..................................Donald MacNay, M.D. is scheduled for an initial appearance before U.S. Magistrate Judge Susan Gauvey on July 8, 1999 at 11 am. Allen Hoffman and Odus Hennessee are scheduled to have their initial appearances on July 16, 1999 at 10:00 am.
http://www.yourpurelife.com/articles/cancer2.php
"Doctor McNay has since had his medical license revoked, following the deaths of four people he treated with aloe vera, who came to him from as far away as Waco, Texas. And he has been indicted on charges of defrauding cancer patients. Despite stories like these, thousands of people still opt for unproven alternative treatments. One of the main things driving them is a belief that traditional cancer medicines, radiation and chemotherapy drugs are poisons. "
http://scholar.lib.vt.edu/VA-news/VA-Pilot/issues/1997/vp971119/11190541.htm
MANASSAS - A doctor's aide who helped administer unorthodox and possibly fatal aloe vera treatments to dying cancer patients went free when a judge dropped charges against him for lack of evidence.
Ronald Ragan Sheetz worked for Dr. Donald MacNay, an orthopedic surgeon under investigation in the deaths of three patients. MacNay charged $12,000 up front for intravenous aloe vera treatments that are not approved by the Food and Drug Administration.
MacNay's medical license was suspended last month, and a criminal investigation is continuing.
Sheetz, 41, was charged with practicing nursing without a license and obtaining drugs by fraud. Sheetz has no medical training and began working for MacNay as a volunteer after being a patient.
Prosecutor Paul Ebert said Sheetz performed invasive procedures, such as administering an IV, that require a nursing license. Sheetz' lawyer, Mark Newman, agreed Sheetz had no nursing license. But Newman said the duties that Sheetz performed in MacNay's office did not include anything that violated the law.
Prince William General District Judge Charles F. Sievers agreed.
``What tells me a nurse has to do this invasive procedure?'' the judge asked Ebert before dismissing both charges.

The Washington Post had a series of articles about McNay and his clinic.
3 Indicted in Aloe Vera Treatments
Federal Charges Brought in Md. Against Ex-Doctor, Supplier and Manufacturer
[FINAL Edition]
The Washington Post - Washington, D.C.
Author: Maria Glod
Date: Jul 9, 1999
Section: METRO
Text Word Count: 622
A federal grand jury in Baltimore has indicted a former Manassas doctor, a Baltimore distributor and an Oklahoma manufacturer for allegedly conspiring to defraud terminally ill cancer patients from around the country by treating them with an unapproved aloe vera solution.
Donald L. MacNay, 62, a former orthopedic surgeon; Allen J. Hoffman, 52, owner of Baltimore-based T-UP Inc.; and Odus M. Hennessee, 50, president of Cosmetic Specialty Labs Inc., of Lawton, Okla., are accused of promoting the aloe vera solution as a cure for cancer, HIV and AIDS, herpes and various autoimmune disorders.
MacNay lost his license to practice medicine last year after Virginia investigators suggested that the treatments hastened the deaths of four patients. The patients traveled to the Piedmont Orthopedic Clinic in Manassas, where MacNay allegedly charged them thousands of dollars to inject the solution. The intravenous use of aloe vera is not approved by the Food and Drug Administration and is illegal in the United States.

Ex-Aide to Testify in Aloe Vera Case
[FINAL Edition]
The Washington Post - Washington, D.C.
Author: Josh White
Date: Jun 2, 1999
Section: PRINCE WILLIAM EXTRA
Text Word Count: 399
Ronald R. Sheetz, a former auto mechanic with no formal medical training, pleaded guilty last week to two felony counts of prescription fraud. Four felony charges of false pretenses were reduced to misdemeanors as part of his agreement. Prince William Commonwealth's Attorney Paul B. Ebert said that Sheetz agreed to help prosecutors in their case against Donald L. MacNay, an orthopedic surgeon charged with defrauding the cancer patients.
MacNay came under scrutiny in September 1997, when two men died shortly after receiving an aloe-vera-based treatment at his clinic.The men, one from Michigan and another from Texas, had traveled to Manassas in the hope of finding a miracle cure and died in MacNay's office shortly after treatment began.



The Washington Post - Washington, D.C.
Author: Josh White
Date: Jun 20, 1999
Section: PRINCE WILLIAM EXTRA
Text Word Count: 629
A lawsuit filed in Prince William County Circuit Court this week claims that the therapy the Crabbes found -- intravenous aloe vera treatment -- was a hoax designed to give terminal cancer patients a glimmer of hope while draining them of thousands of dollars. The lawsuit names the Manassas doctor who administered the therapy as well as the manufacturer and the distributor of the aloe vera substance, asking for millions and saying that Douglas Crabbe's death was hastened by the treatments.
Reston attorney Robert T. Hall, who is representing the Crabbe family in the pending civil lawsuit, said this week that Douglas Crabbe was essentially lured into believing that aloe vera was a "miracle cure" that would heal his cancer. Hall alleges that (Donald L.) MacNay worked in cooperation with T-Up, a Maryland company, to recruit patients in order to finance a business deal in Costa Rica.

DRJG turns up in the investigation here:
Second Va. Doctor Is Named in Aloe Treatment Probe
Leesburg Physician Investigated After Witness Says She Saw Him Give Intravenous Injections
[FINAL Edition]
The Washington Post - Washington, D.C.
Author: Leef Smith
Date: Feb 28, 1998
Section: METRO
Text Word Count: 701
A second Northern Virginia doctor was linked today to a state investigation into illegal intravenous aloe treatments as the Virginia Board of Medicine continued hearing testimony in the case of Donald L. MacNay, of Manassas.
Wendy Daley, the daughter of an Alabama man who was treated by MacNay last March, testified that she had witnessed Leesburg doctor John Grauerholz administer several aloe injections to her father when MacNay was out of his office.
State prosecutors said today that Grauerholz was under investigation by the state medical investigators. Grauerholz would not comment today, but last week he said in a brief telephone interview: "I would prefer not to discuss my dealings with Dr. MacNay. I was affiliated with him, but I am no longer affiliated with him."


Part of how this all under the radar is the spelling of McNay's name. Under MacNay you find another set of articles.
http://www.fda.gov/FDAC/departs/2002/302_irs.html

http://www.news-star.com/stories/040798/lfe_doctor.html
Tuesday, April 7, 1998
Doctor who used aloe vera treatments for cancer indicted

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last modified at 9:29 a.m. on Tuesday, April 7, 1998
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------



MANASSAS, Va. (AP) -- A doctor who treated cancer with aloe vera shots and may have hastened the deaths of several terminally ill cancer patients was indicted Monday.
Dr. Donald L. MacNay, whose state medical license was revoked Feb. 28, was charged with two counts of dispensing a controlled substance, two counts of false pretenses and two counts of attempted false pretenses, according to court records in Prince William County.
The indictment of MacNay, 61, an orthopedic surgeon with no known training in cancer treatment, followed a state police investigation into the deaths of four people he treated.
MacNay's attorney, R. Randolph Willoughby, said, "I don't think it's right. ... He is innocent until proven guilty and he's innocent in my book."
Prosecutor Paul Ebert said there was insufficient evidence that the aloe vera treatments caused the patients' deaths, although such treatments have not been approved by the Food and Drug Administration. Aloe vera is a plant extract often used in skin creams.
"These people were terminally ill," Ebert said. "We didn't present any indictments on manslaughter since we couldn't prove the substance caused the death."
MacNay's medical license was revoked following a hearing in Richmond during which the Virginia Board of Medicine concluded the injections may have been a factor in three deaths.
According to testimony at the hearing, MacNay treated more than a dozen people with an intravenous mixture of aloe vera and cesium.
Margie Lowery, whose husband, Tommy, was one of MacNay's patients who died, said she was glad that MacNay would be called to account.
"I thought they would go after manslaughter, but I'm not unhappy with what's happened either," she said by telephone from her home near Birmingham, Ala. "I just thank God that something has happened."
Mrs. Lowery testified before the medical board that her husband was able to eat, care for himself and even drive to Virginia before undergoing MacNay's treatment.
Afterward, she said, "his eyes were set back in his head. He turned vanilla-colored ... He could hardly walk, and his thighs ballooned up. I was afraid my husband would die before my children could get there."
He died several weeks later.
Also indicted was an aide to the doctor.
The charges against MacNay carry a maximum sentence of 160 years. MacNay could not be reached for comment; his phone number is unlisted.
http://www.psa-rising.com/medicalpike/aloe.htm
http://www.aidsfraud.com/fraud_fraudclaims?2.6
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0AYN/is_6_24/ai_n18612989
Donald L. MacNay, Hoffman's codefendant in a 22-count indictment of July 1999, pled guilty to fraud and conspiracy charges on March 29, 2000 and received a 17-month sentence.
Do a google search of Macnay and aloe vera and you will find many articles about this. I do not think the LC had anything to do with this clinic except with whatever relationship Dr MaCnay had with the LC and Lyn. What is interesting about all of this is that in alternative medicine circles, a lot of the chicanery is based on using conspiracies to create a bigger problem and the huckster's cure which is to combat that. Strange, but you notice a lot of things after you leave a cult.
I am hoping that the info here will prompt some memories to sort out what else happened to DRJG and Dr. MaCnay. I remember when we first started to contact people off of the Liberty Lobby lists many people were big on Laetrile as the cure the Govt is hiding from the people because of a conspiracy. You would see many ads in Spotlight for either laetrile treatments or how to get rich with laetrile.
No matter how you went in to the LC and no matter how high up you thought you were, everyone loses something. After all of these decades, the list of people who lost their money, lives, life, careers, families just grows as Lyn has new crop of yutes to harvest before he kicks the bucket.
In the end we have two broke MDs where one went to prison while the other had his license to practice medicine revoked in Va, NJ and NY state. No matter what Dr John ended up doing in the LC, he ended up completely different than he ever would have imagined before he met the LC and Lyn.
The trail of people who have been harmed by this cult will never end.
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

05-01-2008, 09:36 PM

howie

A bit unimportant to anything: My blog's resident Larouchie, revenire, popped up for a brief ... um... conversation(?) relating to things with the Democratic primary. Surely it is obvious he does not come from a "Debating Society", and as with anything with there's nothing he is going to say that hasn't been pushed out via Larouche's literature, which at that moment basically fell behind the Hillary Clinton spin.
revenire Says:
April 26th, 2008 at 7:41 pm
have u heard of an open convention
delegates pledged to mickey mouse can vote for whomever they want to
all this talk of superdelegates is nothing but a brainwashing trick that works on you
it is stupid and you fell for it
obama? hedge fund boy who sends jobs overseas by the 10s of 1000s
he is no good and his "campaign" is a sham
but you're too stupid to realize that aren't you
moderate that
Me:
April 27th, 2008 at 12:47 pm e
delegates pledged to mickey mouse can vote for whomever they want to
Delegates pledged to Mickey Mouse were selected because of their remarkable loyalty to Mickey Mouse.
all this talk of superdelegates is nothing but a brainwashing trick that works on you
Uh huh. Actually the fact is Hillary will win only if she brings them over as a block. Anything less ensues the inevitable Obama nomination, sham campaign or not. But when that happens your leader can fall to the line of it being forced by Royatin, Gore, and Pelosi.
The problem for you is simply that your leader's support for Hillary Clinton is unbelievably contrived and replete with contradictions and rationalizations which strain credulity.
revenire Says:
April 27th, 2008 at 8:48
obviously, you've never been to a convention as a delegate
you're just a sham and you know it
jumper brigade… how do you like larouche being right?
history has vindicated the man 100%
you are totally wrong about the democratic party conventions
Me:
April 28th, 2008 at 10:34 am e
Two things I do know: I know that the conventions do not operate as they did in 1932, and I know that the Larouchies who hover around them every four years have had ZERO effect on any of them.
Actually I was wrong. The contrivance of the Clinton support of your leader is one of the problems. The other is the nature of the opposition to Obama; the reason Larouche opposes Barack Obama is because he opposes miscegenation.
Disappointingly I did not get around to mentioning the absurdity of an accolyte for an 8-time presidential "pre"-candidate referencing anyone's presidential campaign as a "sham".

05-01-2008, 09:56 PM

eaglebeak

Scrimscraw--
You're absolutely right. Tragedy and Hope was a Labor Committee bible, an Anglophobe's pipe dream, carted around by all sorts of LCers doing "research." They talked about it endlessly.
Yep, you (and all of us) can read 'em like a book.... A bad book.

05-02-2008, 08:31 PM

xlcr4life 2 Attachment(s)

Quote:
Originally Posted by howie
A bit unimportant to anything: My blog's resident Larouchie, revenire, popped up for a brief ... um... conversation(?) relating to things with the Democratic primary. Surely it is obvious he does not come from a "Debating Society", and as with anything with there's nothing he is going to say that hasn't been pushed out via Larouche's literature, which at that moment basically fell behind the Hillary Clinton spin.

Howie, the cult has to whip up another round of hysteria for a webcast after next weeks primary. Helga issued some of the lunacy for the cult to follow a few days ago about why the British are after Hillary......cause Larouche is running her campaign!
From the April 29th briefing
HELGA ZEPP-LAROUCHE'S EUROPEAN BRIEFING:
RESISTANCE GROWING TO BRITISH 'ANSCHLUSS' OF EUROPE -
Here is Helga's European briefing call for Monday April 28, 2008:
HELGA ZEPP-LAROUCHE: Okay, good morning. The world is rapidly moving towards a point of decision, if we are going to go into a new dark age, and a potential new world war; or if rationality and sanity can be coming out of this in a winning fashion by establishing a new world economic order. And obviously key to this decision is what is going on in the United States, and its ramifications for the rest of the world, and in particular, what we are doing here in Europe.> Now, Lyn has announced that he will do his next webcast, on May 7th, which is one day after the Indiana and North Carolina primaries, and Lyn has put it very pointedly that this will be deciding the conflict which has been raging for the last 140 years, between Lincoln's republican United States and the British Empire. And the place where this is most acutely fought out is the U.S. Presidential campaign, where the question is, will the
British designs functions by knocking out Hillary Clinton, and imposing some form of Bloomberg/Gore/whatnot control of the United States, or not. And basically, I think it's really very, very clear that if you look at the rest of the world, that this is an endgame question. And what is really at stake, is the British threat to detonate a world war, which would be without parallel to anything which the world has ever seen before. Just to say a couple of words on the U.S. situation, which is very, very tense, and dramatic. Because, on the one side, you have the Obama delusion collapsing. Obama is showing clear signs of being worn out, and after the Pennsylvania primary, there is also no question that Hillary is winning, but exactly because that is the case, there are very, very dubious campaigns being launched against her, from London, and this takes the form of, despite the fact that she has clearly the momentum--she has 120,000 more votes than Obama in total. She has won in all the
states which are crucial to win in the November, against the Republicans, namely the big states like California, New York, Texas, Pennsylvania, and so forth. So if somebody's really
serious about winning the Democratic Party, it's Hillary very clearly, because Obama has only won in these little states, which do not really count so much in the November election.
But there is still the effort to derail her, and one form this takes is that people who endorsed her before, are walking away from her. So the new plot which is underway, which we found out, is that the agents in the Democratic Party are discussing the idea of having a new roster of candidates. The DNC wants to have a special meeting in June where the superdelegates are supposed to discuss the idea to put up new candidates, and select
one of them-- which obviously would be completely disregarding the opinion of the voters who voted. And this is exactly what happened in 1932, when similar agents tried to get rid of FDR, who was the frontrunner at that time. The reason why this is happening is very clear: They are afraid of her, because she is obviously too closely tied to the ideas of Lyn, and she has come out very clearly for the welfare of the lower 80 percent of the population, and none of the other candidates is doing that. And she has also attacked free trade, and similar things, so this is why Lyn has decided to make his new webcast on the 7th of May, which is exactly one day after the North Carolina election, which polls say Obama will win, and the Indiana election on the same day, which is very likely going to Hillary Clinton. Now, this whole thing is run from London. And therefore, if it is very clear, if the United States is not going the way they want, then naturally the European Treaty also looks bad. Then
NATO does not function in the way they plan--basically turning NATO into a global intervention force--and the whole plan does not function. So, therefore, we should really explain to people that the Hillary candidacy is very important for what is happening with
the Lisbon Treaty, because if Obama, McCain or anybody else would be the next President of the United States, then the Lisbon Treaty plot would go ahead. While if Hillary Clinton would win, then this is a completely different matter."

Next we go to EIR where John Hoefle provides this incredible forecasting which shows why the Elites around the globe flock to Larouche for advice.
http://www.larouchepub.com/other/200..._brit_emp.html
The United States is in a war against the British Empire, a war over the future of our nation and the future of the planet. Under the onslaught of Anglo-Dutch Liberal geopolitics, war, pestilence, famine, and death are spreading across the globe. Nations are being destabilized, populations are being destroyed, civilization itself is dying. It is deliberate, it is genocidal, and it is the policy of the British Empire.
Wow. Now I understand why deadenders in Leesburg look so bad and have that vacant look in their eyes. All they need is a sign saying the "The end is near" to be complete.
Wait a minute, the cult has their own version of that. Check out the photos below and try to guess which one is Hoefle Choice A or B. They both have the same theme.
Hint, one picture is from a Schiller Institute conference from 4 years ago.
"The Crash You Were Hoping For is Here"
September 4-5, 2004
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

05-02-2008, 08:53 PM

xlcr4life

LaroucheCare and the miscare of members and long term effects.

There will be more on LaroucheCare as the stories will start to come in and get sorted out. In security there was a member who sounded very similar to who Hecker was describing. We had a member named Scott T who was married to Nereida or Neddy as we called her. You rarely saw Scott and when you did he looked real bad. The story (in the LC there is usually a cover story to fog everything) was the Scott was suffereing from some disorder which was effecting him severely. The cause of this disorder as the story goes was that he was having multiple personality problems since he was doing so many undercover calls to the KKK and other hate groups. The first problem is that we were really doing overt friendly calls to hate groups and undercover calls to environmental groups, Jewish orgs and anyone Lyn deemed his delusional enemy. The second problem is that this evades the issue of whether he was getting appropriate care.
All we have to do to see the benovelence of the LC is to see how early founder and NC Tom Ascher ended up after taking a bullet at Lincoln Detox. Ascher soon began a downward spiral where he was sent to the NYC office and ended up in our printing plant along with other burnt out LCers. If you walked into that plant you were not met with enthusiastic workers but very slow moving and lethargic LCers who were placed there for manual labor because they could not function in a local office.

Ascher soon found himself on the streets when petrified ex members ran into him in various parts of NYC scavenging like a homeless person for scraps. In Baltimore it was reported that he would go outside the ofice and stand on the curb and make loud , howling noises till someone would come down and give him a few bucks or some food. That someone was his brother John who for a long time, the local LYM were not told was related to Tom. Ascher's wife Rochelle, was convicted of crimes in our fraud trials and had the audacity to appear on Congress asking about Social Security benefits for the poor elderly, the same elderly that she was convicted of theft from and left poor 20 years earlier.
Why did Tom get shot in the first place?
That is a good question and in the LC because lyn changes the directives so fast, it was never answered or even discussed. This is a typical Lyn directive where HE sends YOU to take a bullet or a beating while he is safely ensconsed in a safe house with shot gun toting guards typing his next opus .
Maybe, just maybe, Tom Ascher got shot over what we were doing inside and outside of Lincoln Detox.

http://209.85.207.104/search?q=cache:57f_4EaguqAJ:www.cures-not-wars.org/ibogaine/chap03.html+ned+rosinsky+and+Lincoln+detox&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us
Whoa, is the present Doctor to the LYM Stars the same Dr. Ned Rosinsky? Is he here suspected of being an informant of sorts?

"Much of the rest of the Panther serve-the-people program survived, shorn of armed struggle, in community-based movements of the'70s and '80s like the Black accupuncturists. In fact, YIPSTER TIMES, in 1977, ran a story about the mysterious death of the head of Lincoln Detox only hours before he was to meet Carter Drug Czar Peter Bourne. The Editor who solicited the story, Bob Sisko, attributed it to followers of Lyndon LaRouche, who were vying to take the program over from ex-Panthers. In the fall-out, Dr. Michael Smith became the head of Lincoln Detox.
Later, Smith would confirm to writer Dennis King that a LaRouche supporter on staff at Lincoln had been feeding info on the Panthers to the New York Police Department. A public campaign emerged against the nest of radicals and Black Panthers at Lincoln Detox. As Ed Koch swept into office as Mayor of New York City, on a platform of cutting all city funding of drug treatment--a shortfall the State of New York was supposed to pick up, but never did--then-State Senator Charles Schumer and other questioned why any government funds at all were going to programs that promoted Black history and community activism as part of treatment......................
As for the LaRouchoids, after riding the National Anti-Drug Coalition (NADC) to mass-movement status in '76 and '77, LaRouche was denounced in '78 by then Black Muslim leader Wallace Muhammed, who called him "hateful." NCLC propaganda (Queen of England dealing dope and all) turned out to be carelessly borrowed whole cloth from the rantings of Nazi propaganda chief Joseph Goebbels, with anti-Semitic references too bold even for the Black Muslims. But perhaps in return for ratting out Lincoln Detox, cooperation and support was unimpeded at the National Institute on Drug Abuse (NIDA), in the person of Dr. Thomas Gleaton and the "parents' groups" (including Sue Rusche of suburban Atlanta and Otto Moulton of Massachusetts) that NIDA had put together to publicize the anti-marijuana pseudo-science of one Gabriel Nahas.
In interviews much later with Dennis King, the name that LaRouche defectors linked to the eviction of the Panthers from Lincoln Detox was Dr. Ned Rosinsky. With the Black movement against heroin neutralized, the Nahas group had no problem working closely with Dr. Rosinsky and LaRouche's "War on Drugs" Organization well into the '80's. They incorporated key LaRouche tenets into their "drug prevention" message, e.g., confounding addictive and non-addictive druts, and the attitude that any drug-induced experience constituted a theft from Society. They also co-sponsored conferences at NYU in '79 and Columbia in '80, featuring supposed findings of Nahas (the student of the Nazi Stringaris) first presented in 1978 at the University of Rheims, his alma mater."
Black Panthers, guns, police informants, we certainly have something pretty familiar to people who follow the LC don't we Barbara.
Barbara, have you considerd that some of Zeke's problems may have been caused by the beatings he took for Lyn during Mop Up? Only today do we know about the long term effects of concussions and have cognitive tests and scanning technology to see the long term effects. Anyone who was in the LC and part of Mop UP may have suffered a concussion where the long term effects do include depression.
For God's sake Barabra, see what Zeke went through and ask your self how many boots or clubs to the head poor Zeke took for this madness. How much more do you have to read about here before you figure this all out? Some of us really do not wish to see you and Zeke spend the last of your years sacrificing years off your lives so Lyn gets a few more months. Hasn't he taken enough from the both of you? Today Zeke should carry a book called "The Philosophy of Poverty" on how to stretch a buck.
Below is just one of many possible beatings Zeke may have taken over the years. Tom takes a bullet to his body while Zeke takes fists and clubs along with chairs to his skull from what people have been telling me over the years. DO you have any short term or long term disability through Lyn? Do you have anything to protect you from the long term effects of those carcinogens you breathe in daily raising money yutes?
That same street you have your card table shrine on may be your post LYM retirement plan.
http://archives.econ.utah.edu/archives/marxism/2004w16/msg00214.htm
To: marxism@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [Marxism] From Lenin to Earth Day
From: Waistline2@xxxxxxx
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 10:47:26 EDT
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In a message dated 4/22/2004 8:03:08 AM Central Standard Time,
MLause@xxxxxxxxxxxx writes:
>At the time, most radicals had the good sense to see it as good
sign...not a diversion from the movement against the Vietnam War but a
broadening of that dissent into new channels. Even the ideologically
constipated SWP issued a rather nice election button with a factory
belching out smoke and a caption "Capitalism fouls things up." If
memory serves, the few exceptions on the Left at the time were groups
like the LaRouche cult, which was heavily riddled with police agents and
ended up defending the wonders of nuclear power.<

Reply
Damn, I forget about this stuff . . . but then again you are the resident
historical memory. The National Caucus of Labor Committees (NCLC) were flat out
fascists. LaRouche called himself Lynn Marcus back then - Lenin/Marx.
I believe it was 1970 or maybe 1971 when they attempted to recruit us. They
send their resident black theoretician . . . a guy named Zeke Boyd . . . if
memory serves me correct. This guy looked like he was on medication or dope and
carried a copy of Marx "Poverty of Philosophy" in his back pocket. I think he
was smart and we met with him a couple of times.
He talked about what would become the NCLC "Mop Up Campaign." The "Mop Up
Campaign" meant physically attacking members of the CPUSA. Our political "beef"
disagreement, with the CPUSA was basically their passivity. Factory life and
a factory town like Detroit basically meant you cannot take to serious a
disagreement with the guy you work next to on the assembly line, just because he
understood the same book different. After a year or two no one remembers what
the hell we were arguing about.
Mr. Boyd explained why they were attacking the CPUSA and asked "what is your
political position." He was asked to leave the office because we felt he was
stupid.
He returned about a month later, after their group attacked members of the
CPUSA during a demonstration. We stated there was really nothing to talk about
because their group acted like cops and fascists.
He insisted on coming in and talking. He asked if we had really read the
"Poverty of Philosophy."
"Look brother what we read is none of your business. That **** about jumping
on people is going to get you in trouble. Y'all acting like the police and the
Hitler squad."
Boyd basically stated, "look, we like you guys and the black workers are
important. You have to take sides in this dispute or get 'Mopped Up."
I do not remember the exact flow of events, but at that point Comrade *****
said, "We are not very polite and accustomed to inviting people outside for a
slug fist. Some people think we are rude. The only way I can make you
understand our meaning is like this."
\Then Comrade +++++++** slapped the **** out of Zeke.
Zeke fell to the floor and I did not know what to do so I started kicking
this muther****er in his back and stomach with my size 12 foot, while trying to
avoid his head. I figured he was already suffering from traumatic head injury
to come into our office threatening to "beat us down" because we did not have
the "right" position on the CPUSA.
What I remember next is getting him a wash clothe to clean his face. I was
the youngest so I had to do all the grunt work - elementary task. (Pardon my
lengthy explanation but comrades from other countries have written me and stated
they were confused on my use of the English language. The King's English is a
serious problem for me and everyone else because it is a language of economic
discourse.)
Comrade ****** handed him the telephone and demanded that he called someone
to arrange a meeting with their "National Committee" to resolve the "Mop Up"
issue and we were not going to debate Marx "Poverty of Philosophy."

Two months later this same Zeke Boyd shows up at the office with an official
statement. We look at each other and figure this guy has to be on dope. He
states that the "National Committee" rejects our request for a meeting and that
we are black nationalist but on the right side of the political curve.
We figured that we kicked your ass and that they did not want to fight anyone
that fought back. Zeke never came back after informing us that we would not
be attacked.
Now, the NCLC were a group back then advocating a problem to sale tractors to
the Third World as the path of development. As I understand events the NCLC
evolved from the split in the SDS - Students for a Democratic Society.

xlcr4life@hotmail.com

05-02-2008, 11:18 PM

scrimscraw

He's baaaaackk!! Just up today, the LARpac website announcement of a new issue of Dynamis reads to my ear as the triumphant return of future Marvel comics writer Mark Samet. Who else writes like this? (http://www.larouchepac.com/news/2008/05/02/april-2008-dynamis.html)

Quote:

Read this issue as a defiant act. The British oligarchy, and their smelly accomplices, want you to be stupid, so that they can do things to you – like foist a corrupt lackey, such as Al "16 tons" Gore, onto our Presidency, with your gullible support. Stick a thumb in their eye, and read this issue of Dynamis with the intent of becoming one of the core teachers of a next generation of revolutionary scientists and artists. Get your copy at http://www.wlym.com/~seattle/dynamis/ now!

You go, Mark! I hope you can get a night off to go catch the new Iron Man movie.
In the same announcement, we find:

Quote:
Accompanying this absolutely essential paper, are reports from two of the first members of LaRouche's "Attic" team, Meghan Rouillard and Ben Deniston, on their researches into Gauss's investigations of the Pentagramma Mirificum. These investigations help us to peer into what, in Gauss's mind, provoked Bernhard Riemann's insight into the nature of our Anti-Euclidean universe.

I know I've been a little out of touch, but is Lyn now stuffing the Yutes in the "Attic" as well as the "Basement"?? I just hope he's not stuffing them in that trunk in the closet with the bad odor.
Our Anti-Euclidean universe, indeed. Wild, man! :D

05-03-2008, 12:30 AM

candor

"The British oligarchy, and their smelly accomplices ..."
Hmm, so I guess the LaRouche cult really has been infiltrated by British agents after all.

05-03-2008, 03:55 AM

boomer70

LC's smelly secrets

Quote:
Originally Posted by xlcr4life
As for the LaRouchoids, after riding the National Anti-Drug Coalition (NADC) to mass-movement status in '76 and '77, LaRouche was denounced in '78 by then Black Muslim leader Wallace Muhammed, who called him "hateful." NCLC propaganda (Queen of England dealing dope and all) turned out to be carelessly borrowed whole cloth from the rantings of Nazi propaganda chief Joseph Goebbels, with anti-Semitic references too bold even for the Black Muslims. But perhaps in return for ratting out Lincoln Detox, cooperation and support was unimpeded at the National Institute on Drug Abuse (NIDA), in the person of Dr. Thomas Gleaton and the "parents' groups" (including Sue Rusche of suburban Atlanta and Otto Moulton of Massachusetts) that NIDA had put together to publicize the anti-marijuana pseudo-science of one Gabriel Nahas.
In interviews much later with Dennis King, the name that LaRouche defectors linked to the eviction of the Panthers from Lincoln Detox was Dr. Ned Rosinsky. With the Black movement against heroin neutralized, the Nahas group had no problem working closely with Dr. Rosinsky and LaRouche's "War on Drugs" Organization well into the '80's. They incorporated key LaRouche tenets into their "drug prevention" message, e.g., confounding addictive and non-addictive druts, and the attitude that any drug-induced experience constituted a theft from Society. They also co-sponsored conferences at NYU in '79 and Columbia in '80, featuring supposed findings of Nahas (the student of the Nazi Stringaris) first presented in 1978 at the University of Rheims, his alma mater."

no wonder they don't allow people to post comments on their web sites.

05-03-2008, 08:35 AM

Hank

Quote:
Originally Posted by eaglebeak
Another doctor frequently used these days by the org in Leesburg, I believe, is Ned Rosinsky, a shrink (apparently) who was for years a member, is married to a former member, lives in Maryland, and is personally "very close to" although not officially a member of, the LaRouche org.
If someone needs to get in touch with him, I can probably dig up his number.
Barbara Boyd took LYM members who were "depressed" to him, but if someone were in Security out at "the house," then Rick Magraw would definitely have been his boss.
I have strong, strong reason to believe that Rosinsky prescribed medication for the "depressed" LYMers, so I think it entirely plausible that he would do the same for whoever Rick might have brought to him.....
As to the timing of E's letters and plans, the split in Europe occurred in the fall of 2006, not 2005, if that's relevant. Anyone who was in Wiesbaden a lot would have witnessed some serious disjunction between the European org and the American one, in terms of what the two orgs believed, how they operated, how hard they worked, etc.
I don't know if that would have been relevant in any way. And certainly, if E attended the conference at which Jeremiah Duggan died, that would have been a terrible, terrible experience.
Rick Magraw, by the way, is a Total True Believer, all LaRouche zombie all the time, and therefore a very sinister figure.

It seems like some of you who've been on the message board for awhile, still have ways to get info and know some of the current members. By posting here, am I putting myself or my cousin, E or his family at risk at all?
The medical info is very interesting. My worst case scenario is that my cousin, E., was kept against his will and drugged so he wouldn't reveal "secrets"?
E. was always very loyal and enthusistic about Larouche, up until that Jan 2006, email. And even that was not anti-Larouche, just saying he was depressed and unable to do his job anymore.
And: since E wrote that he wanted to come home for a "change of scene" in January 2006, why didn't he?
he wrote that he had depression and memory problems and the "meds" that his boss Rick Magraw gave him, had not helped. He wasn't able to do his job well. So what was he doing there? Wouldn't they have wanted to get rid of him as they did all the boomers?
This man is in his late 50's. He did go to the veterans hospital there, but they didn't do the whole range of tests that they did here after he came home. And now of course, they can find no physical cause or markers for the usual dementia diseases.
Would there have been "secrets" that they would want to keep him from telling? I spoke to him on the phone last week, asked him how the folks in Virginia were, if he had heard from them and he said they had just called him the day before.
E, also had written me about parties and dinners he went to at the house of I believe, a married couple who was in the group. Holidays, singing, wine and good food. Would that be maybe the Kronbergs? In the summer of 2007, shortly before they sent him home, he apparently got in his car, and drove it into a tree. They said it was from his dementia, but I have to wonder.

05-03-2008, 02:27 PM

xlcr4life

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hank
It seems like some of you who've been on the message board for awhile, still have ways to get info and know some of the current members. By posting here, am I putting myself or my cousin, E or his family at risk at all?
The medical info is very interesting. My worst case scenario is that my cousin, E., was kept against his will and drugged so he wouldn't reveal "secrets"?.

I seriously doubt that the cult will do anything of the nature you describe. What the cult does can be seen by what was done to the families of Duggan and Kronberg which involves the death of people in a very public matter. Private retelling and rewriting of a member's problems and reasons for not being around anymore are usually for internal consumption.
In talking to your cousin and reading the many posts here I think you would get a handle on what would be considered a "Secret" of the cult. The basis of how things work is that a member will never have the full story and just a snap shot. However, if you put all of the snapshots together with other member's snapshots you will create a sort of continual image of events and be able to figure out more.
The car crash of you cousin into a tree worries me. That is a potentially huge liability for the entire cult if this was done while under some influence of a med or substance given by any person associated with this whole monstrosity. This action is not as two friends where one person has a headache and the other offers an aspirin. We clearly have a superior to lower level chain of command and directive along with a potential problem with a non licensed person, on behalf of the overall operation dispensing a substance which may be from a doctor in an unprofessional and illegal way. Doctors often have samples of meds given by drug company reps each visit for the MD to use on their patients in a documented fashion. You just do not hand out prescription meds willy nilly to someone to give to someone to give to someone.
I am not a lawyer nor a doctor and you should consult someone appropriate about this. Consider the chain of events if you worked for a company and they had a non medical employee tell you that you need to take a substance as a condition of employment. If you somehow wound up injuring yourself or someone else, the company becomes the target of liability.
This has to be taken seriously because cults have operated under an umbrella of not having to be responsable for their abuses and damage because this is considered a joke.
The condition of your cousin, the dumping of him by the cult to go fend for himself , the car crash, the providing of any substances by the cult is outrageous and to me is criminal.
Again, would any of you tolerate this from a private or government employer if this happened to you? I never, never want anyone who was a member of this crazy pack of filth to be mocked or viewed as someone who deserved such action. We have abusers and the abused. The abused often do not know until they are removed from the environment just how much their lives were effected.
What gnaws at me about your cousins situation is the immediate declaration of his condition and things like a phone call from someone who claims to be his doctor and other actions. You should know that whenever the cult has a serious problem at hand, the "Larouche Method" is to release ink like a squid to evade detection and conduct disinformation.
I have been out of this hell hole for decades. We really do not know exactly how desperate and demented the cult is when we have Lyn nearing the end of his life and members who have devoted decades to supporting this lunacy. All bets are off as to guessing just how deep their hate and fantasy life can reach to protect this. You just have to read what the cult wrote about the Duggan family and the Kronberg family to rethink the impossible. Nothing is out of the question with a cult which has not one iota of remorse for any of its endless abuses, disinformation and trial of harm.

We have some more info to post later about Tom Ascher and the set of events which surrounded his descent in the LC. From some of the emails sent to me I need to fine tune the description of the NYC office. The confusion comes from Tom being assigned to a printing office which from what I can tell was NOT PMR as that was set up after he left according to ex members who were in NYC at the time. This all happened at least thirty years ago and was when we had the W29th st national office which had the regional office on a different floor or with a room near by.
In the LC you always find that there are different versions of what you are told or see, depending on where you happened to be at the time. This is not by accident and I always wish to thank ex members who take the time to provide more clues and info about LC history. No matter what you think you experienced, it always seems worse than what you first thought.
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

05-03-2008, 02:51 PM

eaglebeak

Labor Committee Parties Hank--
Speaking as someone who knew the Kronbergs very well, I can say with a good deal of certainty that the parties E attended were not at their house--unless E was a member for many, many years.
I say this because, although in the early days they did give parties, and Ken was a terrific cook, from about 1990 or 1991 forward, they stopped having organization-wide parties.
This was partly because after the New York trial of 1989, Molly was considered to be trouble with a capital T, and she in turn considered most of the leadership to be nuts, so was not interested in entertaining them.
What the Kronbergs continued to have were Christmas dinners to which they invited close friends, Passover seders to which they invited close friends, Hanukkah parties for the kids (again, close friends). But that stopped at the end of the '90s, roughly, when other members of their circle started having the seders, etc., instead.
For a little while at one point in 2000, 2001, 2002, something like that, they had a Plato reading group meeting at their house, but that met mostly at the office and fell apart, according to Molly, because she kept disagreeing with Lyn's various moronic dicta on Plato, culminating in her rather harsh criticism of Lyn's stupid "analysis" of the Parmenides.
In the early 1990s, Molly's mother and Ken's father moved to Leesburg, so that changed their social life in the org, too.
There was a time, maybe around 2000, when they were having the Spannauses for dinner once a week as a routine, because (Molly told me this) they found it depressing to see the Spannauses eating dinner in the office every night and felt sorry for them.
However, after 9/11, with the organization's outrageous position on that, Molly said she found it impossible to sit through meals with the Spannauses or anyone else on a regular basis without denouncing the org's line. At the same time, Molly's hip was getting worse (arthritis; it was replaced eventually), so it was just too much hassle.
So I would say for the last six years of Ken's life at least, the Kronbergs didn't even have people to dinner, with a very few exceptions who were close, close friends.
Anyone who knew the Kronbergs could see that over the last years before the tragedy, they were progressively withdrawing from personal social contact with Labor Committee members. LaRouche may blame this on Molly's being a Bush-funding Government agent, and "Dr." Ned Rosinksy may blame it on Ken's depression, but personally, I think they no longer trusted most other members emotionally, and found most other members hair-raising, intellectually.
People who threw lots of parties in recent years were Bonnie and Fletcher James [usually a very "selective" guest list though--they liked to focus on the NEC, or National Executive Committee and National Committee (NC)--which would be Nancy and (then) Ed Spannaus, Jeff and Michele Steinberg, Gerry and Suzanne Rose, Will Wertz and first Marianna, now Cruz del Carmen, Dennis and Gretchen Small, Tony Papert and his inner doeppelgaenger]--anyhow, the Jameses like to give the social events of the season.
Other big party-givers, at least when I was around, included the Steinbergs and the Spannauses (Nancy's guest list was usually framed around people on whom she wished to do "political interventions"; very rarely did she get together with people to have fun, an alien concept).
The Steinbergs went in for heavy-drinking parties. The Spannauses went in for Christmas dinners and national holiday cookouts.
Ian Levit gave a lot of parties, too.

Are You Endangering E?
I am speaking only out of my own personal knowledge, opinions, and prejudices: I don't think you are endangering E or his family by posting here.
Although Lyndon LaRouche and his immediate circle love to talk violently, and although Lyn has for decades ranted and raved about his ever-growing army of enemies, he is in real life a total coward, physically and morally. He talks a great game (if you can call it that), but as with so many other things, he's an empty squib.
Although they have a violent history (Mop-Up, RYM, etc.), nowadays they are terrified of the police, terrified of legal repercussions, and terrified of Lyn going to prison, ever since the Alexandria trial.
There are two recent exceptions, so far, that we know of: Jeremiah Duggan and Ken Kronberg.
In Jeremiah's case, I continue to wonder whether some crazed LYMers decided to take matters into their own hands, to "defend" Lyn against a nay-sayer. If any part of the org is dangerous, it's definitely the LYM, who have the energy, the lack of inhibition, and the zombie-like qualities to be dangerous. The Boomers--not so much.
In Ken's case, he was killed not by fists and cars but by words--but he's just as dead, and the words were hate-filled weapons by any standard.
So the organization can do terrible things, and it can kill, whether intentionally or not. The best way to keep the org off your back, of course, is to post everything you know about them.
So today, Barbara Boyd may send Zeke out to take pictures of "illicit" gatherings--where former members and current members can be caught together; or where former members gather at a public event--or she may threaten to sue an investigative reporter when he sends her an email asking her a question--but their power and their reach are very small.
I know that after Ken Kronberg died, and Molly Kronberg began making known her views more and more widely, and more and more intensely, some of her friends and relatives were worried about her safety.
She took certain steps, of course, both physical and legal, but she felt strongly that they were all hat and no cattle.
I was--and am--not so sure, which is why I have occasionally advised her on this board to check her brakes. (And have advised her in private more extensively.)
But hers was a special case of an insider of many years who seemed to have decided to put out very damaging stuff against the org.
By and large, the org lives so far into its bubble (Basements, Attics, Purcellville) that, although they are filled with venom, they can be defended against.

05-03-2008, 06:30 PM

howie

I may as well mention in passing that I was spooked this week when Bill White popped in and left a comment on my blog, Bill White, the proprietor of the nation's second largest neo-nazi website and a general a-hole. Now I just need to find David Duke and I have some kind of tri-fecta.
Last month I saw that Jeff Steinberg has penned this item about the glories of FDR and the 1932 Democratic Convention.
http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/cgi-bin/blogs/voices.php/2008/04/13/lessons_for_denver_fdr_s_1932_victory_ovWith that final paragraph, inserting Larouche into the picture: Today, the financial disintegration has gone far beyond the collapse that FDR faced, and today, once again, London's fascist agents, like Felix Rohatyn and George Shultz, stand in horror at the remotest prospect of the Democratic Party returning to the spirit and substance of FDR. They know that the voice of FDR in today's Democratic Party is that of Lyndon LaRouche, and, while they know that LaRouche is not running for President, they fear his impact on the next Presidency, as much as they feared FDR's election in November 1932.

05-03-2008, 08:42 PM

xlcr4life

Quote:
Originally Posted by howie
I may as well mention in passing that I was spooked this week when Bill White popped in and left a comment on my blog, Bill White, the proprietor of the nation's second largest neo-nazi website and a general a-hole. Now I just need to find David Duke and I have some kind of tri-fecta.[/i]

Howie, once Larouche ran out of money to give the numerous scam artists each week to feed his delusions, they dumped him like hooker dumps a broke john. The people who fed Larouche his daily dose of delusions evolved from the Willis Carto milleu.
Webster Tarpley took over that franchise as he had a radio program which I think was sponsered by American Free Press which is the reincarnation of the Liberty Lobby. Tarpely also has done conferences with very shady people in Europe who have the reputation of the type of people you describe.
This URL has more for you to check out.
http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/search?q=tarpley
One thing you can't help but noticing is that Tarpley and Larouche run virtually the same side show except Tarpley is more successfull and keeps the income to himself instead of signing it over to Larouche like he used to do. Ask Tarpely about what he did with his Mother's home in Long Island after she passed away.
I would not doubt his good friend Tony Chaitkin keeping a close friendship to try to get a job when he goes to LaroucheTown and sees a "No Boomers allowed or rented to" sign.
Here is something about one of Tarpely's circle of love.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Denier's Conference
Hold onto your binoculars, bird lovers. This so-called "9/11 Accountability Conference" to be held February 23-25 at Chandler's Crown Plaza San Marcos is being organized by — get this — a gen-u-wine Holocaust denier.
You heard this cuckoo correctly. The crackpot parade descending on Chandler to discuss why the attacks on 9/11 were an inside job by George W. Bush & Co. are to be led by Eric D. Williams, author of the self-published tome The Puzzle of Auschwitz, which claims there were no gas chambers at the infamous Nazi concentration camp, that Jews were not systematically murdered there, and that, furthermore, Hitler's Final Solution's a prevarication propagated by an international Zionist conspiracy.
Wow! This cockamamie cock-of-the-rock thinks the wacky 9/11 "truth" crowd has finally jumped the proverbial shark!
The Bird was tipped off to Williams' involvement in the conference by blogger Pat Curley of Screwloosechange.blogspot.com, a site devoted to debunking the outrageous lies of the 9/11 "truthers," who're better referred to as "9/11 deniers." Williams' book can be downloaded from online publisher Lulu.com for $4.98, and boy, is it a humdinger. The Ohio-based Williams, who has no degree in history and does not speak German, contemptuously dismisses the mountains of photographic and documentary evidence of the Final Solution and the killings at Auschwitz, a place he refers to as a "reconstructed theme park."
(Please note: Since conversing with this cantankerous condor, Williams has posted a free PDF of his book on his site, www.whatreallyisthematrix.com, along with a "disclaimer" stating he's not a Holocaust denier, despite evidence in his text to the contrary.)
Williams supports his Shoah-shirking claims by attacking and twisting accounts of survivors and legitimate historians, and by citing such discredited sources as the Institute for Historical Review and Fred A. Leuchter, Jr., a hero to neo-Nazis worldwide. Leuchter's shoddily produced "Leuchter Report" rejecting the existence of gas chambers at Auschwitz is thoroughly trashed in Errol Morris' acclaimed documentary Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred A. Leuchter, Jr. Interestingly, when this tweeter caught up with Williams via phone, he said he was unaware of both the well-known Morris doc and subsequent scientific tests refuting Leuchter's findings about the use of the poison Zyklon-B at the camp. He also seemed strangely confused when confronted with the fact that he was essentially parroting what many neo-Nazis hold to be self-evident.
"I'd think the neo-Nazis would want more people to be killed in the Holocaust than for people to say those people weren't killed in the Holocaust," chirped Williams.
Is Williams some sort of revisionist retard? He must've missed ex-Klan leader and white supremacist David Duke's appearance at the recent Holocaust-denier's conference in Tehran, organized by Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, who's referred to the Holocaust as a "myth." There, Duke was reported as saying, "The Holocaust is the device used as the pillar of Zionist imperialism, Zionist aggression, Zionist terror and Zionist murder."
Williams expresses similar sentiments in his Auschwitz book's penultimate chapter, titled "The Zionist Agenda," wherein he states that the Israeli state came about through "the exaggeration (of) the suffering of the Jews during WWII." He further insists there's a plot to "enslave the peoples of the planet" by "Neo-Conservatives, the Catholic Church, various secret societies including the Free Masons, and the Zionists."
Pardon this parakeet, but is there a freakin' head-shrinker in the house?!
Williams himself makes the connection between Holocaust-denial fruitcakery and the wacktivism of 9/11 refuseniks in his intro to The Puzzle of the Holocaust by referring to his previous tome The Puzzle of 9/11, asking, "If we are being lied to about the events of September 11, and its pursuing 'War on Terror,' then what else have we been lied to [sic]?"
Williams, er, denied he's an anti-Semite or a member of any white-power or neo-Nazi org. Still, his book and his role in the powwow call into question the legitimacy of a conference that, even without him, would be a few clowns short of a circus.
For instance, local 9/11 denier Kent Knudson's helping to put together the three-day event. You may recall Knudson from this woodpecker's column "Loose Screws" (September 7, 2006), wherein Knudson asserted that al-Qaeda doesn't exist. Knudson's weirdo Web site, www.cowcrap.org, kvetches about his felony conviction for shooting someone else's cattle on his Snowflake property. Read the site and you'll observe that Knudson suffers from a definite marble deficiency.
Also on the list of speakers are a former follower of Lyndon LaRouche; a publisher of an Idaho-based survivalist newsletter; Dylan Avery, the filmmaker behind the pseudo-documentary Loose Change; perennial PHX Libertarian candidate Ernie Hancock; radio talk show host Charles Goyette of 1100 KFNX AM; and Alessandra Soler Meetze, executive director of AZ's ACLU, whose presence at this Mad Hatter's convention sticks out like a zit on a Playboy Playmate's airbrushed caboose.
"This is the first I've heard of it," Meetze confessed to this clucker when told of Williams' Holocaust-denying. But she disagreed with the argument that her presence at the conference might give oddballs like Williams legitimacy.
"If those are his views, they're certainly atrocious," she said. "Because I personally condemn these views doesn't mean the ACLU should shy away from getting its message across."
Getting its message across to a conference organized by a Holocaust denier, and made up of people who think 9/11 was government-staged? Hey, it's one thing to defend the right of kooks like these to speak, Alessandra. It's another to appear at their meetings.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
What is amazing to read is just how close Tarpley follows the cult in running similar material. Or maybe the cult is copy/pasting Tarpley to save money. There is just enough of Tarpley to show his bend while anyone who is familiar with the Larouche cult has endless dejavu moments upon reading him.
Also notice the familiar pattern of infiltrating leftist groups as well as finding the same anti semitic smelling far right groups the larouche cult has done. Disinformation is what Tarpley is usually accused of causing as well.
In addition, you will find Tarpley sharing a podium and perhaps other things with Helga larouche. They both are part of the Axis for Peace grouping and you find joint meetings with our European members in 9/11 conspiracy clubs.
Here is something of interest as well.
http://once-upon-a-time-in-the-west.blogspot.com/2007/03/useful-idiots-bin-top-sovietrussian.html
Useful Idiots Bin: Top Soviet/Russian general rubs elbows with Western leftist and faux rightist propagandists, promotes Moscow-Tehran line
While the USA and Israel prepare to "smack" nuclear-tipped Iran, the neo-Soviet Union is going to bat for its chief client state by portraying Washington as aggressor. State-run Novosti quoted an anonymous "high-ranking security source," who asserted: "The latest military intelligence data point to heightened U.S. military preparations for both an air and ground operation against Iran. The Pentagon has probably not yet made a final decision as to when an attack will be launched. The Pentagon is looking for a way to deliver a strike again st Iran that would enable the Americans to bring the country to its knees at minimal cost." Novosti also quotes Colonel-General Leonid Ivashov, Vice President of the Academy of Geopolitical Sciences, who recently affirmed that "the Pentagon is planning to deliver a massive air strike on Iran's military infrastructure in the near future." General Ivashov was previously Chief of the Department of General Affairs in the Soviet Ministry of Defense, Secretary of the Council of Defense Ministers of the Commonwealth of Independent States, Chief of the Military Cooperation Department in the Russian Federation's Ministry of Defense, and Joint Chief of Staff of the Russian Armed Forces. Ivashov's pro-Iranian writings have also appeared at the Canadian anti-globalization outfit, the Centre for Research on Globalization. There the general insists that "the US will use nuclear weapon against Iran. This will be the second case of the use of nuclear weapons in combat after the 1945 US attack on Japan."
Ivashov (left) is pictured above with Webster Tarpley, Western leftist conspiracymonger and Lyndon LaRouche operative, at the 2005 "anti-imperialist" Axis for Peace Conference in Brussels. The Axis for Peace is an initiative of the Voltaire Network, a Paris-based non-profit organization that promotes "freedom of speech." It operates under the leadership of Thierry Meyssan, a left-wing French journalist who published 9/11: The Big Lie, which asserts that the "US military ind ustrial complex" orchestrated by September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks in New York City and Washington, DC. Other Axis for Peace speakers include Helga Zepp-LaRouche, the wife of Lyndon. The Axis for Peace panel contains a veritable "who's who" of the International Left and Faux Right, including Tarpley and assorted USA bashers from Syria and other Middle Eastern states, and Eastern Europe. Some specific personalities include: 1) Aram Aharonian, CEO of teleSUR, President Hugo Chavez's pan-Latin American television platform, 2) Jaime Ballesteros, Spanish communist and president of the Havana-based Organization of Solidarity with the People of Asia, Africa and Latin America, and 3) Jesuit priest, Castro chum, Tricontinental Centre founder, and World Social Forum instigator Francois Houtart. Incidentally, in the picture above, behind Ivashov, take note of the poster for teleSUR.
The Axis for Pea ce disseminates pure Soviet propaganda by ascribing the world's misfortunes to the neo-conservatives occuping the White House: "A military coalition has launched itself into an unbridled exploitation of the world's resources and energy reserves. Fuelled by neo-conservatives, it has increased its attacks, practicing all forms of interference, from forcing changes in regimes to colonial-style expansionism. This coalition continually violates the principles of international law as they were established by the conference of the Hague and laid out in the San Francisco Charter." After commending the United Nations as humanity's "last, best hope," the Axis of Peace commends Russia for acting as world "peacemaker": "We salute the mediation of Russia who stands by the application of the nuclear non-proliferation treaty, and the presumption of innocence in international relations. We call upon the UN Ge neral Assembly to support Russia's efforts in favor of the re-establishment of a multilateral dialogue; to support its strong stance against financing terrorism, double standards in international politics and the interference in the internal affairs of sovereign states."
In June 2006 Tarpley appeared at the 9/11 + The Neo-Con Agenda Symposium in Los Angeles, organized by faux rightist conspiracymonger Alex Jones. The nexus between a top Soviet/Russian general and Western anti-USA propagandists provides eloquent testimony to the reality of Soviet manipulation of the Western Left and Faux Right. The fact that Jones, in particular, is only several "elbows" away from Ivashov should prompt all real patriots to consider the fact that "New World Order" doctrine, which adopts a critical analysis of capitalism, is little more than rehashed Marxism. In view of Ivashov's participation in the Axis for Peace, moreover, we have included this body under the "Soviet Organs" category in this blogsite's right column.
In addition to teleSUR, the Kremlin's new European-wide television platform Russia Today, Al Qaeda's unofficial mouthpiece Al Jazeera, Iran's IRIB News Network, and the American Free Press--a neo-fascist Liberty Lobby spin-off--covered the Axis for Peace's 2005 anti-USA rant-in. The Axis for Peace website features links to all of these news (disinformation) agencies. In the picture here Ivashov is pictured with American Free Press journalist Christopher Bollyn, who has appeared on the radio program of globe-trotting pro-Putin white supremacist David Duke and covered conferences of the so-called 9/11 Truth Movement. Bollyn is accused of Holocaust denial. He was also a member of the Axis for Peace panel. O, what a tangled web America's enemies weave!
__._,_.___

You can get a person out of the cult, but sometimes you can't get the cult out of the member.
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

05-04-2008, 02:48 AM

poe

Tarpley went suddenly from denouncing Hillary ( correctly in my opinion ) as a "war-pig" and a "hypocrite" to praising her the way that the LC is. This switch happened instantly. It is almost as if the attacks on him as a Larouche plant forced him back closer to LaRouche.

05-04-2008, 05:19 AM

xlcr4life

LaroucheNoCare Health plan

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hank
In the summer of 2007, shortly before they sent him home, he apparently got in his car, and drove it into a tree. They said it was from his dementia, but I have to wonder.

Hank, I reread that a few times and wonder myself. When the cult creates a story of saying that dementia caused him to hit a tree I view this as squid ink from them. How come nothing like he was driving to fast or missed a turn or blew a tire or was on the phone or drove too fast or any number of things which could have happened?
Why even the need to tell you dementia? Who did the diagnosis? Where are the medical records of a certified medical professional who reviewed this and determined that this was the case. In high elderly population centers you have cases of the elderly who have driven quite safely for a few hundred miles without knowing where they were going. Most accidents you will read about involving the elderly can be attributed to eye sight problems like cataracts at night, unsafe turns, unfamiliarity of the road spikes in blood sugar or heart ailments. I rarely read about dementia being the cause.
You know why?
If there was a real diagnosis of dementia by a trained MD you would have seen a process to prevent the patient under care from doing certain things like driving or doing certain work. You would have seen a referral to a social worker who would assist the person in their daily living arrangement and maybe the process to see what aid or disability benefits could be used as the condition progresses. Why was he still working security if that is the case and not being helped instead of being evicted from the LC like a bag of refuse to the curb?
Your cousin needs help as he drove into the tree, not the tree into him. "They" say he had dementia. Who the hell is the LC to diagnose dementia? Why if they knew he had dementia and was in that condition wasn't he driven home instead of given keys to a car? How do you know that your cousin is not hypoglycemic and had a quick drop or spike in blood sugar. I have seen several occasions of the police pulling over erratic drivers in my area where what was first considered to be a DWI turned out to be diabetic shock when they called for a rescue team to do a glucose reading and check on the driver who was disoriented. Was there a police report or emergency responder sent to the crash site with records on him? Whose car was it? Was there insurance. Larouchemobiles are notorious for lack of care as spending money on Lyn's delusions for leafletts instead of tires and a brake job is the priority.
We have had members killed and injured in crashes where combinations of lack of sleep and unsafe conditions are whispered about by members.
You see, the LC/LYM becomes a public health hazard the more questions you ask.
We will be looking at Tom Ascher and his world next in LaroucheNoCare.
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

05-04-2008, 07:14 AM

xlcr4life

LaroucheNoCare Health Plan
What was the world in which Tom Ascher (TA) found himself in prior to his problems? TA had pretty well of parents and he himself was considered to be a very bright young man. We did not recruit dummies back then , we usually got people who completed their degree first. TA rose in the ranks and was a National Committee member or NC. No one who ever met him early ever considered him to be dumb or not a serious thinker.
The world he was in was the opposite though. In 1973 we were busy with Operation Mop Up and having our members take numerous blows to the head for Lyn while he was busy in his apt with a pot of coffee, orea cookies and a typewriter with a ream of paper. as well as bodyguards. In 1974 we had what old time members will recall as "January 1974". This was the time of the phony Chris White brainwashing story , members being convinced that they too were brainwashed. Lyn was conducting sessions with other leaders. Bill E had a breakdown and was admitted to Belvue I believe while struggling on the floor about being brainwashed. We had leaders and various members kept in seperate safe houses with their assignment to write down their every move and where they could have been brainwashed. No Sh*t, I just heard about this not too long ago where all of the written letters were then sent to Lyn for analysis. A person who is no longer in took a peek at some of them and didn't know whether to burst out laughing or cry as leaders were giving examples like going to their dentist who they always suspected of being an agent who may have implanted a device in their tooth!
We could not have the leaders near Lyn because the whole insane LC did not know who may be triggered to kill Lyn by some inocuous series of words being spoken which would trigger a hit by our own people!
There is so much to this which needs to be told by people who went through this. I was not in a position to know of this . My position of knowledge was in distributing what we called "Little Campaigners" which were half folded , about 5.5 " by 4 " pamphlets for emergency distribution. We also had RYM (Revolutionary Youth Movement) where someone like TA would have been involved in. That is a whole other episode of insanity.
Among our campaigns which Tom was leading was one called "Operation Nuremburg" which today I find reminds me of how Scientology views psychiatry with distaste. In Operation Nuremeburg we built up whole megastructure of massive CIA, KGB and MI5 plots, all being run by the Rockefellers to enslave mankind , bankrupt cities, fill the world with drugs with the whole reason based on shutting down plants, laying off the woikers and replacing them with methadone fueled lumpenized slave labor . We targetted many psychiatrists and drug treatment facilities with being part of this. Where were the British you ask? The Brits were the brains which thought up a lot of this and Tavistock was the central brain while the Rockefellers were now the rulers of the world unless TA stopped them.
One place TA was to stop them was in the Bronx at a drug addict facilty which was using methadone to get people off of heroin at the time, Lincoln Detox. A place where a LC MD was working and according to the web copy paste I did a little bit back, was feeding info to the authorities.
At a place like Lincoln Detox we would have rallies where we would appear with a bullhorn a, several organisers, a leader who would be on the bullhorn and a few bundles of New Solidarity newspapers. We did not have card table shrines back then and our lit was what ever you held in your hand next to your coat while the other hand made gestures to the person we were hounding. You quickly learned back then to never buy a light colored coat as it would be soon filled with ink smears.
We started the card table shrines at airports and I swear that is the LC version of the caveman inventing the wheel as we quickly bought up cheap folding tables at Kmart to use at post offices and DMV offices. Unless you were boycotting Kmart and had to go to WoolWorths or WT Grant, unless they were shut down by the Rockefellers and you had to go to.....well, you get the picture.
In any event, TA would be our squad leader who was going to save humanity at Lincoln Detox that day. If you ever wondered what exactly these doped up junkies were going to do, you had two choices to tell someone based on NS articles at the time. One choice was the Chevy Vega plant in Lordstown Ohio where you had "speed up" which somehow only a methadone fueled Puerto Rican in the Bronx would be able to keep up with once the Rockefellers won. The other choice was Colorado where shale oil plants would be set up by the Rockefellers and trainloads of methadone fueled Puerto Ricans would leave Grand Central terminal to their jobs in coal gasification plants that the Rockefellers through IG Farben in Nazi Germany were the sole holders of the rights. I wonder iback then ,if someone would propose a Maglev line from NYC to Colorado iwould we denounce it as a Rockefeller plot to speed up the mass shippment of methadone fueled Puerto Ricans to replace the previous shipment of methadone fueled Puerto Ricans who died for Rockefeller instead of taking power with Larouche.
So in this incredible world of endless plots against Lyn, civilization ending, disease, everyone and everything is run by the Rockefellers, every member is suspect of being an agent and heroin junkies need Larouche more than needing rehab is what TA was living in. 24/7, every month the briefing would have endess mobes and a never ending battle where if you slow down just one second, Lyn can be dead and humanity is finished.
During one of our rallies at Lincoln Detox, a patient I believe came up to TA and shot him in the shoulder. I was not there and if anyone knows more details they can add them in. TA now was going to undergo a severe change in his life. Other people will know more of the details of the immediate and following months then I do. I was busy plastering posters we had of a Nazi Skeleton with syringes announcing Operation Nuremeburg on various billboards. TA was never the same after this and had many changes which made people uncomfortable.
What do you do when a leading member like TA has problems? You shuffle them off to Buffalo and upstate NY and pretend that this is a solution to a severe problem which is making him suffer every day now. As TA suffers and undergoes more changes, he is demoted and sent back to NYC where he ends up in a very small office. What happened in between leaving NYC, going to upstate NY and then returning is somtehing I am not privy to. As far as being treated, I have yet to hear anything which resembles a treatment plan or rehab which one would consider the expected level. TA was expected to run a region when he was suffering from ailments which were inferior to what the level of mobes we were conducting at the time.
Your problems aint nothing compared to Lyn yutes.
Was there any point between the shooting and this circular route where better care could have been administered? The people who were very close to him or were involved could figure this out after they left the LC nightmare.
TA was seen by a person who knew him from another region where he visited to teach classes once. This person was shocked to see that TA was now assigned to a small , sweaty and unairconditioned office which was part of the local office near the W29th st office. This was 30 years ago so we will have some hazy moments. This office had a mimeograph machine and a simple machine which wrapped reams of leafletts into bundleds with twine. In it were about 5 other members. TA did not recognise the person who saw him which was odd. Not knowing the full story since he/she was in another region and did not see him for a year or two , this was a shocker. TA was described as moving very slowly and barely able to talk . The other LC members in the work are were very similar. The person asked the LC member who was incharge about this and was nonchalantly told that the members here all "freaked out" and were here cause there was no where else to put them.
When I was in this was not known by the general membership. What was known about our printing operations was that they were very decentralized where locals would use local printers for leaflets or they would buy a gestetner for local leaflet runs. That ended when we were sued in a few cities for slander by locals who just had to show the judge or jury a typical leaflet written by a goofy steering committee leader and soon we were paying thousands in legal bills and damages. It was excitedly reported that we were puttin together a fund to purchase a webb press and create a new company to keep all of our printing under cost and under control while outside work would pay for this. That was how PMR was presented to members outside of NYC.
Soon, the small office with the wallpaper peeling off of the walls due to the summer NYC humid heat would be gone along with TA , the other "freaked out' members and several bottles of Yoo Hoo.
"Freaked Out" That used to be a key part of LC vocabulary, except it was for our enemies who "freaked out" at our intervention and not us.
That person left that particular office wondering if they really just saw what they saw. TA was now nothing like he was years ago, before the shooting. The story of TA jumps a few years because in the LC, you can just make something disappear by not talking it about it ever again. It works on anythting where you do not need questions asked about a problem. If you can keep the mobes going around the clock and then change the mobes so you never know when one ends and another begins, you will be very disoriented and forget people and events real easy.
TA was forgotten and most members never knew he existed, or what happened to him or where he ended up. Ex members report that he ended up in shelters, half way houses, being picked up as homeless, in and out of mental treatment facilites. Were his parents every asked to help their son the day he was shot? I do not know.
What I do know is that over the years ex members in NYC would find Tom scavenging in the steets where he did not know they knew him. On some occasions ex members would be in various parks in NYC and TA would recognise them and come up to them. It was always an agonising moment as that person knew him decades earlier and now had to see him living in the street and seeing first hand his decline.
Eventually, TA was in Leesburg where his brother was and would be seen in the area. In Baltimore he was reported by a departing LYM to have been a regular at the office where he would howl or cry on the street until Larry F or usually TA's brother would come down to slip him some food or some money. For a while the departing LYM noted that it was not known by LYM in the office that TA was the brother of an LC fundrasier.
There are other things which TA would do in Leesburg and that is best said by people who had first hand knowledge. The net result is that a former academic scholar in the early 1970s would have had a completely different life if he never joined this cult.
You only have one life and the best of intentions one wishes to do with that life should be spared for something deserving of that. The more you look at what is happening to members via their health the more you see how utterly sick this all is.
I was going to say earlier that the era TA joined was particularly insane. I can not say that now as in looking up something for this post, I was reminded that the LYM have their own insanity level of membership, just like TA.
Just read some if these highlites from Nancy Spannaus and see how the DNA is implanted for ever and ever.
http://www.larouchepub.com/other/2006/3350bens_youth_mvmt.html
"In July 1984, Lyndon LaRouche laid out the mission of his political movement, as following "In the Footsteps of Benjamin Franklin." Twenty-two years later, to the chagrin of his British Tory enemies, he has advanced far along that path, with the creation of a LaRouche Youth Movement which holds the best hope for saving our republic."
"It is such youth who, realizing that the current course of events will give them no future, historically have been able to remoralize, and motivate, their elders, to make revolutions for human progress.
Even more provocative, should be the idea of the 80-year-old Benjamin Franklin, surrounded by these revolutionary youth, during the Revolutionary War and through the Constitutional Convention. They were fulfilling his life's work, just as LaRouche's Youth Movement today promises to fulfill LaRouche's."

"Why a Youth Movement?
Why did Benjamin Franklin, and his younger collaborators, recruit a youth movement in order to win the American republic? Did he have to do so?
The answer is yes, he did have to,—for reasons very similar to those which require Lyndon LaRouche to do the same today. The older generation which had protested (a hint of today's '68ers?) was not prepared to dedicate themselves to building a new republic, which meant mastering the ideas necessary to do so."
"There is no question but that LaRouche's Youth Movement has more intellectual depth than that of the original American Revolution. Standing on their shoulders, and those of later great American leaders, like Lincoln and FDR, who followed them, LaRouche has made more fundamental breakthroughs in science and statecraft than even Franklin, and worked to educate his youth movement with a rigor Franklin did not employ."

This is straight jacket logic yutes. The reason you are so special is because you have not reached that health breaking point of expense , yet. Keep inhaling those carcinogens and check back later, Watch your nose, neck, forearm, cheeks and forehead for skin cancer also being outside all day. Back then, most LC members were heavy smokers which is another way of self medicating yourself over the endless anxiety while a bottle handles depression . Today I hear you can have your needs delivered to you in person by you know who.
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

05-04-2008, 08:12 AM

shadok tarpley/swastika

Quote:
Originally Posted by xlcr4life
Webster Tarpley took over that franchise as he had a radio program which I think was sponsered by American Free Press which is the reincarnation of the Liberty Lobby. Tarpely also has done conferences with very shady people in Europe who have the reputation of the type of people you describe.

I found this footage on youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoK1ceCYy8g
where webster T is interviewed by antizionist Harold Channer. If you look past the 4"40s+ you ll see on the wall (behind the sofa where Webster was interviewed) ... a swastika! I don't think it s the Nazi one, because this one is counterclockwise (the Nazi's is clockwise). How many would spot the subtle difference? On the same wall there is a David star.
Bunch of weirdos.

05-04-2008, 01:20 PM

yamabkad

Someone posted a link to the new dunamis earlier. Flipping through it I saw no topic in it that isn't already covered in tomes and tomes of already available "regular" literature. In fact, having gone through many a LYM math class, I am sure that there is nothing in this dunamis that isn't better explained in even the stiffest textbook.
Considering I read very little of it, I can only really comment on the images, which looked like an attempt to impress (as in "look, we are so thoughtful, that must mean we aren't wasting our lives", or "Vernadsky, Riemann, Gauss are all our pals, shouldn't you be too?" "if we post more of those cluttered pretty pictures of trig functions we might just be doing something"). The only thing that might be semi-productive were the translations, but there is a very tiny audience for that sort of thing, a portion of it currently locked in the attic or wherever they put them these days.
The LYM sacrifice clarity for the sake of reassuring constructions. The reassuring has nothing to do with scientific rigor, but far more to do with convincing oneself that all the sacrifices are done for some reason. Writing something in dunamis also I imagine translates into a limited license to practice ego trips vs comrades=enemies. All this of course forgets to mention the cherished supporting mysticism (aka unstated axioms of Lyn) which has to be tolerated if not touted.
I'm tempted to walk the cult's lit maze as some of you do, as a guide of sorts with this particular publication, tempted because it would be a good thing to do, but honestly I'd rather sit down and solve a book of math problems than have to deal with this bull****. In fact, I'm about to do just that after posting this.

05-04-2008, 02:32 PM

eaglebeak

The Founding of PMR Picking up where XLCR left off in his references to PMR, in his telling of the Tom Ascher story.
What Tom was "deployed" to do in the old 29th Street office was to work the mimeograph machine, etc.--before there was ever a PMR. Probably he was working the machine in the New York Regional Office--the National Office and Regional Office were both in the 29th Street building.
In those days our printer was an outfit in New Jersey, Vanguard Press. The owner was a sympathetic guy named Doug.
But of course, we ran into huge problems paying Doug, too. So some time in around 1977, PMR was founded--the founders were three people, one still in the org ("P"), whose name I will not use because this guy has had a tough enough time, and two who have since left (years ago): "M"--Martin K and "R"--Rudy N.
"P" never actually worked at PMR, but put his money into it.
(By the way, the founding of PMR had nothing to do with Ken Kronberg, who was in Detroit at the time.)
Once PMR was established, sort of, it got its own office in the 20s on the West Side in Manhattan--not far from the New York Regional Office.
By the way, when the org founded PMR, it stiffed Doug and Vanguard Press for at least 100K on back bills--a huge amount of money in those days.
PMR was not a dumping ground for burnt-out members (although its precursor in-house teeny printing operations may have been), but it was a place for more "apolitical" members. Over the years, a large number of people who have passed into history worked there--Norma S, Fred W, Sam S, etc., etc. At one point it was run by a guy called Ron K. Later it was run by Uwe Henke/Parpart's wife Julie.
Only some time after the founding of WorldComp did Ken Kronberg get involved in running PMR.
Ken and Molly Kronberg came back to NYC from Detroit in the fall of 1977--Molly was thrown out of the region by the chief honcho there, a character named Ken Dalto, and Ken following later that fall (thereby "deserting his post," as the NEC put it).
Molly seems to have frequently run afoul of the leadership of the org, but interestingly, over the decades, Ken stayed with her despite the fact that she was obviously--as Molly herself told me--what his mother (an old Communist Party member) used to laughingly call "a recalcitrant cadre."
Anyhow, the Kronbergs came back to New York in the fall of 1977. At that time, all the typesetting for the publications--books, magazines, newspapers, etc.--was being done in-house by members on shifts, in the 29th Street office.
But in 1978, Ken and Mike M founded WorldComp as a typestting company with offices on Park Avenue South, the other side of town from the National and Regional Offices.
Gradually, over the years, Ken became responsible for PMR too, and long after the whole org moved to Virginia in 1985, the two companies were actually amalgamated in some way.
The people who worked at PMR and WorldComp were bright, energetic, and highly skilled (unlike the LaRouche org, Ken and Mike and the PMR people didn't go for a business model where all the workers were burnt-out zombies, which could be very dangerous around big presses and other powerful, fast, and potentially lethal equipment).
But there was always, inside the org, a stigma attached to working at PMR or WorldComp--it meant you weren't "political" enough....
Also, from a pretty early period, and certainly from 1985 forward, Ken's policy was to hire outside employees---so ultimately, very few LCers worked at the companies. At PMR itself, not counting Ken, who by that time was president and owner, there were only two Labor Committee members working there--MS and DM.
One of them dropped out of the Labor Committee a number of years ago. He told Ken, but Ken never told the org; he didn't want to get an earful about replacing the guy.
At the time of the closing of PMR, then, there was one Labor Committee member working there, plus Ken.
At WorldComp, there were about nine Labor Committee members, including Ken.
From my multiple sources there, I find that Ken did everything in his power to run these things like companies, not like Labor Cttee pseudopods.
That meant, for example, that in starkest contrast to LaRoucheCare, the employees--Labor Committee and outside employees both--had excellent medical insurance (Alliance PPO), dental insurance, etc.
That alone would have been a crime worth throwing Ken off a bridge for, in LaRouche's eyes. The matter of health insurance has always been a vexed one for Lyn because, like the Schachtian model he's always raving about, Lyn hates the idea of paying to sustain a bunch of relatively unproductive "useless eater" oldsters.
So to have WorldComp and PMR people with decent health care was like a thumb in the eye to Lyn.
And yet Ken did everything he could think of to keep the companies running for Lyn for years after the organization was objectively bankrupt, and therefore was bankrupting the companies too.
Not only didn't he pay the withholding taxes in the last couple of years, thereby creating tremendous legal and financial jeopardy for himself, but he also signed personal guarantees on all equipment purchased and leased--also putting himself in financial and legal jeopardy for LaRouche.
LaRouche's response, of course, was to turn around and stiff him, putting him in more jeopardy.
When Lyn discovered in 2006 that Ken had not been paying withholding taxes (a fact long known to the NEC, to that "special committee" Lyn had set up in fall 2004--the committee of Jeff, Nancy, Dennis, and Gerry--the one Lyn mentions in his November 2004 mail message to Ken that I posted earlier), he--Lyn--freaked.
He decided that HE was going to jail. That's when he sent in the BB twins, Bruce and Barbara, to take over the running of PMR, to beat Ken to a pulp, etc. Because of LaRouche's inordinate, inveterate terror of prison.
Of course, the LaRouche connection to WorldComp/PMR is the reason that after WorldComp/PMR closed, the IRS went after various LaRouche entities for the money, including L04--LaRouche in 2004--which had to cough up a chunk of change to the IRS in summer/fall 2007.
I don't know whether the IRS has gotten to EIR yet, or PGM, or Schiller Institute, or 21st Century, or....
ANYhow, that's the printing story. Obviously, the death of Ken, and of the companies, meant the death of printing for the org.
And now,--just as the Washington Monthly editor in chief predicted when WM published Avi Klein's article "Publish and Perish: The Mysterious Death of Lyndon LaRouche's Printer"--it looks to me as if the death of Ken Kronberg did indeed mean the death of the org.
http://washingtonmonthly.com/WaMoNews/07.11/LaRouche.html
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2007/0711.klein.html
And there couldn't be a fairer outcome than that.

05-04-2008, 02:36 PM

eaglebeak

Odds and Ends Apropos of the story of Tom A and Lincoln Detox--Lincoln Detox was a drug clinic at Lincoln Hospital in The Bronx, in a very rough neighborhood.
The reason we decided to do rallies at Lincoln Detox was that Dr. Ned Rosinsky, of increasing fame in these pages, was working at Lincoln at the time and thought it would be a good idea....
Certainly worked out well for Tom....
But, as XLCR has indicated, Tom was by no means the only one driven crazy by the LaRouche org.

To Come
The story of January 1974. Not to be missed.

05-04-2008, 04:12 PM

xlcr4life

LaroucheNoCare Health Plan

Quote:
Originally Posted by eaglebeak
But, as XLCR has indicated, Tom was by no means the only one driven crazy by the LaRouche org.

We need to create an award for the more disgusting acts conducted by members in the LC/LYM . Maybe be it could be a statue of Lyn like an Oscar and we can call it a
"Sicky"

I wish to propose that Tom's brother John be awarded the first "Sicky" for spending three decades of devotion , worship and raising money ensuring that Lyndon Larouche enjoyed the best of health care, around the clock care and shelter, gourmet meals and mutliple doctors in two continents while his blood brother wasted away during those three decades.
Congratulations John , you will soon find your award on larouchePlanet.info where you will have an opportunity to thank the Academy and your peers.
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

05-04-2008, 05:59 PM

scrimscraw

Our ADD and theirs...

Quote:
Xlcr4life wrote:
...in the LC, you can just make something disappear by not talking it about it ever again. It works on anything where you do not need questions asked about a problem. If you can keep the mobes going around the clock and then change the mobes so you never know when one ends and another begins, you will be very disoriented and forget people and events real easy.

It strikes me that this is also, more or less, the present method used by Bush/Cheney in running the country, assisted by the mainstream media and talk radio. Ever since 9/11 we've had the fear-level ratcheted up, florid rhetoric about "threats" to the "Homeland" and a Britney-saturated news environment where real news and issues of significance are lost in the shuffle. Hey! Maybe a skill in this method is what truly qualifies Lyn to be presidential fodder!

05-04-2008, 06:52 PM

candor Have Fun! Here is an idea for a game which might be developed in the "Have Fun!" section of laroucheplanet.info:
using Visio (or some other type of software) develop flowcharts of LaRouche's "ideas" or conspiracy theories. While the exploding basementites and atticists might scorn this suggestion because of their principled if ignorant opposition to "linearity". they should note that none other than His Hubrisness developed one for the so-called machine-tool principle:
http://www.schillerinstitute.org/fid_97-01/973_spaceless_timeless.html#fig3
A five-dollar McDonald's gift card to any starveling LYMer or LYMette who can puzzle that one out. I suggest started with the prefatory note to the latest issue of Dynamis, which really puts silliness on a new, qualitatively higher and more "relevant, competent" level.
Let the games begin!

05-04-2008, 10:28 PM

xlcr4life

Quote:
Originally Posted by candor
Here is an idea for a game which might be developed in the "Have Fun!" section of laroucheplanet.info:
using Visio (or some other type of software) develop flowcharts of LaRouche's "ideas" or conspiracy theories. While the exploding basementites and atticists might scorn this suggestion because of their principled if ignorant opposition to "linearity". they should note that none other than His Hubrisness developed one for the so-called machine-tool principle:
http://www.schillerinstitute.org/fid_97-01/973_spaceless_timeless.html#fig3
A five-dollar McDonald's gift card to any starveling LYMer or LYMette who can puzzle that one out. I suggest started with the prefatory note to the latest issue of Dynamis, which really puts silliness on a new, qualitatively higher and more "relevant, competent" level.
Let the games begin!


This a damn good idea. I often forget that you can just about go to any bit of LC/LYM writing and find great lines for fun. This is from that business plan by Lyn:
"The principle is: do not think of this as a matter of buying products; it is a matter of buying change. When you buy a product, are you also buying into the quality of change you will need for tomorrow? Are you buying into yesterday, or tomorrow? Production, and successful national economy, are both all about technological change. Therefore, the board of directors member, or operating executive, who does not understand that, should be fired with the same sense of urgency prompted by the detection of a chronic embezzler, pyromaniac, or axe-murderer in those positions.
What is amazing for future historians to study is that Lyn has created such a bizarro world for members that they were the ones who totaly experienced a complete collapse of infrastructure, education, housing, savings, health coverage, retirement funds, transportation, massive and unpayable debt for the last thirty years all while having a chronic embezller who burnt down all of the entities so to speak at the helm. We leave the figurative axe-murderer position to Tony Papert.
You all remember "Negentropy" as the magic word? I suggest to current deadenders and LYM/LYMettes that you all will experience "Lynear" growth during your tenure in the cult.

In further news today, LYM and LYMettes have successfully organised a key constituent of Larouche methodology to advance the struggle to save humanity from The Jew World Order . Welcome your new playmates. It only took Lyn 40 odd years and 250 million dollars and spending a 100K to a 150K you raise each week to get these victories to save humanity.
http://top-secret-at.blogspot.com/20...p-iraq-to.html
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

05-05-2008, 12:01 AM

scrimscraw Go with the flow(chart)

Quote:
Originally Posted by candor
using Visio (or some other type of software) develop flowcharts of LaRouche's "ideas" or conspiracy theories.

I've got something along these lines (heh) that I could upload here as a posting attachment, if only the FACTnet folks would raise the ceiling on allowed GIF file sizes to the same size as their JPG file limit. :(

05-05-2008, 02:51 AM

localgreek

family ties? The quotation below by xlcr4life touches on something that I have observed in our relation who is in the cult but I do not know how widespread this is. What is the relationship between cult members and their families? In our case the cult member disappeared for years. This was in the 70s, in the initial period after recruitment.
Needless to say this brought great pain and many tears to the parents. Also, one of the parents became very seriously sick as a result of not knowing where the offspring was, and then trying to cope with the reality of knowing that the person was now cut off from the family and tied to Larouche in an umbilical way.
When the cult member started to have more contact, I noticed that this individual was not really warm with the parents, or sympathetic to their ailments, or hardships. It was as though this person had truly severed from the family. It was as though the comportment was in some way artificial. The item below certainly corroborates this. Of course, I am speaking of a cult member who has been in the cult for well over 30 years.
I understand that Larouche hates the mother figure, and hates families. How prevalent is the kind of behaviour described below and that witnessed by us, which though not as extreme is still disgusting.
Now that parents are older, what are the boomers doing to help them when they are so sick themselves because of their enslavement?
Folks, if you can report abuse in a neighbor's marriage, why can't the abuse in a cult be reported and taken seriously.
===================================

Quote:
Originally Posted by xlcr4life
We need to create an award for the more disgusting acts conducted by members in the LC/LYM . Maybe be it could be a statue of Lyn like an Oscar and we can call it a
"Sicky"
I wish to propose that Tom's brother John be awarded the first "Sicky" for spending three decades of devotion , worship and raising money ensuring that Lyndon Larouche enjoyed the best of health care, around the clock care and shelter, gourmet meals and mutliple doctors in two continents while his blood brother wasted away during those three decades.
Congratulations John , you will soon find your award on larouchePlanet.info where you will have an opportunity to thank the Academy and your peers.
xlcr4life@hotmail.com
05-05-2008, 09:03 AM

charltonrom

re supporting mysticism Yamakbad writes:
all this of course forgets to mention the cherished supporting mysticism (aka unstated axioms of Lyn) which has to be tolerated if not touted.
*
Not tolerated; that doesn't cut it. Touted, yes indeed please, but inculcated first. As previously noted, there are 40 years now of Lyn's mad and vile and brutal acts to ponder and discuss, and we can all note the constant shifting modulation in theme, choice of villains and heroes, &c. Others here are doing a fabulous job of recovering lots of the howlers and horrors from the past. As part of my Smelling the Dogmess series I plan to note here and there in desultory fashion certain of the dogma planks which constitute parts of the body of belief internalized these days by new adepts.
It's very instructive for example to look at Lyn's history re FDR. Our world, of course, is doomed, without Lyn. Only Lyn's FDR-modeled initiatives can save civilization. Those who were around earlier than I can perhaps fill in the procession towards idealizing FDR, but 'tweren't always thisaway. In the intro to I think Political Economy of the American Revolution (I don't have the book at hand, the first book I think where the shift is displayed towards some form of formal-patriot thematic and away from the hard Marxian glory of the early years) we see Nancy (Lyn) decrying FDR's "zero-growth corporatism." What was true in '77 ain't no longer so; today, FDR is somewhere above Christ in value, at least in the current rhetoric. Never mind FDR's failures vis a vis the Holocaust, his approval of domestic spying during the war, nor the debatable legacies of some of the New Deal era initiatives--- the astronomical increase in the federal budgets for example. FDR is now no longer much of a historical figure at all; he is an ideological icon. In effect Lyn tries to plump up FDR's image and cash in politically on the result. And to top it all off: any RESISTANCE to Lyn amounts to a continuation of the old British policy of stopping FDR and any FDR-type figure, from returning, ever again, to lead the US. In fact the Brits, through their control of the Frankfurt School critics, ahem, created an entire genre of anti-FDR literature: the "authoritarian personality" analyses of Hannah Arendt et al. Any attempt to question personalities of leadership bent, ahem, as it were, is part of a Brit mind control game don't you know.
Yep, you got it right: any resistance to Lyn basically amounts to a Brit-authored effort to stop today's FDR/the Messiah from returning.
First Plate o' Dogmess: Lyn is today's FDR; rebuke him at your dupe-d peril.
charltonrom@gmail.com

05-05-2008, 09:58 AM

charltonrom

Plate o' Dogmess 2 Of a piece with how the Brits ran the Frankfurt School in order to induce Hannah Arendt to compose some volumes on the Authoritarian Personality in order to induce a state of apathy and anti-FDR/anti-Lyn animus in the US population, note the quotes from Helga noted above: Hillary is being targeted because her policies are too close to Lyn's.
One might think it would just be easier for the oligarchy, which ran 9-11 ( a subject for another Plate) just to off Lyn and end their troubles. Instead, they waste their time and misdirect their energies targeting Lyn's mere students and epigones, like Bill and Hillary.
I started coming around in a serious way during the Impeach Clinton era. In those days, I was told, "Clinton reads EIR." I guess for all Lyn's extollations of Bill's high intelligence, he wasn't smart enough to finish his EIR, make the connectos and rub out the relevant agents or bomb London instead of those other places he bombed.
Lyn tried hard to suck up to Bill, and now to Hillary, hoping against hope to get some play. Now Hillary is targeted because her policies are too close to Lyn's. Then, Bill was attacked because HIS policies were too close to Lyn's. Ultimately of course Lyn was attacked because his policies were quite similar to Lyn's.
Plate o' Dogmess 2: Political attacks on Lyn's toadying-targets come from the Oligarchy. Those who embrace LaRouche's policies may come under attack.
charltonrom@gmail.com

05-05-2008, 05:37 PM

yamabkad

Quote:
Originally Posted by charltonrom
...(aka unstated axioms of Lyn) which has to be tolerated if not touted.
*
Not tolerated; that doesn't cut it. Touted, yes indeed please, but inculcated first...

Mhhmm, no disagreement here. I was being somewhat vague in speaking about the unstated axioms of lyn. The man's sadism and narcissism penetrate all aspects of organizational life spreading entropy in their wake. However, the "axioms" I was thinking of would reflect how this influence trickles down to the "math work" that is the basis of the Dynamis "publication."
Like all other aspects of (b)org life the focus of the math work is "organizing," aka the creation of mini-Lyn's (minus the dementia due to the still functioning brain). Due to the fact that it is mathwork one would imagine the mini-Lyns with a math bent enjoying a limited ego boost within this arena. Part of that would involve being given some freedom of interpretation as to what the hell Lyn (and once upon a time) Bruce is babbling about.
These are really the _unstated axioms with regards to Dunamis_. Since being a math LYM member (or Bruce for that matter) essentially boils down to faking it until you realize you can't make it, what BS you come up with to CLA(Cover Lyn's Ass) as to his crucial mathematical genius ego investment through your "mathwork" now becomes the _stated_ axioms of Lyn. (hence why in the beginning period when no one is sure what these axioms are, since they have been only vaguely stated, they must be tolerated, but once something has been "worked out", consensus science and all, they must be touted with absolute humbleness as to their total ignorance of the great discovery which they cannot describe)
Hence the interesting way LYM members have to tiptoe around the fact that earlier publications glorify Euler, while the new ones have him as a prime villain with a not-quite saving grace of formalism. Aka, Euler, Euclid etc can be used to actually learn the math, but then must be made out to be purgatory(tolerated) or hell-bound knowledge(punished) and the arbitrary philosophical implications must be drawn out so as to make Lyn's latest axioms palpable, the old axioms of course being victims of the POLITICAL LANGUAGE OF THE TIME (read: boomer influence) and not Lyn's lack of a principled stand on anything.
So while yesterday x^2+y^2=r^2 meant nothing because ooga booga ~rotation~ is the primary action in the universe, polar coordinate systems be semi-damned, tomorrow that will mean nothing because you haven't done enough intersections of a cone with a torus.
Once the new axioms are stated of course, in a publication (say Dunamis) or elsewhere, Lyn, being the genius that he is is free to state that they are axioms, therefore complete bull****, and the years you put in faking his genius are now considered a waste even by the man who you so lovingly and kindly faked it for in the hopes that you would be worthy enough to be able to snuggle up to his Hubrisness and get the secret of negentropy (so inexpressible in mathematics that Bruce once suggested with a mystical glint in his eye that a new type of calculus had to be created, and this was one of the LYM's missions) shared with you, just like Prometheus waited patiently for the gods to give him fire (it didn't go like that? Oh well, but our economy is collapsing, so even Prometheans will have realize how blocked they are, not that it's Lyn's fault or anything.)

05-05-2008, 06:37 PM

borisbad

Now that Hillary is talking about bombing Iran to defend Israel, how long till LaRouche changes his tune on Hillary in the race for the Dem Party nomination?

05-05-2008, 06:40 PM

howie

From where I am sitting and what I see, the matter of Webster Tarpley goes beyond the "You can take a man out of a cult, but you can't (sometimes) take a cult out of a man", which if it was simply that I'd expect maybe the same rhetorical end of worlds flourishes and various other concepts to be incorporated into Tarpley. But some similarities between Tarpley and Larouche are just too contrived to make me not think there is something a bit more here, what that I don't know.
I stated that a question I had about Webster Tarpley, suggesting that there is clearly some kind of real connection between Tarpley and Larouche's organization, was not rhetorical. I did not know that he made a big snap-back with Hillary Clinton from "War Mongerer" to support, replete with support of the Russian government and Brzenski (sp?) hatred, but that makes it even more puzzling to me. Is he getting money off the same sources as Larouche here? Is he somehow tapping the same sources of "intelligence" as Larouche et al, however defined? Basically, the mileu of the "9/11 Truth" Conspiracy Theory world does not lend itself to making apologies for any politician, short of maybe a Ron Paul (which is roughly where any "9/11 Truther" I will encounter ends up electoral politics-wise), and certainly not Hillary Clinton.

05-05-2008, 06:42 PM

howie

<i>Now that Hillary is talking about bombing Iran to defend Israel, how long till LaRouche changes his tune on Hillary in the race for the Dem Party nomination?</i>
I'd (or someone else) would have to go through the L-PAC releases, but Larouche offered an apologia toward Clinton along the lines of "The British-controlled media are mis-representing what she said, and she didn't say what you think she said."

05-05-2008, 06:53 PM

xlcr4life

Quote:
Originally Posted by charltonrom
FDR is now no longer much of a historical figure at all; he is an ideological icon. In effect Lyn tries to plump up FDR's image and cash in politically on the result.

Anyone who joined in this century (that sure seems strange to type) will not have any clues of LC history while being in the cult. You have nailed it because for the longest time we campaigned against The whole Roosevelt family and made them into a British Patrician type family for years. Corporativism was the key word which we used for many years to describe a new set of enemies who were in between our Communist days and our clean cut days.
Here is something to ponder. Lyn sets the rudder and the cult sails to the new destination. Since you burn so many people out, you need to find new areas to harvest for worship er support and money. In the NUWRO days (National Unemployes Welfare Rights Org) we wanted to take that over from the left. When that failed Lyn had the Black members lead the LC into the ghettos to form RYM (Revolutionary Youth Movement) . Recruiting gang members was an idea where we would fill them up with Beethoven and Marx and send them off to beat our enemies.
Lym and LYMettes, you really have no idea of how everything you are doing is just another rerun in Lyn's packed schedule of delusionary shows running daily in his mind.
Lyn a few years ago said that if he had 10,000 LYM he could take over the US. 35 years ago the phrase was if he had 10,000 RYM he could take over the US.
The net result of the RYM organising was a disaster of members being robbed, assaulted and worse with females being raped!
This was all dropped as we found much more sympathy and brotherhood with far right extremists, KKK members, Nazi Warlocks , Jew haters and whole cast of characters which very few people knew about. Blacks were not at the top of the list for us because you did not get the vast sums of money you want going door to door in a ghetto.
What you could get is support and bodies for conferences along with making Lyn a saviour for African Americans .
The change in FDR began when we recruited a former NYC Black elected official named Hulan Jack. Jack was a vcery well admired Democrat who by the time we met him was no longer front page news and basically retired. He spoke at conferences, helped us get into places with his name, we published his autobiography and created a new front group I think called something like "A new Commison on African Policy". HUuan Jack was a wondeful man who every member enjoyed seeing because it was so different that the lunacy you are used to hearing every day.
It was very, very important that he was kept in a certain distance where he was allowed to do his thing and not be put through the ringer. He recieved a stipend no matter what the finances were and we had some of our medical MDs assist him with his health issues.
We will go through this on anther day, but the cult will tell you that they take care of their people and will use examples like Marianna Wertz, Allen S and others to show how good they are.
Check the fine print folks. your health care in the LC is based on how much wealth you bring to the table. There is no way you would screw Wertz if she is the main person hustling Amelia Robinson who you need to open other doors with.
With Hulan Jack a serious issue came up after our rants against Roosevelt. There is no way on Earth you are going to attract blacks if you are denouncing FDR when the generation of the African Americans you are calling became Democrats because of FDR like Hulan did. Many of our older supporters would not give money or run as candidates if we were anti FDR. What we were doing in the 1980s was very clever by Lyn in that we were raising money to support and protect Reagan in boiling conservative lists. For the Democrats we created something called "The National Democratic Policy Committee", or NDPC. FOr the GOP we ran NDPC candidates to F with Dem candidates in elections.
With Hulan as the calling card for the NDPC we had an ace in the hole to call older supporters about FDR and how Lyn was their generation and try to bring tears to elderly contacts while getting their promisorry notes ready.
In a flash, FDR was now the most celebrated Saint in the Larouche Gospel and he was going to be the saviour of Roosevelt. Before LarouchePac the cult set up FDRPAC until I once read that there was a problem with the FDR family I believe.
Later, we will be reading some brand new comedy by the LYM and Lyn masquerading as a LYM address by Lyn in Leesburg. Seriously, you can't find stuff this funny on TV because a writer and TV exec would not believe that all of this is really going in LaroucheTown with real people. The LaroucheTown meeting is true "Spring Time for Larouche" crazy.
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

05-05-2008, 08:27 PM

boomer70

true genius Hube's modus has always been to infiltrate segments of the population which are in some kind of ferment, and currently that segment is the folks supporting Obama. But Hube is too identified with the right to effectively get at them, so the genius pees on them.

05-05-2008, 10:19 PM

Hank

Quote:
Originally Posted by localgreek
The quotation below by xlcr4life touches on something that I have observed in our relation who is in the cult but I do not know how widespread this is. What is the relationship between cult members and their families? In our case the cult member disappeared for years. This was in the 70s, in the initial period after recruitment.
Needless to say this brought great pain and many tears to the parents. Also, one of the parents became very seriously sick as a result of not knowing where the offspring was, and then trying to cope with the reality of knowing that the person was now cut off from the family and tied to Larouche in an umbilical way.
When the cult member started to have more contact, I noticed that this individual was not really warm with the parents, or sympathetic to their ailments, or hardships. It was as though this person had truly severed from the family. It was as though the comportment was in some way artificial. The item below certainly corroborates this. Of course, I am speaking of a cult member who has been in the cult for well over 30 years.
I understand that Larouche hates the mother figure, and hates families. How prevalent is the kind of behaviour described below and that witnessed by us, which though not as extreme is still disgusting.
Now that parents are older, what are the boomers doing to help them when they are so sick themselves because of their enslavement?
Folks, if you can report abuse in a neighbor's marriage, why can't the abuse in a cult be reported and taken seriously.
===================================

The only person I know in the cult, my cousin "E." never cut off contact with his parents. He left for Houston with Larouchies in 1981, but kept in touch by letter and phone, and came to visit every couple of years or so.
I began a fairly intense correspondence with him in the late 1980's. He did stay with and care for an elderly relative who died in 1981, before he left. I'm not sure how long he'd been with Larouche before that.
During that decade he also got his college degree, in Comparative Religion, and tried out Buddhism, Judaism (was studying to become Jewish) and later in the 1990's he became a Catholic (but I read that a lot of LCers also did that at that time)
I do know he was into the Communist party in the early 1970's after getting back from Vietnam. And I assume he got involved with Larouche not too long after that, since he was a fulltimer when he left town in 1981. I've been reading some, here, about the early 1970's connections with Marxists and the split that occurred.
He has never been open with me about what goes on in the group, and never mentioned any names, except twice.
He would talk to me about our common experiences with family members in childhood, and send what sounded like political rants I couldn't really understand or relate to or discussions of music, art, and literature that I usually argued back about... And his parents always got the EIR and he often brought me a copy of Fidelio, etc.
I'm sure the Org paid for his plane tickets home. I wonder if they thought his family was richer than they really are?

Now of course he is disabled and his elderly parents are caring for him...

05-05-2008, 11:12 PM

realme

Famous statesmen I had forgotten all about Hulan Jack, but you're right, he was a decent person and a joy to talk to. He reminds me of two others: Fred Wills and an Indian guy about 1980 (Ganesh something?). Members loved them because they brought a certain cachet to the org, but also because it was such a pleasure to talk to real political leaders who had actually accomplished something in the real world. We didn't yet know that as long as we stuck with the Great One, we would never accomplish anything.
BTW, my wife (also an ex-member) says LHL must be insanely jealous of Obama, because Obama, unlike little Lyndy, has created a real youth movement.
More tomorrow (maybe) on Vanguard Press and paying (or not paying) poor Doug.

05-05-2008, 11:15 PM

Hank

Quote:
XLCR4life wrote:
The car crash of you cousin into a tree worries me. That is a potentially huge liability for the entire cult if this was done while under some influence of a med or substance given by any person associated with this whole monstrosity. This action is not as two friends where one person has a headache and the other offers an aspirin. We clearly have a superior to lower level chain of command and directive along with a potential problem with a non licensed person, on behalf of the overall operation dispensing a substance which may be from a doctor in an unprofessional and illegal way. Doctors often have samples of meds given by drug company reps each visit for the MD to use on their patients in a documented fashion. You just do not hand out prescription meds willy nilly to someone to give to someone to give to someone.
I am not a lawyer nor a doctor and you should consult someone appropriate about this. Consider the chain of events if you worked for a company and they had a non medical employee tell you that you need to take a substance as a condition of employment. If you somehow wound up injuring yourself or someone else, the company becomes the target of liability.



"E." had driven that car to Texas in 1981, where he was sent by Larouche, and stayed there until 1994, when he was sent to Leesburg. It was an old family car and apparently still running in 2007. The car was driven into the tree hard enough to total it, although E. was not hurt.
So he had been depressed and having memory problems at least since Oct/Nov of 2005, and the "meds" given to him by Magraw were not working.
He wrote a cheerful letter on Jan 6, 2006, from Detroit, (about how they were regaling the ex-auto workers there about building maglev trains) where he spent a lot of time when not in Germany, although still "living" in Leesburg.
Then by Jan 19, 2006, he was thinking of coming home to stay.
But he didn't.
I doubt if his family will do anything legally, they still think the Larouche people were "nice" in getting their son home safely after he messed up the family car. (and he came back with huge credit card debts) They now have him set up with the Veterans health care system and SSI
My concern is his health and also I may be having to care for him after his parents are gone, since there is no one else. Should his current doctors know about what drugs he may have been given? They sent his medical records but of course I'm sure they won't include the informal "meds" he was given by his boss.
I also wonder if I could somehow get through to him, if talking about what happened would help at all? He has never answered any questions about what was really going on there, or even what his job was, except Security. and Now he seems not to even remember or not to have any opinion.
When I asked him last week if he had heard anything from the people in Virginia, he did a doubletake and then said they had called yesterday.
I missed a chance to ask what they had wanted or what they said...

05-05-2008, 11:24 PM

Hank

Quote:
Eaglebeek wrote:
Speaking as someone who knew the Kronbergs very well, I can say with a good deal of certainty that the parties E attended were not at their house--unless E was a member for many, many years.
I say this because, although in the early days they did give parties, and Ken was a terrific cook, from about 1990 or 1991 forward, they stopped having organization-wide parties.
This was partly because after the New York trial of 1989, Molly was considered to be trouble with a capital T, and she in turn considered most of the leadership to be nuts, so was not interested in entertaining them.
What the Kronbergs continued to have were Christmas dinners to which they invited close friends, Passover seders to which they invited close friends, Hanukkah parties for the kids (again, close friends). But that stopped at the end of the '90s, roughly, when other members of their circle started having the seders, etc., instead.
For a little while at one point in 2000, 2001, 2002, something like that, they had a Plato reading group meeting at their house, but that met mostly at the office and fell apart, according to Molly, because she kept disagreeing with Lyn's various moronic dicta on Plato, culminating in her rather harsh criticism of Lyn's stupid "analysis" of the Parmenides.

I have been going over the letters of his that I still have (most of them).
He wrote Dec 17, 2000 that he had been attending a group reading of Plato. No names of course. So it sounds like he did have some contact with Ken Kronberg, and no doubt admired him...
Not sure when he first mentioned the holiday parties, must have been on the phone. He never mentioned any names or details. Except the group sings and wine and food.
But I was thinking if he was influenced at all by the Kronbergs: that might be why he drove the car into the tree, and/or why he finally decided to come home. Or even may be the reason he was depressed? Maybe it was really an attempt at suicide, since the car was totalled, it doesn't sound like an accidental drift.

One other name he did mention on Sept 20, 2003, the day before her funeral, was Denise Henderson, who he had been dating. This was a surprise, because he'd had no serious relationships before that, that I was aware of. He clearly thought she was very worthy, smart, etc. This was a real tragedy and he did seem quite sad on visits after that.
The difference now is that he seems to have no emotional affect at all.

05-06-2008, 01:00 AM

poe

Quote:
Originally Posted by borisbad
Now that Hillary is talking about bombing Iran to defend Israel, how long till LaRouche changes his tune on Hillary in the race for the Dem Party nomination?


When was that ever not Hillary's policy?

05-06-2008, 02:48 AM

charltonrom

the sorrows of the old berther, peering into his mixed bag Ah, how the wistful melancholia grips, as I muse over the tableau of scandals and shoddiness, in some of which I took a part.
And yet I can look with interest at 21st Century Science, and at the contributions of Marsha Freeman anyway (which might be derivative but which are at least positive by and large) and say that my earlier opinions of the mixed character of the organization bear repeat: it is almost as if, mixed in with the lunacy, there is some real regard for progress and advance, and that the movement therefore represents a sort of infinitesimally-progressive gradient/stratum; that at the end of the day it might yet be a good thing that Lyn strutted his hours upon the stage (not for Ken nor the other immediate victims of course). Although I'd frantically warn against joining up, and would rail against the interpretations of history (especially scientific history) offered by Lyn and the org, I certainly couldn't discourage young people from taking up Kepler and Gauss; just don't take your exegetical cue from Lyn or Bruce (by the way, am I given to understand that Bruce isn't around any longer??)
Perhaps with due amounts of sunlight something can be salvaged from it all. Personally I'd favor some kind of nuclear renaissance, which I suppose would require some new financial and policy approaches. Some of his ideas therefore seem worthy, that is insofar as he's the publicized face of them; 'though I don't doubt but that the sweet nuggets, such as there are, have to be sorted out from the foul stew, and are seldom if ever his progeny. As I've said before: except for the megalomania and the expedient unscrupulous duplicity and the thieving and the contemptuous, even villainous abuse of his associates, Lyn's not so bad.
Maybe I'm just a dewy-eyed sentimental idealist, still. I should be more serious given what happened to Ken, I suppose, and if Jeremiah was murdered then yes, this is just a hideous front. As for Ken, I only met him once and although I loved Fidelio, as I've said before, if you orbit the red giant you may get burnt up. That's not excusing any wrongdoing from Lyn, but nobody pushed Ken; he did it himself, and if he was in despair, a man of his intelligence might have considered other solutions than suicide. Ken must have consciously known something of Lyn's execrable manner and history; why hang around him, then? All ex post facto reasoning you will say, but suicide is ultimately something you do to yourself. The organization may have driven him mad, and I can well understand how, given the abominable treatment he received; but let's face it: he could have said enough, at some point, and ditched out. Of course his death transforms from a PR disaster for Lyn into an opportunity for rhetorical gain. He's a monster, but the question remains: why did Ken stay in? Why didn't he get the hell away from this horrible, abusive ogre of a man?
And frankly I think there's ample material for satiric exposure without subscribing to the murdered-Jeremiah thesis, for which there is I believe little but circumstantial evidence. If I'm wrong, if Jeremiah was murdered, I apologize in advance. I would support another inquiry but from my experience with the cadre schools, which was considerable, nothing like this was even remotely likely. Yes, there may have been some pressure applied to join; but had I ever seen anything like violence I'd have been out years before. It was the shoddy history and absurd imputations of global power and influence for Lyn, plus the abuse of the members---financial and emotional, never physical--- that drove me out. But maybe there are/were some Really Bad Dudes amongst the European LYM.
I realize this is controversial and perhaps unwelcome ground for this forum. We're so angry at Lyn that we fall ourselves into unscrupulous tactics: I've seen Lyn-style mudslinging and name-calling, even, on occasion by some (Helga as "LaRouche's dog-wife," for example.) I prefer to present the organization as it is: I don't think all the young people would be involved if there wasn't SOMETHING they found truthful or valuable about it. Thus my approach, blending presentation of what is/was good, with what is bad. Luckily of course it's mostly bad, as that's a lot more fun. As I see it, if we don't tell the truth, that Lyn says/has said some noble and beautiful things, then our appearance of integrity and our ability to show the light to those still in Lyn's orbit, is compromised. There may be some good things Lyn has said, and perhaps even has done; but he himself? Ummm... not so much. Out the Ogre.
To me the org/LYM is more of a pathetic sinkhole for misfit idealists, some of whom are surprisingly bright for cult dupes, than a stormtrooper/brownshirt group. Despite his florid neurological mania and logorrhea Lyn was too busy lusting for power and scamming (and getting scammed, it seems) to articulate any consistent philosophy, but I find some interesting tech ideas in 21st Century, at least, ones I don't see elsewhere, and the Vernadsky stuff is kind of thought-provoking. As I read things it seems to me that life and intelligence ARE principles, and Vernadsky is intriguing as it appears to me that other available philosophic paradigms are pretty much bankrupt. If Vernadsky is worth even considering, then Lyn is (very) partially redeemed, as one of his publicists.
Well wax on overlong do I. Comments appreciated. Later: how Isaac Newton became transformed from an antiquarian subject of specialist scholars, into an object of mass, vulgar pagan adulation, as in our day.
charltonrom@gmail.com

05-06-2008, 03:52 AM

eaglebeak

Why Ken Did What He Did First, to Hank:
The Plato reading groups that took place for a (brief) while at the Kronbergs started out at the home of Bonnie and Fletcher James, then moved to the Kronbergs', and then to the office.
But Ken never attended a single one of them. Molly did because they were an outgrowth of the Editorial staff, of which she was a member (and in name at least the NC for Editorial--Nancy Spannaus being, of course, the NEC and the top Editorial honcho).
So I'm not sure "E" would have encountered Ken at those reading groups, since Ken simply didn't attend.
There were also Plato reading groups held for years and years on Sundays at Ian Levit's house, with the Steinbergs, the Shavins, etc. etc. Maybe E went to those.
I'm fascinated to learn that E was dating Denise Henderson--she was, I believe, living with Barbara and Zeke Boyd at the time of her death, so perhaps they had some impact on E--and in their case, not a helpful one, I think.
Charltonrom--
I think I've said this before, but I guess I need to say it more clearly: Ken couldn't just leave the org, because he was financially and legally tied up in so many knots over PMR and WorldComp that he couldn't walk away.
The org would have stuck him personally with hundreds of thousands of dollars in IRS debt and all the debt for all the equipment leases, etc. Since he was personally legally responsible--and potentially criminally so--for not having paid the withholding taxes, there was always the possibility that the IRS debt would wind up putting his family on the street, as well as sending him to prison.
As for the leases, he was also personally legally responsible for those, with the same potential effect, except minus the prison term.
Ken had no doubt--and I have no doubt about this, for a variety of reasons--that the org would knife him in the back and that Lyn would take great pleasure in seeing the Kronbergs out on the street, all their possessions seized by the IRS and other entities, and Ken on his way to prison.
Believe me, the IRS is a more forgiving agency than Lyndon LaRouche.
So Ken had some considerations to confront that no one else in the org has ever had to deal with.
In addition, I believe (remember, I knew the Kronbergs well) that Ken thought that he had ruined Molly's life by making her stay in the org all those years, and I do believe he thought he was liberating her. Of course, that was crazy--but Ken had in fact been driven crazy by that time.
As to the thesis that suicide is something you do to yourself--well, yes and no. If you look at the LaRouchies' campaign last year (AFTER Ken's death) against the Internet because of the child who was driven to suicide by an Internet gossip campaign, you can see that Lyn and his gang decided in that instance to take the position that the suicide was the fault of the gossipers, not the suicide herself.
Frankly, if someone is under tremendous aversive pressure, and fears more, and worse, and fears for his family, and finally "decides on" suicide after having been psychologically battered viciously and endlessly--you may think that's something the individual did to himself, but you may be seriously in error. Certainly from the standpoint of the moral calculus.
Lyn and Tony Papert and Jeff and Nancy and Dennis--all are guilty and most of them know they're guilty.
Now, since you didn't know Ken or his circumstances, there's no point in unfolding them to you ad tedium, but trust me, the people around him, working with him, knew jolly well that his suicide was not his act only--and perhaps not chiefly his act.
You can ask the few who are still around, if you can get them to talk about it.
Also, of course, there is the fact that Ken knew perfectly well that if he killed himself, which he clearly saw as a surcease in some respects, his widow Molly would do plenty to expose and destroy LaRouche. (I'll explain later how he knew that, if I never posted it--can't remember--or you never read it.)
So you could say that Ken knew that if he killed himself, he was killing Lyn. That he was sticking it to the org in the most direct and explosive way. Law enforcement figures and others have speculated that's why he did it so dramatically, violently, and publicly, and so close to the PMR/WorldComp plant. And why the ID he left in front passenger seat of his 1986 Toyota Corolla was his PMR business card, neatly stapled to a piece of PMR stationery.

05-06-2008, 10:18 AM

yamabkad

Quote:
Originally Posted by charltonrom
To me the org/LYM is more of a pathetic sinkhole for misfit idealists, some of whom are surprisingly bright for cult dupes, than a stormtrooper/brownshirt group. Despite his florid neurological mania and logorrhea Lyn was too busy lusting for power and scamming (and getting scammed, it seems) to articulate any consistent philosophy, but I find some interesting tech ideas in 21st Century, at least, ones I don't see elsewhere, and the Vernadsky stuff is kind of thought-provoking. As I read things it seems to me that life and intelligence ARE principles, and Vernadsky is intriguing as it appears to me that other available philosophic paradigms are pretty much bankrupt. If Vernadsky is worth even considering, then Lyn is (very) partially redeemed, as one of his publicists.

Sometimes a beautiful child may come from a rape, mental as it was. There is no need to hate the child, and there may be no need to hate the rapist. Then again, if the memories are too painful, one may end up committing a crime against the innocent and maybe even against the guilty for that matter.
As far as I know, there is no party line on factnet as regards larouche's entire career (or the particulars for that matter) except that we generally agree that his (+ acolytes') crimes (be they violations of laws and/or of ethics) are too innumerable to go unmentioned or unchallenged by the means available. What brilliant ideas (their glee-inducing luster now dimmed) get trampled in between are easily relivable by an individual equipped with a computer and a healthy sense of self and of the cult's abusive nature.
I keep reading this thing, and am grateful for the effort you all put into exposing this lunacy.

05-06-2008, 04:09 PM

poe

1 Attachment(s)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dking
oh dennis,
HE WANTS TO TAKE YOUR DRUGS AWAY, lol
good headline and gives you amazing credibility ***[Please provide any evidence that I ever wrote an article with that headline. I didn't, and such evidence doesn't exist. Seehttp://lyndonlarouchewatch.org/biglie.htm]***


I attached to this post a picture of the first page of Chip Berlet's article by this name. I knew that article existed because I remembered showing it to people at card tables to help convince them to join the Anti-Drug Coalition. It just took me awhile to find a picture of it. Yeah, the article is by Chip and not by Dennis, so King is technicaly correct when he says that he never wrote an article with that name. It wasn't him, it was his partner. But they both had anti-LaRouche articles in that same issue. And the LaRouche organization always mentions both of them when bringing this up. For King to be calling this a "Big Lie" is another example of pathological lying on his part, which is typical of both him and Chip Berlet.

05-06-2008, 05:51 PM

howie

I suppose it is good to have some clarification on the issue of "High Times", but I am left scratching my head. Dennis King would either be guilty of lying by omission in brushing aside the subtitle of Chip Berlet with "They Want to Take Your Drugs Away".
<i>And the LaRouche organization always mentions both of them when bringing this up.</i>
Except they don't. At least not online. When pressed, they may say "... or maybe it was Chip Berlet," or they may just press on with Dennis King. But I've gathered in the world of Larouchianism they've been morphed into the same person.

05-06-2008, 06:20 PM

earnest_one

Trival, Algorithmic-like schema

Quote:
Originally Posted by charltonrom
... but I find some interesting tech ideas in 21st Century, at least, ones I don't see elsewhere, and the Vernadsky stuff is kind of thought-provoking. As I read things it seems to me that life and intelligence ARE principles, and Vernadsky is intriguing as it appears to me that other available philosophic paradigms are pretty much bankrupt. If Vernadsky is worth even considering, then Lyn is (very) partially redeemed, as one of his publicists.
charltonrom@gmail.com

My reply is written quickly; forgive the many errors.
Here are my two cents, very much connected to my more than two senses (including common sense):
Long ago, LaRouche et. al., latched onto the following well-known fact (known to honest intellectuals, everywhere):
Many, if not most, of the truly original thinkers of the past were neglected during their own day, if not soon afterwards. These cases are ripe for revival.
To find a Vernadsky or a Perplasky, or a MajorSpasticity isn't difficult.
Credit should (only) be given if there is TRUE interest in the intellectual content; the mere "revival" via formal repetition of word-phrases, or a translation or two of complete works should be examined within the larger context. This is especially true if the real content is subsumed by some larger schema, often insane (megalomaniacal) at root.
Worse: The so-called revival often does more damage -- in the long run -- to the original thinker: "Vernadsky: wasn't he the guy who was promoted by that nutcase LaRouche?
A taint, a smell arises that permeates the area – stinks up the place, often for decades. Or the key ideas are actually suppressed (as they had been originally) while other aspects, more consonant with Lyn's current needs, are brought to the fore.
Either way, the driving theme is intellectual imperialism.
Charles Sanders Peirce is a recent case in point, albeit appearing (finally) from within the establishment intellectual press itself. Pierce was a towering figure in American Science, neglected during his lifetime and for many, many decades later. Read something about him here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Peirce
He died in poverty, neglected and abused.
It is relatively trivial to find other cases, still largely unknown, even high up in the so-called cognoscenti. Are Tesla's fantastic contributions taught in the American school system (I don't know, actually, but would guess not, or at least not honestly, or thoroughly – certainly not thoughtfully).
Many original thinkers have been ignored, or, in some cases, technical aspects of the work has been lifted while any philosophical essence was gutted.
I doubt LaRouche has/had the slightest genuine intellectual interest in Vernadsky, other than as a means to penetrate Russian circles, or prop himself up on some way or another. The names change, but the underlying theme (the lying theme) stays the same.
I give LAR and/or the org zero credit for their efforts to publicize anyone of merit. Sooner or later, Lyn will **** on the essential aspects of the person's work, ESPECIALLY if ANY originality is extent. LAR speaks/writes about creativity, but he can't even **** on it with originality. A sad, albeit true joke.
Originality is repressed everywhere, including Lyn's little org.
The fundamental sociological law underlying the true reason for this phenomenon was first rigorously described by Wilhelm Reich, Dr. Freud's best student. Note that the FDA burned Reich's books, here in America, in the 1950s. LaRouche's vanity press put out hit pieces on Reich, making bizarre claims about his work—claims that Reich himself predicted would be used in an effort to "take him down". Emotionally Plague-ridden individuals lost their minds while reading his original thoughts. They became too sexually stimulated and could only releive "the problem" via repression.
To sum up: It isn't THAT difficult to find a Hulan Jack or an Amelia Robinson (to be used for political "show-case" purposes), and it is relatively trivial to find historical figures, especially scientists of great originality who have been tossed into the waste-bin of history.
To be found and revived by a fraud like Lyn hardly constitutes progress if the net effect is negative: a sham revival may thwart, for many decades, any true revival -- a revival based on genuine interest not political expediency, or fruitcake-like "thinking patterns".

05-06-2008, 06:21 PM

earnest_one

Trivial, Algorithmic-like schema

Quote:
Originally Posted by charltonrom
... but I find some interesting tech ideas in 21st Century, at least, ones I don't see elsewhere, and the Vernadsky stuff is kind of thought-provoking. As I read things it seems to me that life and intelligence ARE principles, and Vernadsky is intriguing as it appears to me that other available philosophic paradigms are pretty much bankrupt. If Vernadsky is worth even considering, then Lyn is (very) partially redeemed, as one of his publicists.
charltonrom@gmail.com

My reply is written quickly; forgive the many errors.
Here are my two cents, very much connected to my more than two senses (including common sense):
Long ago, LaRouche et. al., latched onto the following well-known fact (known to honest intellectuals, everywhere):
Many, if not most, of the truly original thinkers of the past were neglected during their own day, if not soon afterwards. These cases are ripe for revival.
To find a Vernadsky or a Perplasky, or a MajorSpasticity isn't difficult.
Credit should (only) be given if there is TRUE interest in the intellectual content; the mere "revival" via formal repetition of word-phrases, or a translation or two of complete works should be examined within the larger context. This is especially true if the real content is subsumed by some larger schema, often insane (megalomaniacal) at root.
Worse: The so-called revival often does more damage -- in the long run -- to the original thinker: "Vernadsky: wasn't he the guy who was promoted by that nutcase LaRouche?
A taint, a smell arises that permeates the area – stinks up the place, often for decades. Or the key ideas are actually suppressed (as they had been originally) while other aspects, more consonant with Lyn's current needs, are brought to the fore.
Either way, the driving theme is intellectual imperialism.
Charles Sanders Peirce is a recent case in point, albeit appearing (finally) from within the establishment intellectual press itself. Pierce was a towering figure in American Science, neglected during his lifetime and for many, many decades later. Read something about him here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Peirce
He died in poverty, neglected and abused.
It is relatively trivial to find other cases, still largely unknown, even high up in the so-called cognoscenti. Are Tesla's fantastic contributions taught in the American school system (I don't know, actually, but would guess not, or at least not honestly, or thoroughly – certainly not thoughtfully).
Many original thinkers have been ignored, or, in some cases, technical aspects of the work has been lifted while any philosophical essence was gutted.
I doubt LaRouche has/had the slightest genuine intellectual interest in Vernadsky, other than as a means to penetrate Russian circles, or prop himself up on some way or another. The names change, but the underlying theme (the lying theme) stays the same.
I give LAR and/or the org zero credit for their efforts to publicize anyone of merit. Sooner or later, Lyn will **** on the essential aspects of the person's work, ESPECIALLY if ANY originality is extent. LAR speaks/writes about creativity, but he can't even **** on it with originality. A sad, albeit true joke.
Originality is repressed everywhere, including Lyn's little org.
The fundamental sociological law underlying the true reason for this phenomenon was first rigorously described by Wilhelm Reich, Dr. Freud's best student. Note that the FDA burned Reich's books, here in America, in the 1950s. LaRouche's vanity press put out hit pieces on Reich, making bizarre claims about his work—claims that Reich himself predicted would be used in an effort to "take him down". Emotionally Plague-ridden individuals lost their minds while reading his original thoughts. They became too sexually stimulated and could only releive "the problem" via repression.
To sum up: It isn't THAT difficult to find a Hulan Jack or an Amelia Robinson (to be used for political "show-case" purposes), and it is relatively trivial to find historical figures, especially scientists of great originality who have been tossed into the waste-bin of history.
To be found and revived by a fraud like Lyn hardly constitutes progress if the net effect is negative: a sham revival may thwart, for many decades, any true revival -- a revival based on genuine interest not political expediency, or fruitcake-like "thinking patterns".

05-06-2008, 07:25 PM

boomer70

not all bad always When I met up with the LC -- Zeke Boyd and the rest of the Baltimore local in 1971 -- I was a workerist basketcase, cheered on by every other left group I knew of. I'm grateful that the LC got me out of that mess, and I suspect that others here have similar histories.

05-06-2008, 09:34 PM

xlcr4life

The cult is making a big mistake in running webcasts of an 85 year old Lyn sputtering his way in front of Lym and Lymettes who enjoy being indoors instead of breathing in toxic fumes outside. The real money is in a reality show and an enterprising member has to put up a few web cams and broadcast the meetings between Lyn and his cult. MTV could pay the cult a few bucks and run something like" "Crazy House" from the basement to the Attic" or "LaroucheTown Follies" each week for a non stop party of cheap parlor tricks and comedy.
We have to return to the April 15th, 2008 operatiopns bulletin to review some cheap parlor tricks in action. read this and think back to the late 1970s when Lyn ran for president.

TONY: I mean, my view—well, forget it, I don't want to make a long speec h. But in my view, the whole thing goes back a long way, which is , you know, you can't really give out money, but you give out marquee space to people. Right?
LAROUCHE: Yeah, yeah.
TONY: You've been friendly to me, you've been my friend, you get onto the marquee, the movie marquee.
VOICE: The what?
TONY: The stars listings. You know, there used to be movie theaters, movie marquees, with the names of stars: "In this issue is so and so, three stars." Or someone will spend a whole morning, lobbying about some article or something or other, which should appear at some point.

Marquee? Maybe Lyn should have had the pen name "Lyn Marquee" instead of "Lyn Marcus". If anyone has an old NS from the 1970s you will find that this was an actual fact. People who were writing articles for NS at the time were given bylines which added a title to their names to show how Lyn was absolutlely going to win the White House. What we did was add a title to the person's byline.
Bob Dreyfus or Dan S had "US Secretary of State nominee" added to their name.
Richard Welsh I think became "US Treasury Secretary nominee"
We had a few more which became a source of irritation if your name did not have somehting added to it. Instead of paying you for your work, Lyn could just give you a paper nomination and make you think that your are important. One of the longest running cheap parlor tricks of Lyn is to make you feel like you are worth a ton of money, but have the ton of money be sent to Club Ibykus instead. The Cult Nazi had no trouble saying "No stipend for you" or having his lower level trash hand out 5 dollar bills a day. We will check out last weeks meeting to see how this continues.
LAROUCHE: The problem is, you don't run an organization on that basis, if you're serious. You run an organization and publications, in order to lead society around the necessary ideas, and most of the things people want to debate shouldn't be debated. They're a waste of time. And they bring in things which are a waste of time.
No, it's slop. And the whole thing, and there is an essential dishonesty in the entire Editorial department, which is not a matter that you can settle by debating it, or reforming people. It's corrupt.
It's like the whole thing with slugs. The way the slug problems arose, in terms of the site, was corruption. People said, "If I can't get my way, and control this, you're not going to publish!" You're not going to get anything. And you saw the sudden declivity. Now what had happened is that, when we're up to 20 to 30 slugs a day, sometimes that was overheated. {But!} The point was that—when the corrective went in—was to suffocate everything. Which was stupid! And it was intimidation of the youth on that, by some of the Boomers, that did it. They didn't want to get into that fight.
The real secret here is that by the time the 1980s ended, virtually everyone of the National Office intell sectors was emptied as people began to leave in droves. Boomers were working part time to avoid starvation and a sort of "autopilot" was created for the LC using simple computer search engines. As explained to me by a foreign visitor who was being wooed, he thought that he was going to see desks of people and a serious org. What he found was a Potemkin village in Leesburg where each night all of the search engine news stories which found the key names entered was reviewed by an NC or NEc member. They in turn would take the stories and keep the ones which supported what ever Lyn was in the mood for that day. Anything which was the opposite of that was tossed as who need to be "Ed Spannaused" . Poor Ed was doing this one day when he made the big mistake of crediting a San Diego Newspaper with a CIA/ drug story. Lyn did not want anyone to think that anything else exists outside of Bizarro world and chewed up the bottom of Ed's feet. (We know about your health problems Ed. You should have had those blood tests done earlier. NUWROapathy to Nueropathy so to speak Ed.)
The "slugs" are the simple paragraphs on different topics which are placed in the briefing. I have read briefings at times which looked like a reprint of Yahoo news entries with LC life sprinkled in. The crime of the boomers was providing hints that this whole thing is crazy and the real world has no interest in Larouche .

We now mosey on to last Sunday May 4th for something unintentionally funny called:
The Windy Hill Dialogues, May 3, 2008:
That will be posted later and for now we will go to a section called:
WARROOM OVERVIEW: CONCEPTUALIZING THE WEEK
Which has this blazing intro for the LYM and LYMettes:
"With the guidance of the greatest scientist of the 21st century, Lyndon LaRouche, we here in the Warroom, composed of Generals and the C.I.C. of the week, bring forth crucial
elements, to consider for our national fight throughout the week, including some policy initiatives which mus t be executed immediately. Upon arrival at Windy Hill Tuesday night, Lyn brought to our attention that there has been a shift in the U.S., in respect to the fact that people who are involved in the Obama camp, began to turn to Lyn, recognizing that he had been right all along about the nature of the Presidential campaign, stating that Obama will
be dumped like toilet paper, by the Brutish Empire when they no longer find him useful."
Excuse me while recover from hearty laughter. Since Lyn is not running for the White House, he can no longer promise naive yutes cabinet level positions in his administrations. Instead, this is turning out to be a cult verison of a fantasy baseball league with LYM members referring to themselves as "Generals"
But wait, there's more!
"Rest assured, this reality has hit them, and our role in this, is that we are concerned for the lower 80% who were part of the Obama camp, and we shall recognize, as we always have, that these people are entitled to their rights, deserve justice and we have the duty to act as guardians of justice. These people, whose political passion will be destroyed, upon recognizing that their so called "man of hope" is nothing but a "man of hoax," has nothing to offer, and is nothing but an empty condom, we have to operate from the standpoint that we must recruit them around Lyn's ideas, because it's the only thing that will work, and stop them from wandering in the next couple of months feeling hopeless and betrayed, and fight with us, under LaRouche's leadership, to avert the oncoming bloodbath known as the new dark age. This perspective coincided with the operation in the field, as we launched an emergency deployment to relieve the warehouses, and utilize our ammunition accordingly. Generally, we did fine. But as of this Monday, it will be required, that all the operations in the U.S., have prepared by that same evening, an inventory of the full load of ammunition, which you have been provided with. There are two reasons for this; call us in the war room if you wish to discuss the reasons why, which we all strongly encourage. Secondly, in order that we do not exhaust the troops by these types of deployments, which we know historically require tons of manpower and energy to accomplish, all the Field Commanders are required and responsible for coming up with concrete plans on how to achieve a constant steady flow of literature to the people. And, for God's sake, do not get stuck in the belief that all we are doing is getting out literature for the sake of literature, as if operating simply as lit. monkeys, but that this is a reflection on whether we are committed on a daily basis to organize a 250,000 base, from which we intend to draw full-time recruits. The Field Commanders otherwise, did deploy the troop s honorably"
Hold on here! We used to have field hands who were good a t raising money be in charge of another person or two and call them "Squad Leaders". In this rerun we now have declared the person who calls into the office with the stats a "Field Commander". This is too funny.
If anyone you folks think that being elevated to a Larouche General or Field Commander will bring more of the physical economey to your miserable life, guess again.
We go down a few more lines and find this:< /SPAN>
"Now Oakland admitted that they slacked the week before by only getting out 50 bundles, but were determined to deploy 250 bundles by the end of this week. Now ask yourselves, what is the significance? The significance is that Oakland had truly taken deep into their hearts the critical words of Thomas Paine. Just like the soldiers during the American Revolution, who fought without shoes in freezing temperatures, fought with a lack of food, clothing, medicine, and warm water, who choose to leave the world of the beasts and transcended to become citizens of the unity of time of our universe, eternity. Oakland acted in that tradition, knowing that they had to act in defense of our constitution, put immediate problems aside as they are enormous, and fight to organize, educate, and recruit the people."
This is LaroucheSpeak for "Here is your 5 bucks and be glad that you have that sucker". Really, the LC has experience with this because when we had convicted criminal Will Wertz take over the fundraising, the whole message each day was the same nonsense equating your thievery with a promisorry note as being on par with what the Founders of the American Revolution went through. We had centerfold after centerfold about how "patriots" lent money to Washington knowing that they would not get it back. If you were ready to be put to the curb and were begging for a bite of a LCers Bic Mac, then your problems were nothing.
Now who can find the secret word and make the Duck drop down?
"To clarify on what Lyn laid out, he said that we have to break all tendencies to propitiate the opinions of the masses. "There are structures of influence. Other people react to the population's pressures ,and there is too much concession to the population's pressures. We have the unique knowledge and people ask, `Does the field agree with it?' I don't care, I go for the source and I get results, so therefore we are not influential in the public as such, we impact the sensitive layers, and they represent the organization of popular opinion. We don't get direction from the ba se of the population. We find out what they are saying, but we don't believe it. We provide leadership, not followership, at the end of the line. "Get out there and make enemies, stick to what is right.> Stick to the truth. If you cannot go out there and make enemies, you don't have the guts to get to the truth. Drive! Influence the driver, don't go to the guy in the back of the bus!" We are the leaders, and only if we lead, will future children on the earth get their rightful place and identities, as children of the Republic, and not as subjects of Zeus, that is, the British Empire. (HR C.I.C. of the Week)"
The secret word is........................................?
PROPITIATE!
Mama Mia the cult really has come full circle as that word is now entering the LYM vocabulary and will mutiply like untreated bacteria. Lyn mentioned it in his Windy Hill Dialogues to the yutes. I would check next month to see if we find bow ties and pipe smoking making a comeback in LaroucheTown.
As the merryment continues you find that Lyn whoops it up as he the cult can print "titles" instead of money to give to people. Se if you can spot the next "Secret Word " and make the duck come down from the ceiling.
MALE: Which one?
Hector: 1932--1892 up to now. They weren't very clear about what's the point of it, 'cause you could tell, because they have very scattered questions about it, or particular questions,
and not trying to get a sense of the whole content of what Lyn'> talking about, with this continuation of a process of history from 1890 to now. We tried to clarify that last night, at the field commanders call. We don't call it "squad makers" no more--field commanders call. [laughter]

LYN: Oh God! "Awesome." [extensive laughter]

Hector: So, and just judging from the response that we got from a call that occurred after the discussion, after the general discussion, they said that it finally became fairly clear about
what it is, and have a certain sense of direction with it. Now, in terms of the people, there was two reports that were written, that came in recently from Boston and from the Portland
deployment, and they gave the best picture in terms of responding. The key thing which echoed on both sides, which on this question of the phase-shift of recognizing that Obama's going down,'
Hoochie Mama Hector, the secret word is:
"phase-shift
Yes, that powerful word which the LC always used to identify an imaginary change in which it had nothing to do with is now sliding of a LYM members tongue like an old pro.
Next, Lyn throws smoke into the eyes of the naive with a cheap parlor trick.
"We have, on the one hand--and I know a number of these cases, from Harley and from Debra and others, I get reports of exactly what's happening. We are influential {not} in the public as such. That's not where our primary source of influence is. Our primary source of influence is sensitive layers that respond to us, because they know we're important. And therefore, they discuss policy questions with us, and {they} represent thepeople who are organizing public opinion! So, we're going to the baseline of public opinion, when we should be going to people who are organizing public opinion, and getting them organized. And you do that, by going to the base--not to get direction from the base. Don't try to get direction from the base of the population! They don't know what the hell's going on! What's wrong with you?"
Let me once again tell you the little secret about how you handle a nut case who comes into your office. I heard this from many a staffer in Congressional offices. "You never argue with a nut, you just agree, nod your head and say "I know what you are talking about". Do not argue,take their convoluted material and say "Have a nice day" as you show them the door"".
Now Lyn gives his secrets organising people to LYM and LYMettes so they too can raise and spend 250 million dollars, have a 150 cadre after 45 years of work and hear poor ol Phil mutter on how "we are building a movement" like a bum on a bender.
" LYN: The problem is, that's not the way I think. That's not the way I think. Worst of all, don't let a perceived popular opinion shape your judgment--number 1. Don't be a populist. The way I think, is, I want to know what the truth is. I don't want to know what somebody's opinion is. I'll deal with that later. 'Cause I know their opinion is always wrong, so why should I bother starting from there? First of all, I've got to find out what the truth is, and find out which of these guys who's got an opinion is sens ible and who's not. Then I'm going to present a case, which presents a case for the truth. I'm not going to try to adapt to popular opinion. You think you're making yourself popular, by trying to be popular. I mean, you got young guys who're trying to be the popular girl at the dance, or something. And this doesn't work. It doesn't lead to reproduction, actually. [laughter] Anyway. You have to put things that way! You want to get things across, you got to shock people: You've got to give them ironies which catch them off balance. Then you get their attention, because you have to politely and kindly ridicule the garbage which their heads are filled with. And therefore, our first responsibility, is to be {right}, and to shape things around us on the basis of what's right. And to walk people through the historically valid demonstration of what's right, and also to expose them to why so many stupid people believe what's wrong! See, the main thing is, you want to convince somebody, convince them they're a sucker! Say, "obviously, you must be reading the wrong newspaper. I know you say, you've got opinion, but you obviously got it from the wrong newspaper." [laughter] Huh? Now, people think that's not the "way to win friends and influence people"--[laughter]--but, kissing ass and looking people in the eye are two different things. [laughter] Jeff: It's the other eye. looking people in the eye is the way to influence them. The first thing, is simply the truth: {What is true?} Not what is somebody's opinion. Because somebody's opinion is always wrong. What is true? that dumb jerk out there to understand it? And get him not only to understand it, but to do something about it? That's politics. Anything else is not politics, it's prostitution. And I don't think we can afford to waste our time on prostitution, our efforts. Don't try to please people! Benefit them! By pleasing
them, you're not benefitting them. You're encouraging them in their folly."
Prostitution? what about the many times the LC was directed by Lyn to run dirty tricks on the Dem party on behalf of Reagan Republicans for a few bucks.
Further on we see how the cult learned a new word by Lyn and just excactllt how he thjnks and feels about everyone else on the planet.
"I say the first thing you have to do, is have the courage to go out, and {deliberately make enemies!} On this issue. {Then} you have the ability to tell the truth. If you're not willing to
go out there and {seek to make enemies}, in a sense, you're not capable of discovering the truth. Because you yourself, become adapted to making yourself what you think is effective, by saying--like this whole cult that they had in the 1930s, "How To Make Friends and influence People." [laughter] The Dale Carnegie course, huh? That's exactly what produced the greatest increase in production of prostitutes of all varieties and sexes and species, was this kind of thing. And what you're describing here, is a problem we have obviously. Is the tendency is, that it was a Boomer problem, also here: Was the tendency to propitiate what one thought was a certain current of opinion, with the idea that by kissing ass, you could make friends. Which in some circles is possible, but I don't recommend it! You have to put it this way, otherwise, it doesn't get across. She left the room when I was going to say this.

[laughter] Her tender ears were not ready to hear this address!
FEMALE: Too bad!

MALE: She'll make up for it.

FEMALE: Oh, did I already miss it?

LYN: She's very productive, when you provoke her. [laughs] Anyway: I think we hit on something here, with that one. We hit on a problem, which explains a lot of things. I suspected something like that.

FEMALE: Which one, the one that Hector was bringing up, or what you just went through?

LYN: Also the same thing. Trying to assume that we should be controlled by seeking out what is actually public opinion, as opposed to telling these guys what their public opinion should be! Say, "You're not talking about public opinion--pubic opinion!" [laughter] You {have} to do it that way, you have to think that way. Because you've got to free yourself from the tendency to {propitiate}.

John H.: But that gets awfully hairy. [groans]

LYN: I don't have that problem. [laughter]
MALE: Some times we get reports...

FEMALE: Ah, the minority!

MALE: Yeah!"
Finally, Lyn sums up to the LYM and the LYMettes why they are The Chosen Ones who will finally carry out his mission which has been sabatoged by all those members who ended up being an agent, a boomer, weak, selfish and everything else under the sky. Someone here mentioned a 5 buck McDonald's gift certificate for a member and you are not too far off the mark. All that is missing is Lyn blessing them and saying "We salute those of you who are about to die"
"The problem was, we had a screw-up in the whole organization, because we had no organization. We had somebody walking in, from eating hamburgers or something, and they come in, and they're going to be on duty for two hours, and they're going to lay out the full intelligence report for the day, on the basis of having been there for only a few hours on a particular day. and having eaten hamburgers which probably gave them> indigestion! [laughter] Now, we've got the organization in a little better shape. We have a sense of organization. People are not there two hours a day, they're there more hours a day. They're there more or less every day, or most days of the week. They're reporting and they're discussing, not simply making up their list. Som ebody goes, "Don't interrupt me, I gotta tell my story." He goes on for half an hour... people leave the room. Say, "What? What's the intelligence report for today." [silence] That's what I was hearing. I used to get breaking this up, you know? "Okay, c'mon enough of that. Tell me some stuff, tell me!" I get 'em on this. Then they come in again with, "No! Lemme complete my story!" Another 15 minutes--"well, let's get back to something else." "No, no, I got this far, you can't stop me now, I got this fact!" And that's why the intelligence STUNK! That's why the slugs stunk. That's why there's a lack of coherence in what was being said: Because the work was not being done, and people were coming in--"I have an opinion. I heard a friend, from [inaudible] today. And he said--I wanna tell ya everything! DON'T INTERRUPT ME! DON'T INTERRUPT ME!"
[laughter]
And this became the intelligence report. And people got very angry: I was nasty and unpleasant personality. Unfortunately, I was not sufficiently unpleasant! Obviously. [laughter] I'll do better next time, I promise! No, I've written this stuff, you'll get it in the article, so I've tried not to go into too much detail here, but I wanted people from the War-Room in on this, because of what I indicated is the policy issue involved: How we're going to organize the intelligence, to get this conception in. And since we're going only in Riemann, do you get this kind of thing very clearly stated. You know, Riemannian function, get beyond Abelian functions, and when get to the edge of Abelian functions, don't drop off the cliff. Sail upward. [laughs] And that's what they're going to have to do! And so, on that basis, of shifting the orientation of the organization to this {actually} Riemannian> viewpoint, standpoint, and taking and looking at history, and looking at the immortality of the individual soul, in the real sense, not as like a free trip to a great entertainment park in the sky or something, that that's the way it has to be done. And so, the principle of scientific outlook, as extended from what is called mathematics and related subjects, into the way in which the human mind, the immortality of the individual personality, that's the thought to keep in mind: What do we actually mean by the immortality of the individual? That is, to separate the efficiency of the human mind, which has no biological explanation for its existence--hmm?--the efficiency of that mind and its immortality in its function, from the carcass in which that mind is carried around. And thus to look at the standpoint of the mind, and the carcass as a function of the mind, not the mind as a function of the carcass. That's the difference. And obviously most people these days in society, think of the mind of the function of the carcass, not the other way around. Us immortals think in terms of the--hmm?--because, as you get older, you get more and more immortal, you know--think of the carcass as s imply something that's used to carry the mind around in. Not the other way around. So that change in the whole operation, by integrating the scientific conception of the work we're doing, where the intelligence is the only thing that's going to do it. And you have to get away from this idea of propitiating popular opinion, totally. You have to {lead} popular opinion, you have to shape it! It doesn't know what it's doing. It doesn't know what planet it's living on. Huh? That's the point I want to emphasize--when I get this thing finished today. The bulk of the thing is sent in, now, and Merv has been exposed to its presence. I'll finish it up, as the other parts are shorter....

Lyn reminds of the worthless brother or cousin who can never hold a job, always borrows money , never pays it back , yet tells you how to spend your money , run your life, raise your kids and has a few decades of excuses about why he can't find a job.
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

05-06-2008, 10:11 PM

eaglebeak

Lit Crit I just want to know, Bundles of What?
Not joy, that's for sure.

05-06-2008, 10:15 PM

realme

LaRouche infiltrates Clinton campaign The list of delegates to the 10th Congressional District (Leesburg and environs) Democratic convention includes the following delegates and/or alternates pledged to Clinton: Nancy Spannaus, Anton Chaitkin, and Kathy Notley. I believe this local convention chooses delegates to next month's state convention, which in turn chooses delegates to the national convention in Denver in August.
Hillary, meet your new friends.

05-06-2008, 10:40 PM

realme

The day I stiffed Doug of $20 Vanguard Press--that brings back memories of making the truck run out to New Jersey with the New Solidarity mechanicals and a box with $1500 in small bills. Finance office gave this to me the night before (along with one or two free Big Mac coupons if I was lucky) so I had to drive home to my crime-ridden neighborhood, park the truck a couple blocks away, walk home with the money under my arm, then walk back to the truck at 5 or 6 am and drive out to Vanguard.
Once I sideswiped a double-parked delivery truck, damaging his side view mirror. (Also wiping out my own right-side mirror but who needs that on a LaRouchemobile.) I gave the driver a twenty (my inflation calculator tells me $20 in 1976 is $76 today) to make the whole thing go away, so I must have been $20 short when I got to Vanguard (maybe more if I stopped for coffee and a doughnut). I guess when they counted the money (ones, fives, maybe a few tens) they either lost count, or they were used to getting shorted.
I loved these trips. When you're a national office slave, these truck runs were paradise. You could tune the radio to any station you wanted with no pompous a** questioning you. And of course you always got stuck in traffic on the way back. Bad traffic. Ironclad excuse for driving to a state park and taking a couple hours off to hike or just rest. People in the regions driving somewhere to pick up a contribution often got stuck in traffic too.
Everyone back in those days ran some kind of scam to get out of work. The intelligence sector people assigned to WorldComp typing shifts (moving ahead in the narrative a few years) always arrived an hour or more late, and often with a shopping bag or two from Bloomingdales or Saks. You could tell who was hiding family money from the finance office. But there were fewer snitches at WorldComp than in the National Office.
What a lovely way to live, sneaking around like you're 4 years old.

05-07-2008, 12:28 AM

borisbad

Some memories produce nightmares. I too worked at WorldComp for awhile, where I learned typesetting which at least set me in good stead to find employment after I left the organization. Many times I remember working the graveyard shift and then driving home in LI (at that time people could still live with their parents). Having deployed in the day and then working graveyard, needless to say I was stupendously tired one night when I was driving on the LIE out of NYC to LI. I remember closing my eyes, feeling my car go up towards the median, and fortunately woke up quick enough to get the car back under control. Traffic was light so not even a fender bender as a result, but that was the life in the org.
Another night I remember being at John Covici (what happened to him on this site?). He was transcribing some tapes of a conference and needed help. So I finally left his house about 4 a.m. again to go back to LI. This time it was the beginning of a blizzard, and my heater/defroster wasn't working. So I'm driving all the way out to Nassau County with my arm sticking out the window trying to keep my window free of ice. By the time I made it to LI I nearly had frost bite. I probably had to get up and deploy the next a.m. but this was actually before we routinized the 18 hour deployment days.
No wonder there were so many people losing their lives in the LaRouchmobiles.

05-07-2008, 03:02 AM

localgreek

Credit should (only) be given if there is TRUE interest in the intellectual content; the mere "revival" via formal repetition of word-phrases, or a translation or two of complete works should be examined within the larger context. This is especially true if the real content is subsumed by some larger schema, often insane (megalomaniacal) at root.
Worse: The so-called revival often does more damage -- in the long run -- to the original thinker: "Vernadsky: wasn't he the guy who was promoted by that nutcase LaRouche?
A taint, a smell arises that permeates the area – stinks up the place, often for decades. Or the key ideas are actually suppressed (as they had been originally) while other aspects, more consonant with Lyn's current needs, are brought to the fore.

I doubt LaRouche has/had the slightest genuine intellectual interest in Vernadsky, other than as a means to penetrate Russian circles, or prop himself up on some way or another. The names change, but the underlying theme (the lying theme) stays the same.
I give LAR and/or the org zero credit for their efforts to publicize anyone of merit. Sooner or later, Lyn will **** on the essential aspects of the person's work, ESPECIALLY if ANY originality is extent. LAR speaks/writes about creativity, but he can't even **** on it with originality. A sad, albeit true joke.
To be found and revived by a fraud like Lyn hardly constitutes progress if the net effect is negative: a sham revival may thwart, for many decades, any true revival -- a revival based on genuine interest not political expediency, or fruitcake-like "thinking patterns".[/QUOTE]
---------------------------------------------------------
LOCALGREEK: I agree entirely with the above comments (please note that I have cut out some paragraphs to save space.) I do not think Larouche should be given any credit for anything regarding Vernadsky except for his (that is Larouche's) fraudulent so-called Science.
Vernadsky is very well known in Eastern Europe. There are statues of him, boulevards named after him, institutes named after him, and also a mineral, and much much more in Russia and Ukraine.
Although Vernadsky lived in Russia and in Ukraine, he used to go to Western Europe every year to meet with scientists, and to lecture-- this until the 1930s (I don't have the specific date)when it was decided not to let him out. He had offers, when he was in Europe to remain and take on positions at La Sorbonne. He was pressured to return to the Soviet Union. So, he is also known in France, quite well.
In the English speaking world Vernadsky was also known to some extent, but perhaps not as much because his work was not extensively translated and we Americans tend not to emphasize the study of foreign languages.
Nevertheless, many of our REAL scientists were and are familiar with Vernadsky's work. Now, his name will likely become more and more familiar, as there are many theses being written about him in the English speaking world. His biography is out in English, and I trust that in the next decade more will be translated.Attention on Vernadsky has been growing since the 90s. This is not due to Larouche!!!!!
My impression of Larouche is that he has a talent for finding something that is obscure that he thinks will impress his poor followers. He's like a collage artist--I like the parlor tricks title that xcl4life uses-- unable to do anything original, but able to paste things together and then claim those talents are really his and like him.
Reading Vernadsky is a delight--his prose is clear and lucid; reading Larouche on Vernadsky is the most torturous experience to subject oneself to. Larouche needs Composition 101; his sentences are contorted; they are needlessly (perhaps intentionally) convoluted--I guess he wants to impress--but that kind of prose is not impressive. I urge the LYM etc. to read Vernadsky and not Larouche. I am sickened to see how Larouche attaches himself to a man of Vernadsky's genius and talent. Talk about riding coat tails--why don't the LYM see this?

05-07-2008, 08:00 PM

boomer70

Quote:
Originally Posted by borismaglev
And the only composer he really liked was Wagner.

interesting. why do you say this?

05-07-2008, 09:45 PM

eaglebeak

Love-Death, Sex, Lies, Videotape Plus (as a follow-on to Lyn's early infatuation with Liebestod), Lyn was initially quite hostile to Bach, and claimed that Mendelssohn's revival of Bach's reputation was an operation against Beethoven.
I ask you.
Lyn is also as fickle and labile (one of his favorite words, another case in which his fixations reflect only his own weaknesses) as a teeny-bopper, so that he could spend years sucking up to, e.g., pianist Carlo Levi Minzi, and then years more denouncing him.
The fact of the matter (and this goes for Lyn's dicta on everyone from Heracleitus to Vernadsky) is that the guy is very poorly educated (the self-educated man has a fool for a pupil/teacher), terrible at math, terrible at learning languages, completely clueless in philosophy, etc. etc. etc.
A completel lightweight intellectually, but heavy as lead on the ego front.

05-07-2008, 09:50 PM

boomer70

bizarre truly bizarre. if you google at: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=Wagner+site:www.larouchepub.com you get oodles of stuff attacking Wagner. i would much appreciate any further info on this.

05-08-2008, 08:34 AM

Hank

Eaglebeek wrote:

Quote:
I'm fascinated to learn that E was dating Denise Henderson--she was, I believe, living with Barbara and Zeke Boyd at the time of her death, so perhaps they had some impact on E--and in their case, not a helpful one, I think.

Thanks for more info on who maybe influenced him. One problem is that my cousin will not discuss any aspect of the Larouche experience. I have no idea how he feels about them/it now. Like when I asked if he'd heard from them he said "they" called. How strange is that? 30 or so years living and working with "them" and he can't even say a first name?
He used to write sometimes about a housemate who was dying of cancer and they were taking care of him.Now reading this I wonder if he was even getting adequate medical care. He did die. But still no names.
That's why it was remarkable when he mentioned Denise and later, Rick.
Do you suspect it was more of a fantasy relationship? (E had written that he had been dating Denise ) if so do you mind explaining why?
Now that I've gotten this other view of it all, I would like to debrief him a bit, but don't want to say anything that would make him really distrust me or my motives. Make him clam up for good...
I am glad to hear they probably didn't drug or torture or hypnotize him to make sure of his "silence", but hey, with absolutely no information and then this nightmare scenario I've been reading about...?
Also if they scam people for money I wonder if his parents retirement funds are safe?
They are pretty tight with money, but even so...

05-08-2008, 08:43 AM

Hank

boomer70 wrote:

Quote:
not all bad always
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When I met up with the LC -- Zeke Boyd and the rest of the Baltimore local in 1971 -- I was a workerist basketcase, cheered on by every other left group I knew of. I'm grateful that the LC got me out of that mess, and I suspect that others here have similar histories.


Thanks for that.

05-08-2008, 05:29 PM

localgreek

Quote:
Originally Posted by borismaglev
Not so. LaRouche has no talent whatsoever for "finding something." All the celebrated names that he keeps referring to, Riemann, Vernadski, Leibnitz, Dante, Plato, Cantor, Aeschylus, and so forth, were brought to his attention by former, now long gone members: Uwe Parpart, Jonathan Tennenbaum, Moe Levitt, Steve Bardwell, etc. LaRouche never read seriously any of the great names - at best he just skimmed through a few pages after he was told that they are important. He only people he really read comprehensively are Marx and Kant and to a lesser extent Hegel. And the only composer he really liked was Wagner. He hated Bach until he was shamed by musically trained members into pretending that he likes him. He half-likes Beethoven only because he mistakes Beethoven's orchestration for Wagnerian bombast. The man is a total fraud.

==================================
Localgreek: Thanks Borismaglev for these insights; I am a total outsider; mine was just a conjecture to try and sort out what attracted so many bright people to this man. I grant that I do not understand, and less and less with every passing day.
As for Vernadsky, well in the EIR article of May 18. 2005, larouche in the 7th paragraph there says he became familiar with Vernadsky in the late 1940s. (I do not believe this at all!! Does Larouche know German? Russian? French?)
There are constantly paragraphs where Larouche inserts himself into Vernadsky's work to make it look as though he and Vernadsky came up with all this almost together. (I quoted just now several paragraphs but the server keeps droping so I am typing fast and won't quote at this point.)
I still do not understand what attracts people to this man. And I still do not understand why more former members do not post to alert at least the young.

05-08-2008, 06:48 PM

borisbad

LaRouche on music

Quote:
Originally Posted by borismaglev
Not so. LaRouche has no talent whatsoever for "finding something." All the celebrated names that he keeps referring to, Riemann, Vernadski, Leibnitz, Dante, Plato, Cantor, Aeschylus, and so forth, were brought to his attention by former, now long gone members: Uwe Parpart, Jonathan Tennenbaum, Moe Levitt, Steve Bardwell, etc. LaRouche never read seriously any of the great names - at best he just skimmed through a few pages after he was told that they are important. He only people he really read comprehensively are Marx and Kant and to a lesser extent Hegel. And the only composer he really liked was Wagner. He hated Bach until he was shamed by musically trained members into pretending that he likes him. He half-likes Beethoven only because he mistakes Beethoven's orchestration for Wagnerian bombast. The man is a total fraud.

Lyn definitely used to talk about the Liebestod principle in the early days although I can't remember it in writings, but more as a topic he brought up at one or other Strategy For Socialism Conference (I doubt he uses those titles anymore). I also remember in the 70s at one such conference he was actually talking favorably about Charlie Parker and bebop, although later he usually referenced musicians such as Parker and even Scott Joplin as black musicians who had promise but were denied access to playing in classical orchestras. Therefore, the only good music that existed was classical music, specifically, later on Beethoven, Bach and Mozart, and secondarily musicians like Mendelsohn, Schubert and Verdi, with Brahms probably considered to be third tier or the end of the line, classically speaking.
And of course, he always favored the Germanic conductors and musicians like Wilhelm Furtwangler, who played on during the Nazi reign, while attacking others like Leonard Bernstein and James Levin.
:eek:

05-08-2008, 06:49 PM

xlcr4life

2 Attachment(s)

Quote:
Originally Posted by eaglebeak
Lyn is also as fickle and labile (one of his favorite words, another case in which his fixations reflect only his own weaknesses) as a teeny-bopper, so that he could spend years sucking up to, e.g., pianist Carlo Levi Minzi, and then years more denouncing him.

This is worth explaining as it is yet another example of where the LC was doing something and then......poof..... it vanishes, never to be discussed or talked about again.
LocalGreek, when you are in the LC and you are fairly young, the one stop apporoach to funding a group of people who base themselves on intellectualism, science, the arts, classical music is very inviting. That is the recuitment pahase. The LYM and LYMettes certainly enjoyed their time in the past being raised like veal before the older herd is put out to slaughter and they become the new flesh for Lyn.
Carlo Levi Minzi was one of first 'finds" in having an up and coming musical star to work with us. We put out a few albums of his piano skills which I still have. Now THAT looked normal and exciting to many of us. We also hooked some more musiicians including a cellist I think named Magnon whose CD I also have and still play. For Carlo Minzi it seemd like we were becoming less of a cult and actually promoting some good work, until it became like everyhtng else and nothing but a platform for Larouche to be worshipped. For some members it appeared that they could do promotional work and put on some concerts with a tour by Minzi and other musicians we had. Instead, always understand that in a cult/mafia like the LC where Lyn runs everything and everything is about Lyn, money does not go where you think it is going. In the 1980s we pulled off an opera and other concerts in NYC concert venues.
Everything is about Lyn and that is how it functions. In a normal org this would be exciting stuff instead of a vanity project for a cult leader.
Forget about budgets and setting aside money for expenses like hall rentals and such We could sell out every seat and still try to stiff the hall and other vendors. The job of the NCs was to creat some mularkey about how even though you raised ticket money and spnsorships for the show, there was no money as it was being used up in the nedless stream of Lyn assasination plots and lunacy. If you had an FEF dinner and sold out a banquet hall, you had the same problem with money not being available for payment of the vendors and another mad dash to get a supporter to give us their credit card to pay the venue.
Minzi became the star of the LC until he was no longer mentioned and just vanished.
The good news is that he does have a career , does concerts and makes CDs.
Can anyone translate this and post it?
Carlo Levi Minzi, allievo di Enrica Cavallo, Vladimir Natanson, Paul Baumgartner e Mieczyslaw Horszowski, ha tenuto circa 2000 concerti nelle principali città del mondo (Sala Verdi di Milano per Serate Musicali e Società dei Concerti, Festival Pianistico "Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli di Bergamo e Brescia, Maggio Musicale Fiorentino, Teatro Regio di Torino, Accademia Chigiana di Siena, Teatro Comunale di Bologna, Salle Pleyel - Paris, Tonhalle - Düsseldorf, Liederhalle - Hamburg, Skrjabin Museum - Moskva, Lincoln Center - New York, Town Hall - New York, Academy of Music - Philadelphia, Bellas Artes - Ciudad do Mexico, Muenchen, Saint Petersburg, Stockholm, Helsinki, Amsterdam, Tel Aviv, Los Angeles, Cape Town ecc.) ed effettuato numerose registrazioni radiotelevisive e discografiche.
E' stato recensito dalla stampa italiana (Corriere della Sera: "Levi Minzi, pianista di talento... ha suonato con fervida passione, slancio e intelligenza, ed è stato molto applaudito; Quirino Principe per CD Classica ecc.) e straniera (Edward Rothstein per New York Times: "...Mr. Minzi treated the music with such delicacy and care..."; Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung ecc.).
Il suo repertorio si estende da Bach ai giorni nostri e comprende, oltre al ciclo integrale delle Sonate di Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert e Skrjabin, anche più di cinquanta Concerti per pianoforte e orchestra.
Carlo Levi Minzi è Professore Ordinario al Conservatorio "G. Verdi" di Milano ed è stato Visiting Professor presso prestigiose istituzioni quali la City University of New York, The Mannes College of Music of New York, il Conservatorio di Oberlin e la Universidad Veracruzana di Xalapa (Messico).
What borismaglev was mentioning about how we had talented and educated people who came up with ideas and things persue is absolutely correct. IN the National office we had a member who I think was named Peter who had amassed a library of research papers done by members. What was interesting to examine was seeing just how much poriginal work was done by our members and then passed to the memebrship as Lyn's creative breakthroughs. Lyn would take something in the work which fit with what ever his delusions were at the time and expand it with his lunacy and then type up a centerfold announcing his revolutionary work.
Ohter leaders also took shortcuts and I received an email from someine recently whose husband knew and did a lot of work on the far right wing groups in the USA and the numerous conspiracy plots with the Illuminati and Masons etc. Uwe P it seems gathered the work and then plamed it off as his own research and at the time I do not recall any other name appearing as a cowriter. Part of why you do not see Bill Engdhal is becuase I htink he got tired of this and started to copywrite his work and eventually just publkished it himself.
Yutes, do not get screwed doing any translating or original work in the cult because once it appears on their web site or publication, you do not own it or have any claim on it. We had a young member write a book which we sold a few hundred thousand coipes of who was royally screwed in not having any claim after the person left the LC.
I am not a musical expert and just went along with the flow. Lyn will not only take credit for this, he will contaminate any idea with himself with the infection causing a complete change with the Larouche parasite taking over. At Club Ibykus we had gahterings of ourt musical people which included some pretty talented people. One of the better educated voices commented to Lyn that it would be a good idea to check out the tuning of instruments from the accepted 440 cylces to where C = 256. There was a history behind this and was worth checking out. The members do the work and by the time the smoke cleared we have Lyn sending an opus through the system that he has made a new discovery in tuning and can claim it as another evil plot by the oligarchy in the never ending New Dark Ages battle. The same thing was done with "The Golden Mean" geometry and so many other avenues we went down.
The final outcoem is always the same where it all becomes about Lyn and the role of the musicians now is to raise money and find support and worshipers for Lyn. We were successful in getting Norbert Branin of the Amadeaus Quartet and a few other musicians to wine and dine them with Lyn . This really is no different than what we used the FEF for or the Intell sectors for in finding the people and seeking the few who can be fooled by us into thinking that Lyn is a genius. As long as you run around their field and give them material which they may not be familiar with, you can get a few marks.
None of this is because they met Lyn first! Our members were the ones who presented the facade and people were honest in their intentions to a degree. What drove most members out who did this was seeing all of their years of work and thinking Lyn actually was a genius go up in flames when Lyn met someone and shot off his mouth and blew up the meeting. Later, you would read somehting by Lyn baout how so and so was an agent sent to destory him or how the person was "gotten to" by the ADL or some other enemy of Lyn's.
After doing this for decades, Lyn is an expert in the cheap parlor tricks which is why I had to post the opening statments by the LYM warroom about how they see Lyn as the " Greatest scientist of the 21st century".
Well if the LYM and LYMettes think that they are "Generals and Field Marshalls " , I guess they will view Lyn as a genius in the Larouchetown Bizarro world.
Below you can see some pictures of the present Carlo Levi Minzi. I have some pictures of our musical members I will downsize for viewing later.
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

05-08-2008, 08:04 PM

eaglebeak

High-Flying Carpet Uh-oh. It looks as if Jeff and Paul's Main Man, their No. 1 Source, the "Intelligence Operative" who guided all of LaRouche's most ... brilliant decisions, has finally gone on trial.
I refer, of course, to Farzad Darui, or "Carpet," whose enormous amount of loot from the org over the years (he was paid in cash weekly) is called by some Carpet Tax.
Here's the link:
http://washingtontimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080508/METRO/880433619/1004/metro
Here (below) is the article, for those who don't choose to use the link
Defense: Mosque funds for debt
By Gary Emerling
May 8, 2008
A Falls Church man charged with embezzling more than $430,000 from the Islamic Center of Washington, D.C., was authorized to take the money so that the mosque's director could repay a debt to him incurred for the upkeep of two reputed mistresses, his counsel said yesterday.
The debt represented back rent and other costs the center's director owed to the accused, Farzad Darui, for two apartments he maintained for the women, defense attorney Victoria Toensing said.
Papers filed by the defense last year say the debt was for "the housing and feeding" of the director's "additional 'wives' or mistresses."
Mr. Darui, 48, has been charged in U.S. District Court with embezzling the funds while he was business manager for the mosque — one of the most prominent Islamic places of worship in the country. The center, on Massachusetts Avenue Northwest, was dedicated in 1957 and is one of the nation's oldest mosques. The Washington Times first reported the criminal investigation in 2006.
Prosecutors say Mr. Darui funneled money — over 5½ years beginning in 2000 — from the mosque's bank accounts by sending checks to two Virginia-based companies that he controlled.
They contend Mr. Darui altered mosque checks to make them payable to Zaal Inc. and Blue Line Travel, which he operated; that he deposited checks payable to employees or contractors of the center into his business bank accounts; that he had the center's director, Abdullah M. Khouj, unknowingly endorse duplicate checks; and that he changed the center's mailing address for a checking account to a post office box in the District to help conceal the theft.
During opening arguments of Mr. Darui's trial yesterday, Assistant U.S. Attorney Ronald W. Sharpe said Mr. Darui changed the "payee" line on mosque checks 142 times during the period.
According to court documents, concern about the center's finances arose after Mr. Khouj ordered an independent audit because he was planning to leave his post to become the Saudi ambassador to South Africa.
"Remember, this is a paper case," Mr. Sharpe told jurors. "Follow the money, ladies and gentlemen, follow the money."
However, Ms. Toensing said her client is innocent of the charges and never cashed any check of which Mr. Khouj was not "fully aware."
Ms. Toensing said one of Mr. Khouj's reputed mistresses had "emotional problems" and pulled out electrical cords and bathroom tiles in at least one apartment.
"Ladies and gentlemen, this is not how we would do business," Ms. Toensing said. "But it is the way Dr. Khouj insisted on doing business and paying back Mr. Darui."
Court filings also show that Saudi Arabia exercised financial control over the mosque. Ms. Toensing said the Saudis sent $500,000 each year to the center, that there were no restrictions on how Mr. Khouj used such funds and that the director used some of the money for personal purposes.
Both Mr. Darui and Mr. Khouj are expected to testify in the case, which is set to continue today. Yesterday's witnesses included a librarian at the center who cashed checks for the mosque and an FBI agent who led the embezzlement investigation and found and seized numerous checks, documents and other items, including a typewriter during searches of Mr. Darui's offices.
Mr. Darui faces a maximum sentence of 20 years in prison and a $250,000 fine if convicted. Prosecutors also are seeking to have him forfeit property that may have been derived from the suspected scheme.

And here's hoping that The LaRouche Connection gets into the trial somehow.
Maybe former LaRouche members from the area should find out which U.S. District Court it's in--Alexandria or DC, my guess being DC--and drop in to observe the testimony of the man who held in his hands the destiny of that Man of Destiny, Lyndon LaRouche.

05-08-2008, 11:08 PM

boomer70

Maglev rocks!

05-08-2008, 11:33 PM

xlcr4life

Quote:
Originally Posted by boomer70
Maglev rocks!

Hear hear! I second that motion and request that that post be placed on Laroucheplanet.info so it can be read by all.
Next, we need to find out if the female lover of Helga was one her body guards who used to accompany her 24/7 , not that there is anything wrong with that.
Then, we need to ask how many LYM and LYMettes have signed over their stimulus checks from the Feds to Lyn? Any correlation between Lyn stimulating the LYM in LaroucheTown this week and the stimulus checks?
Psst, tell the NC that you still have not gotten the direct deposit or check yet and use the money to get the hell out of there ASAP. 300 bucks can get you a plane flight anyhwere in the USA to your freedom. If you have a partner, you got 600 bucks to get you away.
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

05-09-2008, 03:57 AM

localgreek

Can anyone translate this and post it?
Carlo Levi Minzi, allievo di Enrica Cavallo, Vladimir Natanson, Paul Baumgartner e Mieczyslaw Horszowski, ha tenuto circa 2000 concerti nelle principali città del mondo (Sala Verdi di Milano per Serate Musicali e Società dei Concerti, Festival Pianistico "Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli di Bergamo e Brescia, Maggio Musicale Fiorentino, Teatro Regio di Torino, Accademia Chigiana di Siena, Teatro Comunale di Bologna, Salle Pleyel - Paris, Tonhalle - Düsseldorf, Liederhalle - Hamburg, Skrjabin Museum - Moskva, Lincoln Center - New York, Town Hall - New York, Academy of Music - Philadelphia, Bellas Artes - Ciudad do Mexico, Muenchen, Saint Petersburg, Stockholm, Helsinki, Amsterdam, Tel Aviv, Los Angeles, Cape Town ecc.) ed effettuato numerose registrazioni radiotelevisive e discografiche.
E' stato recensito dalla stampa italiana (Corriere della Sera: "Levi Minzi, pianista di talento... ha suonato con fervida passione, slancio e intelligenza, ed è stato molto applaudito; Quirino Principe per CD Classica ecc.) e straniera (Edward Rothstein per New York Times: "...Mr. Minzi treated the music with such delicacy and care..."; Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung ecc.).
Il suo repertorio si estende da Bach ai giorni nostri e comprende, oltre al ciclo integrale delle Sonate di Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert e Skrjabin, anche più di cinquanta Concerti per pianoforte e orchestra.
Carlo Levi Minzi è Professore Ordinario al Conservatorio "G. Verdi" di Milano ed è stato Visiting Professor presso prestigiose istituzioni quali la City University of New York, The Mannes College of Music of New York, il Conservatorio di Oberlin e la Universidad Veracruzana di Xalapa (Messico).
=============================
Localgreek: My Italian is not as strong as my French, but I'll give you a short synopsis of what it says:
Carlo Levi Minzi, a student of Enrico Cavallo, Vladimir Natanson,Paul Baumgartner, and Mieczyslaw Horszowski, has perfomed circa 2000 concerts in the major cities of the world (--then follows a long list of concert halls in various cities from Milan to Cape Town which I won't retype), as well he has recorded numerous pieces for radiotelevision and for CD discs.These have been reviewed in the Italian "Correra della Sera:" MInzi is a pianist of talent...who plays with intense passion and intelligence and is much applauded for this; a foreign reviewer, Rothstein of the New York Times writes: (this part you can all read it is in English), and he was also reviewed in the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung.
His repertoire ranges from Bach to the entire cycle of Mozart's Sonatas, Beethoven, Schubert and Skrjabin, as well as some 50 concertos for piano and orchestra. Minzi is professor at the conservatory in Milano, as well as being a visiting professor in such prestigious institutions as City Univ. of NY,The Mannes College of Music in NY, and the Oberlin Conservatory in Mexico.

05-09-2008, 12:03 PM

eaglebeak

Another Example First, on the American System, let's give credit to two others to whom it is also due, in addition to Allen: Nancy Spannaus and Chris White, whose "PEAR" book--The Political Economy of the American Revolution--arose from work they were doing in 1976 on American System economics, which LaRouche, as usual, devoured whole.
In the course of 1976-77, LaRouche went from being a pseudo-Marxist to being a pseudo-Careyite (or something)--or rather, to discovering that Ben Franklin had joined the Labor Committee.
What Borismaglev describes is precisely true, in every field of intellectual endeavor.
Another example is Ken Kronberg and the Yiddish Renaissance. Somewhere around 1980, Ken got sick of the anti-Semitic crap streaming out of the org (the first edition of Dope, Inc. was memorable, of course, because of its citation of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion; also, Jeff Steinberg's dreadful New Solidarity centerfold on the "Joint Distribution Committee," which I remember infuriated Ken and Molly).
In 1980-81, Ken began the process of laundering Jewish culture into the org, in the form of Heinrich Heine (safe, because he was German), Moses Mendelssohn (ditto safe because ditto German), and showing how, through the Haskalah movement (Haskalah = Enlightenment), the work of Heine, Mendelssohn et al. reached Eastern European Jewry, to emerge as the Yiddish Renaissance of such great Yiddish writers as Sholem Aleichem, Isaac Peretz, Mendele Mocher Sforim.
The related work of others in later years--you can read it in Fidelio--would not have been possible, not imaginable, without Ken Kronberg.
So that was a case of sly rebellion and opposition too--imagine the Labor Committee forced, through its then-front group the Lafayette Foundation, to hold a Heine Conference in 1981 or thereabouts! Keynoted by Ken, and also addressed by Mark Burdman....
Lyn had to swallow that, too--and ultimately to the point that you would have thought he was Sholem Aleichem's best friend and English translator.
Actually, to the point that shortly after Ken's death, Lyn wrote a review (of course he hadn't read it, as a quick content analysis of the review will show) of the recent book The Golem and the Wondrous Deeds of the Maharal of Prague by Yudi Rosenberg (trans. Curt Leviant) in which he--Lyn, not the Golem--attached to himself in some strange way the Workmen's Circle movement. Which struck this observer as odd, since the Workmen's Circle was a Jewish, Yiddish-language, leftwing social movement intended to keep alive Jewish identity among non-religious, leftist Jews. (Also a singularly inappropriate reference in a review of the book in question, which is a religoiusly oriented book--but of course, since Lyn didn't read it, he wouldn't know that.)
Needless to say, in real life, Lyn had nothing to do with the Workmen's Circle and never would have heard of it--except Ken Kronberg's family had been involved in it.
In a post at the time, I pointed out that Lyn's review, assimilating Jewish culture and Ken's family history to himself, was an attempt to rid himself of guilt in the matter of Ken's death.
But it is also exactly the phenomenon Borismaglev identifies--an uneducated Lyn being educated by his epigones.
However, now that Lyn has driven away or destroyed all the intellectuals, the young Jedi knights, of an earlier period, there's no one for him to steal ideas from.
I don't think, by the nature of the case, that the LYM can replace those people.
And the resulting resounding dearth of ideas couldn't be more obvious.

05-09-2008, 05:59 PM

socialistboomer

proxy wars My NCLC experience (1968 to very early January 1974) does not comport with the view that:

Quote:
The emergence of "intellectual heroes" other than Marx in the old Labor Committees took place after and not before LaRouche became the maniacal monster of Beyond Psychoanalysis and the Stalin Campaigner.

Rosa Luxemburg was regarded as an "intellectual hero" and repeatedly praised by Lyn, and given credit for her work. I recall Lyn writing a paper in which he described the LC membership as intellectually superior to the Bolshevik leadership, and second only to Luxemburg and her associates in terms of intellectual prowess (guffaw). The Accumulation of Capital was a basic text in 1968-69 (though I suspect that very few people worked their way through the entire book) and her pamphlet, The Mass Strike, The Party and The Trade Unions was quite important.
There were others who were not regarded as titans, but whose work was respected and cited by El Marco. Lawrence Kubie's Neurotic Distortion of the Creative Process is an example.
Trotsky, while never accorded the status of Marx or Luxemburg, was someone that many people read. He was certainly an intellectual and political hero to me, and to at least some other members of the organization. With the exception of Lyn and Carol, I was probably the member most influenced by Trotsky (I had not paid any attention to him before joining the LC), and almost certainly the member whose views most approached Trotskyism (I was basically a "Luxemburgist Trotskyist.) Now, I spent most of my LC stint outside of New York, and my experience may be not be the same as others. I can assure you that, in at least one local, Trotsky's works were read by many people, there were meetings at which discussions/presentations re Trotsky played a prominent role, and Trotsky was regarded as some sort of authority on any number of political matters.
And belated May Day greetings.

05-09-2008, 06:39 PM

xlcr4life How LaroucheNoCare Health plans worked its magic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by borismaglev
....Another example was Allen Salisbury's master stroke of arguing that the American System economists were superior to Marx (LaRouche's old and only real specialty). The genius of Allen's maneuver was in the timing:.... They didn't find out which of the two sides was driving them until they quit, or were expelled, or were killed.

Timing is everything as we will take a look at the circumstances surrounding the death of Allen Salsibury. Allen was always on the go and was very devoted to Lyn. So much that he used to tell people that he wished he never had to sleep so he could work around the clock. This whole idea of forcing oneself to stay up endlessly originated with Lyn in his many critiques of the LC membership for being too tired or sick to go around the clock to raise money and work for the cult. Lyn would make it clear that he was superiour to everyone because he could stay up all night and would do 20 hours of non stop work and be forced to go to sleep and eat.
It became one of those things you notice like collective pipe smoking where local NCs would try to stay up all night and meet with members after the LCerwent through a full day of freezing, or inhaling car fumes or working a boiler room. There is speculation on just how Lyn managed to stay up for days on end which was seen as some sign of his heroism and the weakness of the membership.
Well, we can't yet give you some details as those are still being checked out. What is interesting is a description of Lyn waking up in the AM by a member who witnessed this and emailed me. I can't vouch for this, however, I do remember the very high consumption of coffee many people have told me about over the years.
"...The whole day was spent in the room with the NEC meeting table that was off the kitchen. When XXXXX arrived, it would be loaded with coffee cups, over-flowing ashtrays, a big mess. But before cleaning it up, the first order of duty was to try to fix some breakfast for LHL. "Make sure Lyn eats something" was the dictum. Lyn rarely would eat anything. What he would do is stagger out of the bedroom and into the bathroom and then prowl around the table looking for left-over coffee. He would drink the dregs in every cup on the table. Sometimes he would swill down coffee dregs in which cigarettes butts had been stubbed out. That was always funny. Then he would stagger off to his study, where he stayed put for the rest of the day.
I had the opportunity once to enter the W 58th St Penthouse and saw the remnants of what is leftover when Lyn is there. There were tons of empty wine bottles and take out food littering the place. What shocked me at the time, and this was before I knew anything of Lyn's incredible Rheingau habit, the amount of empty bottles far suprassed by a significant magnitude what one would expect for a large gathering of people. I asked someone why the place was not cleaned after a week of boozing and the security person said that this was just one night. Later, when I was given the keys to go pick up wine I thought it was for a few bottles from an East Side store and I would just walk over . The order was for cases and cases of the hootch.
The descriptions I have recieved of Lyn in his habitat and his consumption of coffee made me wonder about caffiene intoxification.
" Caffeine intoxication has long been recognized as a discrete syndrome associated with excessive caffeine use. Caffeinism is an older term that has been used to describe the toxic effects of caffeine resulting from acute or chronic use. Caffeine intoxication is currently defined by a number of symptoms and clinical features that emerge in response to recent consumption of caffeine. Common features of caffeine intoxication include nervousness (anxiety), restlessness, excitement, insomnia, rambling flow of thought and speech, gastrointe stinal upset, tremors, tachycardia, diuresis, muscle twitching, periods of inexhaustibility, and psychomotor agitation."
Lyn was not receiving the same attention which Allen S was recieving. Many a person has told me that Lyn has had access to multiple MDs in the USA and Europe who finally convinced Lyn to cut down his coffee, booze and tobaco consumption because of health damage.
Now what about Allen Salsibury?
I had to wait until I heard this from several sources because it was so shocking. Allen began to have some abdominal pains and over time, was seen by a LaroucheNoCare MD who will remain nameless for now. Allen's widow and brother, who I think are still in can answer this for you. It was explained to me that while this scene was unfolding, there was virtually no testing done to obtain a diagnosis during a select period of time. The cause of this was that Allen S was "lactose intolerant". For people who do not know Allen S. he is an African American. So much so that we sent him to meet "The Godfather of Soul himself, James Brown at his house in South Carolina after we met him at an Airport I think. Allen continued to suffer until he went to another MD, I believe outside of the office and a far more serious illness was detected, which had nothing to do with the first view. It should be siad that the LC spent quite a bit of money paying Allen's medical coasts. The LC did for a few people. What is silly is that a competent medical health insurance plan could have covered everyone in the LC for the amount of money being spent out fo pocket for several of these illnesses which erupted over the years. But that is not how the LC thinks and that is not how a cult operates when Lyn is more devoted to paying a scam artist like Carpet than paying for health insurance.
Time and time again you look at what happened to many older LCers and find that simple preventive tests or medical checkups with real MDs were evaded for years and years until people got real sick. So sick that in Leesburg members spend more time at doctors offices and clinics than in the Sycolin office.
You have to think about how many LC members have had their physical lives cut short by decades of lacking in nutrition, sleep, checkups while having their minds and bodies in perpetual anxiety , fear and a never ending stress. After all of this physical destruction, Lyn picks up a weekly budget spread sheet like I have done and sees how you can cut 20 to 40 K out of the budget easy by getting rid of the Boomers.
The question is this. Would Allen Salsibury still be alive if saw a non LC MD at the time of his first symptoms instad of ebing told he has lactose intolerance?
Did he have to suffer the way he did by being in the LC?
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

05-09-2008, 06:49 PM

scrimscraw

Over and over

Quote:
Originally Posted by eaglebeak
However, now that Lyn has driven away or destroyed all the intellectuals, the young Jedi knights, of an earlier period, there's no one for him to steal ideas from.
I don't think, by the nature of the case, that the LYM can replace those people.
And the resulting resounding dearth of ideas couldn't be more obvious.

Perhaps this explains the endless LHL yardage in recent months/years that recapitulates the same chronology and grab-bag of "ideas" over and over. I can't imagine how anyone with an ounce of creativity could stand to restate the same worldview/theory over and over and over again. No doubt it is a function of the paranoia: obsessively hammering away at his narrative that purports to explain everything, in an effort to not only convince others but convince himself as well.
For the latest repetitions, see: Cesspool http://www.larouchepac.com/news/2008/05/06/sir-cedric-cesspools-empire.html and Tragedy http://www.larouchepac.com/news/2008/05/08/webcast-transcript-tragedy-and-hope.html.

05-09-2008, 07:59 PM

eaglebeak

Smell-o-Rama? Finally, at scrimscraw's suggestion, glanced at Lyn's Tragedy and Hope palaver from May 7.
Got to this sentence and just couldn't stop laughing:
I sat there at the television set, and watched this thing coming down in the last phases, and I saw something, that, from my nose, I could see the stink all over the place!
Didn't the old Mad Magazine tout something called Smell-o-Vision? I think, after so many years, Alfred E. Neuman has finally found his man.

05-09-2008, 07:59 PM

yamabkad

Quote:
Originally Posted by scrimscraw
Perhaps this explains the endless LHL yardage in recent months/years that recapitulates the same chronology and grab-bag of "ideas" over and over. I can't imagine how anyone with an ounce of creativity could stand to restate the same worldview/theory over and over and over again. No doubt it is a function of the paranoia: obsessively hammering away at his narrative that purports to explain everything, in an effort to not only convince others but convince himself as well.
For the latest repetitions, see: Cesspool and Tragedy.


The narrative hasn't changed much since the prison days, except for the practicalities of the the day to day hustle for imaginary influence. The most the LYM can do is try to fill some gaps and expand upon the more fixed themes, no sly rebellions for this crowd. (which ironically is what we were told was everything wrong the educational system, where the most say a graduate student could do is kiss the projected shadows in the cave of the professor's ass)
Lacking slyness is probably a good thing, since now the simpler rebellion is simply leaving, and maybe getting a systematic education in something so that they can write their own narrative.

05-09-2008, 08:01 PM

howie

localgreek: I still do not understand what attracts people to this man. And I still do not understand why more former members do not post to alert at least the young.
.......................
I more or less let the first query of this question go believing former members would have more succient insights into that question. My first comment is that by the very name of the organization joined, it makes a heck of a lot more sense to me why someone would join the "National Caucus of Labor Committees" than the "Larouche Youth Movement".
After that, I have read back through these factnet posts, back to a time when it wasn't populated by as many members from that time, back to before and just after Jeremiah Duggan's death and years before Ken Kronberg's death. Some relevant comments from exited LYMers, and then -- possibly still -- LYMers:
Comment #1: I myself am very affected by the experience and I think about it daily; It really was a turning point in my life, and In many ways I felt very connected to what it means being a human being - as opposed to the extremely superficial reality of popular youth culture today, of which I was a part. This sense og humanity is something I still cherish and is grateful for.
Oh. What the heck. Something I posted June 21st of last year:
II. I have gone through the FACTNet posts, sorting them in a most hap-hazard fashion, wanting to but not willing to prune out redundancies and meandering superficialities. One thing that I have done is to place a bunch of anecdotal explanations of life stories of why some posters entered, and why they exited, the Cult.
My cleanest observation is that Lyndon Larouche is a cynical operator indeed. I suppose a close look at "Beyond Psychology" tells all, but a rudimentary awareness of psychology, and marketing –which is after all psychology applied to commercial purposes– is sufficient. Here is a post from a LYMer to an exited LYMer:
Cynicism is difficult to combat. It often devolves into existentialism, or even nihilism. The fault dear Scott, lies not in our stars, but, in ourselves that we are underlings.
I am reminded of the fact that professionals who work with schizophrenic patients generally work for six-month stretches, then they are required to get away for six months. This is a standard procedure simply because the condition of schizophrenic patients has a powerful, detrimental effect on the therapist. I fear that if anyone were to spend too much time with you, Scott, they would suffer the same.
That is the craven meanness of a LaRouche follower. But you already know that if you ever pass by one of their card-table shrines, particularly during crunch-time as they come close to their deadlines for meeting quota lest they be haranged by their orderlings, and they shout out the projection "FASCIST!"
It is a cult that feeds off a sense of elitism, never mind they are serving a master, and they have special hatred for anyone who leaves the orbit of Lyndon Larouche… hence… that. It is also a cult of projection — anything they throw out at the outside world is really just an expression of covering up their hidden agenda ("FASCIST!"), pre-empting an attack against them ("FASCIST!"), or hiding their insecurities. When Tom says that "cynicism is difficult to combat", he is referring to his own cynicism — and his initial motivation for joining into this farce.
When I was a child, I thought like a child. Now I see things clearly. You are still thinking like a child.
You've caught yourself in a vicious cycle of pessimism and …
This whole thing gets to be tedious. The "vicious cycle of pessimism" (and more importantly cynicism) refers to Scott's comments about working at those card-tables and raising money for Larouche, and seeing that as the end instead of the means to an end — namely, um… Saving the World from Economic collapse… and… stuff.

Tediously haughty — and deluded on the significance of their hero to the outside world–, Steven and Tom and their obsession with "axioms":
The reason why LaRouche has a movement (* later to be lauded with a conference with Russian scientists, an interview on a French Radio station, and blather of that type) with many dedicated members (I think it numbers in the 3 digits, but I really would like a census audit of some sort) rests in the axioms.
Let's look at the axioms.
The paradigm:
1.Man is evil
2.Technological development is bad.
3.There are too many people.
LaRouche:
1.Man is good.
2.The measure of an idea is it's effect on the condition of man.
3.If an idea has the net effect of increasing man's power in the universe, as measured by a continual increase in the population of man, than it is a good idea.
My axiom:
Any discussion of LaRouche in which these axioms are not in some way the issue is useless.
The response proper:
You were given those axioms in countless "classes". You were taught these things while working 14-20 hours a day, and with low nutrition, while being told to turn away from your old friends and activities, and eventually were broken down in Beyond Psychoanalysis sessions where you confessed things that you were ashamed of. You eventually began reporting other people's "blocking" (disloyalty, questioning) to the regional leader. This mirrors the indoctrination camps of early Red China. Sometimes a person with an atonal monotonous voices would sit and talk to a group of you for over an hour–usually about God–in a calm soothing voice. This is hypnotism.
I lay off a few items here, because Scott went on to a few things that are relevant, but he did not personally experience, coming as they did from earlier Larouche years.
Continuing…
I don't believe any of those things.
I never did.
Neither do most people.
It's really not that big of a deal.
Responded with the very Larouchian: Wrong again. I know what people believe. I've been talking to them about axioms for years. The consistency of those axioms in the general population is stunning. You had the benefit of learning a little bit of LaRouche's economics, and you know better than to argue points that cannot be argued successfully with someone who knows better.
So the intrepid LYMers waited around to discuss these "axioms", while most of the posters at FACTNet entertained themselves with the down-to-earth matters of LaRouche and cultism. Looking through the posts, Steven gave himself away with more stupid axioms:
My old logic:
Democrats good. Republicans bad.
Religion bad. Agnosticism good.
Help people. Why? I dunno. Ok, so half-ass care.
U.S.A. is ****ing **** up, so to speak.
Dad, Mom, so what do I do now?
Text books boring. Lectures a drab. MTV is lame but I'll skim through the tube anyway.
Oh, and FoxNews knows the something about the news.
This "old logic" made sense before I was willing to challenge myself. In the first place, they were never to closely held by me. I was never passionate about anything except baseball and family, with the latter fading because there was no dinner table. I knew I did not have answers to important questions, unless they were on a scantron.
If you can, prove my old axioms to be truthful. And if you are like me, drop the axioms and live in accordance with principle, as much as possible.
And thus it is the cynicism of Larouche. The insecurities of youth, the late-adolescent crisis, the ennui and haunting insignificance of one individual — you. I note the admission that the importance of family was fading from this young soul's life due to the lack of the dinner table. I note also that he lacked the self-awareness when he haranged Scott when he shared his frustrated story of joining the Larouchies and knocking the admission that he was "at a cross-roads".
Later on, I believe by a different individual, we have the discussion from a Larouche follower for the not terribly original but certainly true enough revelation of what the Larouchie dropped out of — if I could find it off the bat I would post it, but it was to the effect of how Youth define and divide themselves by the Music they listen to, and how that is largely a Consumer Marketing trick, the realization apparently getting to this Larouchite — his identity had been defined for him. And if I may move a step or two further, The Beatles were a plot from British Intelligence to corrupt the youth and…
Create a pessimistic jaded public. Incapable of humming "Ode to Joy" and appreciating… JOY. But that is all beside the point. This Larouche follower is also a little unaware that that "Defined by the music they listen to" shifts and, in general, our society and culture tends to define themselves in the adult world by their Careers. A state of flux, remember.
I would like somebody that is NOT in a cult of Church, Fashion, Hollywood, Sport, Video Games, Magic the Gathering and other card games, Cars, Music to make a comment as well, it would be interesting.
Where the heck did "Magic the Gathering" come from? This is an individual looking around at a somewhat narrow strata of individuals — again, as I posted in the last Larouche-related post — he's in a college dorm and knows someone who spends maybe a bit too much time playing video games or Magic the Gathering… or perhaps himself at an earlier age, when he might otherwise have found spiritual fulfillment elsewhere.
From Larouche himownself, closing a system to keep the Larouchites away from being inflicted with criticism of the Guru in Chief.: "You've seen and heard them. They say things like LaRouche is a leader of a cult, or that he is anti-semitic, or some other vile epithet. Invariably, those repeating these lies, when challenged, can never back up what they say."
"These very same Foundations which run the slander mill against LaRouche are behind what is, in fact, the most dangerous cult in the world today. A cult of utopian military lunatics, typified by Zbigniew Brzezinski, Samuel Huntington, Henry Kissinger, or the current Undersecretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz. These lunatics are the real masterminds behind the attacks of September 11. Watching their power crumble under the weight of the collapsing financial system, their aim is to drive the world into a racist global religious war, that Huntington calls a "Clash of Civilization". They are the ones who engineered the 9/11 attacks on New York and Washington, then concocted the Osama bin Laden hoax, sending the U.S. military off to fight the "Clash of Civilization", and diverting attention from their own culpability in an ongoing coup against the interests of the United States. This powerful and crazed utopian cult is the greatest real security threat to our nation."
"That's who is spreading lies about LaRouche. You hear them repeated, often by people who don't know their source, but who would rather be overheard repeating these lies, because they think it will make them popular."
Elsewhere, and by various other Larouche-followers we receive more of the same, lining up "The Cult of Mass Opinion" against Larouche — I believe this in reaction to statements of Larouche's World Insignificance — that retort misses the point with a grouping who will glow about Larouche's meeting with a conference of Russian Scientists or a French radio broadcast or behind the scenes deal-making with Conyers, Clinton, or Kucinich — depending on the moment.
There was a poll taken in 1986, probably the height of American awareness of Larouche. Larouche received the lowest favorable rating ever, of one percent. And 80 percent of those polled responded with, more or less, "WHO?" The upshoot being that degrading Larouche is not a road to popularity, and it is incredulous that — say — Dennis King would think as much. But the age of the young LYMer is such that they are sorting out those weird vestiges of the definition of "popularity", and apparently passing the age demographics of MTV.

05-10-2008, 02:12 AM

boomer70

Guess who? "At this point in the present chapter of this report, the continuing presentation of the subject of the body of this report will now be divided, thereafter, firstly, among both the present and two additional chapters."
snarffle, snuffle

05-10-2008, 04:41 AM

scrimscraw

Say, whaaat?

Quote:
Originally Posted by boomer70
"At this point in the present chapter of this report, the continuing presentation of the subject of the body of this report will now be divided, thereafter, firstly, among both the present and two additional chapters."
snarffle, snuffle


That's what you end up with, I reckon, when you come down so hard on Editorial. :D

05-10-2008, 07:41 AM

xlcr4life "The Idiots Guide to the larouche cult"

Quote:
Originally Posted by howie
There was a poll taken in 1986, probably the height of American awareness of Larouche. Larouche received the lowest favorable rating ever, of one percent. And 80 percent of those polled responded with, more or less, "WHO?" The upshoot being that degrading Larouche is not a road to popularity, and it is incredulous that — say — Dennis King would think as much. But the age of the young LYMer is such that they are sorting out those weird vestiges of the definition of "popularity", and apparently passing the age demographics of MTV.

Howie, the WORST thing that could happen to Larouche and the cult is actually being put in the limelight because it all self destructs. When we set up the NDPC we ran nearly 2000 supporters for office and ran them in elections where the strategy was to go where there was no opposition or the local Dems gave up running. This strategy was from the lowest position of ward captain to Senator or Gov. With this approach you can get fairly high percentages of votes and use is a cheap parlor thrick to say that you are winning 48% of the vote, which I saw us do many a time. During the height of Lyn's TV shows we were running them every month and paying out millions for time slots.
The bad joke in this was that the more you put Lyn on TV the more silly we all looked. We never saw the support in the real world we thought we were supposed to get. After each broadcast we would congratulate and back slap each other over a job well done. Meanwhile, in the real world we were a bad runnning joke. Lyn gave pep talks to fundraisers saying that each broadcast was generating higher ratings and more call ins for info. This was supposed to create a condition where Lyn said he could go on TV virtually every week and use last week's show to raise the money to buy next week's show.
In real life we stole and borrowed millions as this never materialized. One very smart wag I was friendly with stated right off the bat that the "wins" in Illinois were worthless because all it means is that more people will see how crazy Lyn and the LC are in national and local press. That is pretty much how it turned out where 20 years later, Mark Fairchild is still at card table shrines and had few articles of the "Where is he now" type in Mid West newspapers.
The cheap parlor trick of Lyn is to then say that the TV shows are important because of who will be watching them, implying that Lyn "talks" to the elites this way to influence policy.
Does it sound nuts? Hell yeah. But that is how it works.
Here is something from the "Windy City dialogues" just held in LaroucheTown to show you how it works. The first person is a LYM who thinks he is in an org which is real and he proposes what would be a fairly sane plan.
"MALE: So, one thing I've been--[laughter] thinking about with respect to our deployment in editorial--and also probably> the War-Room and everybody else--is what Hector was saying about the "1932" idea, the 1892 up to now, and some of the people still having problems still wrapping their entire mind around it--I was trying to think of how our role in creating the kind of like battle equipment that people need to organize these grassroots and local leaders, like you're talking about. I kind of wanted to open up to any discussion of ideas that might involve this, so that we could start to get these kinds of things put together as packages, whether it be like small videos, or--. The one thing that was talked about a couple days ago, was the idea of having an HBPA page, which is much more coherent with something that people could have everything they need in file, they could print it out, it's ready to go, they have a short, 10-minute, 12-minute video that they could show at presentations, possibly like a powerpoint, so you have all these things together, so that somebody who's even perhaps not in our organization could
immediately go out and speak to 50 people."
So this young guy thinks he has a good idea. What is Lyn's response to this?

LYN: The problem is, that's not the way I think. That's not the way I think. Worst of all, don't let a perceived popular opinion shape your judgment--number 1. Don't be a populist. The way I think, is, I want to know what the truth is. I don't want to know what somebody's opinion is. I'll deal with should I bother starting from there?

Damn right that is not the way Lyn thinks. Lyn knows that he is running a cult of personality, not something which is supposed to accomplish anything except proclaim him the saviour from the New Dark Ages.
What is going on here is that we have a LYM which was told by Lyn several weeks ago about how eeeevil Congressman Barnie Frank is for telling the LYM to go take a hike when they perstered him. The cult only has Lyn's message on this and has not a clue that today in the Congress, the bill for housing and mortgage relief sponsored by Barnie Frank and others passed a vote and is on the way to the next level of legislation.
Lyn uses another cheap parlor tirck right before your eyes to now make that no longer an issue and have the LYM revolve around him and not the mechanics of a housing bill.
This is from the same LaroucheTown meeting and see how the LYM and LYMettes fall for the cheap parlor trick. Just follow this and see what Lyn does.
"Now, we're in a period in which we have to understand the total situation, and in order to understand the total situation we're in, you have to break from the idea of sense-certainty in the ordinary sense. You'll never understand it. If you're trying to interpret news reports and so forth, you miss it. You'll miss it all the time. For example, most of the way through this process, you remember on the 25th of July last year, I said, flatly, which I knew with certainty, that the system was finished, now. And within two days, it began to manifest itself in what was called by some people, the "housing bubble crisis"; or the subprime mortgage crisis. Which it was not. As I said at the point, there was never a "subprime mortgage crisis": That's simply a lie invented by various people to avoid dealing with the process. the big issue is, is two things: First of all, to understand that there is an empire, it's called the British Empire, and that since the developments between Aug. 15th, 1971 and establishment of the oil crisis which created the Amsterdam spot market, there's been a fundamental change in the world. Now, in understanding this kind of thing,have to understand history. Now, most people today are stupid when it comes to history--because they don't know what history is, because they don't believe in the nature of the human being. They think that the human being is like an animal, and they show that in the way they behave--that is, in their dumbness, in their stupid opinions. They don't recognize that there's a fundamental difference between mana and the best, which comes up now, and
will come up more and more as we deal with the Riemannian implications, of Riemann's later works. Because now you realize that the senses, such as sight and hearing primarily, are not sources of knowledge. They're sources of information, but not knowledge. And the crucial example of this, in all modern science, is in Kepler's {Harmonies}. Because, whereas Kepler, following Cusa's line, defined gravitation as a process, that the Earth's orbit as a process as being transfinite, ontologically transfinite, that he did not give a calculation for
gravitation--and could not. The only thing he could give, is equal time/equal arcs. So, how'd he get that? The {New Astronomy} relies chiefly on references to information, evidence, based on sight, and sight is not certainty: Sight is an instrumentation. Hearing is an instrumentation. Sight is an instrumentation. Smell, unfortunately, is also an instrumentation. Good for dogs, but not too much good for human beings: It forces them to bathe.
[laughter]
GERRY: But apparently not Al Gore. We got this report in this woman said that for years, the guy never bathed. The quote was, "Did you ever smell a buffalo?"
LYN: [laughing] I think we ought to transmit that information to Bill Clinton and ask him for his reaction. [laughter] Did he smell it coming?"

What you just read was the sleigh if hand to now tell the yutes that there really is no sub prime mortgage or foreclosure problem and how he never said there was one! The problem is not liquidity in lending because that would imply that there should be lobbying for Democrat Barney Frank's bill to over ride a Bush veto and to make it as consumer friendly as possible. You are not in the LYM to solve a damn thing. In the space of one paragraph, Lyn has just wiped out any reality for the poor guy I mentioned earlier and now takes the isssue back to an apocalyptic, end of the world economy which only he can stop. Lyn tells you right away that you can't rely on your eyes reading or your ears hearing anythig which is contrary from him because of the superiority of you being trained by him.
As long as there is no one to challenege this lunacy, the cult continues, very small, but continues. What makes Lyn so angry about the web is that there was no way you could do these sort of explanations because of physical limitations in the past.
That is how it works LYM and LYMettes.
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

05-10-2008, 05:18 PM

earnest_one

Circuits Crossed "At this point in the present chapter of this report, the continuing presentation of the subject of the body of this report will now be divided, thereafter, firstly, among both the present and two additional chapters."
Brilliant! Proof than man is NOT a machine. The LIM Generator has lost. Time to move on to the LIM-ette Generator.
We need a (young) Beast Woman. Beast Man is too far out, man.

05-10-2008, 09:25 PM

localgreek

elections??

Quote:
Originally Posted by borismaglev
eOne-by-one, the young Jedi Knights were ground up, either expelled (Bob Dillon, Carol White, Chris White) or mentally destroyed (Ed and Nancy Spannaus), killed (Dick Sober, Allen Salisbury, Ken Kronberg), or grew up and left the fantasy world of Star Wars (Gus Axios, Uwe von Parpart, Nick Syvriotis, Bob Zubrin, Moe Levitt, Christine Berl, Khushro Ghandi, Steve Bardwell, David Goldman, Mel Klenetski, Fernando Quijano, Jose Torres and many others whose names I don't recall right now).
What our Darth Vader/Lyndon LaRouche is left with right now is Tony Papert, the last remaining of the original young Jedi Knights that counts. He is LaRouche's sole Sith Apprentice (Nancy Spannaus would like to think of herself as one but it won't work: in Darth Vader mind, Nancy is a piece of toilet paper to be used and thrown away). Some people imagine that Helga is LaRouche's Sith Apprentice. Not true: LaRouche will never forgive Helga's lesbian betrayal of him with an East German female athlete many years ago. And then, of course, LaRouche has R2D2 and 3CPO: Paul Goldstein and Jeff Steinberg.
The point of the above Star Wars parable is that when LaRouche was a mature 45-46 years old discovered that he had unusual abilities in attracting the attention of gifted and idealistic and inexperienced young people. It took a serious intellectual effort on his part to achieve this, because he was dealing with an intellectually sophisticated and discerning (albeit emotionally young and inexperienced) audience. Even so, the audience back then was interested only in a Marxist-shaped narrative, for which Lyn Marcus was exceptionally well qualified. The narrative of the group shifted over the years away from Marxism and LaRouche lost the edge of authority he had as a result of his mastery of Marxism. Some young Jedi Knights introduced American System economics (Allen Salisbury), Riemann and Cantor (Uwe Parpart), Plato (Parpart and Syvriotis), Shakespeare (Ken Kronberg), Vernasdky (Jonathan Tennebaum). This created tremendous intellectual insecurities in LaRouche and he dealt with these inseucurities by means of a perpetual reign of psychological terror. Every single one of those young Jedi Knights who had introduced post-Marxist narratives is now out, expelled, or resigned or dead.
The Last of the young Jedi Knights to depart was Ken Kronberg. He made his exit in the grand Jedi tradition: using his own death to destroy the evil of the Dark Side. Ken has earned the place of honor among his fellow Jedi Knights, their gratitude and their solemn salute.
LaRouche/Darth Vader got rid of these young Jedis but he kept a bowdlerized version of their narrative. To sustain his control over the group, he increasingly required less and less educated and intelligent members. Hence his singular emphasis on recruiting the "neurologically impaired," as he once put it.
As you think about your friend who was victimized by the cult, keep this in mind: LaRouche has been targetting for recruitment people who already are "neurologically impaired" in some way or another. Forty years ago, it was easier for him to target and destroy "neurologically" healthy people. Now, he can only attract and victimize those who are already "neurologically impaired" prior to joining his enterprise.

====================
Localgreek: the people connected to us went into this cult in the early to mid-seventies. I know of four individuals.
A question arises: did these Jedis ever discuss the possibility of elections? In every single organization, committee, party, union, and association that I have ever been involved in, the president or the chairman or the leader was never there for life. There were elections; the leadership was contested; there were votes.
This fact alone is evidence that what we had here was a cult of personality, an authoritarian Stalinist/Maoist sort of leader.
Yet, Larouche must be very talented indeed; for think of it: here is a man who has never put in an honest day's work and yet he has managed to have slaves, servants, good food, good wine, good ambiance, and a long life--and he has not paid anything for the broken lives he is responsible for. Now what is his talent, really? Because I don't see it at all.
During the 79s when I watched him on TV, I found him utterly repugnant. I can still hear his phrase: The Queen pushes dope! She's dope pusher!
There was something strangely unhealthy about him when I observed him. Yet, the man must have some brilliance for so many people to get taken in.

05-10-2008, 09:41 PM

scrimscraw

Quote:
Originally Posted by localgreek
During the 79s when I watched him on TV, I found him utterly repugnant. I can still hear his phrase: The Queen pushes dope! She's dope pusher!
There was something strangely unhealthy about him when I observed him. Yet, the man must have some brilliance for so many people to get taken in.

I think the attraction is his utter certainty. He never appears to doubt himself and he spends all his time asserting that he is right. That has a kind of attraction for certain individuals who doubt their own take on things. It enables them to become certain by second-hand.

05-10-2008, 10:19 PM

Hank

It seems the intellectual pretensions of Larouche and associates are just that.
In years past I have occasionally tried to actually read through some "scholarly" article on art, philosophy, etc from Fidelio usually.
I once spent over an hour trying to decipher one because the subject interested me. I finally decided it was pointless.
If I diagrammed some of the sentences I could come up with the meaning, usually a quite simple one. But all that high-falutin syntax sounds so much more "eddicated" for those who don't really get it, who don't read much or know how to write well, themselves.
My most flattering analysis was that maybe it had been poorly translated from the German. These articles were not written by Larouche either. And one supposes they had been proofread and edited for publication.
Also the "news" articles I tried to read were upsetting at first. They fit the definition of "yellow journalism", not objective news reporting.
When I would point this out to my cousin, he just shrugged it off. I now see that he must have been too far gone to realize it. Or care. Arguing points with him was pointless, it would just lead to a fight, and he has a temper. It got so I only communicated with him on personal matters, high school, etc that we had in common from the past. That was helpful to me.
And yet at times, espec in the last ten years, I remember conversations about economics, corporations etc that I kind of agreed with. I also agreed with him about Bush, etc. But now I see the Org just morphed with the times to appeal to another group of young people...

05-10-2008, 10:48 PM

boomer70

Quote:
Originally Posted by localgreek
A question arises: did these Jedis ever discuss the possibility of elections? In every single organization, committee, party, union, and association that I have ever been involved in, the president or the chairman or the leader was never there for life. There were elections; the leadership was contested; there were votes.

There was a faction fight that included this issue, around 1974. Minions like Paul Goldstein repressed it ruthlessly, not realizing it would seem that in so doing they were destroying themselves.

05-11-2008, 01:02 AM

xlcr4life

Quote:
Originally Posted by boomer70
There was a faction fight that included this issue, around 1974. Minions like Paul Goldstein repressed it ruthlessly, not realizing it would seem that in so doing they were destroying themselves.

My first ICLC conference was in NYC in the late 1970s. My naivety and hope that this was a real org blinded my sense to what kind of cult/charade was going on. The LC line was that during the "Internal" was where one would see policy arguements back and forth lik ein the old days. During lunch after an "Internal" meeting, the members I was with joked about how the whole thing blew and was just a formality to give standing ovations to Lyn.
What they were referrring to was a new pamphlet which was a budget for the USLP and ICLC world wide operations. If you looked at it it seemed like a budget and had income / expense tables, graphs and some issues to vote on. All it did was eliminate the whole point of having an org as Lyn ran this like a Stalin show trial. The only thing I can even remotely remember someone disagreeing with was Harley objecting to placing his then region Atlanta into the "Western" part of the US map in the Pamphlet.
That Internal was where I first heard pleas from female LCers about having babies. I had no idea at the time what this was all about as far as the abortion policy. Every other conference after that was basically run with the whole point being Lyn's Apocalypso dancing his way to the White House and why it was allright to beg, borrow and steal (sometimes all at once) from your contacts to do this. I can't recall a single conference or any meeting ever which could constitute a semblence of a legitly run org. Think mafia + cult and you will understand all of this.
Back in the 1970s we had many USLP (US Labor Party) offices around the country and each office was then incorporated into a larger geographical area. Harley tried to argue with Lyn that Atalanta was in the South and not in the West with the LA office. Harley lost and that should have prompted me to leave the whole idiotic lunacy at the time. But alas, I too was a yute.
In honor of Mother's day, I suggest the LYM and LYMettes honor their mother by taking their rebate money and going back home . I can't forget one student blogger who wrote that if you want to prevent your life from being wasted in a cult like the LYM, just ask for your mother's opnion. Wow, and that student never read any of the Beyond Psych lit.
If poor old Phil l R listened to his mother 4 decades ago, he could have been either a noted Rabbinical scholar or an incredible PHD professor teaching at an Ivy League level university with a few million in the bank instead of Lyn's bit*h. His kids would have been his own DNA instead of LYM and LYMette stand ins.

xlcr4life@hotmail.com

05-11-2008, 01:10 AM

localgreek

Quote:
Originally Posted by borismaglev
There were elections until 1974. After that for a couple of years, there was a single slate "proposed" by LaRouche. You voted "yes" or you voted "no" and quit. A while later, even that pretense at election was dropped. The only special talent that LaRouche has is to zero-in and manipulate people's psychological need for a father figure. The "Darth Vader" analogy is apt only if you imagine yourself to be Luke Skywalker in search of a missing and mysterious father figure (Darth/Dark/Dear Vader/Father). In my experience, only people with father problems were attacted to LaRouche. Seek the answers to your questions not in the abilities of LaRouche but in the vulnerabilities of your friends.

=====================================
Localgreek: I do believe that the father problem could be important; you recall I mentioned that one of the people I knew saw a shrink and he came up with this. Our relation also had a difficult father situation. However, this sort of quest for an accepting benevolent father is all understandable in someone who is young, in their 20s; however, as the years go by, we all generally begin to understand our parents, their lives, their struggles, their weaknesses, their strengths, their generosities, their selfishness, and whatever else. So, then a person eventually matures and recognizes that the wound came for specific reasons, and that helps to heal the wound, and by then the person should understand that a Larouche, or whatever other father figure is adopted, is just that. The person should then grow up, as it were. And it is this which I cannot understand--that there seems to be some kind of psychological arrestd development for the persons are not seeing this.
But that is why I asked about medications, and the breaking of the person, because then it becomes very serious. You know, there was a small cult some 40 miles from where I live; it was in a rural setting, far from everyone. The cult leader got his handful of slaves to hurt themselves physically so badly I cannot even describe it here without feeling ill.
I do not understand why the boomers have not left by now. YOu say they are neurologically impaired. They were not thus when they went in during the 70s. Anyhow, how many of them are there, these boomers?

05-11-2008, 06:14 AM

scrimscraw

Why the boomers have not left (perhaps)....

Quote:
Originally Posted by localgreek
I do not understand why the boomers have not left by now. You say they are neurologically impaired. They were not thus when they went in during the 70s.

I think that in any organization that promotes ideals as its reason to exist, members who are considering leaving are faced with the dilemma of apparently abandoning those ideals by leaving. Even if the org itself is, for all intents and purposes, hypocritically betraying its stated ideals, the individual's threshhold is that he or she doesn't want to overtly turn their back on those ideals. If the org's stated goal is defined as "saving humanity" or "enlightening" its members, dropping out of the org becomes an act of abandoning those goals in front of one's fellow members. This is a very awkward, painful, or shameful thing for many people to do.
So, I think there is a tremendous pressure, within the boomers themselves and within the LYMers, to "soldier on," and "try to do the right thing," even if the realization is dawning that the whole org's system is not working.
I say this from my experience with other orgs, not with LC (of which I've not been a direct member.) Cults don't need drugs or violence to perpetuate themselves (though those have sometimes been used), they need idealistic members who are simply unwilling to give up (yet) on their dream that they are/have been making the world a better place. OR, in a few instances, they need people in leadership positions who have found a certain warped satisfaction in ordering others around or maintaining their own status as big frogs in small ponds. I suspect that the boomers on the NEC are the latter. The boomers still manning the card table shrines are, sadly, the former.

05-11-2008, 04:34 PM

eaglebeak

Ministry of Fear Another reason for not leaving is fear--fear of the outside world, fear of being unable to find a job or take care of oneself, fear of the unknown, fear of the terrible things Lyn et al. will say about you once you've left, and above all, fear of confronting the fact that you spent decades giving all you had to an organization and a man that turned out to have...
Feet of Clay.
On an infinitely smaller scale, it is the experience of those who left--or didn't leave--the Communist Party USA after its heyday in the '30s.
The people who found it easier to leave the Labor Committee were those who had made the transition from thinking of Lyn as God to thinking of God as God--that's why so many people who'd "gotten religion" wound up leaving (Lyn to God: "The Universe isn't big enough for the two of us") or who had gone back to the religion of their youth--or who had, in some vanishingly small number of cases, never stopped being religious.
By the way--ever wonder why Barbara Boyd started wearing a cross around her neck a few years ago? I know I do.
Many people in the org have severed all ties with their families, or have very uneasy relationships with their families, thanks to Lyn and his marvelous insights in Beyond Pscyhoanalysis--and thanks also to the actual, explicit demands of the leadership that people dump their families--so to quit means to be alone in a hostile world (or rather, a world that is perceived to be hostile).
Some have ditched their spouses at the org's say-so. Some have even abandoned their children for the org. Many, many have aborted their children for the org. They have burned a lot of bridges, these people.
Many people quit school all those years ago, in a burst of heady euphoria at joining the org, and therefore are unsure whether they have marketable skills. Many, though advanced in years, will not be employable at particularly high levels.
Many are not well--after all, they are no longer young--so are not sure how that will affect fulltime employment. Better to live in quasi-communal arrangements (here I'm speaking mainly of the single Boomer members) at a very low standard of living, working sporadically, than to be all by yourself.
I absolutely agree that the self-aggrandizing thing--"Don't get in my way, I'm on a mission from God!"--is a huge factor in keeping people in.
But fear is also a huge one, and it has been played on like an old piano by Lyn and his immediate gang, to terrify people into staying. This is much of the purpose of the constant putdowns of the outside world, of outside experts, of anyone with a college degree, of any writers or thinkers on any topic outside the charmed circle of the org.
Members feel safe only in that tiny charmed circle, even if they think the politics is nuts and they're practically starving, because after 30 years or so, they truly believe that what's Out There is dangerous and vile.
In short, although people in the org do have some modicum of free will left, most of them have been brainwashed over many, many years. Because it really is a cult.

05-11-2008, 05:18 PM

socialistboomer

Ministry of Fear [quote=eaglebeak
On an infinitely smaller scale, it is the experience of those who left--or didn't leave--the Communist Party USA after its heyday in the '30s.
This is an important point, and reflects the fact that people in groups that are not cultish can face situations that are in many ways similar to those of members of "cults."
The considerations mentioned by eaglebeak did not apply to me (I left in 1974, and boomers happened to be younger) and don't think they applied to most people who left around that time, when the NCLC transformed itself from a socialist sect to bonkerism.
Lyn was astutely aware of the importance of organizational/social identity as central to people's conception of themselves. The primary source of my identity was being an LC member. When I left, my political views had not changed. I was a Marcusite without Marcus. I viewed Lyn and the organization as having gone nuts. So I was left with earlier NCLC politics, did not see an alternative organizationally, and was no longer participating in what I believed was building a socialist movement in the United States. I just felt lost. While I was physically afraid of what the group might do to me, and lost a number of friends, that was not the hard part.
The difficulty was that I still had my organizationally-related identity, and was no longer connected to either the NCLC or any other avenue to actualize my self-conception.
Lyn, in his writings and remarks about Gerry Healy and the British Socialist Labour League, analyzed that organization as a social formation. Having denounced it, it didn't take him all that long to use it as a model -- thuggery, financial demands on members, endless activity resulting in burnout or decortification, total obeisance on the part of the membership.
Ah, but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now.

05-12-2008, 02:46 PM

xlcr4life

In the LC, one of the favorite movies to go see was "The Sting". There is something pretty funny about that in retrospect because the lesson to be learned in that movie is that Scam and Bunko artists themselves get stung by better scam and bunko artists who have an indepth knowlege of how the Mark thinks. Lyn knows what certain naive young people WANT to believe when they join the LC and uses that for the lifetime of the member, until they are used up. Well, so do the scam artists who know exactly what Lyn, Jeff and Paul want to think.
After leaving this Bizarro world I began to hear about just how much money Lyn and security were paying to various "consultants" who ended up being scam artists who outbunked Lyn's bunko with their own carefully crafted bunko.
Read this court doc to get an idea of just how elaborate the scam was and how to get a cult madman to take 13 million dollars of the members efforts and give it away to them over the years.

http://lyndonlarouchewatch.org/larouche-cia3.pdf
There is so much more of this to go over that I hope many of you who know of this can chime in. Read this from King to get a taste of this:
"May 9: The feverish imagination of Roy Frankhouser (so-called classified information presented by LaRouche in Boston federal court, 1987). Over a period of almost ten years, the notorious Klansman Frankhouser presented himself to the LaRouchians as a trusted CIA contract employee in order to get money out of them. When LaRouche and several aides were on trial in Boston federal court on charges of credit card fraud and obstruction of justice, they submitted "under seal" a proffer supposedly containing classified information about their relationship to the CIA by way of Frankhouser. The more naive of the LaRouchians were shocked when DOJ attorneys promptly made the document public in spite of LaRouche's claim that the contents were top secret. Here we see a detailed account of the absurd stories Frankhouser made up for his manipulative purposes. By the time the proffer was filed, high-level LaRouchians were probably already aware that Frankhouser had scammed them--but they decided to profit from their own victimization by using the record of their communications with Frankhouser and his associates to construct a "CIA defense" and to throw dust in the eyes of the jury. To this end they also included certain information about their private intelligence operations and dealings with Reagan administration officials that occurred independently of Frankhouser. These latter items, however, constituted only a "limited hangout"--no mention was made of the LaRouche organization's actual dealings with a number of former CIA bureaucrats, CIA contract agents and other individuals from the spook world in the U.S., Europe and Latin America (some of the missing names are included in Chapter 22 of Lyndon LaRouche and the New American Fascism). Apparently LaRouche was trying to blackmail the CIA into rescuing him from his legal problems, but it didn't work. Note: the appendix to the proffer naming former retired CIA official E. Henry Knoche as "Mister Ed," Frankhouser's control officer, should be regarded as yet another fabrication--the Klansman's own cronies testified in court that Mister Ed never existed."
'Mr Ed"? We have a TV horse comedy from the 1950s leading a couple of Jacka*ses in the LC into a multi year hallucination in which ceveral people recieved millions of dollars over the years. To this day "Carpet" may still be getting a few grand to keep Lyn's delusions going while Jeff says "OK, Yes boss, you are right Lyn" yes Lyn, you were the first Lyn".

xlcr4life@hotmail.com

05-12-2008, 04:49 PM

localgreek

cheating, stealing, fraud?? Is there anyone out there who would be willing to explain to me just how the stealing, and the credit card fraud took place? I am woefully ignorant of how this works.
Also, can anyone tell me WHERE the organization is getting money from these days? Afterall, there ar still folks on the payroll of the organization.
Please outline this in very layman's language. I don't know how to defraud my credit card company; not that I wish to start, mind you, I just want to know how the members did this. Thank you for all the illuminating posts.

05-12-2008, 10:23 PM

eaglebeak

A Bronx Cheer for Lyndon LaRouche With apologies to Gene Weingarten, and heavy cribbing from his column on the last page of the Washington Post magazine for Sunday, May 11.
In it, Weingarten reminisces about his alma mater, the Bronx High School of Science, and his class, the class of 1968.
Among other things, Weingarten lists all the reasons he won't be attending his 40th reunion.
I excerpt from two of them:
REASON 2: If my goal was to feel like a complete failure, it would be cheaper and easier to go to a bad neighborhood, consume a half-gallon of fortified wine from a bottle in a bag, and pass out in the gutter. When I went there, Bronx Science was the most intellectually exclusive, snobbish public school in the country. Actual true fact: If it were a country, Bronx Science would rank 23rd in the world in the number of Nobel laureates it has produced, tied with Spain. I have not kept track of the achievements of my particular class, but I have no doubt that you have among you brain surgeons, rocket scientists, ….
REASON 5: If I wanted to spend six hours among people with exactly my background and upbringing and appearance, I would sit home alone and tell myself jokes. Let's just say that the Bronx Science administrators, circa 1968, did not overly concern themselves with establishing a diverse student body. I am right now looking at an alphabetized list of the 900 kids in my senior class. Here is a verbatim selection from the R's, skipping no names: "Rosen, Rosenberg, Rosenberg, Rosenberg, Rosenbloom, Rosenfeld, Rosenheck, Rosenkrantz, Rosenow, Rosenthal, Rosenwasser, Rosenzweig." Here's a verbatim selection from the G's: "Gold, Gold, Gold, Gold, Goldberg, Goldberg, Goldberg, Goldes, Goldfarb, Goldfarb, Goldfield, Goldfluss, Goldman, Goldray, Goldsmith, Goldstein, Goldstein." And finally, from the S's: "Shapiro, Shapiro, Shapiro, Shapiro, Shapiro, Shapiro." (I see there is also someone named "Hoover Mountcastle." How he got in there, I'll never know.)
The reason this attracted my attention is that Ken Kronberg was a graduate of Bronx Science, as was his older brother.
Ken graduated from Bronx Science in 1964, having just turned 16 (he turned 16 in April, graduated in May or June).
From there he headed out to Santa Fe, New Mexico, for his freshman year (at 16!) at St. John's College, Santa Fe campus.
I mention this because I think it helps to understand why Lyn was afraid of Ken—Lyn, who had such a hard time with Euclid in 9th grade. Lyn, who flunked his freshman year at Northeastern not once, but twice. Lyn, who never did get his degree, and spent the rest of his long life attacking anyone who had.
I also think that the list of names Weingarten provides—all those Rosenbergs, all those Shapiros—that is, all those Jews—sheds some light on Lyn's inveterate hostility to Ken.
Ken was too smart, too Jewish, for Lyn.
Lyn hates and fears the intelligent, the well-educated (and, as we all know, the Jewish. Also the British.)
Sure, several other Labor Committee members went to Bronx Science, including the less than redoubtable Dr. Ned Rosinsky—but somehow, I think that to Lyn, Ken epitomized the too smart, the too Jewish, the too well educated.
And I think it's important for people to understand what a tremendously gifted, promising boy Ken was, before, at the tender age of 22, he met up with L. Marcus and the "NCLC."

05-13-2008, 02:52 AM

candor

On larouchepac is an excerpt from LaRoache's latest webcast, an excerpt in which LaR addresses a fake question about Obama. It is a golden example of how LaR condemns himself out of his own mouth, as others have said on FACTnet. To wit: Obama is an Elmer Gantry who promises everything while doing nothing (hmm), that he has what amounts to a cult following (ya don't say), and that people are all about money. I don't recall all the rest, but it is a presently compelling and clinical case replete with competent, relevant evidence.
Funny too how LaR mentions the book Elmer Gantry but waxes approvingly about the film version. Not surprising, given what we know about his meagre educational attainments and even less stunning range of intellect.

05-13-2008, 06:33 AM

‘‘larouchetruth'''

The Big Break of 1973 I have been meaning to add my few cents to one element of recent discussion that I have found extremely interesting and productive, namely, what LaRouche was to those of us who joined in the relatively early days, and how he changed. I want to begin by reposting a multi-part post I made last August on just this point, which ended with a question that I never returned to answer, though the answer was obvious enough to all old-timers. So, here is the verbatim original post, entitled:
The Great Divide: What Pushed LaRouche Over the Edge between 1972 and 1974?
Eaglebeak's discussion of LaRouche's isolation since 1974, combined with my own knowledge, and what I've heard over the years from others, provokes a really key question. I want to throw out the question, and then later, perhaps tomorrow, provide the answer that I find compelling, which if correct would unravel in a profound way that I, at least, have never heard suggested before, the real driving force in what LaRouche has become in the last 35 years.
I have not previously thought of LaRouche as being cut off from almost all contact with anyone but a tiny handful of brownnosers for the past 33 years, in quite the way he (Eaglebeak) lays it out. But I did, more than once, ask myself, why doesn't he come in to the office occasionally. Certainly unscheduled visits couldn't be security risks. It takes foreknowledge and lots of time to plan professional hits. It never made any sense.
What Eaglebeak added that I was not aware of, is how Lyn responds to criticism in private, that he acts actually frightened, disoriented. If true, that's quite something. Not, to put it mildly, a match to his persona.
But I do not believe that Eaglebeak is correct in saying that he was always like this. I can't comment on whether he sponged on his partner "in the old days" and hung out in his apartment, nor is it clear which years "the old days" covers. What I do know, and some of this comes from first hand stories from other, older exers at the ex-member gatherings held once a year at Ken and Janet M.'s house in Jersey for a number of Labor Day weekends in the '90s, is that LaRouche prior to 1973 did not hide himself the way he did post 1974, members could sometimes go back with him to his apartment in the East Village after one of his classes or a conference speech, even have a meal with him, he was relatively accessible, and of course, he kept giving his 6-session classes on Marxian economics, which, curiously, completely stopped over the same time period (I just thought of that one). In fact, that course was crucial to expanding the early followership, especially in New York, Philadelphia, Baltimore and Boston.
And, equally relevant, there was an internal life in the organization, one could disagree with him in a meeting, even strongly so, and argue one's case, and he would argue back, but he really would argue, unlike what Eaglebeak reports for later years. And there was no sense of disgrace, or fear, to do so. The internal terror of appearing to differ from the latest "line" that LaRouche put out, was absent. LaRouche was not the God relative to us peons, that he shortly became by 1975, neither in our minds, nor in his own mind.
Yet, by 1975, he had become our God. In order to appreciate the issue, which I believe is really central to advancing our understanding of him—and us—I want to review some of the predicates of that. We all remember the basic chronology: Operation Mop Up was launched in March, 1973, and went on for about 4 months until it was abruptly stopped, in the alleged service of stopping the Communist Party from disrupting our NUWRO events. Around the same time, several brave members risked their lives to organize some genuine ghetto gang members, with some apparent initial success.
But the most ominous development was the aftermath of Lyn's trip to Europe, when he announced he had assembled the leaders of our fledgling European group, mainly from Germany, Italy, France and Sweden, I believe, for a weekend-long "session," at which he had successfully put them through an intense psychological experience and by the end, had, in this crucible, allegedly helped them make tremendous leaps of psychological understanding and strength, based on LaRouche tearing down their old "selves" and helping them forge new ones (the specifics are fuzzy on what we were told actually happened, but this is close enough). It was called the "Munchrat experience" or something close to that, being held in a city by that name. The moment he returned, he a) promised that he would do the same with the members of the NEC and NC, and they would propagate it to the broader membership. And b) he began a series of writings, the first several mimeographed, subsequent ones appearing in Campaigners culminating by the end of the year or the beginning of 1974, with Beyond Psychoanalysis, the first of which, I believe, was "Mother's Fears."
I don't propose to take the time here to say much about the specifics. LYMers, the Campaigners are available on your own website, I imagine somebody still has the old mimeographed items, but they're hardly accessible. The simple gist of the series was (and others, feel free to fill in what I've forgotten or overlooked) a) everyone was "mother dominated," which made them impotent, both politically and sexually (not that they couldn't necessarily get it up physically, but that even if they could, the sex they experienced was degraded), b) people needed to "confront" these internalized fears put there by our mothers in order to become liberated from their debilitating influence, c) the Latin "macho" was the poster child for the effect of this mother domination in creating a sexist, but inwardly insecure, impotent, person, and d) that that inner self was labeled as "little me," the true identity that was too timid and insecure to face the awesome responsibility that history required of our tiny group to lead humanity through the present crisis.
I don't recall if this next came from LaRouche in his writings, or as repeated by his minions—I recall hearing it as coming from Tony P in a New York LC meeting, the charge that one was "blocking"—the perfect weapon for someone one or more rungs up the leadership food chain than you were, to put you down in a way that left you no defense. It was perfect. It no longer mattered what anyone said, if it disagreed with something coming down from leadership. Your argument could be simply ignored because you were "blocking." This, of course, only worked down, not up. No one could get away with charging someone above them on the leadership food chain with blocking. That would be a contradiction, and would imply that the leadership food chain was not an accurate reflection of the relative level to which each person had progressed in his ability to "potently" follow LaRouche's latest dictum. So, it became a self-fulfilling and self-perpetuating bit of trickery. All authority, all wisdom, suddenly flowed in one direction, down from the top, from Lyn through the NEC to the NC, to the lowly member.
And it all happened very quickly. And it worked like a charm, because a) who among us wasn't insecure about his sexual potency, especially if someone who "obviously" was ten-times more potent than we were was telling us we were impotent, b) he held out the (illusory) promise that "help was on the way," just hold a little longer, and Lyn will reproduce the Munchrat process here, and pretty soon, you'll all be way more potent than you are now.
Now, overlaid on that was the following sequence of events: I believe that Rockefeller was just starting to be singled out as the leader of the enemy side. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe that we had such a defined, personified, feindbild (picture of the enemy) prior to that. We had the Fraser frameup case in 1969-70, then the monetary crisis and ERP of 1971, then the anti-Zero Growth, Club of Rome campaign of 1972, as our leading focuses for activities, in addition to fighting for "left hegemony" in what remained of the anti-war and left ferment of the country. Secondly, in the fall of 1973, we were told that one of our leading Greek members in Europe had been being brainwashed in East Germany over a period of months by the Stasi, acting on Soviet orders, until LaRouche discovered it, and rescued the member, whose name I am forgetting. As I recollect, this coincided, for the first time, in identifying the Soviet Union as specifically out to "get" LaRouche, seeing him as an enemy, I guess because we had supplanted the Communist Party by wresting "left hegemony" from them, so we were a real threat to their leading asset in the U.S. But didn't we begin attacking them and claiming they were out to get Lyn right about this time?
I am a bit fuzzy on the chronology of one other thing, which is when the real ego-stripping sessions, the most notorious being those conducted by Kostas K in the New York and some other locals, took place, but I believe they took place starting in late summer and into the fall of 1973. Rich F was a particular victim out in Detroit, an extremely aggressive, self-confident field organizer in the previous several years, induced to have a virtual breakdown from which he never recovered his self-confidence. Apparently, this so obviously got out of hand that as suddenly as it started, it ended. But clearly, enormous damage was done to the entire membership's ability and willingness to think for themselves, question leadership, or do anything but adulate Lyn.
All of which set the stage for the most bizarre several weeks in the organization's history. Which were arguably the "tipping point," or "point of no return," between the old LC, which might have remained free enough to retain some internal political life and not put Lyn on the pedestal that he mounted during 1973 and never came down from, and the new one, which removed all checks and balances from the now paramount Leader. The National Conference over Christmas-New Years 1973-74. Lyn's opening address to the public conference, to which a number of members had actually invited their parents to witness and be convinced by their new guru, was a fiasco, at least vis a vis the parents. I don't recall that many specifics, but it was like no other public speech by LaRouche then or since, being largely a collection of sexual references, of which I remember only the claim that policemen's billy clubs were phalluses, and policemen in general homosexuals. We, or at least I, as best I can remember it, related everything he said to the BP campaign and "made sense" of it that way. Non members, needless to say, were freaked, not to mention grossed, out.
Then we had, and I forget whether a session or two got cancelled or postponed, but we got the news, that filtered in piecemeal, that Chris and Carol W., who had been in England, had just arrived overnight, during the Conference, and that it turned out that Chris had been brainwashed over a period of months previously, and that when they tried to fly back, on a secondary airline, it was already in the air and was recalled for some reason involving them, the CIA and possibly the KGB, but that somehow they got back safely, and that LaRouche spent all night the moment they arrived "deprogramming" him. As I recollect it, Lyn did not return to the Conference, and the internal wasn't much, as NEC members just reported what they knew.
Then, on New Years' Day, 1974, we arrived in the national office on 34th street, to be told to listen to a tape recording from the previous night's NEC meeting, including Lyn. This was the first "morning briefing." Within a few days, it was being typed up and passed around, and the briefing has remained a constant every since. But more important, we were instructed that the brainwashing plot was part and parcel of a plot by Rockefeller to pull off a coup in the near future, and we had to go out and leaflet the general population to warn them of this. I believe that carrying out such a campaign was a major departure from any previous M.O.
This was a real critical moment. The first one, I believe, where any significant number of members decided Lyn no longer made any sense. I don't recall how many left in the next several months, but it was far from negligible, including one person, whose name I forget, who'd been with Lyn since the beginning, but had been out of the country on some academic activity for a while who returned, but didn't stay long (Bob Dillon). I recall that I had real trouble believing the substance of what we were handing out. This wasn't what I had signed up for. I don't recall how I ended up rationalizing it, and how successful I was. I am certain I was highly relieved when we at least stopped the mass leafleting after a relatively short period. (I guess it worked, since Rockefeller never launched his coup.)
OK, to wrap this up more briefly. As part of the Chris W. brainwashing story, we had the revelation of the plot to send Cuban frogmen and kidnap or kill Lyn at his apartment. I believe that was the genesis of Security. I believe that whatever access people had to Lyn up to that time, it became very much more rarefied after that. There were NEC meetings with Lyn, I believe, nightly, which were attended by designated regular members, one per night on a rotating shift basis, whose job was to take notes in order to write up the next morning's briefing, and these were browbeating sessions. Ed S was a particular target, "Lake Placid," Lyn called him, so I was told by somebody, but it wasn't only him who was targeted.
The final piece of the picture was the rise of Security. Jose T, the early head of security activities, seemed to be a ringleader, but actually, as I learned from him at one of the Labor Day get togethers, he was a lone voice of sanity, who saw right through the brainwashing, recognized immediately that Chris wasn't brainwashed, and was probably just on drugs, and tried to convince Lyn to stop maintaining this story. He soon left, when he concluded that it was hopeless to try to change Lyn's mind on this.
What then happened with Security, from the standpoint of older members, is that much younger, newer, politically naïve or inexperienced, members, including people with no political credentials, who somehow managed to get assigned to Security—Jose's younger brother Phillo comes to mind, but there were others—suddenly wielded inordinate power. The analogy to how Stalin created the OGPU, the ancestor of the NKVD (later the KGB) to intimidate the old-line leaders, came to my mind at the time, and it remains a very apt comparison. It all seemed surreal. But suddenly, one could get in trouble for an "errant" thought that deviated from "the line," and be accused, not just of "blocking," but of endangering Lyn. And there was no appeal, no discussion, nothing to do but accept the new regime, or quit. Which some did. From that point forward, in fact, we always had a "party line" in a sense that I don't believe we did previously.
From that point, in early 1974, I believe dates Lyn's almost total seclusion. After all, he was under attack from the CIA and the KGB. They had already brainwashed two members, and possibly more. What Eablebeak reports dates from this moment forward.
So, I posit that 1973 was the pivotal year, starting with Munchrat, and culminating in what I've described as occurring in early 1974. A mildly "democratic centralist" organization which still had room for internal debate, and even criticism of LaRouche, became a LaRouche worship society, in less than a year. Ironically, the only ones, as far as I know, who ever disagreed with LaRouche subsequently were members of the NEC, such as Fernando Q., including long before he left. In fact, there was a weird period when he removed from the NEC because of his disagreements, and later brought back on. That is, a few of the NEC leaders, but only behind closed doors, actually spoke up on rare occasions. Internal conferences were rubber stamps for voting in whatever leadership "slate" LaRouche hand-picked, and nobody ever put up a rival slate. A complete "democratic centralist" internal dictatorship in all but name, where all wisdom flowed from LaRouche alone. And LaRouche himself, in person, vanished from visibility to members, except at the then twice-yearly conferences. He gave no more classes. He all but never visited the offices where his organization's members worked.
And, in support of Eaglebeak's characterization of his difficulty in handling himself in situations where he did, on occasion, have to interact with real people in the real world, I want to merely mention that this accords with LaRouche's disastrous meetings with foreign heads of state and other foreign dignitaries. His meeting with Indira Gandhi was a disaster, as was his meeting during the same Asian trip with top Japanese industrialists—those were, I believe, his first such meetings, but not the last. Details of his conduct will have to wait for another occasion. I have heard third hand reports of similar disasters when he visited Eastern Europe 6 or 7 years ago. I encourage others who know the results of any other of his high-profile trips to share what they know, but I'd be willing to bet that the pattern will persist. (And granted, he does make a favorable impression on a few people, but I'd be willing to bet it tends to be people who start out already so favorably inclined that Lyn feels adulated in their presence.)
Anyway, in the cases I've heard about, he shows absolutely no awareness of his surroundings, no ability to listen to the people he's meeting, he is simply totally self-absorbed with his own importance, and spouts nonsense, or what his interlocutors take for nonsense. He does not interact with them. He is not really there. He is in his own world, his own delusional world.
And otherwise, his only contact with people is with Security, and occasionally with NEC leaders. He never attends NEC meetings, even. Until Eaglebeak's post today, I hadn't ever put it together, and realized the depths of his self-created isolation from virtually all people, other than his scripted and tightly controlled public appearances, in the form of (until they were cancelled) conference speeches and Q and A from the floor, campaign ads during quadrennial presidential contests, and in the last several years, his webcasts, where he has only a small live audience, and all questions can be tightly controlled.
And it all began at the same time that the organization was radically transformed, in a manner that doomed it, and doomed the possibility that LaRouche might actually achieve some good in the world.
So, the question is, why? What happened in 1973? I believe that actually, it was something that occurred in late 1972, in England, to which LaRouche reacted extremely badly. And I believe that it at least plausibly might explain everything laid out above. Any takers on what that 1972 event might be (or alternate theories)? Stay tuned.

05-13-2008, 06:55 AM

‘‘larouchetruth'''

The Answer The answer, of course, was that in the late summer of 1972, LaRouche went to England where Carol, his common law wife, had taken up with Chris White, jilting Lyn. Lyn had gone to Linz, Austria, to attend and speak at a Bertrand Russell Tribunal forum organized by Vladimir Dedijer, brother of a famous Yugoslavian figure and pretty well known in left circles in his own right, and on his way back came through London, only to discover the betrayal.
What followed next, others may have a better recollection of. I recall fairly clearly a room at Columbia University in the fall of 1972, presumably an NC meeting, where Lyn went apoplectic against Chris and Carol. I don't recall anything at all of the charges. Others, please help me out here. But he clearly couldn't take it.
Anyway, within a few short months, all of the changes I detailed in my post above began to be unveilled, Operation Mop-up, the European Munchrat brainwashing, and the beginning of the psychological assault on the members' ability to challenge Lyn on anything in the form of the "Mother's Fears" paper and the sequelae. And the rest, as they say, is history.
But which raises, of course, fascinating psychological questions. I like the Anikyn Skywalker/Darth Vader metaphor, but if it is really true that being jilted by Carol that way was the trigger for a rather dramatic personality change, then I don't think the metaphor is very informative of the actually causal factors involved. If this is correct, and I don't see how it can fail to be, then we are looking at a very fragile personality, with huge sexual insecurities, most probably, as many on this forum have speculated in the past, a repressed homosexual.
At the risk of psychologizing , I want to throw out the possibility that the creation of a cult full of adulating automatons rather than an organization where he would simply be primus intra pares (first amont peers), was not in any sense a conscious intent in the pre-1973 years, and in some sense was more a by-product than a conscious intent in the post-1972 years. Meaning, among other things, that xlcr's oft-repeated claim that "it was never designed to succeed," somewhat misses the mark, because he misidentifies the purpose, the hidden, psychological purpose, of the organization for Lyn post-1972--as a prop to bloster up his fragile, terrified ego. So, it was designed to succeed at that, and it has done so marvelously. Sure, it was never designed to succeed in the real world. But not because Lyn in any sense consciously wanted a cult. He wanted the psychological reassurance that he wasn't a failure which in turn required the proof of this in the form of an organization where he was a relative God, worshipped by the throngs below.
Seen in this light, every evil of the organization, every decision that trampled on people's lives, bankrupted seniors, spent millions on "security" while his members starved, were all perpetrated in the service of soothing his hurt ego. Which is where we fit in what Eaglebeak had just reported prior to my first post on Aug. 31 2007 (that I reprinted above), where she said that Lyn acted positively terrified when confronted in private and tried to avoid such situations. Since he definitely did not act this way pre-1973, that would represent a collapse of his intellectual strength. Because in 1970 and 1971, Lyn would routinely accompany students from his lecture class to a local pizza place near Columbia University and interact in a normal seeming way, behavior unimaginable post 1972.
And the power of this over Lyn was, I submit, the attack on his sexual identity effected by Carol's leaving him. I don't recall, and this would be a clinically useful item if anyone can help on it, whether he had the same propensity to use scatagological language and vulgar sexual vocabulary prior to the fall of 1972. If not, and if it began with his "Mother's Fears" series, that would be further confirmation of this hypothesis.
Anyway, I think the gestalt I am suggesting is clear, and I look forward to how you all will chew this one up.

05-13-2008, 08:12 PM

xlcr4life

LTruth, when I came into the LC periphery everything you say about a pre 1973 LC is foreign to me. I wonder if that is the same thinking of a present LYM and LYMette, who whe presented with everything available involving scams, frauds, KKK, Nazis, criminal acts and other frauds says to themselves "That does not apply to me as I am after all of that".
In the early months when I would come to an LC office I made it a point to see if there were any pictures of Lyn on the wall or any of the idol worshiping I would have expected from a cult. There really were no outward signs of what one would expect in a glorification of Lyn as a worshiped leader like one finds in a North Korea for example.
The publications I was reading at the time were about Fusion energy, which I knew long before meeting the LC and the Rockefellers series which connected the CIA and everything else to one big conspiracy. My error in judgement was reading years earlier various conspiracy booklets, not having enough critical thinking and then viewing the LC as the "superior product" That and a messed up home/school life pretty much sealed my fate for the next few years in the LC.
Whe Lyn ran for the USLP 1976 campaign in my mind we were launching a pretty serious third party and the purchase of National TV time was a pretty big event in comparison to other third parties. From my vantage point I thought we were doing more things which were successful with the FEF and NADC work until it became clear that everything was designed to just make money and be a vanity project for Lyn.
In reviewing all of this and whatever successes we may claim ,were despite Lyn as time and time again in printed memos and in practice, the whole thing revolved around his ego and not for succeeding as a real org would want to do. Too many times I still maintained delusions that things would improve and we would eventually create something like a think tank outside of DC instead of a cult of personality. The URL I posted about the "CIA" defense in Boston was leaked in a way to the membership to give that delusion some more fuel so you would think that we were in the middle of directing policy instead of being scammed by some smart operator from Reading who hit the conspiracy sweepstakes with Lyn, Paul and Jeff.
In the LC there was the funny thing which would happen if you brought up the phony brainwashing story, the "mother's fears" Beyond Psych series and the age difference bewteeen Chris and Carol White. One wag who always seemed to know a lot more than he led people on to asked me once if I thought this was all true? I had not given that any thought for years as in the LC it was one mobe after another . The wag told me that the whole lunacy of this was to make members look at a young Chris needing a mother figure in Carol because of how impotent Chris was. In this deal, "the LC looks not at how crazy Lyn is, but how crazy Chris is and how Carol was the criminal for dumping Lyn. Many a man has gone off the deep end because of being dumped" If you wanted to see LCers clam up who normaly have an opinion on everything and can't shut up, just ask them about that theory.
To sum up, Lyn may have his own delusions which he firmly believes to be real. Those delusions in a cult of personality coexist happily with naive members who have their own view and reasons for joining which do not have to be the same as Lyn's delusions. If no one got abused, lost their life or had criminal things done to them, we would not all be here explaining this to people.
The ONE time I saw Lyn have to interact with people is part of what made me prepare to eventually leave. We built Lyn up to be on the old Morton Downey TV show in NYC in the mid 1980s. We built this up as a showdown of Lyn with Mort to show who the real tough guy in the elction is. After being in front of a non LC audience, Lyn broke down and curled up in a ball while telling his accusers to "shut up, shut up, shut up!". It was a pathetic site to see and after that, you never saw Lyn unless it was in a controlled environment. We had him hidden in the 1980 New Hampshire campaign away from live press because it just took a few questions to see him go off of the deep end. After this nonsense, Lyn began his bravado with using security stooges and acting like a tough guy with armed guards and trying to be like a Ken Dalto without the perfectly pressed pant seams.
Next up will be a return of an cheap parlor trick, vote fraud for the LYM and LYMettes.
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

05-13-2008, 09:31 PM

xlcr4life

Lyn hit a homerun decades ago when he came up with the idea of using vote fraud to keep members from figuring out how crazy we are. Instead of looking at the massive rejection of our lunacy and how bizarre Lyn really was, we were able to negate that and say that we DID get massive votes, but is was stolen from us. There is a legitamate issue of voting irregularities and disputed ballots in many elections, but that was never the issue. The issue was how to keep people going 24/7 in raising money and not get discouraged about how utterly ridiculous we were.
Any member who ran for office had a ready made reason for getting 0.3% of the vote, vote fraud. lyn could run for ever and ever and claim anything, get a 1 % recognition poll reading like Howie posted and state that we are a massive fixture in the elections.
This cheap parlor trick has made it way to the LYM and LYMettes with Lyn's latest from LPAC about how the eeeevil Obama won two primaries. If you have been following this saga, Obam is to win to stop Hillary from implementing Lyn's ploicies, but not before Obama is forced out so Bloomberg can win with Rohatyn's help.
Here is Lyn:
http://www.larouchepac.com/news/2008/05/10/larouche-assessment-honest-tally-would-show-clinton-won-may-.html
"May 10, 2008 (LPAC)--Lyndon LaRouche declared today that, in his opinion, an honest tally of the votes actually cast in the May 6, 2008 Indiana and North Carolina primaries, would have revealed that Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton won Indiana by a margin of at least 10 percent of the vote, and that she also won the North Carolina primary by a slim margin.
LaRouche elaborated, ``I have received reports that strongly indicate that the recorded vote results in both North Carolina and Indiana were fraudulent. LaRouche added, ``The thuggery that has been directed against the Clintons stinks. It is coming from the top-down, way above the Obama campaign and even way above the Karl Rove apparatus, which has certainly had a hand in the crimes committed.
LaRouche added that a further complication in assessing the North Carolina vote was the reported massive voter turnout for Obama in the Raleigh-Durham ``research triangle area, dominated by 18-25 year old university students, many of whom have had their brains ``scrambled by the MySpace/Facebook brainwashing. ``Some of these My Space zombies have no idea what they are doing, LaRouche explained. ``Some extreme cases are very similar to the video-game addicted mass killers. There are some real `no brainer' cases out there, and this further complicates any assessment of what actually happened in that part of North Carolina on Tuesday last.

The Daily Kos had a post abouit this and I have included some of the funnier comments.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/5/11/03554/3603/19/513560
LaRouche Claims Obama Stealing Election, Hillary Fans Swoon
by bernardpliers
Sun May 11, 2008 at 04:15:34 PM PDT
Ever since the invention of writing, man has asked "Who wrote this crap?" Usually, the answer is a conservative wrote that crap. And then there is the Lyndon LaRouche crowd, who can dish teh crazy like nobody else.
The LaRouchies can always put their own quirky spin on any current event, and Obama's rise has not escaped their attention (nothing gets past them). And they interpret it the same way they explain everything else: It's a conspiracy man!
In a nutshell (no pun intended) - British bankers helped the Obama campaign steal North Carolina and Indiana
The Democratic Party leadership, fully infiltrated by agents of the very same Anglo-Dutch financial establishment
because...
Clinton's continual pledge to represent the lower 80% of the U.S. population, and the unspoken fear that some of her policies seem to lean too far in the direction of the proposals put forward by Lyndon LaRouche
Whaaaa?
Of course, this is welcome news for the folks at hillaryis44.com, where they are grasping at straws.
bernardpliers's diary :: ::
Of course all this makes perfect sense to the folks at Hillaryis44.com. It explains everything!
CARBTNEW,
I am posting excerpts from that link coz it is stunning.
EVERYONE should read the entire article.
http://www.larouchepub.com/other/2008/3520threat_to_clinton.html
To disenfranchise some 2 million Florida Democratic voters who came out to participate in the electoral process in good faith, is not only unfair, it is illegal.
Blue Democrat Says:
May 10th, 2008 at 10:35 pm
Christ, have you guys seen this Larouche stuff?!
MJ!!!!?
Ultimately, contrary to press reports that secret Republicans in both Indiana and North Carolina were casting ballots for Hillary Clinton, when the votes were tallied in North Carolina, Republicans who voted in the Democratic primary supported Obama by a startling 13-to-1.*****
Anyway, there you have it folks, the Democratic primaries are being thrown by a cabal of Dutch bankers who are afraid that Hillary will enact LaRouche policies.
To quote Homer Simpson (16+ / 0-)
"LYNDON LAROUCHE WAS RIGHT"
Dang pests. (11+ / 0-)
The LaRouchies were hanging out at our LD caucus in Washington. For some stupid reason they kept bad mouthing Gore, making fun of his weight even.
Many even ran for delegate. None won that I know of.
We have become what they fear.
by tecampbell on Sun May 11, 2008 at 04:19:20 PM PDT

they don't believe in global warming (24+ / 0-)
, Its the Supreme Court Stupid, ObamaManiac2008, brunoboy
that's why Gore is on their you-know-what list.
Several of my in-laws are LaRouchies. Makes family trips interesting, I'll say that.
Global waming? (0+ / 0-)
Dude, they don't believe in geometry. Seriously.
LOL, nailed it (3+ / 0-)
Its the Supreme Court Stupid
a bunch of hustlers living on the fringe of the corruptacracy are about to expose themselves. Happy to see LaRouche (spelled right) on that list. Good riddance.
by GN1927 on Sun May 11, 2008 at 04:22:57 PM PDT
[ Parent ]
Not surprised that Larouche and other (4+ / 0-)
fools are threatened by Obama. Larouche's whole "movement" is based upon capturing people who understand that something is wrong in this country, but are credulous enough to think that hustlers like Larouche have answers. See, unlike Larouche, Obama doesn't just talk about bs; he's about real issues and real solutions, even incremental ones as Obama seeks to build a consensus.
Larouche is one of many morons who will become unsettled by Obama's presidency. And good riddance to them.

Tsk. (7+ / 0-)
Everyone knows the Illuminati are behind it all! Just like LaRouche to get it wrong. :-P
by Norbrook on Sun May 11, 2008 at 04:26:28 PM PDT
Fun fact (7+ / 0-)
If you google Lyndon LaDouche, you get 520 hits, and a nice portion of them aren't typos.
LaRouche is a certified nut job (4+ / 0-)
every so often there are a couple of loonies passing out LaRouche literature here on campus, yelling about one thing or another. at first they're funny, then they're annoying.
They hang out at Metro stops (2+ / 0-)
in DC. I take their literature and tear it up in their face. As much as I would like to throw it in their face, I then put it in my bag to recycle when I get home.

LaRouche hides behind crazy (2+ / 0-)

but his organization has been said, by intelligence professionals, to be the most sophisticated private intelligence agency in the world.
That doesn't mean he's right or that he doesn't make crap up, but there is more going on there than "crazy". In fact, it's Jeff Steinberg who is pretty much running the show these days anyway.
Larouchites also infiltrate all kinds of online discussion forums, sometimes spouting the Larouche line overtly and other times soft-peddling it.
They are also part of a global fascist network, many of the organizations and individuals of which put themselves forward as "progressives". Think Wayne Madsen or Webster Tarpley.
The circles they run in don't mean much here, but in places like Russia there is real momentum by parties with similar beliefs.
by No Right Turn on Sun May 11, 2008 at 04:44:39 PM PDT

Oh please (0+ / 0-)
What "intelligence professionals" exactly are saying they are " the most sophisticated private intelligence agency in the world" ?
Their publications are rubbish - try reading one. The LaRouche movement is a cult by any measure and brainwashes its followers. They all drank some seriously toxic kool-aid.

I'm REALLY tempted to send this to Mikulski (3+ / 0-)
A number of years ago, I was working a polling place for a slate of sitting judges when there was a LaRouchie candidate running against Barbara Mikulski in the Democratic Senate primary. They had some total lunatic (yeah, I realize that's a redundancy when talking about LaRouchies) working the polling place for her.
This idiot was randomly approaching people as they left the polling place and asking them if they'd voted for the LaRouchie candidate. Of course, a significant number of them said "yes" just to get the guy out of their face. At the end of the day, not surprisingly, he'd recorded a lot more people who said they'd voted for the LaRouchie candidate than had actually been recorded as voting for him. They cited this as "proof" that Barbara Mikulski had stolen the nomination. I wonder how our senior Senator feels backing the LaRouche-backed candidate when similar claims are being made about the election being "stolen" from Hillary.
His followers used to show up at Wayne State (4+ / 0-)
and yell all sorts of off the wall **** at students who would walk by. I have fond memories of watching one of them get chased around by the campus police after he refused to surrender his megaphone.fun times.

Dude, none of that is any near as crazy as the (2+ / 0-)

LaRouchies. These guys make Scientololgists look seriously normal.

I attended a Larouche meeting... (0+ / 0-)
...a while back. I knew a very smart person who was caught up. It seemed okay at the time, I know international bankers "rule the world" or some bs. Half of it true, half of it paranoia, all of it propogates a beliefthat we can't do anything about our situation. LaRouche needs to sit back and let a majority of the worlds children get a much needed role model, puppet with strings or not. What he thinks that Obama believes in is obviously not what he is espousing, nor is it what his supporters are responding to. So to see this outpouring of kindness and try and derail it is short-sighted to say the least.
PS, if LaRouche was so well connected (and he was), why does he need to prey on young kids to help with his essentially fruitless activities?
by Maanu on Sun May 11, 2008 at 06:49:44 PM PDT

The LaRouche/Paul connection (2+ / 0-)
This is the first presidential election in about 30 years that LaRouche is not running. It is well known (and obviously true) that a large part of his campaign apparatus shifted over to Ron Paul, with all the same nut-job conspiratorial accusations about the British-Dutch (read: Jewish) bankers.
It's not as wacko as it sounds. Actually it's just very old antisemitic propaganda. Much of it can be found in the old hoax "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" which Ron Paul recruits are assigned to read. The rest comes from Henry Ford's "The International Jew" which can be found online.
The shrewdness behind the tactic is to activate old populist American anti-semitic and anti-intellectual archetypes. (See Richard Hofstadter's Anti-Intellectualism in American Life.) Nothing random or "psycho" about it -- all very carefully engineered, and exactly why Hillary does so extremely well in Appalachia. It's not actually racism, it's generations of anti-semitic conspiracy theory built into the backwoods evangelical movement.
You'll see accusations that Obama is a Freemason, or tied to the Bilderbergers or Rothschilds, or crap about his education at Harvard and Columbia, all carefully assembled by these people. Whether they use the LaRouche or Paul or Clinton apparatus has been tactical -- I know of operatives who just switch back and forth as convenience suits.

Same old same old LYM and LYMettes.
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

05-13-2008, 10:55 PM

poe

Quote:
Originally Posted by xlcr4life
In the LC, one of the favorite movies to go see was "The Sting". There is something pretty funny about that in retrospect because the lesson to be learned in that movie is that Scam and Bunko artists themselves get stung by better scam and bunko artists who have an indepth knowlege of how the Mark thinks. Lyn knows what certain naive young people WANT to believe when they join the LC and uses that for the lifetime of the member, until they are used up. Well, so do the scam artists who know exactly what Lyn, Jeff and Paul want to think.
After leaving this Bizarro world I began to hear about just how much money Lyn and security were paying to various "consultants" who ended up being scam artists who outbunked Lyn's bunko with their own carefully crafted bunko.
Read this court doc to get an idea of just how elaborate the scam was and how to get a cult madman to take 13 million dollars of the members efforts and give it away to them over the years.

http://lyndonlarouchewatch.org/larouche-cia3.pdf
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

There is a line in the above document (on page 22 of the PDF)" NCLC will be given immunity from any federal prosecution for any events occuring prior to January 1982. ".
Isn't that what happened? Doesn't the Boston indictment include events starting starting with 1982 but not before? Maybe there really was a deal.

05-14-2008, 12:41 AM

howie

My resident Larouchie has settled back in to declare that "he owns this blog" (puzzling guy, he), and while the troll-like nature of this being leaves this as not particularly upsettable, an instructive bit of venom directed to Molly Kronberg:
<i>u want a nazi? look at george bush or cheney etc. and the rest of the war criminals that have broken US law and attempted to impose fascism on the nation… all while you sit on your blog, with all 7 people that read it, doing nothing to stop it
you are really a jumper aren't you?
a worthless life…
make something of yourself, like ken kronberg did with his life
who cares about his wife? did it ever occur to any of you clowns that husbands and wives sometimes don't get along? they call the end of a marriage d-i-v-o-r-c-e
i don't care what molly says now — ken isn't here to speak and anyone who comes around and claims to have "known" ken can go jump off a bridge for all i care</i>

05-14-2008, 05:51 AM

earnest_one

Golden Rules "i don't care what molly says now — ken isn't here to speak and anyone who comes around and claims to have "known" ken can go jump off a bridge for all i care"
Golden Soul Rules -- the Final Solution. Assh.les, one and all, following the[ir] mindless leader.

05-14-2008, 07:03 AM

boomer70

Quote:
Originally Posted by xlcr4life
The ONE time I saw Lyn have to interact with people is part of what made me prepare to eventually leave. We built Lyn up to be on the old Morton Downey TV show in NYC in the mid 1980s. We built this up as a showdown of Lyn with Mort to show who the real tough guy in the elction is. After being in front of a non LC audience, Lyn broke down and curled up in a ball while telling his accusers to "shut up, shut up, shut up!".

i wonder if we could get a copy of the show.

05-14-2008, 08:13 AM

‘‘larouchetruth'''

The Other Half of the Picture Picking up where I left off last night. It's only half the story to say that Carol's ditching Lyn triggered Lyn's near total transformation from more or less normal, if more than normally egocentric (ego-eccentric?), to leader of a band of adulators as he lurched from gimmick to gimmick after giving up Marxism, based on a presumed triggering of sexual fears, possibly repressed homosexuality. The other part, which is undoubtedly related, but clearly requires separate billing, is that Lyn became A TOTAL PARANOID, and he has never stopped being that.
I read a book some years ago about paranoia, that I need to find again, or another of the same ilk, which listed four broad personality traits of the paranoid personality, and Lyn hit on all four cylinders. Absolutely classic symptoms. I don't have time tonight to elaborate, but the paranoia is more than obvious on the surface, as we think back to the unbelievable degree to which Lyn's "security" became the be-all and end-all, requiring first dibs on all moneys, and way, way, way more spent than any rational soul would have thought necessary--to the detriment of everything else the org was doing.
But let's look at 1972-73. A member of the CP broke Don Phau's nose in front of a CP office in New York, which became the trigger for Operation Mop-Up. Then, I believe the CP did threaten (or at least, we were told they threatened) to try to get blacks from the Philadelphia ghetto to bust up the NUWRO conference held there, I forget the date, but I think early 1973. So, although incredibly risky (we were unbelievably lucky not to have numerous members jailed for assault--Steve Getsoff came the closest, and we hired a high priced mafia lawyer who managed to get him off, somehow), it was, I want to suggest, a kind of paranoid flight forward. Lyn was overly afraid, and rather than rationally deal with it, he irrationally almost got us in enormous trouble. And then, of course, was the RYM, the Revolutionary Youth Movement, which could have gotten us killed in the ghetto, but, amazingly, for a few months, appeared to be working, as Mousey and a few other gang leaders seemed to "get it" and join us.
But by mid-1973, Lyn was convinced that the top leadership of the Soviet Union was out to get him. That was probably the first unmistakeable manifestation of the paranoia in its pure form. That let to the Jannis S. "brainwashing" in East Germany, that surely never happened, which set up the precedent for members getting brainwashed, in that instance, by the Soviets, that presaged and made plausible the Chris White "brainwashing." I don't recall this in great detail, but I do believe I, and I presume others, found it somewhat peculiar that Jannis could be brainwashed in this way, and I don't recall if I had some cognitivie dissonance created in my mind before I finally swallowed the story, but I may have.
Then, of course, was that December conference, "the" watershed conference of the Labor Committee, the moment in which the org crossed over into the Twilight Zone, never to return, though of course none of us knew that at the time. Recall what the claim was about the Whites. They were supposedly on a New Caledonia plane, which was already airborne, and it turned around and returned, and Chris and Carol were taken off, and put on another plane. I've forgotten the details as to how this was supposedly proof of collaboration of the CIA and MI-5 (or was it MI-6). But now, Lyn had created for us as enemies of him and the Labor Committee not only the Soviets, but the CIA and MI-5/6. For a group as small and uninfluential as we were at the time, this was a pretty heavy dose of enemies to have. But it got worse.
First of all, as several people have noted, the Chris White incident induced a kind of mass psychosis, with various people believing, or fearing that they, too, had been brainwashed. Now, think about this for a moment. Chris White was supposedly brainwashed in the basement of a building in London, where he and Carol and just a handful of others lived among the enemy. But members here, how could they have been similarly gotten to? Without anyone else noticing? What appeared at least technically credible for Chris White was patently beyond absurd here, yet any number believed that they might have been brainwashed, or that others might have been. And of course poor Bill E. was supposedly actually brainwashed, I think because he had some sort of psychotic episode that suggested it. So this indicates the degree to which the paranoia had already, in such a very short time, permeated the entire organization. In less than a year.
And then, on New Year's Day, I believe, or possibly Jan. 2, we got the word: Rockefeller was planning a fascist coup and we had to go out and leaflet to stop him. At some point in here we also got the story about the Soviet frogmen who were supposed to emerge from the Hudson River and kill Lyn in his Greenwich Village apartment. I know I had real trouble swallowing the Rockefeller line. It just didn't seem to make any sense. How could he do that, even if he were so inclined, of which there was scant evidence. I felt that we looked ridiculous, handing out leaflets charging this, but I did as I was told.
Anyone, am I correct that this was the first time that our "enemy" had been personalized to an individual or specific tiny group, like the CIA (who back in those early days was our enemy, before it became our friend). I believe it was. Before that, it had been the more Marxist view that "bourgeois society" run by bourgeois government was the enemy, no?
Well, it has been individualized in this way ever since. After a few months of Rockefeller, it became, for a few weeks, "the Harriman-Ball faction," the returned to Rockefeller, and then, in 1975, when someone discovered Carroll Quigley's "Tragedy and Hope," which, includes, among 1000-odd pages that deal with all facets of world history in the 20th century, a brief history of the British "round-table", it became that round-table group, including Kipling, Jan Smuts, and I'm forgetting the other luminaries, the early forerunners of "the British" of today.
LaRoucheWorld has been ruled by unseen, hidden oligarchical dark forces, factions and individuals, ever since. Depending on the need at the moment, it has included, of course, the Rothschilds, British bankers in general, Lazard Freres, the Club of the Isles (that was from 1994--I believe they just made it up, I once tried to research it, and every reference in the internet traces back to a LaRouche publication), Rohatyn, etc.
Pure paranoia. One of the most amazing features of the present phase of "the British are coming, the British are coming" (which, by the way, Paul Revere could never have said that, since we were all "British" at that time--they presumably said "the regulars are coming" or something to that effect) is its total non-specificity. Which British? Bankers? Which bankers? How do you know it's "the British" if you can't specify individuals. How does it work? What's the source of their power and influence over U.S. politics?" Well, paranoids don't do well with such rational questions that non-paranoids are prone to ask.
And of course, in Lyn's case, especially after Paul Montgomery's unfavorable New York Times article, which I think was also in 1975, and a few years later the attacks by the ADL, it became much more credible to maintain that someone was after Lyn and the org. One thing about paranoids: just because they are paranoid doesn't mean that someone isn't after them. Such limited attacks confirm the whole premise.
One of the key clinical features of paranoids is that they create undisprovable propositions, based on the impossibility of "proving" a negative. Neither I, nor anyone, can possibly refute the proposition that "the British" are out to destroy the U.S. and hate LaRouche to anyone predisposed to believe it.
Anyway, I submit that Carol's leaving Lyn triggered an accute, and permanent, shift into a hyper-paranoid state that had clearly been latent before, but only manifested after unleashed by the challenge to his very being represented by Carol's leaving him. Hell, if we'd known then what this would trigger, hell, if Carol had known, maybe she'd have stayed with him, just for the good of the movement. Just Kidding, Carol.
For another day, what drew those of us who joined before the 1973 meltdown. And why some of us stayed after the enterprise jumped the rails.

05-14-2008, 04:43 PM

‘‘hecker'''

Some comments to the last few blogs regarding the 1972/73 period.
a) In addition to LHL's freaking out about Carol leaving him for Chris, there was a political side to it as far as I remember. In the summer of 1972, the first group of new recruits from Germany visited the US staying for a couple of weeks in NYC (and later in the summer house of Tessa de Carlo's: the Doors and the Stones being the favourite music!). Some stayed with Bob Dillon, some with Leif Johnson, some with the Chaitkins, some in LHL's apartment because he was in Europe for the Linz conference (or was it the Gramsci conference in Reggio?) anyway. In these weeks, Carol tried to win the German group over to her side which could be interpreted as an attempt to factionalize against Lyn. It didn't work out, however.
b) There was actually something going on regarding Jannis (Konstantin G.). He definitely was approached by East German intelligence agents and seduced by a female agent. He frequently went into East-Berlin and later revealed that he was invited as a VIP to the Weltjugendspiele which took place in Denmark at that time - accompanied by his agent in command. The LC intelligence staff screened a whole lot of papers looking for coverage of these World Games and actually found a photo of the VIP area with Jannis seated there next to that Stasi agent called Berger (if I remember correctly)....The whole story was published in the German "Bulletin".
c) One reason why LHL hates the British might have to do with the fact that English some bankers and industrialists with whom he had meetings in that period showed him the cold shuolder after he had to admit (after respective questions about his CV) that he had no professional background in any field other than being some kind of a consultant in the shoe industry. They really rubbed it into him that he was a nobody for them: the meetings didn't last much longer than 20 min and LHL was complimented out of the room... (I bet that did hurt!)
d) Bill E. was considered to be a "sleeper" at the famous conference just waiting for the trigger to start attacking LHL. The claim was that he would strangle Lyn..... But everyone can ask him personally - I think it is easy to find him via the internet.
So much for today.

05-14-2008, 05:05 PM

shadok

Bill E

Quote:
Originally Posted by hecker
d) Bill E. was considered to be a "sleeper" at the famous conference just waiting for the trigger to start attacking LHL. The claim was that he would strangle Lyn..... But everyone can ask him personally - I think it is easy to find him via the internet.

Please don't. He doesn't want to talk about anything related even remotely to the org. anymore. He s turned the page. Thanks.

05-14-2008, 07:50 PM

borisbad

Although I think much has been rightfully stated about the "phase change" in the organization post 1972-1973, I think the seeds were planted earlier in the sense that Lyn always inculcated the belief that he was the supreme arbiter dicta of what Marx and Lenin stood for, that we were the intellectual elite of the Left and that everyone else was more or less to be ignored. And given the fact that the main left wing groups like PLP, the Weathermen, the CPUSA and The SWP were most definitely anti-intellectual and had barely any members who had even attempted to struggle with reading things like Das Kapital (all 3 volumes plus Theories of Surplus Value), etc. it was easy to find agreement with LaRouche that we were the real intellectual cadre force. However, in that time we really had to fight for some type of hegemony amongst competing left wing groups that had no compunction about chalenging LaRouche dogma with their own dogma. So in that sense there was more freedom and there certainly was more debate, internally and with other organizations.
After MopUp, the NCLC became a pariah among leftists and we had to go out and try and attract the unaffiliated like welfare rights leaders, farm worker organizers, etc. in order to maintain "leftist" credentials. And the left itself sort of died out, not thanks to Mop Up, but the deceleration and eventual ending of the Vietnam War.
I think the cult aspect began aserting itself after the split by the so-called Bavarians. In fact, I was at a small meeting up in the Columbia Univ. area where LaRouche was present with Steve Frasier, Paul Milkman and some of the others of the Bavarian faction. Even at that time, he issued a warning that if Frasier split from the organization, he would be commiting "political suicide", so it is possible that even then, LaRouche had the idea that anyone disagreeing with him was committing figurative if not literal suicide.

05-15-2008, 01:20 AM

scrimscraw

The early years larouchetruth,
Thank you for your lengthy postings recently on the early LC days and the insights into LHL's psychology and devolution. Keep them coming. This material and that from others recently has been outstanding.

05-15-2008, 12:01 PM

c256

The whole European push in the early 70s is key, I think. I don't have the whole picture, just aspects. As hecker noted above, there was some reality to the Jannis incident (although clearly embellished and distorted later by the LC), and I would say the same about the British situation, where I was at the time. Remember that this period in Europe was very strange with the Red Brigades and other ultra-radical/terrorist groups in full swing. Without getting into the paranoia of the LC, I have seen recently on European TV documentaries on how these groups were massively infiltrated by police and intelligence agencies during this period to create destabilization. Allegations that are documented.
In Britain, we were in the midst of all these grouplets. One of our senior members was actually enrolled in the masters program at the London School of Economics (traditional hotbed of the British Left--the Columbia of its day) with as his tutor James Joll (look up his wikipedia bio), the person to whom the "third man" of the British intelligence Soviet double-agents fled to as a safe-house when he was uncovered in 1974 (I think the date was). When we were ordered back to the US in January 1974, there were literally tanks in the street. Heathrow airport was surrounded by the military and barbed wire because of IRA threats. And, I still remember the front page picture and article in the Daily Mail which, as its lead paragraph, warned about a small, but influential US-based left group ready to organize attacks in Britain. At the time, the LC was the only group that answered that profile. Several years later, when everyone in the org was requesting their files through the Freedom of Info Act, I tried to get mine, but was refused because they were held by an unspecified "foreign power". We were certainly being watched--and profiled--if nothing else.
There is also the whole The Next Step deserters operation which formed the basis of the LC leadership in Sweden, and some figures in the US. Not to mention the Greek angle. And the German leadership? The fact of Anno's brother being part of West German military intelligence is well-known. Helga was feted in China as a maoist journalist before the appearance of the LC.
How this was all then spun out by LHL is another question. Was he involved in European intelligence shenanigans? Did he merely play into what were otherwise established networks? We'll probably never know. I, personally, think that Lyn had a breakdown in the early 70s following Carol's decision to leave him. But more importantly for the long-term trend in the org was the arrival of the "younger woman", Helga, who notoriously pussy-whipped the Great Man feeding on his potency fears while also giving him the outward cover to vaunt himself and his mother's fears theories as the virile middle-aged nerd who could attract and (he led us to believe) satisfy a younger woman.
Probably all this is no more than a sad soap opera, made tragic by the inability of so many to break out of this Truman Show.

05-15-2008, 06:28 PM

eaglebeak

Munchrath Munchrath had everything to do with Lyn and Helga getting together. In fact, I'm told by someone who was present for some of it that Lyn conducted the several days of programming (oops, I mean psychoanalytical) sessions while in bed with Helga.
He used it to break all relationship between Helga and her previous boyfriend, and later EEC member, Uwe Friesecke.
Lyn upheld Munchrath as THE method for creating a unified, single-minded (did he mean zombified?) executive body, but of course the downside was that when they quit, they all quit.
It was Lyn's triumph as the ultimate brainwashing session. Not quite sure why the EEC wound up hating him (and Helga) years later if he had gotten them all "cathected" onto him... Wait--let me think--hmm. Maybe what we used to call a Harlow's monkeys syndrome.
2. The European Push--actually, in the summer of 1971 or thereabouts, there was a "European summer"--with Nick and Gus in Europe trying to organize in Greece, putting out Epanastasi,Goldman there too, and others--the summer Leif Johnson wrote a pretty funny internal document on organizing the Laplanders.
Of course, this was in the days before Lyn controlled everything, and in the days before he had completely flipped out (I concur with larouchetruth's view that what pushed him over the edge was Carol's leaving him in 1972).
So there was room for different political operations and views in those days.
Also, of course, in those heady days of youth, there was Our Direct March to World Power, a philippic authored by the nascent EEC, I believe. What a hoot. I probably have it in a box somewhere--that would be hilarious to dig out.

05-15-2008, 07:56 PM

xlcr4life

To B-12 or not to B-12

Quote:
Originally Posted by eaglebeak
Of course, this was in the days before Lyn controlled everything, and in the days before he had completely flipped out (I concur with larouchetruth's view that what pushed him over the edge was Carol's leaving him in 1972).
So there was room for different political operations and views in those days.
Also, of course, in those heady days of youth, there was Our Direct March to World Power, a philippic authored by the nascent EEC, I believe. What a hoot. I probably have it in a box somewhere--that would be hilarious to dig out.


I think the article is this one below from the Feuerbach Campaigner:
http://wlym.com/campaigner/7312.pdf

On Lyn's mental collapse I think his physical condition is being overlooked after being dumped. The description I posted about Lyn foraging for coffee cups and guzzling overnight remnant coffee with cigarette stubs still in the cups sounds like a serious issue. From a few sources there appears to be an explanation of both mental and physical ailments being treated with a classic chicken egg problem of what came first, the mental or physical breakdown or did both coincide with each other? The new ELC recruits in Germany were originally medical students which may explain some things which eventually took place.
You do not stay awake for days and nights on end typing manifestos like a madman, unless I guess you are doped up like a race horse or a madman or maybe both. All I can say for now is that one of the things Lyn used to use to show his superiority to mere mortal members, especially leadership, was bragging about being able to stay up for days without sleep while they fell short. If you investigate the deep and severe conditions of certain problems, symptoms such as extreme paranoia, anxiety, inability to sleep, nervousness and delusions keep appearing.
Maybe that Cross Barbara B wears is easier than a string of Garlic to ward away a blood sucker who pretty much drained many members who now are the Leesburg deadenders.
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

05-15-2008, 08:57 PM

localgreek

Quote:
Originally Posted by xlcr4life
I think the article is this one below from the Feuerbach Campaigner:
http://wlym.com/campaigner/7312.pdf
You do not stay awake for days and nights on end typing manifestos like a madman, unless I guess you are doped up like a race horse or a madman or maybe both. All I can say for now is that one of the things Lyn used to use to show his superiority to mere mortal members, especially leadership, was bragging about being able to stay up for days without sleep while they fell short. If you investigate the deep and severe conditions of certain problems, symptoms such as extreme paranoia, anxiety, inability to sleep, nervousness and delusions keep appearing.
Maybe that Cross Barbara B wears is easier than a string of Garlic to ward away a blood sucker who pretty much drained many members who now are the Leesburg deadenders.
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

================
I concur with xlcr4life. This man has some serious mental disorders. What you describe above is common for bipolar disorder, a condition which varies in severity, and which likes to peak in the mid to late 40s. He could have several conditions; this also is not uncommon. The manias, the sleeplessness, the paranoia, are all common in bipolar illness. Also, his withdrawn times could signal depression. But for me, there is more than just being left by his wife. Life dishes out many challenges to each and every one of us; betrayal by those near by, death, illness, disappointment, etc. Fragile people tend not to be evil; they tend to be ultrasensitive; this Larouche is not. If his wife left, and if he had some decency in him, he would have become more understanding--you know the old paradigm--suffering brings wisdom, etc.
He is instead like a vampire--domineering, sucking the life out of everyone around him.
I know that moral evaluations are not fashionable for psychiatrists and non-believers, but there is also a moral consideration one can make. Evil does exist in my books, alongside illness.

05-15-2008, 09:37 PM

eaglebeak

Hey, Lyn! Check It Out! Neighbor Indicted In MySpace Suicide Case
Missouri woman charged for orchestrating cruel Megan Meier hoax
MAY 15--A Missouri woman was indicted today on federal fraud and conspiracy charges for her alleged role in orchestrating a cruel MySpace hoax against a teenage girl who later committed suicide. Lori Drew, 49, was named in an indictment handed up today in U.S. District Court in Los Angeles (a copy of the indictment can be found below). According to prosecutors, Drew created a fake MySpace page as a ruse to determine whether Megan Meier, 13, was making derogatory remarks about her daughter, with whom Neier was fueding. The MySpace page was purportedly that of "Josh Evans," a 16-year-old boy who had taken a liking to Meier (the late girl is identified in the indictment only by her initials, M.T.M.). Posing as "Evans," Drew and her unnamed co-conspirators, investigators allege, frequently corresponded with Meier, inviting the child at one point to touch the "snake" of "Evans." On October 16, 2006, "Evans" told Meier "in substance, that the world would be a better place without M.T.M in it." Later that day, Meier hung herself in a closet at her family's O'Fallon, Missouri home. When Drew learned of the suicide, the indictment charges, she caused the fake MySpace page to be deleted and directed a juvenile who knew of the hoax to "keep her mouth shut." A key witness in the federal probe was Ashley Grills, 19, who has admitted to helping Drew set up and maintain the phony MySpace account. Grills's account of her involvement can be found here, while various police reports can be found here.
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2008/0515083drew1.html
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,356056,00.html
Now, I'm not suggesting anything about rants about suicide and Ken Kronberg and several years' worth of documents from Lyn on Ken, but--
I wonder if the LYM will pick up this story the way they did before?
Maybe Lyn will think burying it is the more politic route to take.

05-16-2008, 12:20 AM

boomer70

manic and superman On the topic of the Hube and bipolar syndrome, I'm wondering if the manic side can fend off the depressive by creating a world which confirms his/her sense of omnipotence. I have been doing a lot of research on the Hubb(ard) lately, and the data there suggests to me the same idea.

05-16-2008, 07:52 AM

‘‘larouchetruth'''

Some Loose Ends in the Discussion to Date Wow, reading xlcr's statement that, joining only a couple of years after the cataclysmic 1972-74 period which we've been reviewing for the last several days, he nonetheless might as well have joined 20 years later for all he really knew or understood of what had just quite recently occurred. Now, jump to what the poor members of the LYM know of LC prior history--absolutely nothing whatsoever. They don't even know what happened in the 1990s. They have no idea, no clue, no conception, of how large the membership was in, say 1975, the high-water mark for active membership (well over 500, in several dozen cities).
It is as if people had absolutely no clue, beyond perhaps some names of places and events, about history they didn't live through. People born post-Vietnam War era have very little knowledge as it is. LYM members have absolutely no knowledge, much less understanding, of what the org was at the beginning, the transformation in Lyn, and because of that in the org, in the period under discussion, and what the org became. No wonder a lot of our posts probably go right past them. There is nothing in their experience in the LYM which remotely connects to anything we are talking about. There is probably no remedy or antidote for that, save to urge them to read some of the old Campaigners, and try to take an interest in the old history. As Santayana said, those who fail to learn from history are destined to repeat it.
With that, I want to respond to a number of posts and go through a little of the ur-history of the LC, including a couple of corrections to a few chronological issues that are slightly off. I believe this discussion will contribute to deepening our understanding of what happened to Lyn in 1972-73.
First, a couple of things about the European organization. The roots of that began earlier than was indicated, through our three Greek members, Nick Syvriotis, Gus Axios and Jannis Sivelas (to use their nommes de plume of that time). I believe Nick met Lyn through the course he gave at the New School in 1967 or so (more on that later), through whom Lyn met the others, and they were all involved in the Greek leftist, revolutionary movement. They had a group around them of some numbers of others in an actual organization, I do not know how large it was, but I don't think it was large. They were grouped around the magazine Epanastasi, and this "arm" of Lyn's movement was co-eval with the formation of the Labor Committees. Also, I can't recall whether it was actually a Trotskyist offshoot of the 4th international, but it might have been (help me out, anyone who knows). At some point by the early '70s, the group had evaporated, leaving just these three as members of the org. Nick and Gus came to the states, Jannis stayed permanently in Europe.
I can't vouch for how the first contact with the Zepp-Friesecke group came about, but it must have been 1971, and some of them, I vaguely recall, came to the States. What I can pinpoint for certain is the date of Lyn's first trip to Europe, which was for the Linz conference, which took place in late September, 1972. It was after that that he swung through London, and may also have met with what became the German org, including Helga. Then, of course, he had whatever freakout occurred in London with the discovery that Carol had ditched him for Chris. And he was back in Europe in early 1973 for the Munchrat Moment.
Can someone recall when the membership in England was withdrawn? Was it as late as the end of 1973, when Carol and Chris finally came home? Something tells me it was earlier, because Lyn was calling England fascist well before the end of 1973. I somehow want to say he was saying that in 1972, but maybe it was 1973. Whatever it was I remember thinking at the time, wow, so we're going to shut our operations down in an entire country? And I may even have privately questioned the characterization as fascist. Be that as it may, if I am right, then Chris and Carol's staying on in London would have been in direct defiance of an order from Lyn to return sooner, with the rest of the London membership.
Also, if there really was Stasi involvement in the Jannis case, and entrapment and enticement, if not outright brainwashing, then someone in the East Bloc was concerned with us. Though it would remain to be explained why they saw us as a threat in Europe at that time. And if what C256 reports is accurate, and I assume it is, then there was every reason to fear our members were being targetted, our organization in England was being targetted, for being killed or arrested.
Finally, something doesn't ring true about Lyn being in bed with Helga at Munchrat. That would place the beginning of him and Helga as a number before he took up, I believe for about 2 years, with Vivian nee F. Was he two-timing Vivian from the beginning, was he already screwing Helga (or trying to, at least) when Vivian moved in with him, or what? Or did he not make it with Helga until the end portion of his two years with Vivian?
Anyway, now to some very early history to make a few interesting observations.

05-16-2008, 07:57 AM

‘‘hecker'''

How the German movement started
In the late 60ies, some medical students at the university of Duesseldorf formed a group called "Initiative Kritische Medizin". The group primarily dealt with university issues. In the middle of 1970, the majority of the group moved into a house in Muenchrath forming kind of a commune in order to intensify the political work. They held weekend seminars there inviting guests who like the IKM members came from different political layers: Trotzkyists, Maoists, Communist Party members. But also participated in demonstrations (e.g. in Frankfurt) defending the Black Panthers (Free, free Bobby Seale...) Among such guests were Ed Podhorn who also studied Medicine in Duesseldorf (to avoid military service in the US) and his wife Fren whose sister Julie was married to Uwe v Parpart who was teaching at the Swarthmore College in those days. He already was a member of the LC. After the Podhorns returned to Philadelphia, they must have mentioned that there was this political group in Duesseldorf worthwhile to be contacted.
The actual contact occurred then through the three Greeks living in Cologne at that time: Gus, Nick and Jannis! Hans Bandmann got their address through Ed/Uwe and visited them in Cologne, and from then on, the whole story started. Uwe and Webster Tarpley coming over to Germany (Hannover) giving classes once a week. Since Anno H. and Uwe F. had already moved to Berlin to continue their medical education, they were contacted and included in the recruitment efforts. In Berlin, Helga whom they had met in a kind of a Marxist seminar, joined in. Other medical students like the Cramers joined in as well. At the same time, a third group was established in the Rhein-Main area by the Liebigs (Michael being a class mate of Hans') and the Mletzkos (Mathias also being a class-mate of Hans and Lena being the sister of Gabriele). Thus, within a couple of months, three "locals" had been founded. Once in a while, weekend seminars with people from all locals were organized centrally: e.g. in Hameln with Goldman, Shulman, Nick's wife Barbara and others participating.
so much for now. Anybody is invited to add to the story.

05-16-2008, 08:39 AM

c256

The British local was disbanded in stages. London was the venue of the European conference over the 1973-1974 New Years weekend. Chris and Carol were not in attendance because they had been called back to the US by LHL. It was during the London conference that we got word of Chris's flip-out on the plane. It was immediately decided that Steve and Marcia Pepper (who had been in London since late summer and all during the fall) would accompany C&C to the US. The rest of the local stayed in-place, receiving bulletins from the US of the "deprogramming" until, it must have been around the 10th of January or so, we received an early-morning (London time, 2 am US time) call from Sixto, I think it was, saying we were in big trouble and we would have to get out. All Americans were told to leave, but the small group of Brits we had actually recruited during that period remained. They were pulled out later, perhaps in February 1974, but certainly no later than spring 1974, and were re-deployed to other parts of Europe.
On Lyn and the British local. Lyn was not at all happy about it and had tried to get C&C to come back to the US. They defied him, so various other people started being sent there, for example DG who was sent on a left-group profiling tour for Lyn as his advance-man for a later LHL European visit. Steve and Marcia Pepper came over for the European founding conference in July 1973 (LHL was not present) and it was later decided that they would be deployed to London. I had first met the org in the US in spring 1972 (and was present at the meeting in Baltimore where The Next Step officially joined the LC) and had left my name with someone in New York to be contacted in London where I had transferred to the London School of Economics, but no one ever got in touch. I just happened to meet up with LC again on the front steps of the LSE where they were selling NS. I first met Lyn in London, it must have been late summer or early fall 1973. He was already a-social and catatonic.
I think the Munschrat description is probably accurate. I know for a fact that Lyn had already asked Helga to live with him in late-spring 1973 because during the car trip from London to Germany for the European founding conference, Carol read a letter from Nancy reporting that Helga had turned him down. Was Lyn two-timing Vivian? Absolutely. And it was an embarrassment to the entire NEC. From what I recall, it was Uwe von P. who finally delivered an ultimatum to Lyn to make a choice and stop his Atlantic-hopping.
Thanks hecker for the Germany med student story. I only had a hazy outline of it and didn't know the Podhorn-Fran connection. Now it all makes more sense.

05-16-2008, 08:49 AM

‘‘larouchetruth'''

Primordial History of the Labor Committees LYM members could not possibly begin to understand the milieu Lyn was in the 1950s and early '60s, and most members who joined post 1975 probably have almost grasp of this. This was the milieu of the Trotskyist international movement, the so-called "Fourth International," which was actually "two, three, many Fourth Internationals." Actually, just two, but each one of them also had multiple factions, each country had its own branch, and Lyn was totally caught up in that until well into the 1970s. Thus, when he finally determined to leave the Socialist Workers Party (SWP, the U.S. "official" Trostskyist organization) in 1965, he tried to join, and take over, two small splinter groups that had left the SWP in the previous year, first the Spartacist Movement led by Cliff (?) Robertson, and when that didn't work out after a month, he tried to inhabit the Workers League of Tim Wohlforth. But stints lasted aobut 1 month.
Then, in 1966, Lyn caught two breaks. He got an invitation to teach Marxism at the New School, and he was permitted to set up a branch of the Committee for Independent Political Action, whose founder and head was trying to build a basis for him to run for office as a socialist. It was through his course that he met the early, pre-Columbia strike, members of what was to become the Labor Committee, notably Ed and Nancy Spannaus, Anton "Tony" Chaitkin and Leif J. They then used the CIPA as a laboratory for political action, calling their branch "West Village CIPA."
Lyn also met, through the course, one or more members of the Progressive Labor Party (PLP), who went to Columbia and were part of SDS. As several of them started to view Lyn as far more intellectually solid than the PLP (no great feat, in and of itself) and distance themselves from PLP, Lyn and his proto-group joined forces with PLP to create a "Labor Committee" within the Columbia SDS chapter, whose focus was how students could reach out to labor. (By the way, I knew some of this, but I actually refreshed my memory on some of the details by perusing the "Conceptual History of the Labor Committees", which Lyn wrote in late 1974. It is at http://wlym.com/campaigner/7410.pdf) )
Anyway, to get on with the story, Labor Committee followers of Lyn's, including most notably Tony Papert and Steve Komm, were among the leaders of what became the Columbia strike, which drew lots more people to the Labor Committee, while at the same time other members of PLP in a couple of other cities, most notably Philadelphia and Boston, started to be introduced to Lyn and to come around, where the second branch of the LC was founded in Philadelphia sometime after the Columbia strike. The Phila chapter is very important, because it played a major role in a strike at the University of Pennsylvania in February of 1969, and then, two months later, the former PLP member Steve Fraser, had founded and led the chapter, and his roommate Borgmann, had the police barge in, "search" their place, and lo and behold, claimed to find some plastique in their refrigerator. Needless to say, it was a hamhanded frame-up, but it showed the level of attention that Lyn's small group was already attracting. And it had momentous impact on the future history of the Labor Committees.
You know, this early history, had Labor Committee delivered on the promise it had, had Lyn been the person we thought and wanted him to be, all of this rather remarkable early history would have become the stuff of legend, kind of like Castro's time in the mountains of Cuba, Mao's Long March, Lenin's return by sealed train to Petrograd. But I digress.
Anyway, after Columbia, and later Penn, Lyn's "Labor Committee" spread quickly, hitting many campuses where chapters were formed, including Swarthmore outside of Philadelphia, Queens College, SUNY at Stony Brook in Long Island, CUNY in NYC, Cornell in Ithaca, and Buffalo, Baltimore, to pick off what I can name. Right around the Columbia strike, which also just followed a transit strike, publications began appearing. The first, I believe, was a pamphlet supporting the transit strike, and then Campaigners began, with two early issues discussing the "mass strike." Also, a piece I recall reading a couple of years later which I thought was brilliant at the time, "The Third American Revolution," though I can't remember now what it said.
But by 1970, the beginning of what became the faction fight between Lyn and the Fraser faction was brewing, and as I recollect, the real root of it was legal strategy for the frameup case, which persisted, and where, if memory serves, Lyn wanted the defendents to mount a political defense, and they wanted a good lawyer to get them off. Anyone who remembers this better than I, please jump in to correct me, but that's my best effort at recall. Anyway, it then spilled over into debates over editorial policy for articles in Campaigner, the major piece of literature of the org at that time, involving a dispute over policy toward labor, Walter Reuther, then-head of the Auto Workers Union, the details of which I cannot now remember, and things got uglier and uglier. It also involved how to orient toward the growing ecology movement which was attracting students as the first Earth Day approached.
Things finally came to a head in the late fall of 1970, where it became increasingly obvious that this dispute was not going to get reconciled, and there was going to be a split. What I don't know to this day, and would love it if anyone else reading this can fill in more details, was what, really, was behind the split. Was it really just legal approach? Or did Steve Fraser start seeing something in Lyn that he found ugly and wanted to force Lyn out and take over the Labor Committee? It may sound preposterous in hindsight, but it wasn't in real time. Maybe Lyn, in private shouting matches that I am certain must have gone on, displayed some of the ugly traits we now associate with him later on. If anyone talks to Steve Fraser, he might hold the key.
The reason why I find this fascinating is that it was the first time Lyn was opposed, seriously, and his response was to plan to either win it all, or leave and form his own group. There was the late December conference coming up, and a week prior (all fall, by the way, there had been a growing flurry of factional documents from both sides) the upper echelons of those backing Lyn met, and decided to call themselves the PPT, for Positive Political Tendency. Lyn's group called the Fraserites "Bavarians" for the backward region of Germany. It was at this meeting that the practice of electing slates began, where a slate of, I recollect, 6 people for a proposed National Executive Committee, or NEC, and maybe 9 for a National Committee, were discussed, voted on and thereby chosen, to be presented at the conference, rather than any formula that would have shared leadership. Lyn wanted total control, or he was splitting, and had the Fraserites mustered a majority, Lyn was fully prepared to walk out.
In the event, Lyn's side had the numbers, they elected their slate, and the Fraser faction walked out, to set up the Socialist Labor Committee, which lasted for about a year. Most of its members dropped out of politics, a couple returned to the fold.
That was at the beginning of 1971, and it ended the primordial period of LC history. I think at that time the focus of much of LC activity turned toward strike support, to try to create coalitions of students, the unemployed, welfare mothers and workers, and in that effort we intervened into the National Welfare Rights Organization, recruited Janette Washington who stayed with us for many years (a great lady, now deceased), which effort eventually led to the formation of NUWRO (National Unemployed and Welfare Rights Organization) in 1973. We started going after the Club of Rome and zero growth, and then in the summer, with the collapse of the Bretton Woods system, Lyn came out with his Emergency Reconstruction Program.
I will stop here for now, since that brings us to the fall of 1972, Carol's desertion, and Lyn's trip to Linz and then Germany and England. Oh, by the by, as I recollect it, the charges against Fraser and Borgmann were dismissed sometime shortly after the split.
I think it is notable that both the zero growth campaign and the ERP were already a deviation from what any other avowed socialist organization would ever have gotten involved in. And the heads of the Club of Rome were demonized just as he demonizes all enemies still today. So he was clearly branching out beyond the traditional leftist, socialist "reservation." But, that said, I still think it is qualitatively different from what started happening in early 1973.
So, anyone else who can flesh out any of this, or bring any other insight to bear on it, please have at it.

05-16-2008, 12:55 PM

eaglebeak

The Resurrection Man

Quote:
Originally Posted by howie
My resident Larouchie has settled back in to declare that "he owns this blog" (puzzling guy, he), and while the troll-like nature of this being leaves this as not particularly upsettable, an instructive bit of venom directed to Molly Kronberg:
<i>u want a nazi? look at george bush or cheney etc. and the rest of the war criminals that have broken US law and attempted to impose fascism on the nation… all while you sit on your blog, with all 7 people that read it, doing nothing to stop it
you are really a jumper aren't you?
a worthless life…
make something of yourself, like ken kronberg did with his life
who cares about his wife? did it ever occur to any of you clowns that husbands and wives sometimes don't get along? they call the end of a marriage d-i-v-o-r-c-e
i don't care what molly says now — ken isn't here to speak and anyone who comes around and claims to have "known" ken can go jump off a bridge for all i care</i>

So says the always elegant revenire, the Voice of the LaRouche Movement, posting on the Skull/Bones blog.
As a longtime friend of Ken's and Molly's, I really couldn't let this codswallop pass unremarked.
One thing I want to remark on is how utterly vulgar LaRouchism is.
But more--as to the identity of revenire--I still can't quite shake the feeling that the [a] the individual is drunk, [b] the individual is the misbegotten product of the LaRouche/PsyWar/Beneath the Basement project--that is, LaRouche in his cups directs his faithful Igors in various "psywar" attacks on various enemies, OR [also high probability] this is satire, something I've said before about the wildly pro-LaRouche rants that sometimes appear on this board, so overstated as to be hilarious and perhaps intentionally so.
Because as an advertisement for LaRouchean humanism, hylozoic monism, golden souls, etc., revenire is a flop.
Anyhow--comments--
make something of yourself, like ken kronberg did with his life
1. This has to be a joke, one in very bad taste. By taking his own life during the week that he was in the legal process of shutting down WorldComp and PMR, the printing operations to which he had devoted nearly 30 years of his life, Ken might reasonably have been supposed to be saying that he felt he had NOT made something of his life.
2. Everything Ken DID feel that he made of his life--in the drama work, the Shakespeare classes, the poetry classes and writing, the Yiddish Renaissance work, the study of Ancient Rome, the work on William Gilbert--all the way back, in other words--he felt was being taken from him or had been taken from him by the intellectual quicksand of the org, and in particular (the Shakespeare work) by the vicious stupidity of Lyn LaRouche and Tony Papert.
How do I know? He told me.
who cares about his wife? did it ever occur to any of you clowns that husbands and wives sometimes don't get along? they call the end of a marriage d-i-v-o-r-c-e
Please note the complete disjunction between the first and second sentences. The first question that comes to mind: Does this mean that if someone's divorced we're not to care about them?
Second, and more serious: The thought here expressed goes to the kernel of LaRouche's small, hard, sclerotic, piece-of-coal heart: "who cares about his wife?"
Who indeed? In fact, who in the org cares about anyone else--especially if LaRouche has told you NOT to care about him or her? Who cares about Carol or Chris, Nick, Uwe, Gus, Mel, Warren, Webster, Fernando, Robyn, Linda, Christina, Pidge, Dalto, Leif, Nora, Kathy, Laura, Don, Paul, Andy, Steve, Uwe F, Gabriele, Michael, Anno, Elisabeth, Hartmut, Ortrun, Renate, Dino, Cristina, Fiorella, Philip, Hans, Laurent, Lana, Thierry, Mary, Bill, Sander, Joyce, Bobby, Sandy, Margaret?--just to name a few of the leaders and members of the org who have quit over the years.
Revenire doesn't. Lyn says these are Bad People Doing Bad Things. Why, they may even be Government Agents out to get Lyn!?!
Now, we recall, those of us (fewer than 7) who have been following revenire, that he has told us that he is not a member of the LaRouche org and not based in Leesburg.
If any of that is true, then revenire, of course, didn't know Ken or Molly or any of these people just listed. Wouldn't know them if they slapped him silly (there's a thought....)
If it's not true, then revenire as a loyal LaRouche Leesburgian knows that All Those Bad People are not to be cared about any more.
Hell, they weren't even cared about when they were IN the org.
I mean, forget "who cares about his wife?" Who cared about Ken? No one cared enough to prevent Lyn and Tony Papert from savagely attacking him.
I've always wondered what would have happened on the morning of Wednesday, April 11, 2007, if someone--say, Barbara Boyd, or Bruce Director, or Nancy Spannaus, or Dennis Small, or Jeff Steinberg--the key players, as I see it--had called Ken up and said, "gee, forget about what's in the briefing. We'll back you up. We'll fight for you...."
But strangely, no one did. No wonder Nancy Spannaus said when she called Molly the day after Ken died, "I don't know if you ever want to see my face again."
A former PMR person once said to me of Ken, "we would have backed him. We would have stood behind him." Poor thing--she didn't quite realize the stuff of which the leadership is made....
did it ever occur to any of you clowns that husbands and wives sometimes don't get along? they call the end of a marriage d-i-v-o-r-c-e
Well, revenire, that they do. They call it divorce. They generally don't call it suicide, jumping from a very high overpass a mile from the PMR office with PMR I.D. in the car, minutes after reading Lyn's latest psychotic rant about you and your work.
That's what they generally don't call it.
Now, refresh my memory here, but I don't recall the Kronbergs being divorced. Talking about divorce. Being reported to be contemplating divorce.
No doubt the conventional wisdom in the org now is that Molly drove him to it. I mean, good Lord! We know (we do?) that she had been a Government Agent since at least 1988 (year of the Alexandria trial out of which Lyn emerged as as common criminal). The wonder is, not that Ken killed himself because his wife was a Government Agent, but that he waited 20 years to do it....
But there you see the logical kink in the conventional wisdom of the org. There's always a kink, a twist, something that doesn't quite work. The product of a fevered brain, the conventional wisdom always shows the marks of the infection of its origin.
i don't care what molly says now — ken isn't here to speak and anyone who comes around and claims to have "known" ken can go jump off a bridge for all i care
First--It's obvious, revenire, that you don't care what Molly says now. That's why you let the whole thing drop months ago, and haven't referred to it since.
Second--Ken isn't here--or at least, not wherever you are--but there are other ways of speaking. You have no idea what's "out there."
Third--Not quite sure about the "anyone who comes around and claims to have 'known' ken" part. Are you saying Molly didn't know Ken? Are you saying the various posters didn't know him?
I guess what you're saying is that anyone who claims to have known Ken and says that Ken didn't want to lick Lyn's boots any more is giving the org a bad name (as if it could get worse!) and therefore must be silenced.
And, as a final charitable thought, you wish they'd all jump off a bridge, every last nay-sayer.
Well, well, revenire. I must say, you've certainly made something of your life.
ENVOI
P.S. Don't worry, revenire, about my wasting hours poring over your posts and responding to them. I dash these things off in a matter of minutes.

05-16-2008, 05:41 PM

earnest_one Spooky People

Quote:
Originally Posted by borismaglev
:mad:
There are at least two recent vintage LaRouchie creeps -- revenire and howie's "resident LaRouchie" -- who display the sociopathic callousness of an assassin. Their "jumper" namecalling is especially chilling. These are the kinds of criminal mentalities that could have assassinated Jeremiah Duggan without flinching. The thought surprised me because, like most old-timers, when the news of Jeremiah's death broke, I could not believe that he had been assassinated -- the kinds of LC members I had known during my years of membership ruled out the possibility that anyone would be capable of committing murder.
And then come revenire and Howie's resident LaRouchie with their "jumper" taunts and I think: we ex-members have no idea what the psychological makeup of current members really is. Just as larouchetruth says that current members have no clue of what preceded them in the history of the org, in the same way we ex-members have no clue of what succeeded us.
Therefore, I revise my older naive opinion that LCers "could not have killed" Jeremiah. Revenire et al convince me that such a thing was not only possible but very likely.
I wish there were someone out there with enough legal knowledge to advise us how to proceed with legal action against LaRouche in both the Duggan and the Kronberg case.
 

As a non-member, albeit someone with extensive experience with NCLC-types in Europe and the States, dating back to the late 70s, I've had first-hand experience with members who appeared wildly psychotic and capable of virtually anything. I know little about the Carol/Chris White period other than what I've read (here and in the news).
But sleep deprivation, the constant pressure of "saving the world from immediate extinction" and like-minded themes can produce madness in almost anyone, even group madness. The NCLC is hardly the first group to have disintegrated under such "leadership".
In short, while there may be a "higher density" of murderous types in the org now, compared to the golden years, I "sensed" that there were plenty of fringe characters hanging around years ago -- wildly spooky types, enthralled with pseudo-threats (if not real threats) and hungry for violence (both psychological AND physical). Moreover, I think LAR controlled these types in an effort to control others.
Note that I stayed at Springwater in the mid-80s, with Dr. Moon, his wife, Robert Mclaughlin (now deceased), the Howards, and Roger M. They were a very fine group of people indeed, but some rather bizarre events transpired there (something to post at a later time, although I simply note that McLaughlin kidded me for years about the so-called assassination attempt on me).
As for the recent topic about LAR's "decomposition", pre-Beyond Psycho, I simply point interested people to the fascinating and brilliant study that Freud conducted (from a distance) on Dr. Schreber. Here we find a precise theory, backed by evidence, that paranoia is linked to suppressed homosexuality. The precise mechanisms at work are too complicated to go into now, but anyone with a serious interest in LAR's psychological makeup and what happened to him post-Chris/Carol White would surely benefit from a careful perusal of this famous piece of "science".
I posit that this is why it HAD to be Beyond Psyhco, because the existing case histories amply and ably accounted for his troubles. Simply my opinion, albeit carefully considered.

05-16-2008, 06:13 PM

eaglebeak

Beyond Psyche Beyond Psych was printed in fall 1973, but throughout the summer of 1973, and even before, it was discussed widely as Lyn's new method, and Lyn was applying it assiduously in "sessions" with the NEC, although the mother of all sessions was certainly Munchrath. (The final "h" is correct.)
Every Saturday night, the NEC would troop down to Morton Street, to Lyn's place in the Village, and undergo hours of psychological deconstruction by LaRouche.
A major focus was everyone else's sexual impotence (everyone but Lyn's...)
People were reduced to quivering ids--just how Lyn liked them best.
On Sunday mornings, you could count on the NEC members to be three-quarters crazy, ready to do anything, no matter how nuts, to prove their potency to Lyn.
Of course, the absurdity of this potency obsession on Lyn's part has been pointed out by larouchetruth, earnest one, and others.
I merely remark on it again--noting that it is the central theme of the Beyond Psych triptych, which is Beyond Psychoanalysis, The Case of Ludwig Feuerbach, and The Sexual Impotence of the Puerto Rican Socialist Party (a title to conjure with).
And as a sort of coda, The Passion and Second Coming of L.D. Trotsky, or whatever it was.
Once he starts talking, Lyn can't stop.
Once he starts writing, he can't stop.
One might suppose that assaults with words are his substitute for virility. That's certainly what I have thought for a very long time.

05-16-2008, 09:33 PM

xlcr4life

Quote:
Originally Posted by borismaglev
Wait a minute. Actual physical assaults were also a substitute for virility. I know for a fact that Carol left him because he actually used physical violence on him. Carol was too much of a lady to let is happen twice and too much of a lady to expose the creep publicly.

This particular part of LC history is worth loking into. When I first went to a National Conference this was something joked about by the members I was staying with at the time when I asked about people I met. The running joke was that a male LC member went up the leadership chain by givng his spouce or partner a good wacking to show how potent they are. There was mention of a borken arm by an NEC members wife as well as an NC in New Brunswick who did what we call today a "Bit*h Slap" of his wife with local members either seeing or hearing it in the office.

I want to assure everyone here that LC history IS read by LYM and LYMettes who wander in to this site. I have many emails over the years from members who have left or their friends and family who left who comment that by reading of events here and then asking questions and seeing the evasion , it started or made the process to exit so much easier. Every ex member has this sort of doubt that they are missing being part of something when they leave. To see what the whole lunacy is actually about and to see how they are merely the replacements for several versions of the same concerned , young and naive former members who wized and left up makes thngs much clearer and easier.
Take for instance what Ltruth was mentioning about how Tony Papert and Steve Komm were right at the beginning of the Columbia strike. It was never known by many currrent LYM that the guy in this picture
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8102520@N06/493069370/
inhaling carcinogens at a card table shrine has been doing this for almost 4 DECADES. Komm was a very smart guy who ends up literally in the gutter next to the busses. We later showed how his wife Connie is also doing card table shrines after joining in the early 1980s. The LPAC web site had a video of Connie which we posted here so people can see that after a "quarter century, she is working card table shrines for Lyn. That video was taken off the site pretty fast after we tried to drum up some more viewers for it.
Steve Fraser is a writer .
http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/174922
http://www.thenation.com/directory/bios/steve_fraser
http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/opinion/la-op-fraser9dec09,1,1306484.story
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

05-16-2008, 09:48 PM

eaglebeak

Modes of Violence

Quote:
Originally Posted by borismaglev
Wait a minute. Actual physical assaults were also a substitute for virility. I know for a fact that Carol left him because he actually used physical violence on him. Carol was too much of a lady to let is happen twice and too much of a lady to expose the creep publicly.

It's true that Lyn hit Carol on several occasions. But he dared do that only because he was bigger and stronger.
For the others, for the men in the org--the men on the NEC and NC, who were by far the majority of the "leadership"--Lyn would never have hit them.
He was and remains too much of a physical coward--but he certainly wanted to assault them, and that is what those sessions were.
He also encouraged NEC members and NC members to hit their wives--1974 was a period in which women came to the Natl Office with black eyes and broken arms, because Lyn in his sessions with the "leadership" was basically encouraging everyone to beat up on their "mother images."
But I continue to think that his principal weapon of assault is his endless, deadening, mind-destroying stream of words--and that's certainly what killed Ken Kronberg, as dead as if he had been clubbed or shot.

05-17-2008, 01:24 AM

eaglebeak

Sigh I have heard all those stories too--the Helga-Lyn stories--and to a great extent believe them.
There were some awfully interesting sources for the stories that Lyn accused Helga of lesbian affairs with Angelika and others, in particular in a spectacular eruption after the so-called "flechette" incident (the car Helga was being driven in blew a tire on the autobahn, and Lyn claimed it wasn't a blowout, it was the result of a "flechette" having been aimed at the tire....)
ANYhow, I have heard that when Helga, Angelika, et al. returned from that outing Lyn flipped his wig, because they hadn't informed him instantly of this Geo-Strategic Assassination Attempt against Helga....
In the course of the flipout, I am told, he accused Helga and Angelika of a lesbian affair, belabored the point rather luridly, and ultimately ran around waving a handgun and threatening to shoot himself.
My source on this is an eyebrow-raising one.

05-17-2008, 03:14 AM

eaglebeak

Duck! Here Come the Cranes of Ibykus Again!

Quote:
Originally Posted by borismaglev
He meets Helga in Munchrath and tries his ego stripping tactics on her. Helga's Id comes out and chews up and spits out his Transcendental Ego in no time. A deal is struck: Helga agrees not to tell the world that she tore his Transcendental Ego to shreds and he agrees to give Helga whatever she wants. The little Ugly Duckling of the provincial small New England town has become lunch for the Valkyrie. Duck flambee.

A masterwork, borismaglev!
One biographical detail overlooked--the moment at which first wife Janice brings into the world a son, Daniel/Danny LaRouche, and thereby finishes off the Transcendental Duckling's capacity to pose as a husband to her.
Duckling never recovers, dives into pit of faux Freudianism, re-emerges as Western world's foremost proponent of abortion, early and often. Just to be on the safe side.

05-17-2008, 03:36 AM

candor

Brilliant, borismaglev. Lyn in a nutshell, so to speak. Too bad human decency is a noumenon to the World's Greatest T.E.

05-17-2008, 06:20 AM

shadok

Duggan/Kronberg/legal actions

Quote:
Originally Posted by borismaglev
:mad:
I wish there were someone out there with enough legal knowledge to advise us how to proceed with legal action against LaRouche in both the Duggan and the Kronberg case.

The best way is to contact the Duggans and Kronbergs via their respective websites. They are at the front line of legal actions against larouche et al. For safety reasons I would advice you to post your email address on this board so you could be easily identified. They wouldn't want to deal with a larouchian undercover mole.

05-17-2008, 10:28 PM

localgreek

Quote:
Originally Posted by shadok
The best way is to contact the Duggans and Kronbergs via their respective websites. They are at the front line of legal actions against larouche et al. For safety reasons I would advice you to post your email address on this board so you could be easily identified. They wouldn't want to deal with a larouchian undercover mole.

==================
localgreek: I am a complete outsider here but I do hope that both the Duggans and the Kronbergs have contacted Jewish organizations in order to get some advice and help with their cases.
And the second thing is this: is there any illegality that the Larouche group are engaged in now? Many times credit card fraud has been mentioned; I assume this is in the past; then how do they get cash now; in a legal manner? what would that be then?

05-18-2008, 08:03 AM

shadok

Quote:
Originally Posted by borismaglev
:confused:
As for being "easily identified" on this board, we all have our reasons for anonymity (yourself included, I presume) in this context and its better not to pick at old scabs.

When I meant "identified", I didnt mean your real name per se (can be any email address of your choice) but as the poster on this board - which in itself suffices to identify you as "non-larouchian"... The only thing they can't fake are rational antilarouche arguments (their cover would eventually crack) ;-)
Then when/if you contact Molly or Erica, use that same email address.

Quote:
Originally Posted by localgreek
==================
localgreek: I am a complete outsider here but I do hope that both the Duggans and the Kronbergs have contacted Jewish organizations in order to get some advice and help with their cases.

As far as I know, their problems is that nobody care about larouche et al. That s how lar gets away with crime, even murder!!! So, in the end it s up to us, exmembers to convince anticult, jewish orgs etc about the dangers of this "infinitesimal" mvt....
shadok2@googlemail.com

05-18-2008, 05:34 PM

howie

http://www.ballot-access.org/2008/05/17/lyndon-larouche-organization-backs-hillary-clinton/
"Boomer Nemesis"? Gawd, they never cease to amaze me in terms of just how secluded they are into their own little world.

05-18-2008, 07:30 PM

candor

Hygiene Alert From howie's link:
"LaRouche spoke in a TV ad at the start of the 1988 Democratic national convention. He had dandruff on his shoulders."
Of course, Hillary is the echt Boomer, and her non-racist supporters are overwhelmingly the aged, pot-frazzled boomers who envy Barack for the youth and idealism which they once had - as well as for the fact that he is succeeding at bringing the change which they so miserably - like LaRouche - failed to effect.
By the way, who is keeping Broom Helga company these days?

05-19-2008, 08:55 AM

jimmy-o

Quote:
Originally Posted by borismaglev
LaRouche's verbal abuse of Helga was not in public (at least to my knowledge), but it was rather spectacular in private.

Not quite the same level of abuse, but I do recall a conference internal meeting in about 2004 where Lyn reduced Helga to tears. I think he was going on about the uselessness and pointlessness of the Europeans, but I was shocked to see Helgas reaction.

05-19-2008, 01:48 PM

localgreek

Quote:
Originally Posted by shadok


As far as I know, their problems is that nobody care about larouche et al. That s how lar gets away with crime, even murder!!! So, in the end it s up to us, exmembers to convince anticult, jewish orgs etc about the dangers of this "infinitesimal" mvt....
shadok2@googlemail.com

==================================
localgreek: If this is the case, and if there is little interest in this cult, it seems to me that publicizing and informing on illegalities is crucial. What folks here are doing is commendable. And the lobbying on behalf of Jeremiah and Ken must continue. However, wouldn't it be important to list and outline and collect all the illegalities that are taking place. How else to get these people in our society where cults are not outlawed? All that remains is transgression of the law.

05-19-2008, 09:04 PM

howie

Who writes this stuff? (Oh, wait. There's a by-line. And a quotation.)
http://www.larouchepac.com/news/2008/05/16/how-move-mountain.html
LaRouche-PAC Chairman Lyndon LaRouche called Hillary Clinton's 41-point smashing defeat of Barack Obama in West Virginia this past week, "the biggest event in world history in the last month."

05-20-2008, 07:32 AM

scrimscraw As phony as a $25 bill...

Quote:
Originally Posted by howie
Who writes this stuff? (Oh, wait. There's a by-line. And a quotation.)
http://www.larouchepac.com/news/2008/05/16/how-move-mountain.html->LaRouche-PAC Chairman Lyndon LaRouche called Hillary Clinton's 41-point smashing defeat of Barack Obama in West Virginia this past week, "the biggest event in world history in the last month."

A big event to be sure, but not quite as impressive as the graphic of the $25 dollar bill (!) at the end of the article with Lyn in the presidential oval. I guess he'll never be elected, but the LARpac Web gremlins can conjur up the semblance of prexy LHL on virtual money. Good work, kids! Have fun!

05-20-2008, 06:09 PM

xlcr4life

4 Attachment(s)

Quote:
Originally Posted by borismaglev
Sorry if I gave the wrong impression. I overheard her once in Stadtecke complaining to a roomful of 25-20 people that Lyn doesn't take baths and has a horrible body odor, especially his feet and socks. At other times she complained about his yellow teeth and his filthy soiled underwear. WHile in Germany at least, LaRouche ended up secretly rinsing his underpants before giving them to the staff to be laundered because he was too embarrassed by the brown soil.
LaRouche's verbal abuse of Helga was not in public (at least to my knowledge), but it was rather spectacular in private. From what I have been told (I was never present in any such occasion) he would scream at Helga accusing her of having sexual relations with Angelika and possibly another female (American, not German), and for lapsing back into flirting with Uwe Friesecke, her boyfriend before she started relations with LaRouche.

This stuff is too funny to keep out of the off Broadway play, "Spring Time for Larouche". I can see a scene where a lowly security peon at either Club Ibykus or LaroucheTown hangs up the laundry on an outdoor clothesline. The brown tee shirts do not faze the audience, but Lyn's underwear yields a pause from the audience. Instead of skidmarks, Lyn's drawers have little skidmarks of Nazi Swastikas on them.
Helga should be the one to talk about personal upkeep. I once asked a smart wag about what Helga was talking to him about at Club Ibykus. He remarked that he has no idea because her legs were so hairy that he was not right for hours. "This aint no First Lady material son. She should be "The Furst German" ".
Helga should complain about odor. She blew the doors off the Bonevilles with her legendary beer farts on many an occasion. With Helga in the back seet and poor Zeke driving, it was a LC version of "Driving Miss Crazy".
On Lyn's teeth, Helga is correct. We had to spend a good deal of money for cleaning as the coffee intoxication and pipe smoking took it's course. There should be a picture below.
Now if you were a regular field hand inthe LC with dental problems, tough luck. There are endless stories of LaroucheNoCare and one of them invovles a member who was from the Great White North who wore dentures at an early age. This was so sad to see because the dentures were ill fitting and he had no access to a proper fixture. This guy had to suffer for years and was using regular glues to keep everything in place. It was so bad that his teeth would fall out when he would be organising people . A former NC who left years ago finally had enough of this and took him to a dental clinic to get a proper set of dentures and supplies. After fighting with the LC to get some cash to pay for this, the NC left soon after. I have no idea about the member.
Besides an American girl there were also rumours of a German male security staffer and Helga. It seems that there was a whole other adventure going on in Europe at Helga's castle.
I thought that it was a joke about Larouche Cash. I guess this is how LYM and LYMettes are now paid. This is so ridiculous because the cult has the LYM and LYMettes singing "16 Tons" to complain about Al Gore's father while the LYM and LYMettes live in a company LaroucheTown, drive LaroucheMobiles, have LaroucheNoCare health insurance, pay a percentage of regional income as a LaroucheTax, raise money for LarouchePac and talk in LaroucheSpeak.
Someone should print up those 25 dollar bills and see if they can be given out at card table shrines so members can hit quota early and turn them in.
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

05-20-2008, 07:59 PM

boomer70

People often ask in this forum why people stay in the org. And usually the explanations that people give are not particularly flattering: fear of the outside world and psychological dependency are perhaps the most common. But I think also that another common reason is the recognition that the world desperately needs to be changed and that by staying in the org' one is doing >something about it, even perhaps the best work from the options available.
A corollary of this explanation, at least for me, is the question, 'What are you doing to change things?' I would very much appreciate it if people here would respond to this question. My answer to it is that I read a number of pol' blogs, and write on subjects which occur frequently in them; I do other politically-oriented writing; I am building an interface to California state legislative documents; I am building a new kind of forum for political discussion; I am learning Chinese; above all, I am doing what makes me happy, which I have come to see -- post LC -- as a key ingredient of productive work.

05-20-2008, 10:28 PM

poe

Only 3? Now that he has endorsed Obama, LaRouchePac has taken to calling John Edwards a "three time loser". How ironic is that?

05-20-2008, 10:32 PM

KosherSoze

Quote:
Originally Posted by xlcr4life


On Lyn's teeth, Helga is correct. We had to spend a good deal of money for cleaning as the coffee intoxication and pipe smoking took it's course. There should be a picture below.

I just had a look at that photo. Those teeth are legendarily bad. Indeed, they're so bad, they're British.

05-20-2008, 10:54 PM

boomer70

tossing the baby with the bathwater?

Quote:
Originally Posted by borismaglev
"Changing the world" is too "Promethean" for me, I discovered since I quit. Helping actual human beings face-to-face, "loving thy neighbor," this is the real hard stuff. "Changing the world" is a way of evading this real hard stuff. Just look how those who are inside the cult treat each other, day in and day out. Aborting your own baby is no way to "change the world." Neither is pressuring someone else to abort theirs.

is it possible to love an individual without loving the species?

05-20-2008, 11:07 PM

boomer70

photo's not doctored?

Quote:
Originally Posted by xlcr4life
On Lyn's teeth, Helga is correct. We had to spend a good deal of money for cleaning as the coffee intoxication and pipe smoking took it's course. There should be a picture below.

are you sure the photo's not doctored? i find it difficult to believe that L. would have so little self-respect.

05-20-2008, 11:35 PM

xlcr4life

Quote:
Originally Posted by boomer70
are you sure the photo's not doctored? i find it difficult to believe that L. would have so little self-respect.

Doctored? The only doctoring involved is a LaroucheNoCare MD who was paid for his or her services by sitting at his side and then signing their life away. Lyn for decades was a consumer of giga cups of coffee and smoking a pipe non stop. That was latet replaced by liters of Rheingau. I believe it took the German MDs to scare Lyn in slowing down the Rheingau as his heart was becoming a problem. This is also a madman who had polyps removed while in prison during a colonoscopy and had Warren H issue press releases about how this was an assasination attempt on his life.
The picture showed up years and years ago on the web and has become more of a downloaded star than Lyn himself.
Still, I can't help but think that the Fool's Gold backed Larouche 25 dollar bill will become the new standard. I want to believe that an insider who reads our stuff did that as a joke on the cult. But, being in the LC for a few years I think it for real. This could be those Rubles which the IDB was supposed to be based on. We will see if they get used in LaroucheTown to pay the rent for the Lym and the LYMettes at the end of the month.
I can't help but break out laughing at that 25 dollar bill with a smiling Lyn! This is the "Official Currency" for the Bizarro World. Why 25 dollars? Is the LaroucheBuck pegged to a magnum of Rheingau? Is this the replacement for the Euro when Helga overturns the treaty of Lisbon? How many LaroucheBucks were spent by BAE to bribe the House of Saud? Can LaroucheBucks be used to fill up a LaroucheMobile at Exxon on the way to a card table shrine?
Can you tip dancers at cheap airport strip clubs with LaroucheBucks? The dark and smoky atmosphere may be condusive for this.
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

05-20-2008, 11:54 PM

boomer70

Quote:
Originally Posted by xlcr4life
Doctored? The only doctoring involved is a LaroucheNoCare MD who was paid for his or her services by sitting at his side and then signing their life away. Lyn for decades was a consumer of giga cups of coffee and smoking a pipe non stop. T

i remember hearing/reading L. say once that a part of self-consciousness is a sense of how others are perceiving you. more and more i am becoming convinced that this type of character is simply self-deluded.

05-21-2008, 05:53 AM

yamabkad

As a kind of cruel joke I suspect larouche "supporters" on campuses etc will start printing these bills out and putting them in the jar. Maybe those guys from the videos with the tin-foil caps that outlarouched larouche will pick up on this.

05-21-2008, 07:27 AM

KosherSoze

Brother, can you spare a dimwit? Just checked out the $25. At first glance I thought the gent portrayed was Uncle Fester. But on closer inspection, I'd say the leaflet was advertising services for retirees - perhaps handheld alarms for people who fell over in the 1960s and can't get up. Or maybe a retirement village - 'Larouchepac' (just up the road from Quinnipiac, perhaps). From what I've heard from those who have been in the Great Leader's presence, he already exudes a distinct whiff of urine. Send your grumpy incontinent grandparents here. They'll feel at home from Day One.

05-21-2008, 07:58 AM

shadok

psy corner

Quote:
Originally Posted by boomer70
is it possible to love an individual without loving the species?

Yep, people do that all the time! In the org., it s the opposite: they "love" Mankind (aka "agape") but hate people, their neighbors/friends/family etc. It is easier to love "Mankind" (that is as an abstract idea) than loving your neighbor. Psychologist Alfred Adler wrote that somewhere once and his analysis on the "complex of superiority" syndrome is worth reading to understand the psychology of cult leaders, dictators or everyday bullies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by boomer70
People often ask in this forum why people stay in the org. And usually the explanations that people give are not particularly flattering: fear of the outside world and psychological dependency are perhaps the most common. But I think also that another common reason is the recognition that the world desperately needs to be changed and that by staying in the org' one is doing >something about it, even perhaps the best work from the options available.

People stay in the org. because they are told and believe that the world is black and white; it s either larouche or Hell... etc
The world is not black and white and there is no Hell on earth. It is no Heaven either and indeed leaving the org. does not imply not to be politically involved anymore or changing/improving our world. Quite the opposite! We have to separate the ideals/ideas we joined for and larouche. He betrayed them all his life. As I wrote once here on this board, the best way to be faithful to the ideals you joined for (and to yourself) is to leave the org. Don't throw out the baby with the bath water.

05-21-2008, 07:04 PM

xlcr4life

4 Attachment(s)

Quote:
Originally Posted by KosherSoze
Just checked out the $25. At first glance I thought the gent portrayed was Uncle Fester.

It does look like an Uncle Fester with glasses when viewed from a distance. I grew up on the TV show The Addams Family and know Uncle Fester. lyn is no Uncle Fester. Let us review some of the major differences between Lyn and Uncle Fester and see who did more for humanity.
To start off, Uncle Fester was paid to be onTV and his antics were viewed by millions of fans who laughed with him . Lyn paid millions to be on TV , was watched by mere thousands who laughed at him and his cult's antics.
Uncle Fester (Jackie Coogan) , had millions stolen from him by his parents while Lyn stole millions from parents and their elderly parents.
Uncle Fester married WW2 pin up Queen Betty Grable who helped soldiers defeat the German Nazis and expose the horrors of the Penemunde slave labor camp. Lyn married Helga Zepp whose work helped old German Nazis run for office with her as "Patriots for Germany" and clicked glasses to the Penemunde slave labor camp.
Uncle Fester's wife Betty Grable made a fantasy movie called "How to marry a millionaire". Lyn's wife Helga thinks she really married into a millionaire fantasy and will be surprised that there is no money for her when Lyn croaks.
When Betty Grable's car pulled to a stop, everyone jumped to open the door for her and longed for a whiff of her perfume.. When Helga's car comes to a stop, everyone leaps out of the car to escape a vicious and legendary beer fart of hers.
Uncle Fester gives off energy to light up a room so people can see clearly . Lyn sucks up the energy and spews lunacy into a room .
There should be some pictures of everyone below and there is an interesting picture of Helga with her very own card table shrine in Germany. I can't make out the detail, but is she holding some LaroucheBucks or her own version?
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

05-21-2008, 07:21 PM

borisbad

I certainly concur that the typical autocrat, whether fascist, communist or otherwise always couches their believfs in the most magnamimous terms of helping makind or at least some portion of mankind, i.e. Aryans, workers, some other group, or what not. The Communists claimed they were helping workers while preventing independent labor unions, imprisoning dissidents, etc. We already know that the Nazis were doing the world good by eliminating Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, etc.
Sometimes sacrifice for a great good is worthwhile, and certainly soldiers, Peace Corps volunteers, religious figures, etc. often give up material comforts and even families for what they consider a greater good. LaRouche is a typical authoritarian personality who believes he is the sole repository of knowledge of the "public good."
Quite honestly, humanity has survived for millions of years, plodding along. Doesn't mean we have to trust the judgment of our current political leadership or accept current economic policies, but to believe that LaRouche is the only way out of a "new dark ages" crisis which he has forecasted continuously for the past forty years is ludicrious.

05-21-2008, 07:29 PM

borisbad

1 Attachment(s) Uncle Fester I don't think LaRouche has any of the humor possessed by Jackie Coogan or his character, Uncle Fester. Perhaps he might appear more akin to the Christopher Lloyd version of Uncle Fester from the movie version.Attachment 95

05-21-2008, 07:48 PM

boomer70

Quote:
Originally Posted by shadok
People stay in the org. because they are told and believe that the world is black and white; it s either larouche or Hell... etc

i would still like to hear what people are doing by way of pol' activity.

05-22-2008, 03:31 PM

borisbad

I just came across a copy of The Case Against Walter Lippman in my archives. I should attempt to find a way to print this online, perhaps I will get it on my blog. In it, LaRouche describes his attitude towards the great FDR as of 1977. He writes: "Roosevelt by using corporatist methods-e.g., the NRA-and by emulating the Hitler regime's Arbeitsdienst in forms such as the WPA, CCC, and so forth, took credit for the autocannibalistic process of modest recovery of 1933-1937, and called the whole unwholesome mass the "New Deal...
It is a wreched delusion to imagine that Roosevelt's policies in any significant way contributed to the economic recovery during the middle of the 1930s."
So LaRouche if you deemed it a wretched delusion to imagine that Roosevelt contributed to the recovery in the 1930s then who is suffering from such delusions today? If LaRouche described FDR's New Deal as corporatism back in 1977, what changed in his analysis today? Did he become smarter? Or did he simply adapt his views to changing political circumstances since he was no longer presenting a left of CPUSA viewpoint as he was doing in the 70s? Or could he simply be wrong, either then or now? That is a question of course he would never let his followers suggest? Either he was right when he called Roosevelt a fascist who did not solve the economic problems until WWII occurred, or he is right when he calls Roosevelt the savior of our nation and the world. Can't have it both ways

05-22-2008, 04:49 PM

scrimscraw

An online carton of books

Quote:
Originally Posted by borisbad
I just came across a copy of The Case Against Walter Lippman in my archives. I should attempt to find a way to print this online, perhaps I will get it on my blog.

For the time being, at least, all of LHL's books are still online at the "old" WLYM site. Link here. The yutes are putting up a new site, which is in progress, and the books aren't available there so far. Get 'em while you can. I feel like it is a kind of public service for the LYM to make these available. Now if they would only read them with some comprehension, they might persuade themselves to exit the org.

05-22-2008, 06:11 PM

xlcr4life

4 Attachment(s)

Quote:
Originally Posted by borisbad

I just came across a copy of The Case Against Walter Lippman in my archives. I should attempt to find a way to print this online, perhaps I will get it on my blog. In it, LaRouche describes his attitude towards the great FDR as of 1977. He writes: "Roosevelt by using corporatist methods-e.g., the NRA-and by emulating the Hitler regime's Arbeitsdienst in forms such as the WPA, CCC, and so forth, took credit for the autocannibalistic process of modest recovery of 1933-1937, and called the whole unwholesome mass the "New Deal...
It is a wreched delusion to imagine that Roosevelt's policies in any significant way contributed to the economic recovery during the middle of the 1930s."
So LaRouche if you deemed it a wretched delusion to imagine that Roosevelt contributed to the recovery in the 1930s then who is suffering from such delusions today? If LaRouche described FDR's New Deal as corporatism back in 1977, what changed in his analysis today?


The Lippman book
http://wlym.com/pdf/iclc/walterlippman.pdf
was written in 1977. That is about 3 years before Hulan Jack began to appear with Lyn at conferences and open doors for us. Hulan praised FDR in his speeches and in his autobiography we published. Like everything else in LC life, it quickly dissapeared and everything in it vanished as you can't use the old boogeyman on new blood. After several rounds of new delusions and enemies, you can start your moring briefing like you were in a scene with Bill Murray in the movie "Ground Hog Day"
Lyn has completed his mission on Earth by sucessfully predicting everything there is to predict to ever increasingly confused LYM and LYMettes.
Who will win the card table shrine sweepstakes between Lyn and Helga ?
Who will win a years supply of LaroucheBucks for still following this lunacy?
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

05-22-2008, 06:16 PM

borisbad

Thanks Scrimscraw for the link. I knew they had the Campaigners on line but didn't see the other books, except of course, the nefarious Dope Inc.

05-22-2008, 08:05 PM

poe

Fdr

Quote:
Originally Posted by borisbad
I just came across a copy of The Case Against Walter Lippman in my archives. I should attempt to find a way to print this online, perhaps I will get it on my blog. In it, LaRouche describes his attitude towards the great FDR as of 1977. He writes: "Roosevelt by using corporatist methods-e.g., the NRA-and by emulating the Hitler regime's Arbeitsdienst in forms such as the WPA, CCC, and so forth, took credit for the autocannibalistic process of modest recovery of 1933-1937, and called the whole unwholesome mass the "New Deal...
It is a wreched delusion to imagine that Roosevelt's policies in any significant way contributed to the economic recovery during the middle of the 1930s."
So LaRouche if you deemed it a wretched delusion to imagine that Roosevelt contributed to the recovery in the 1930s then who is suffering from such delusions today? If LaRouche described FDR's New Deal as corporatism back in 1977, what changed in his analysis today? Did he become smarter? Or did he simply adapt his views to changing political circumstances since he was no longer presenting a left of CPUSA viewpoint as he was doing in the 70s? Or could he simply be wrong, either then or now? That is a question of course he would never let his followers suggest? Either he was right when he called Roosevelt a fascist who did not solve the economic problems until WWII occurred, or he is right when he calls Roosevelt the savior of our nation and the world. Can't have it both ways

Actually, yes you can have it both ways.The whole time I was in the organization ( the 80's and 90's), Lyn always differentiated between Roosevelt's early policies and the WWII mobilization. He always criticized the early policies as being copied from Mussolini and praised the war mobe as having created America as an industrial superpower. At various times he would emphasize one aspect of FDR more than another, depending upon what the organization was promoting at the time, but Lyn always did distinguish between the two. CCC = bad. Rosy the Riveter = great.

05-23-2008, 01:18 PM

yamabkad

Yeah, except I remember a semi-recent paper (maybe from a year ago, so recent relative to 80's-90's) where the CCC and related alphabet soup projects were given passive praise and little differentiation from the war-effort drive. Not to mention the fact that LYM organizers will practically attack you if you tell them that it was the war that saved the US and not FDR's noospherically attuned mind, whose only blemish is it's oligarchical affiliations. (the same that are never mentioned)
I think it is utterly pointless to discuss larouche "policy" in any political sense, because that would be granting it a seriousness which it simply doesn't deserve. The seriousness the L org. deserves is a serious look into its finances and treatment of members, ahem, volunteers.

05-23-2008, 04:11 PM

scrimscraw

A Real Nightmare I have to quit reading this board right before I go to bed. Last night I dreamt (for what felt like all night) that I and a bunch of other people went as tourists to LHL's estate. Lyn was there, oddly enough in a shiny green sport coat, acting paranoid, and rushing to stare out windows with a pistol in each hand. Complete with yellow teeth, too. Shudder. :eek:

05-23-2008, 05:18 PM

earnest_one

Shooting Blanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by scrimscraw
I have to quit reading this board right before I go to bed. Last night I dreamt (for what felt like all night) that I and a bunch of other people went as tourists to LHL's estate. Lyn was there, oddly enough in a shiny green sport coat, acting paranoid, and rushing to stare out windows with a pistol in each hand. Complete with yellow teeth, too. Shudder. :eek:

Two guns a blazing! Don't worry. The old man is shooting blanks these days.
Or they are pop guns with corks fashioned from his left over wine bottles. Cone corks. Inserted with a spiral twist.
The machine tool principle is used to manufacture the cork-cones. Lasers too. High tech all the way. The basement people (sic) are making them. Cork it Baby.

05-23-2008, 05:19 PM

xlcr4life

4 Attachment(s)

Quote:
Originally Posted by yamabkad
->I think it is utterly pointless to discuss larouche "policy" in any political sense, because that would be granting it a seriousness which it simply doesn't deserve. The seriousness the L org. deserves is a serious look into its finances and treatment of members, ahem, volunteers.


The easiest way to figure all of this out is to just undertsand that Lyn's cheap parlor trick is that he can be anywhere he needs to be at that moment. Lyn had nothing to say about Black leaders except how impotent they were and are until we wanted the Black Rev demographic and now MLK was on a first name basis with Lyn as "Martin". FDR was part of the "Patrician Roosevelt" family and FDR delivered the US to the Rockefellers when we were calling up far right wing lists who hated FDR for being a socialist. When Hulan Jack started off his talks about how great FDR was, Lyn had to out do Hulan to be the FDR champ. WHen Richie Freeman stumbled about FDR and the war build up, Lyn ripped him a new A hole in front of the Sterling Virgina National Conference. When I first joined in the 1976 campaign era, FDR and the CCC was a corporatism/fascist plot which now was showing it's head under David Rockefeller and the Trilateral Commission.

Yamabkad is making a great point and I have some pix and video to show you how the cheap parlor tricks work. More importantly, as Yamabkad asks what happens to a member who spends their adult life in the cult?
Before I start, I have to apologize for blocking and overlooking how LaroucheBucks are going to be used at card table shrines. It seems that the operating strategy is that since Lyn has commanded over 250 million dollars to elevate himself as saviour of the world, and the world has called him bat sh*t crazy and his cult creepy, "what is to be done"? The best I can detect is to just give the crap away and use LaroucheBucks and other valuable prizes to get a person to jump in one of those white LaroucheVans and go to a LYM/LYMette CLubhouse/soup Kitchen .
Check out this from:
http://www.spectator.org/blogger_comments.asp?BlogID=12809
Blog:
The Latest LaRouche Objective - Tuesday, May 20, 2008 @ 6:24:53 PM
Passing through a Metro station, I was accosted by some LaRouchies handing out fliers about a webcast or some such by their fearless leader. I took the flier, gave them a look that was equal parts amusement and bemusement, and kept walking. One of them shouted after me, "With your support the Washingtion Nationals will win the Super Bowl this year! Are you with me? Do I need to get you free tickets to be with me?"

Now on to the business at hand. If you remember last year there was a controversy with a NJ elected official and the cult. Assemblyman Johnson turned out to have given money to the cult and quickly found himself having his sanity questioned. There are two things to check out from this article.
http://www.insidebergen.com/read/142/PLAYING-THE-RACE-CARD-AGAIN-JOHNSON-S-LaROUCHE-FOLLOWERS-HAND-OUT-FLIERS-CLAIMING-THE-RECORD-FERRIERO-and-ADL-are-LYNCHING-BLACK-ELECTED-OFFICIAL-

This is an article about the cult attending a meeting and "supporting" their former piggy bank. Read the flier and the article to see how the cult can issue a leaflett about racism and a year later, have Lyn scream at the LYM and LYMettes about Obama's family swinging from trees. The flier is the usual lunacy with the ADL now lynching Blacks who support Lyn! This stuff never changes .
Now think about how the cult is now a best friend of Hillary and see the picture of a young and naive LYM passing out those leafletts and read his sign. The leaflet at one time was reported to have been written by Nancy Guice. Keep that name fresh in your memory
Nancy Guice and her husband are two card table shriners with Nancy spending more time in the boiler room and Matt spending his time in the great outdoors. They both really are nice people according to the emails sent to me from people who are shocked at how they ended up. In the cult you ar a "volunteer" with a meager stipend of a few bucks and a never ending drifter lifestyle from one hovel to another. In looking in a place like opensecrets.com we find that these two, with a few bucks a week seemed to have signed over thousands to Lyn.
GUICE, NANCY
RIDGEFIELD PARK,NJ 07660 HSDI/MEMBER 10/29/03 $1,000 LaRouche, Lyndon H Jr (D)
GUICE, NANCY
RIDGEFIELD PARK,NJ 07660 HSDI/MEMBER 11/5/03 $1,000 LaRouche, Lyndon H Jr (D)

GUICE, MATTHEW
RIDGEFIELD PARK,NJ 07660 HSDI/SALES 10/29/03 $1,000 LaRouche, Lyndon H Jr (D)
GUICE, MATTHEW
RIDGEFIELD PARK,NJ 07660 HSDI/SALES 11/5/03 $1,000 LaRouche, Lyndon H Jr (D)
GUICE, MATTHEW
RIDGEFIELD PARK,NJ 07660 HSDI 5/21/96 $250 Larouche,

Now what does Matt get for his thirty years of devotion, fundraising and signing over whatever money he and Nancy have as they get older and hit their 60s ? In June of 2006 I found an article in a Morristown NJ newspaper about how Matt was doing a tour of outerlying NJ post Offices and from the way the article was written, he may have been sleeping in the LaroucheMobile between setting up card table shrines .
"Matt Guice is an audio technician by profession. But these days, the 55-year-old Ridgefield man is working for Lyndon LaRouche, one of the zanier of the perennial presidential candidates. Guice is making the rounds and camping out for a day outside post offices in Morris County telling all who stop by about the evils of the current presidential administration.
Matt would now be 57 and Nancy a few years younger. We fast forward a bit and move to Hoboken NJ where this very disturbing video and picture appears on this site.
http://hoboken411.com/archives/3941
I first looked the picture and had no idea who the person who looked like George Bush was . at the card table shrine. The guy looked real bad with frumpy, Goodwill clothes and a beaten down look on his face.
I played the video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjJkhS0WdVY
and as soon as I heard the voice I said to myself, OMG, that's Matt Guice! I met Matt decades ago at a Virginia national conference and he was a hot shot organiser who pulled in a lot of money at airports and DMV deployments. Virtually every leader he knows has left the cult years ago and he is still relegated to card table shrines. I can't figure out the other gray haired member in the beginning. If anyone has a guess please post. Note that in 2006 there was plenty of printed material and the FDR lapel button.
The lunacy of this is that Matt has been warning about the collapse of the world economy and is doing that in Hoboken NJ which has been rebuilt from the ground up with billions of dollars in construction and projects. Matt will be 60 years old very soon and if you remember members when they were in their 20s and see them now, it reallly bums you out. This Memorial Day weekend I have time to honor troops, put up a flag in the house I own, have a few days off to lounge around , break out the BBQ and enjoy time with my kids. Matt and Nancy may get to eat a few 99 cent a pack hot dogs from the local Pathmark, fried on their stove before having to hit the streets and the phones to continue this never ending life sucking lunacy they made the mistake of not leaving.
Lyn had the ride of his life, driving over the last few remaining Matt and Nancys before they get put out to pasture. The best Matt and Nancy can get is a LaroucheBuck with a few extra zeros after Three Decades of loyal service.
There should be pictures below of Matt and a picture of Lyn with a beard as well as a LYM with an anti Hillary sign from just last year. The flier PDF is too big to post here, so go to the Inside Bergen site and you can read it there.

05-23-2008, 05:39 PM

scrimscraw Mutt and Jeff

Quote:
Originally Posted by xlcr4life
I played the video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjJkhS0WdVY
and as soon as I heard the voice I said to myself, OMG, that's Matt Guice! I met Matt decades ago at a Virginia national conference and he was a hot shot organiser who pulled in a lot of money at airports and DMV deployments. Virtually every leader he knows has left the cult years ago and he is still relegated to card table shrines. I can't figure out the other gray haired member in the beginning. If anyone has a guess please post.

Hmm. The other gray-haired guy kinda looks like Jeff Steinberg. Could it be? ;)

05-23-2008, 11:45 PM

candor

Some of the yutes are imitating Paulie Walnuts before the day's deployment, "this ain't a real breakfast," so they have started collecting more LaRouche bucks:

It ain't a real political organization, LaRouche ain't a real intellect, but it is a real cult.
Kids, watch out for the return of any comets ...

05-24-2008, 01:23 AM

poe

More Hillarity LaRouchePac's latest reason to nominate Hillary ( http://www.larouchepac.com/news/2008/05/23/will-obama-reject-pinochet-team.html ) is that Obama is under the evil influence of Anthony Lake. This is, of course, the same Anthony Lake that was Bill Clinton's National Security Advisor during his first term. That may actually be a good reason for Barack to dump Lake, but it sure isn't a reason for eight more years of the Clintons.

05-24-2008, 08:03 AM

scrimscraw

Everyone's a winner

Quote:
Originally Posted by poe
LaRouchePac's latest reason to nominate Hillary ( http://www.larouchepac.com/news/2008/05/23/will-obama-reject-pinochet-team.html ) is that Obama is under the evil influence of Anthony Lake. This is, of course, the same Anthony Lake that was Bill Clinton's National Security Advisor during his first term. That may actually be a good reason for Barack to dump Lake, but it sure isn't a reason for eight more years of the Clintons.

I'd suggest that we keep in mind that the org's identification of itself with the Democratic Party has been largely an opportunistic strategy that has allowed it to use a "left" cover to sow mischief among the Dems.
If, as Xlcr and others have contended, the LC has received funding to bark at the heels of various Demo candidates (and Demo power players), then we should view the LC's cheering of someone (say, Hillary) or condemning of someone (say, Obama), as moves that mainly make sense in some fashion totally divorced from the LC's apparent reasons. Those candidates whom the LC "supports" are injured by being associated with the LC. The candidates whom the LC "condemns" are brushed with whatever "tar" that the LC can fling at them.
The end result is that the LC undercuts both Demo front-runners and does its best to clear the field for someone like Bloomberg, who if nominated would "prove" Lyn's amazing powers of precognition.
And if some other disaster overtakes all of this, it is still a win-win situation for LHL and the LC, as that would lend credence to the "world is ending" wolf-crying that is the LC's stock in trade.
Well done.

05-24-2008, 02:56 PM

localgreek

[QUOTE=shadok;349892]Yep, people do that all the time! In the org., it s the opposite: they "love" Mankind (aka "agape") but hate people, their neighbors/friends/family etc. It is easier to love "Mankind" (that is as an abstract idea) than loving your neighbor. Psychologist Alfred Adler wrote that somewhere once and his analysis on the "complex of superiority" syndrome is worth reading to understand the psychology of cult leaders, dictators or everyday bullies.
===================
Localgreek: excellent observation Shadok; I have noted that about the people in this cult; lots of talk about mankind, and the 'human' and in the meantime the membership lives like workers in Nazi forced labour factories or in Communist kolhozes. I still have real trouble understanding how they think that is alright, and that is 'human' and that is a role model for what the rest of us want. God help us from the likes of the Larouche.

05-24-2008, 02:58 PM

localgreek

Ah the Hated Mother! Is there anyone who might be able to point me to an article dealing with Larouche's contempt for the mother figure.
I don't want to spend any money on his cult, so an online article is preferable. Thanks.

05-24-2008, 03:42 PM

eaglebeak

The Beyond Psychoanalysis series by Lyn is the best in that regard--from 1973 and 1974--it is probably available through laroucheplanet. It certainly should be--
Beyond Psychoanalysis
The Case of Ludwig Feuerbach
The Sexual Impotence of the Puerto Rican Socialist Party
All by LaRouche--"Lyn Marcus" was his nom de plume/guerre at the time. All published originally in The Campaigner.
All batsh*t crazy, and all unified around a rather startling hatred of women, of women as mothers, and of families. The Mother Figure is the Witch Woman lurking in the sub, un, or preconscious, waiting to erupt and take over the helpless ego.
LaRouche raves about the Mother Figure, the Pit, the Id, women's supposed unrelenting hostility to men and to the "outside world" (men represent reality, women represent dark magic).
What a banana! Anyhow, that all should be available online.
If not, I urge our friends at larouche planet to make them available.
They may also be available through the LYM website(s), but not through Dynamis,the current LYM "theoretical" publication.
What's going on with Lyn is not so much contempt for the Mother Figure as fear of it, and of women.
Fear is generally what's going on with Lyn--fear of women, of gays, of Jews, of Brits, of the college-educated, of any expert in any field, and of the skeptic, inside or outside the org, who looks at Lyn with eyebrow raised.
Fear was what drove Lyn in 1974 to announce that the KGB, CIA, British Intelligence, etc. (I don't think he included the Mossad back then, can't think why not), frogmen, etc., were out to kill him, and that he therefore needed total fulltime security protection and a "safehouse" to live in.
The man never went out alone on the streets again. Imagine that! And no one wanted to kill him (except perhaps his nearest and dearest).
For 34 years he's been screaming that he's under threat, in danger, on a hit list, blah blah, and he hasn't so far had even a scratch to show for it. Except of course for that very traumatic prison colonoscopy we all heard about.
Ken Kronberg used to tell a funny story about the then-landlord for WorldComp (this was in 1989) asking how on earth the org could allow Lyn to put out anything so absurd, so mortifying, as that series of press releases on assassination by colonoscopy.
Somehow, those press releases proved, if there were any doubt, that LaRouche was simply out of his mind.
Yes indeedy, fear's the word. Not contempt. The contempt is a pose to cover the all-consuming fear.

05-24-2008, 04:26 PM

borisbad

Sacrifice for the greater good [quote=localgreek;350193]

Quote:
Originally Posted by shadok
->Yep, people do that all the time! In the org., it s the opposite: they "love" Mankind (aka "agape") but hate people, their neighbors/friends/family etc. It is easier to love "Mankind" (that is as an abstract idea) than loving your neighbor. Psychologist Alfred Adler wrote that somewhere once and his analysis on the "complex of superiority" syndrome is worth reading to understand the psychology of cult leaders, dictators or everyday bullies.
===================
Localgreek: excellent observation Shadok; I have noted that about the people in this cult; lots of talk about mankind, and the 'human' and in the meantime the membership lives like workers in Nazi forced labour factories or in Communist kolhozes. I still have real trouble understanding how they think that is alright, and that is 'human' and that is a role model for what the rest of us want. God help us from the likes of the Larouche.

Dear Localgreek:
The way that LaRouche manages to keep the slaves in line is by talking up the nobility of sacrifice to the members. Working for $5/week and the right to free porridge for meals is motivated, not by comparing it to life in the gulags, but the inspirational figures like George Washington leading his men at Valley Forge. The twister for LaRouche and others of his kind is that, unlike people like Washington, LaRouche doesn't live in the trenches with his troops like Washington did, he doesn't cross the frozen Delaware River on Christmas Eve, he's rather more like the Hessian mercenaries drinking his Rheingau in the comfort of heated quarters on Christmas Eve. The only comparison with someone like George W. is that in both cases the troops are "working" on Christmas Eve.

05-24-2008, 05:10 PM

localgreek

[QUOTE=borisbad;350200][quote=localgreek;350193]

===============
Localgreek: Yes, Borisbad, his hypocrisy is sickening but that is the case with all authoritarian despots; this bad excuse for a human has, at least from my readings of his background, not seen a moment of real hardship; he did not see action in the War; he comes from a suburban milieu--food on the table, access to education--which he was too spoilt (or mentally ill) to embark upon, and now he pontificates to a desperately deluded crew, still never once working seriously for a living. What does he know about factory work? or unemployment? or war? or concentration camps? or the gulag? or even illness? You are, of course, right; he doesn't live in the trenches; and when I have mentioned that to Larouche people the reply I received was that he is "poor" does not "own" his house, that it is the property of someone else who "allows him to live in it." What I find hard is that he may evade true justice; he has lived long and many lives have been broken.

05-24-2008, 05:11 PM

scrimscraw

Primary sources

Quote:
Originally Posted by eaglebeak
->The Beyond Psychoanalysis series by Lyn is the best in that regard--from 1973 and 1974--it is probably available through laroucheplanet. It certainly should be--
Beyond Psychoanalysis
The Case of Ludwig Feuerbach
The Sexual Impotence of the Puerto Rican Socialist Party
All by LaRouche--"Lyn Marcus" was his nom de plume/guerre at the time. All published originally in The Campaigner.
All batsh*t crazy, and all unified around a rather startling hatred of women, of women as mothers, and of families. The Mother Figure is the Witch Woman lurking in the sub, un, or preconscious, waiting to erupt and take over the helpless ego.

Here they are as PDFs:
Beyond Psychoanalysis http://wlym.com/PDF-68-76/CAM7309.pdf
The Case of Ludwig Feuerbach http://wlym.com/PDF-68-76/CAM7312.pdf
The Sexual Impotence of the Puerto Rican Socialist Party http://wlym.com/PDF-68-76/CAM7311.pdf

05-24-2008, 08:33 PM

xlcr4life

40 years for Larouche

Quote:
Originally Posted by scrimscraw
->Hmm. The other gray-haired guy kinda looks like Jeff Steinberg. Could it be? ;)

The inbox reports that the person on the video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjJkhS0WdVY
is a gray haired Steve Komm! I couldn't freeze the picture and get a clear view, but now it all makes sense. Watching this video a few times is really sad when you think about how Lyn has taken two pretty bright guys in their 20s and kept them outdoors for decades so they have been weathered by the elements to an almost unrecognizable form.
LYM and LYMettes have no idea of who Steve Komm is and would be surprised that he was an original founding member of the SDS Labor Committee. Thus, he has been inside this nuthouse and outside in the streets for 4 decades!.
Here is something for sale from that era to show how far down the ladder he has tumbled.
http://209.85.165.104/search?hl=en&q=cache:WO8uXaNmH_sJ:http://www.antiqbook.com/boox/bibman/57446.shtml

PAPPERT, TONY, TOM MOORE AND STEVE KOMM An Outsider Looks at the High School Movement: What Does the High School Movement Need to Win?
New York: Self-published, ca. late-1960s. 8 1/2 x 11 in. Stapled mimeographed sheets. 5 p. + 2-page appendix. The authors are identified as members of Columbia SDS and the NYC SDS Labor Committee.
Offered for US$ 50.00 by: Bibliomania - Book number: 57446
See more books from our catalog: New Left

I have another picture of Steve on a NYC gutter smiling as he inhales the toxic fumes from a NYC bus, diesel trucks and gas cars which I have posted in the past. Every day the same thing, over and over and over with another crazy briefing, more money to be raised, more end of the world scenarios which only can be thwarted by stopping the British. The inbox also said that Steve's mother is British which kinda shows how this lunacy can take a gifted math student out of college and have him spend 4 decades of his adult life , babbling on street corners and never see the lunacy of Lyn's endless mental condition about mothers, Jews and the British, which is what Steve's family DNA is!
Steve went through every single lunatic twist and turn of Lyn and the LC and never bothered, as far as I can tell, to ask "Why?".
The one theme I have been emailed voer and over for the past 5 or so years is the shock ex members have when they run into a former member they know who is still in after they left 20 or 25 or more years ago. In every case I get the sent the same thing around the country that what they thought was a bum babbling on a street corner in shabby clothes, with bad teeth and gray or no hair was someone they knew from the LC decades ago. Everyone offers to buy them a meal, but they rather give some brieifing about how Lyn is secretly running the world and how important HE is.
Can a LYM or LYMette please put that video of Steve's wife Connie back up on LPAC? She has 25 years going in this and deserves equal time.
The world Lyn runs is the Bizarro and it aint a secret to people who read these posts.
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

05-24-2008, 09:52 PM

scrimscraw

Out, Out! Damn Shultz...er, spot!

Quote:
Originally Posted by borismaglev
->To localgreek: Just posted on larouchepac, the following rant by LaRouche answers all you might want to know about his obsession with the "mother figure."

Whoa, Nelly! I guess this is supposed to be Shakespearean, except that Shakespeare didn't try to shoehorn in Felix Rohatyn and George Shultz and he didn't end his dramatic speeches with Three Point Plans for saving the world.

05-25-2008, 01:50 PM

xlcr4life

Quote:
Originally Posted by xlcr4life
->The inbox also said that Steve's mother is British which kinda shows how this lunacy can take a gifted math student out of college and have him spend 4 decades of his adult life , babbling on street corners and never see the lunacy of Lyn's endless mental condition about mothers, Jews and the British, which is what Steve's family DNA is!

A slight correction here as we have some mother's mixed up.
Tony Papert's mother is the mother who is British, not Komm's
That makes even more sense as Papert is so off the wall that it goes beyond just being cult comedy. Papert fits right into Lyn's back pocket as he can spend his entire life having problems with his mother, the British and look up to Lyn as that Father figure perhaps to replace something pretty haunting to him.
There is a bit more deeper and darker parts of Papert's family history which those of you who know, understand Papert and why he does what he does.
Steve, you should have listened to your mother and maybe you wouldn't still be next to the gutter after 4 decades of this farce.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjJkhS0WdVY
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

05-25-2008, 08:09 PM

xlcr4life

Big article in today's Washing Post on larouche's former VP running mate and the person who provided the game plan to rehab Lyn's PR after the convictions for tax fraud and stealing millions. Rev Bevel was convicted of sexual crimes recently and is one more story to add to the pile of misery which accompanies anyone or anything which comes in contact with Lyn and the cult.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/20/AR2008052001482.html?hpid=topnews
One wonders how Bevel was was presented to the LYM , LYMettes and deadenders. But since the whole lunacy is based on endless mobes and lunacy, it goes to the back of the line. Strange that Rev Bevel is as forgotten by the cult as everyone else tends to be, but not expected.
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

05-26-2008, 01:30 AM

eaglebeak

LaRouche and the Rev Bev What I've gathered is that the LaRouche org line on the Rev Bev (former civil rights hero and also, weirdly enough, former LaRouche running mate James Bevel) and his conviction on charges of incest and child abuse against one of his daughters, is as follows:
The daughter is using faked "recovered memories" to attack her father.
Of course, this doesn't explain why three or four other daughters ALSO remember their father's abusing them.
Nor does it explain why the mother of the daughter at the center of the Leesburg, Va case recalls that the Rev Bev wanted her to sleep with their son, to "orientate" him sexually.
Nor does it explain the Rev Bev's well-known--to the LaRouche org--obsessions with sex. (Nancy Spannaus, for example, used to turn beet red every time Bevel showed up in Editorial and opened his mouth. Which was once a week at least, because the Rev Bev had a Rev Bev column in New Federalist)
Finally, bear in mind that the LaRouche org knew the daughter in question very well (she was in Leesburg living with the Rev while he was LaRouche's vice presidential running mate)--I knew her well, and she was a lovely person, and is a courageous one.
So the fact that the org would slander her as trying to parlay fake recovered memories into a character assassination of her father is grotesque. Reminds me of the org's position on how Ken Kronberg killed himself because Molly Kronberg was (a) a donor to the 2004 Bush campaign, (b) responsible for sending LaRouche to Federal prison in the 1988-89 Alexandria trial, and (c) a Government agent since 1988.
In other words, blame the victim.
It also reminds me of the way LaRouche blamed Erica Duggan for supposedly driving Jeremiah Duggan to "suicide," when it was obvious to anyone with half a brain that the culprit in the case was the LaRouche org in Wiesbaden, possibly LYMers in particular.
Blame the victim.
I mean, it's no coincidence, as they say, that the entire LaRouche org in its headquarters of Wiesbaden, Germany, plus throughout its German locals, fell apart within three years of Duggan's death.
Anyhow, with their usual petty, mean-spirited viciousness, the LaRouche org will now blame Jamese Bevel (she's changed her name, and her new name is in the Washington Post mag article) for what her father did to her.
Again--blame the victim.
The absolutely best thing about the WaPo mag article is that it barely mentions LaRouche. After all, Bevel was somebody. LaRouche was not.

05-26-2008, 02:16 AM

eaglebeak

Goodness, Gracious, Great Balls o' Fire! We have already read Lyn's latest foray into acute senile dementia--I refer to the "Lady Gorgon MacBeth" release.
[By the way, when WILL Lyn learn to spell Macbeth the way Shakespeare did? Someone tells me that Lyn claims he's going back to the original Scottish--but since the real Macbeth flourished in the 11th century (d. 1057), and since spelling was not regularized then, that doesn't make much sense.
[Plus, the real Macbeth's real Scottish name was Mac Bethad mac Findlaích (Modern Gaelic: MacBheatha mac Fhionnlaigh), so if Lyn wants to revert to the Scottish, why not do it? That's a fun question to ask him, LYMers.]
Anyhow, back to Lyn's senile dementia. So we've all seen that absolutely shockingly crazy press release.
But we haven't all seen the recent bananas briefings.
First off, looks as if Lyn's adopting Hitler's Triumph-of-the-Will approach to politics (of course, it worked faster for Hitler, who got into power at age 43, whereas at nearly 86 Lyn can't get arrested, as the saying goes. Or can he?).
So we have Triumph-of-the-Will (Hitler) plus The World as Will and Idea (Schopenhauer) meeting in the deranged briefing lead of May 16. I refer, of course, to the one titled "The U.S. Election is Idea- and Personality-Driven, Not Event-Driven."
This is basically the Great Man theory of history—and just guess who the Great Man is?
Anyhow, the briefing says:
"I'll tell you," LaRouche went on, "no event is going to shape the future right now. People are going to shape the future, not events. And one of the biggest factors in shaping the future is ourinfluence, my influence in particular. We are engaged in event-making developments—we are. Whereas the general view is event-driven. It doesn't function, because we are human beings.[Prove it.] Human beings make the future. And human beings who are not making the future are not very important people.[Lyn's final word on the "lower 99%." There's agape for you.]
"Important people are making the future. They are causing the events to occur. The events are not causing them to occur. And that's where the great stupidity enters. An event-driven, mistaken conception of history, when it's in reality people-driven, it's idea-driven history. People-driven history! Leadership-driven history!
"The same approach applies to the food issue. That's a personality-driven process, which in this case Helga is heading up."
Comments: That last line is a giveaway. We aren't talking about just any old personality, any old leader, any old idea, any old genius here—we're talking about Himself—oh, except for the food campaign. Herself gets a pat on the back from history for that one.
Generally, people who are making history, or making a living, or teaching others, or raising children, or helping others, or doing any one of a number of human things are too busy doing these things to think about how History will press them to her bosom. It's only the people sitting around the house all day long, and drinking all night, who have the time to obsess about Who They Are. And Who Their Wives Are. And How Everyone Else Isn't Very Important.
Take a look at Lyn in the most recent webcast, or on that stupid currency bill. He looks dreadful, no?
It's kind of a Picture of Dorian Gray phenomenon—except without the looking like a young Adonis part. But when it comes to the vileness of the soul showing in the frightening deterioration of the physiognomy, you might be forgiven for thinking that what was appearing in the latest webcast was the Picture of the Soul of Lyndon LaRouche....
More briefings, and crazier ones, to come. Interestingly, though, Tony Papert isn't writing them. Wonder where he's gotten to?

05-26-2008, 02:42 AM

eaglebeak

Carpet off the Hook? Farzad Darui ("Carpet") the 48-year-old Iranian emigre based in Falls Church, VA who became Jeff Steinberg and Paul Goldstein's go-to guy and main "intelligence source" when he was in his early 20s--somehow--and remained one of their closest "sources" all these years--paid a nice tidy sum every week by the LaRouche org--has just gotten a mistrial in his trial for boosting nearly half a million bucks from the Saudi-run Islamic Center in Washington, DC.
Hmmm. Just like LaRouche's (and Jeff's and Paul's) Boston mistrial of 1988 or so. Wonder what, if anything, "Carpet" had to do to get this one?
More info on "Carpet" is available on Laroucheplanet, including from the Dino de Paoli memo.
http://laroucheplanet.info/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=Main.HomePage&action=search&q=Carpet
Here are the links for the news on the current Farzad trial:
http://www.wtop.com/?nid=25&sid=1409936
http://washingtontimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080524/METRO/443567773/1004

05-26-2008, 07:31 PM

KosherSoze

A simple question... Can anyone LC/LYM lurkers here give me three or four examples of "event-making developments" (lovely turn of phrase) that Lyn and his people have been "making occur" (not such a lovely turn of phrase) over, say, the past year?
Perhaps with rough dates. And perhaps with some detail; that is, more specific, say, than "the food issue".
Extra points will be granted for independent news media verification - WPost, NYT, Matt Drudge, National Enquirer...
Just asking.

05-26-2008, 08:01 PM

howie

For what it is worth, revenire's sentence about my one post regarding Bevel:
<i>i love the bevel stuff, sort of reminds of of the murder of martin luther king and how he was accused of having sex with women… </i>
Which is a line that mostly just sort of identifies him as a a member in the early 1990s.
I note that someone who has been tweaking the wikipedia article on James Bevel left me a comment over this weekend to a suggestion I made that the line "Bevel ran on Larouche's ticket to get his ideas on education into the limelight" seems like a self-serving limelight (and snarky comments relating to what those "ideas" appear to be considering his molestation charges) -- and the wikipedia mention with Larouche has been altered, and expanded by a couple of sentences.
<i>James Bevel ran as the Republican candidate for Illinois' 7th Congressional District in 1984 in order to get his ideas on education into the limelight,[citation needed] and later ran as the vice presidential candidate in 1992 on Lyndon LaRouche's ticket while that perennial candidate was serving a prison sentence for tax fraud.[3] He engaged in LaRouche seminars on issues like "Is the Anti Defamation League the new KKK?".[4]</i>
The "Ideas on education" has been entirely moved to his congressional run -- which seems slightly disappointing only in as much as some explanation should be provided on what that run was about -- and Larouche's prison sentence has been added as context on when he was running with Larouche, and a mention of a seminar on how he was serving Larouche ala the seminar. Reasonable enough, I suppose.

05-27-2008, 03:35 AM

candor

LYMers and LYMettes: beware! The valedictorian of the LaRouche basement:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJKS17TNv5I&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toGr_dWK8Ow&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6z8KkOBv_5I&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NR4HxdQyLFI&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjztDHM3HWc&feature=related
This is your brain. This is your brain on LaRouche.

05-27-2008, 07:51 PM

boomer70

factnet support for any who haven't noticed the rather tiny appeal for factnet donations, please consider helping. (item is in the box just below the factnet logo)

05-27-2008, 08:41 PM

Detroiter

Thanks to you all for your serious attention to this matter of exposing LaRouche and getting important information out to any who are still involved in any way. Many of you write and express yourselves with amazing clarity and insight. I really appreciate having a bunch of gaps filled in and I hope that anyone still caught under LaRouche's spell will find some time to peruse and consider the body of work that is presented here.
My experience with the LC was from April 1979 to September 1981 in Detroit.
Tom S. and I bolted one evening in a fit of panic and paranoia after we put enough pieces together to determine that the money we were raising from farmers and ranchers was being siphoned off. It's a testament to our gullibility that it took soooooo long!!! As if the evidence hadn't been staring us in the face.
Dalto and a couple of his goons freaked out on us in the boiler room up on the sixth floor of the Book Building that evening just before we left. We'd been talking too much and acting noticeably different and I think the word was out that we were not happy with way things were going. We'd been genuinely excited about hooking up with people in the National Farmers Organization and American Agricultural Movement and had organized a series of meetings in Ohio, Wisconsin and Michigan that were getting larger and larger at the same time that Dalto's guys running the Parity Foundation, Dave T and Bob R, were undermining the whole concept and badmouthing the very people we were organizing as well as making the financial situation exceedingly difficult. We had to badger them to even get postage stamps.
It hit us like a ton of bricks that the Detroit operation was rogue (not yet realizing that the whole damn thing was) and we got particularly concerned when the Marion County, Ohio sheriff's guys had us face down with shotguns to our necks. The bums in Detroit had called in a stolen car, the one we took off in on our way to New York to notify LaRouche what we had recently discovered. It took a month to get out of jail and we wondered if New York and Detroit were collaborating on sending us to prison. My parents overheard Bobby G say some strange things on his phone calls from the county jail. He was the guy that New York sent to manage the situation.
Tom and I went around and around with the idea that LaRouche was being screened from reality by some bad faction in security and that when we did finally get to New York that we'd operate as a team to get the message to LaRouche in person. Well, they split us up immediately and they were busy putting Tom back together or so it seemed and I became the bad agent. Dalto was peddling the FBI line in Detroit and I can't recall what Jeff S came up with for the rest of the organization. They kept a real close eye on me for a few days and put me up at Rick M's apartment. They had a daily grilling session and I was increasingly annoyed at the tenor of the whole thing. They seemed to need to get me to say anything that would confirm their scenario. I read a memo from LaRouche about one of our members being exposed to a life-threatening situation. I think that was the gut punch that finally did it. The jail thing did get pretty hairy one night but we were in it together. I wish LaRouche had been in that cellblock with us because there's no hiding your real character or lack thereof in those situations.
It struck me as odd how afraid everyone in New York was and I noticed how many of them had nervous tics and strange behavour. The real eye-opener for me was when I walked to the national office and saw how freaked out Nancy S was when she saw me enter the little foyer. The only thing I heard her say behind the glass was "what is he doing here". They sent Allen S out to manage me. What a hoot that was!
My parents bought me a plane ticket home and I put my life back together by visiting some old friends and making amends. I hitchhiked down to Texas where my brother got me a job in a pizza joint and I met my wife in Galveston. We married in 1982 and have created satisfying lives and careers and have done alot of good for those around us.
I have some other things to say and a few insights but I'd like to leave it at this for now and remind any who are working for LaRouche that with a little bit of courage you can exit anytime you choose and thereby begin to regain your integrity. You'll be amazed at how understanding and forgiving people can be. One of the old guys I had gotten a loan from even lent me his truck for a few months after I stopped by his place to apologize. BTW - I still study conspiracy theory, as do many intelligent people, but after 27 years and scores of books I think the only conspiracy we need to really pay attention to is the conspiracy of ignorance. Adios amigos!

05-28-2008, 02:44 AM

poe Bevel

Quote:
Originally Posted by eaglebeak
->What I've gathered is that the LaRouche org line on the Rev Bev (former civil rights hero and also, weirdly enough, former LaRouche running mate James Bevel) and his conviction on charges of incest and child abuse against one of his daughters, is as follows:
The daughter is using faked "recovered memories" to attack her father.


Are they actually claiming that? Do you have sources? Have they said it in print anywhere? I don't believe everything that I read on this board, but if you are right, and they are still defending this man, that would destroy whatever respect I have left for them

05-28-2008, 03:41 AM

boomer70

Quote:
Originally Posted by poe
->Are they actually claiming that? Do you have sources? Have they said it in print anywhere? I don't believe everything that I read on this board, but if you are right, and they are still defending this man, that would destroy whatever respect I have left for them

Bevel, Mugabe, whoever, they're all golden souls and their deeds are not to be questioned by bronzers like us.

05-28-2008, 04:28 AM

eaglebeak

Worse Than That

Quote:
Originally Posted by poe
->Are they actually claiming that? Do you have sources? Have they said it in print anywhere? I don't believe everything that I read on this board, but if you are right, and they are still defending this man, that would destroy whatever respect I have left for them

I don't believe they're saying it in print anywhere. It was something I was told by a source who is still a member (sort of).
But, as was pointed out, they've done worse and defended worse. I mean, Michele Steinberg in print referred to Yasser Arafat as having attained the Sublime! Mugabe is another example. Hugo Chavez another, North Korea another, Ahmadinejad another.
Joseph Stalin, the German Army on the Eastern Front in WWII, terrorists, killers, and genocidalists as far as the eye can see--all those they've defended. In print.
And of course, in the Blame the Victim tradition that I mentioned in a previous post, there's also the Exonerate the Culpable--which is why Lyn insists to this day that the British, the Americans, the Harrimans, the Bushes--everyone put Adolf Hitler into power except the German voters.
But LaRouche's official position on Bevel, as far as I know, is silence. You won't catch Lyn defending Bevel--because Bevel is prison-bound, and if there's one thing Lyn's terrified of (and there is), it's prison and The Authorities.

05-28-2008, 02:08 PM

poe

Quote:
Originally Posted by eaglebeak
->->I don't believe they're saying it in print anywhere. It was something I was told by a source who is still a member (sort of).
But, as was pointed out, they've done worse and defended worse. I mean, Michele Steinberg in print referred to Yasser Arafat as having attained the Sublime! Mugabe is another example. Hugo Chavez another, North Korea another, Ahmadinejad another.
Joseph Stalin, the German Army on the Eastern Front in WWII, terrorists, killers, and genocidalists as far as the eye can see--all those they've defended. In print.
And of course, in the Blame the Victim tradition that I mentioned in a previous post, there's also the Exonerate the Culpable--which is why Lyn insists to this day that the British, the Americans, the Harrimans, the Bushes--everyone put Adolf Hitler into power except the German voters.
But LaRouche's official position on Bevel, as far as I know, is silence. You won't catch Lyn defending Bevel--because Bevel is prison-bound, and if there's one thing Lyn's terrified of (and there is), it's prison and The Authorities.


I certainly haven't read everything that they've put out in recent years, but I have never seen them say anything good about Hugo Chavez or North Korea. I thought they condemned Chavez as a Synarchist, or something like that. I wish they were pro-Chavez. He is standing up to the US. That's a good thing. For you to compare support of Arafat with defending a man who molests his own daughter and calls it religous training is insane. Most of the world supported Arafat. If it wasn't for the US veto power at the UN Security Council, he would have been the President of an independant Palestinian State. For me to believe that they are still defending Bevel I would need a lot more than just your word. I'm not saying it's not true. It might be. But I would have to see proof. Or at least hear it from somebody who knows the difference between an anti-Imperialist and a child-molestor.

05-28-2008, 02:47 PM

xlcr4life

5 Attachment(s)

Quote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjztDHM3HWc&feature=related->This is your brain. This is your brain on LaRouche.

The show "In Living color" was a great TV show and was one of my favorites after I left the LC. Big difference is that the Wayan brothers got paid to act dopey where LYM and LYMettes do it for just about nothing.
Compare those videos to these:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69Sbvu-7QMo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_znyq6EVNDk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXXaloNqfiI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RfOIzNLMOY
A recent email from a reader here remined me of one of the best videos for people to watch about cults.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnNSe5XYp6E
I would suggest that Steve Komm and his wife along with Matt Guice and his wife watch this one, but they are too busy at card table shrines and dreaming of being showered with LaroucheBucks for their 30 to 40 years of faithfull service.
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

05-28-2008, 03:10 PM

KosherSoze

Quote:
Originally Posted by poe
->For you to compare support of Arafat with defending a man who molests his own daughter and calls it religous training is insane. Most of the world supported Arafat. If it wasn't for the US veto power at the UN Security Council, he would have been the President of an independant Palestinian State. For me to believe that they are still defending Bevel I would need a lot more than just your word. I'm not saying it's not true. It might be. But I would have to see proof. Or at least hear it from somebody who knows the difference between an anti-Imperialist and a child-molestor.


I don't think anyone was comparing Arafat to Bevel. The issue is what type of organisation elevates people like Arafat (or anyone - even cuddly ol' Obama) to 'the sublime', and what the political implications are of that.
Obviously this isn't a problem solely confined to LaRouche - the CPs did it with Stalin; Kim Il Sung (and Jong Il) have their own cults of personaility (attended to from time to time by minnows like Jack Barnes of the SWP); the Healyites and David North tailed after every Arabist despot known to mankind. But it's putrid politics.
It has nothing whatsoever to do with anti-imperialism (and always use that term with great care - loyalty to so-called anti-imperialism has its own profoundly backward uses - ask any Vietnamese or Iranian Trotskysists), and everything to do with abandoning working people and crawling to those in power for a few wretched crumbs. And as I say, LaRouche is hardly the only practitioner of such foulness, but he has tended to make it his modus operandi over the years - or at least would if he could manage to get his foot in the door. And that is what his organisation has become, an introduction agency for the unloveable, with only one regular client on the books.

05-28-2008, 04:52 PM

eaglebeak

Clash of the Titans

Quote:
Originally Posted by poe
I certainly haven't read everything that they've put out in recent years, but I have never seen them say anything good about Hugo Chavez or North Korea. I thought they condemned Chavez as a Synarchist, or something like that. I wish they were pro-Chavez. He is standing up to the US. That's a good thing. For you to compare support of Arafat with defending a man who molests his own daughter and calls it religous training is insane. Most of the world supported Arafat. If it wasn't for the US veto power at the UN Security Council, he would have been the President of an independant Palestinian State. For me to believe that they are still defending Bevel I would need a lot more than just your word. I'm not saying it's not true. It might be. But I would have to see proof. Or at least hear it from somebody who knows the difference between an anti-Imperialist and a child-molestor.

A couple of things.
1. They have certainly said good things about Chavez and about North Korea, going some years back, although not uniformly and not consistently (too much to expect).
I see no reason to get into an extended wrangle over Chavez (although it's obvious from my previous post what I think of him).
2. On to Arafat--rather than our discussing here whether he was a terrorist or a humanist hero, let's agree to disagree on this one too. I obviously consider him, and Chavez, to be Bad with a capital "B," and you obviously don't.
However--do we agree on LaRouche? If so, we have plenty to talk about. But maybe we don't....
3. On Bevel--the idea that comparing Arafat to Bevel (which wasn't what I did, but let's assume I did) is somehow comparing an "anti-imperialist" to a "mere" child molester suggests to me that you don't know much about Bevel.
He was, in fact, a hero of the civil rights movement, a key aide and adviser to Martin Luther King, and all the rest. The tragedy here is that he was also a molester and abuser of his own children.
To dismiss him as being on a lower ontological rung than Arafat is, in my view, wrong.
What I was saying above, and say again now, is that when it comes to championing people of questionable moral compass, the LaRouche organization has backed people and ideas worse than Bevel on a regular basis.
So it's no surprise that they might come up with an alibi for him.
Meanwhile, however, since I indicated what my source was, there's no published location for you to refer to, and therefore, as you so courteously put it, you won't accept my word because you have concluded I can't tell the difference between an anti-imperialist and a child molester.
That's okay. I just added my take in response to someone's question about the org vis-a-vis Bevel, and if you don't want my two cents, no problem.
There's no gun to your head (as there might be, say, in some "anti-imperialist" settings).

05-28-2008, 05:54 PM

scrimscraw

Dept. of Dirty Tricks I was at a bookstore yesterday, leafing through a scholarly book published by a university press about the evolution of the GOP and its "Southern Strategy" and came upon a datapoint that I'd either forgotten or never known. It was apparently EIR/NS "reporters" who first floated the rumor that Prez candidate Michael Dukakis had been treated for depression. This was welcomed by GOP operatives (Lee Attwater?), who encouraged the mainstream press to look into it, and a big Dukakis-undercutting controversy was manufactured out of whole cloth.
Just a small confirmation of XLcr's past mentions of the LC being useful to the right while pretending to be Democrats. Not too dissimilar to the present LC attacks on Obama and Gore, while McCain largely gets a free ride. (And apropos the comments immediately before this, my point here is not one of choosing up sides, but of the phenomenon of disinfo and dirty tricks deployed against one's own (purported) side.)

05-28-2008, 07:45 PM

boomer70

Quote:
Originally Posted by poe
I certainly haven't read everything that they've put out in recent years, but I have never seen them say anything good about Hugo Chavez or North Korea. I thought they condemned Chavez as a Synarchist, or something like that. I wish they were pro-Chavez. He is standing up to the US. That's a good thing. For you to compare support of Arafat with defending a man who molests his own daughter and calls it religous training is insane. Most of the world supported Arafat. If it wasn't for the US veto power at the UN Security Council, he would have been the President of an independant Palestinian State. For me to believe that they are still defending Bevel I would need a lot more than just your word. I'm not saying it's not true. It might be. But I would have to see proof. Or at least hear it from somebody who knows the difference between an anti-Imperialist and a child-molestor.

amen on all but your harshness towards Eaglebreak; we've had enough of that in the LC.

05-28-2008, 07:58 PM

boomer70

Quote:
Originally Posted by scrimscraw
Just a small confirmation of XLcr's past mentions of the LC being useful to the right while pretending to be Democrats. Not too dissimilar to the present LC attacks on Obama and Gore, while McCain largely gets a free ride. (And apropos the comments immediately before this, my point here is not one of choosing up sides, but of the phenomenon of disinfo and dirty tricks deployed against one's own (purported) side.)

Forgotten where, but I read a piece lately by the Hube in which he snuffles about McCain being in the industrial-scientific tradition of the U.S. military. Who wants to bet that if Obama gets the nomination, Himself will favor McCain?

05-28-2008, 08:05 PM

xlcr4life

5 Attachment(s)

Quote:
Originally Posted by scrimscraw
I was at a bookstore yesterday, leafing through a scholarly book published by a university press about the evolution of the GOP and its "Southern Strategy" and came upon a datapoint that I'd either forgotten or never known. It was apparently EIR/NS "reporters" who first floated the rumor that Prez candidate Michael Dukakis had been treated for depression. This was welcomed by GOP operatives (Lee Attwater?), who encouraged the mainstream press to look into it, and a big Dukakis-undercutting controversy was manufactured out of whole cloth.
Just a small confirmation of XLcr's past mentions of the LC being useful to the right while pretending to be Democrats. Not too dissimilar to the present LC attacks on Obama and Gore, while McCain largely gets a free ride. (And apropos the comments immediately before this, my point here is not one of choosing up sides, but of the phenomenon of disinfo and dirty tricks deployed against one's own (purported) side.)

This was a BIG operation. We had people in Atlanta who slid leafletts about this under the doors of every room at the hotels where delagates and reporters stayed.
King mentions this in his book. Just ad dit to one of many disinformation schemes. This happens when you have gullible reporters whoa re too lazy to do their own research , are ignorant of the cult and want to believe the disinformation.
http://lyndonlarouchewatch.org/fascism15.htm
This is from the King Book.
Chapter Fifteen
LaRouche and the Reagan Revolution
During his eight years of presidential press conferences, Ronald Reagan often took questions from Executive Intelligence Review correspondents. On August 3, 1988, the question and answer created a furor. EIR's Nick Benton asked the President if he thought Michael Dukakis should make his medical records public. Benton was alluding to rumors spread by his own NCLC colleagues that the Democratic presidential nominee had sought psychiatric help for depression in the late 1970s. Reagan, grinning, answered: "Look, I'm not going to pick on an invalid." The remark elicited groans of dismay from the assembled reporters, and Reagan half apologized several hours later. Yet the President had managed to transform an unsubstantiated smear into a major international news story. The New York Times's Anthony Lewis wrote that "anyone who thinks that crack was accidental must believe in the Tooth Fairy." Senator Daniel P. Moynihan used even blunter language, charging that the "Big Lie" of Lyndon LaRouche had "reached the Oval Office."
The LaRouchians had started their Dukakis rumors at the convention, with leaflets that asked, "Is Dukakis the new Senator Eagleton?" Afterwards they called daily newspapers around the country, telling each that its competitors were already hot on the story. Fearful of being scooped, editors and reporters reacted predictably. Dukakis headquarters received a barrage of inquiries. Although campaign spokesmen denied everything and the LaRouchians offered no solid evidence, the rumors became newsworthy simply as rumors. The weekend before Reagan's "invalid" quip, several important news outlets had already reported the story. The Reverend Moon's Washington Times gave it front-page coverage with the sly headline: "Dukakis Psychiatric Rumor Denied." On August 3, a Wall Street Journal editorial noted "rumors about [Dukakis's] depression," which supposedly highlighted "how little the American people know about this man."
Dukakis called a press conference to deny the rumor, and within a few days it was overshadowed by the story of Dan Quayle and the National Guard. Syndicated columnists Rowland Evans and Robert Novak noted that the caper apparently had backfired by linking Bush to LaRouche more than Dukakis to the psychiatrist's couch. They charged that, weeks before the story broke into print, the "political apparatus of Bush campaign manager Lee Atwater was investigating the details and trying to spread the findings without leaving any vice-presidential fingerprints." The column suggested that Atwater's lieutenants had "asked outside GOP operatives" to do the dirty work.
There was a potential bombshell here, but most of the media showed the usual reluctance to cover anything relating to LaRouche. This emboldened his followers to escalate their smear campaign with a sixteen-page pamphlet on Dukakis's alleged mental problems, partiality for the "drug-sex counterculture," and support for "privileges for homosexuals." The initial press run was 100,000 copies, available for fifty cents each in bulk orders of 100 or more.
The press treated the original smear as an isolated incident, but the LaRouche organization had conducted scores of dirty-tricks operations against the Democrats (and occasionally against moderate Republicans on behalf of the Reaganites) over the previous twelve years. Almost totally ignored by the press except in the earliest and least harmful stage, this campaign is probably the largest and certainly the longest-running operation of its type in American electoral history.
The cult has a way of doing things and when you know the history, the rest is easy.
Detroiter mentioned how we were calling up the Farm orgs and speaking in their meetings. The cult is doing the same thing again but this time trying to use the hook about the British choking the world food supply by forcing bio fuels in a New Dark Ages plot. Besides the lunacy of all of this I wonder if the LYM and LYMettes have figured out that current farmers love the high prices ?
Detroiter, you mentioned driving to NYC . There was another story like this at the same time. A woman named Jennie R drove a Chevy from Detroit non stop to the NYC 304 W 58 th street office and abandoned the car, ran up stairs and dropped off the keys at the front desk. I do not know if she was by herself or with you or someone else. She left the LC and lives happily ever after
Here are some pix from our Detroit Conference a reader sent in , along with some NYC 1979 News Years pix.
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

05-28-2008, 08:20 PM

earnest_one

Business Interests Scrimscraw wrote:
"Just a small confirmation of XLcr's past mentions of the LC being useful to the right while pretending to be Democrats."
"Useful" is a bit of understatement and, perhaps, hides the strong business relationships that LAR maintained with various hard-right elements within our government.
According Michael Hudson (who speaks and writes quite openly about these matters), the US government was one of LAR's best paying customers and the jobs often involved "performing dirty tricks" on Dems and Progressives.
LAR: Paid agent of US Intelligence Services. But more: someone who worked for the neocons.
Or, put another way: LAR is/was a White Trash Monkey, swinging from every tree branch that paid him money to promulgate virtually any public position and perform virtually any covert dirty trick, even when the targets were "good" people, good Americans.
According to Hudson (and this is well documented by many others) LAR's true interest was the money, not the ideological stance, per se.

05-28-2008, 08:28 PM

eaglebeak

Oh, Well

Quote:
Originally Posted by boomer70
amen on all but your harshness towards Eaglebreak; we've had enough of that in the LC.

Ah me. Thank you, boomer70, for your defense of me if not of my post--and I'm sure poe was just ****ed off at what I said, not really at me.
I don't mind this, having spent more than 30 years in the org and having disagreed most of the time with a lot of the politics--not to mention all of Lyn's insanities--but still being extremely fond of many of the people, and still respecting their dedication to trying to help the human race, even as I thought--increasingly--that their choice of vehicles was a real problem.
So to boomer70, thanks, even though you don't agree with me, and to poe, no hard feelings, since I imagine we agree on some if not all of the important things...
Otherwise: I strongly recommend that everyone give $$ to FactNet, to keep this board open. It really is a very valuable place.
I do think it's possible that Lyn will wind up McCain, hilarious as that may seem (remember his rantings and ravings about McCain and Lieberman and the Manchurian candidate vs. Bush, or some such, in the wake of 9/11?).
Lyn has turned on a dime many, many times before. Remember his sudden switch from excoriating Bill Clinton as "Southern fried fascism" to supporting him fanatically? Happens all the time.

05-29-2008, 03:54 AM

eaglebeak

Ken Kronberg's Understanding of Drama On a completely different subject.
Many regular FactNet readers will remember posts I've put up before quoting briefings and memos in which Lyn raved about how the East Coast drama work "made him sick," etc.--referring specifically to Shakespeare work Ken Kronberg and two others were doing with the LYM in Baltimore, which Lyn cancelled after Tony Papert intervened to stop it--this despite the fact that Tony had never seen it, and Lyn had never seen it.
I was discussing this with Molly recently, and she gave me an interesting list which I post here with (almost) no further comment--a list of the plays Ken Kronberg was involved in acting in or directing over his lifetime.
Please note that this is a list Molly and Ken compiled together at some point, probably in reaction to some moronic slur of Lyn's. I don't know if it includes Ken's last work with the Baltimore LYM.
College
Directed Noye's Fludde
Directed Aria da Capo (Edna St. Vincent Millay)
Directed fully staged reading of Women of Trachis (Sophocles, trans. Ezra Pound)
Acted in Many Loves (William Carlos Williams)
In ICLC
1. Shakespeare
Extra in Hamlet (3 full-length performances two cities)
Directed Macbeth (10 full-length performances, seven cities)
Directed Love's Labors Lost (never performed)
Directed staged reading The Tempest (never performed)
Directed scene from Twelfth Night (adults)
Directed scenes from Act II Midsummer Night's Dream (teenagers)
Directed scenes from Act V Midsummer Night's Dream (adults)
Consulted, scenes from Act V Midsummer Night's Dream (Adults)
Directed Acts I–III Two Gentlemen of Verona (teenagers, never performed)
Directed Act IV from Merchant of Venice (teenagers)
Act V Merchant of Venice (adults)
Directed scene from Measure for Measure (adults)
Seminar reading aloud The Taming of the Shrew (teenagers)
Directed scenes, Acts 1–IV Julius Caesar (adults under title Vox Populi)
Led teen trips to Two Gentlemen of Verona and The Tempest
2. Marlowe
Acted in The Jew of Malta (two performances)
Extra in Tamburlaine (one performance)
3. Schiller
Directed The Parasite (three full performances, two cities, adults)
Directed scene from Mary Stuart (adults)
Directed scenes from Don Carlos (adults)
Dramatic reading prologue Maid of Orleans
Seminar reading aloud William Tell (teenagers)
4. Cervantes Interludes
Acted in The Divorce Court
Directed The Cave of Salamanca (adults)
Consulted on The Pageant of Marvels (two different productions, teens)
5. Children's performances
Directed The Odyssey (two different productions, full performances)
Adapted and directed The Magic Flute (full performance; music director Alan Ogden)
Adapted children's plays on Columbus (by Rod Huth), Abe Lincoln, William Tell
Wherever it says "never peformed," odds are good it was cancelled as a result of some LaRouche dictum.
My one additional comment: Ken Kronberg was no dilettante, and no poseur--unlike that ultimate intellectual fraud, LaRouche.

05-29-2008, 01:49 PM

KosherSoze

Quote:
Originally Posted by eaglebeak
Lyn has turned on a dime many, many times before. Remember his sudden switch from excoriating Bill Clinton as "Southern fried fascism" to supporting him fanatically? Happens all the time.

I'd always assumed that was just LaRouche bottom-feeding - 'Who's out of favour now? Let's be their only friend and see if we can lever some advantage off their standing (however diminished)' - Gerald Ford, Marcos, Billy Boy and now Hillary.
I'm waiting to see them come to Cheney's defense. Now what would that take?

05-29-2008, 06:01 PM

scrimscraw

Eternally correct Those looking for a good chuckle might want to check out an early written piece by LHL just posted at LaRouchePlanet. http://laroucheplanet.info/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=Library.EconomicsAndPolitics1
It's a short paper called "Economics and Politics" that was published in the SWP Discussion Bulletin, Vol. 25, no. 9, (August?) 1965, while Lyn was still trying to get recognized for the genius he was within the Socialist Workers Party. The paper is dated July 27, 1965, and is notable for two interesting passages. The first, starts off the paper on page 1 and is Lyn's triumphal claims to accurate forecasting, even then. Except, no Reimann, Kepler, or Triple Curves in sight. Just the dogmatic assertion that "the active practice of Marxist science is the only means for comprehending the current reality"! So, take that!

Quote:
The political positions represented in the draft resolution, The Coming American Socialist Revolution, are the present stage of development of a political line first introduced by L. Marcus to leading SWP bodies in 1957-58. The starting point of that line was and remains that the 1975-58 recession represented a turning-point in post-war imperialist development, portending a probable general crisis for the middle or late 'sixties. In applying this economic analysis to social and political questions Marcus has followed the line of method represented by comrade Trotsky in several places, as in "The Curve of Capitalist Development" (FI, May, 1941).
Now -- in the middle 'sixties! -- with the beginning of a new U.S. recession evident in March, 1965, with the imperialist financial organs filled with the issue of an impending general crisis, the Marcus economic analysis has been fully confirmed by ensuing events. The Marcus positions on social and political perspectives have been confirmed in much the same way, virtually to the same extent.
What is actually proven is the effectiveness of Marxism as a science, Marxist method. Again, history has demonstrated that the active practice of Marxist science is the only means for comprehending the current reality, the exclusive basis for revolutionary political programs and activities.

The second choice passage is on the paper's 4th and final page. Here, Lyn captures how SWP youths (the yutes of his pre-LC days) were being "systematically corrupted." And how was that? "Because of their misplaced faith in titular leaders, because of their petit-bourgeois tendency for sycophancy toward titular leaders, they are easily persuaded -- on grounds of "organizational loyalty" -- to commit unprincipled acts."

Quote:
...However, neither they nor any other promising youth will develop as effective Marxists unless their road to leading positions in our party is that prescribed by Trotsky: the first step to leadership is not the number of Militants sold (any police agent can meet that standard better than most revolutionaries), but an internal revolution.
The development of these youth in this way would amount to an 180-degree turn in party practices. Under present arrangements many of these talented youth are being systematically corrupted; in a few instances I can virtually graph the progress of their moral, political decay. Because of their misplaced faith in titular leaders, because of their petit-bourgeois tendency for sycophancy toward titular leaders, they are easily persuaded -- on grounds of "organizational loyalty" -- to commit unprincipled acts. As being becomes consciousness, their accumulated complicity in the political and organizational crimes of the leadership becomes their own complete moral degradation.

Hmm?, as Lyn says.

05-30-2008, 12:10 AM

KosherSoze

Quote:
Originally Posted by scrimscraw

Those looking for a good chuckle might want to check out an early written piece by LHL just posted at LaRouchePlanet http://laroucheplanet.info/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=Library.EconomicsAndPolitics1.
It's a short paper called "Economics and Politics" that was published in the SWP Discussion Bulletin, Vol. 25, no. 9, (August?) 1965, while Lyn was still trying to get recognized for the genius he was within the Socialist Workers Party.

The document itself is fascinating on a whole host of levels.
1. If one didn't know otherwise - ie. if one took the claims of the document at face value (as LaRouche generally expects his claims to be taken), one would have to assume that Marcus was an acknowledged leader or intellectual figure within the SWP in the 1950s and 1960s, as he claims the SWP's draft resolution is based on a political line that he himself first introduced to the party in the 1950s. Yet LaRouche/Marcus has never been identified in SWP documents as being a significant figure at that time - we know of Jim Cannon, Farrell Dobbs, Tom Kerry, Joe Hansen, and later Jack Barnes, but no Lyn Marcus. To my knowledge he doesn't even pop up in the COINTELPRO documents (the FBI operations against the SWP from '60 to '76). Whatever his claims are, there's not one scrap of external evidence to support them.
Look at the names of journal contributors here. Marcus comes in twice.
http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/newspape/isr/index.htm
2. Marcus = Marxist. He says: "What is actually proven is the effectiveness of Marxism as a science, Marxist method". What he means (and we know this from the previous paragraph) is that "Marcusism" as a science, "Marcusist" method has been actually proven. After all, he's the one proved right here, he's telling them. They call themselves Marxists, but he's the one who developed the political line that has been "fully confirmed by ensuing events" and which (even if they didn't yet know it), led to the draft resolution they had before them.
3. His over-the-top and absolutist attack on the Political Committee is interesting. From what little I know of the man I'd say that was just his bombastic side coming out. But from what I know of the SWP at the time, I'd say it was also likely that he thought he was being helpful in a faction fight for someone else, against the Dobbs-Kerry-Barnes clique, and ended up shooting his mouth off. SWP factionalists were certainly capable of such language, but generally not in print. He was out of his depth here. Given that this was a period when the new generation of party leadership was being groomed, he was no doubt wondering why Farrell hadn't tapped him on the shoulder for greater things.
The rest of the stuff is batsh*t crazy, and possibly the longest whiny excuse not to go on paper sales in the history of Trotskyism. The self-aggrandizing third-person references would have set off alarms all over the place. Even then the signs of intellectual fraudulence were blatantly obvious - even in the strange pond of US Toytown Trotskyism, which was cultivating such charmers as Jim Robertson, Tim Wohlforth and Freddy Mazelis at the same time.
And yet he went on to build a movement of some size. How batsh*t is that?

05-31-2008, 07:23 AM

scrimscraw

Hide your brain to avoid unwanted washing! Another recent posting at LaRouchePlanet.com worth checking out: an article from New Solidarity in August 1973 introducing the brainwashing theme into the LC universe: East Germans Brainwash American to Spy on ICLC. http://laroucheplanet.info/pmwikipmwiki.php?n=Library.EastGermansBrainwashAmericanToSpyOnICLC This was just a warm-up to the Chris White fiasco.

06-01-2008, 06:36 PM

KosherSoze He don't get no respect Check out the final line:
http://www.theonion.com/content/news/obama_clinton_mccain_join_forces

06-03-2008, 07:53 AM

scrimscraw

Counting Chickens before Hatched Here's the latest wisdom from the Resident Genius:

Quote:
WE HAVE WON
June 2, 2008 (LPAC)--Speaking to his staff on Monday, June 2, on the eve of the final two Presidential primaries, former Democratic Presidential candidate Lyndon LaRouche said:
"Hillary and Bill have won. She, and we, fought them to a standstill. The enemy has come up with a dead end.
"Hillary is going to hold her position. Nothing is settled. She's going to the Convention and going beyond the Convention. Obama will drop out.
"She's got the greatest number of votes in any pre-Presidential primaries in history. She has won and we have won because it was played properly.
"Obama is not going to be the next President of the United States. All the people who thought differently are proven to be idiots. It's a standoff.
"They have a very weak tool: Obama, who has no strength; who is not intended to take that kind of pressure.
"We have had a really big victory. If people knew what we had accomplished in this recent period, they would be so ecstatic, they'd be dancing on the walls.''

But.....what about Bloomberg? I thought he was going to be the victor? Or was that another of those true predictions that have been swept under the rug?

06-03-2008, 05:00 PM

borisbad

Wonder what he'll say if Obama chooses Hillary for his running mate?

06-03-2008, 05:37 PM

KosherSoze

Quote:
Originally Posted by borisbad
Wonder what he'll say if Obama chooses Hillary for his running mate?

Probably that it was his idea all along.

06-03-2008, 09:07 PM

boomer70

Hube hates popular movements. His vision of the world is one in which it is only the eminences grises who control things. The idea of a people united around anything scares him to death, unless of course he's the boss. How different from leaders like Fidel Castro, whose lives are about not just bringing out the best in others, but taking delight in the suprises and challenges which a people on the move will always create.

06-04-2008, 12:08 AM

candor

Of course, LaRouche has gotten the greatest number of votes in any post-Presidential primaries in history.
I am so looking forward to the Obama presidency - after eight years of the vicious mendacity otherwise best represented by Hillarity - and the much addled Hermyle Hube.
GOBAMA! :D

06-04-2008, 04:29 AM

eaglebeak

Imago Lyndy TO: ALL POINTS BY: WILLIAM F. WERTZ/SSU
Morning Briefing
Wednesday, May 14, 2008
LYN: THE GREATEST THING IS
TO CREATE GENIUS IN ONE'S OWN IMAGE
The meeting last night between Lyn and the LYM and the NEC was taped. The tape will be posted and a transcript will be made on Wednesday. What follows is a summary report on the meeting pending the availability of the transcript.
Lyn emphasized the changes he has initiated in order to create the conditions under which the generation of young people ages 24-35 can begin to take on responsibility for the organization as a whole. In principle, he said, he no longer will he (sic) accept briefings from Boomers on what the youth are doing. The "cattle car" way in which young people are moved around has been degrading and destructive, and will end. [Fiddlesticks. The "cattle car" approach is as old as the organization, was implemented with a vengeance in the '70s, destroyed countless marriages, burned out countless organizers, and was entirely sanctioned by Lyn. To blame the Boomers for doing this to the youth can mean only one thing: Watch out, Barbara Boyd!] Changes are being initiated which are an augury of what is to come.
The problem is that the Boomers don't believe in the future. This is reflected in briefing slugs. The tendency is to produce garbage as slugs, to interpret an event kinetically, not dynamically. Both in the written briefing as well as (sic) in verbal intelligence briefings to Lyn, what is presented is not intelligence which is future oriented, but rather a collection of factoids, like dry turds. People insist that Lyn must hear their facts. The end result is that Lyn is bored to death. [In short: Don't tax the old man's attention span.]
What we are doing is future oriented. Do you want to relive the past? The past is sending us to hell. The important thing is not the past, but the future. We should take all this garbage, all the factoids, and not publish them. [Not-publishing—what Lyn does best.]
When Lyn came out of prison, there was initially optimism [nonsense; there was horror], but by 1996 the organization was dead.[Ah, the Man with the Magic Touch.] In 1996, Lyn gave a campaign event presenting his pedagogy of the triple cure, and the audience consisted of corpses.[Happens all the time.] Everybody had died.[Right there in the middle of the speech.] Here he was, presenting the most important forecast [it wasn't a forecast. It was a drawing] in 10 years by anyone, about how the system was coming down and what to do about it, and the organization was brain-dead. Why? Because people said Lyn was wrong, that there was money still around, that there was no depression.[No they didn't. Maybe they should've, but they didn't.]
In 2000, Lyn said that Leesburg would be hit by a real estate panic when they stopped pumping money into the system. People denied it would happen. Morality had collapsed. People still acted habitually. They did something day to day, but had no sense of the future.
And contrary to the Boomers, everything Lyn has forecast has happened! [Let's see—depression, hyperinflation, World War III, Giuliani, Bloomberg….]
What is important for us is what we have done. Lyn's fight to ensure the deployment of the LYM at the 2004 convention in Boston changed the course of history. [Another "fight" Lyn never fought. This is the one where he blames Nancy Spannaus for trying to sabotage his stupid campaign. Never happened. Maybe it should've, but it didn't.] As a result of that deployment, Lyn was called upon to back up the John Kerry campaign. [James Carville, Hillary Clinton, and Bill Clinton called upon him. Don't believe me? Just ask Debbie Freeman.] That changed history, even though Kerry lost because he flinched. [No wonder, with LaRouche backing him up.]
On Nov. 11, 2004, we launched a defense of Social Security. There would have been no chance for anybody in the U.S. if we had not done that. We have made it this far, due to future-oriented actions based on a dynamic study of the process underway. [Clear?]
Right now we are sitting on two events. All kinds of things can happen. Normally one would say that Hillary Clinton will have a landslide victory in West Virginia, but the enemy knows the effect that would have. So, one can't preclude some action to prevent it.
Tomorrow there will be a meeting of Hillary Clinton's finance committee, which may attempt to shut down her campaign. [I see Nostradamus is at it again.]
There are two British fascists, Felix Rohatyn and George Soros. Both are London assets. Soros is the main force behind Howard Scream. If they control the Democratic Party, the Party will become fascist.
Our job is to shape the future. To do that we have to (sic), to reorganize this organization. The Boomers have lost the ability to think about the future. There are always exceptions, but the organization was dying morally. You have to have a clear vision of the future and intervene to cause the future. Except for the exceptional people, only the 18-35 year-old generation, as a mass, is capable of producing the number of people who will fight the war.
The generation of Boomers broke down with only a few exceptions who are still capable of fighting. If you can't think of creating a future, you can't think about what to do in the present.
The key changes Lyn has put into effect are that there shall be no more "cookie cutters" [block that metaphor] waiting for orders from Boomers. He won't tolerate that. He does not want to be briefed by Boomers on the youth movement; he has been lied to too often. [That's for sure. How many people do you know who have told Lyn the truth?] People don't necessarily intend to lie, but matters of importance have been omitted too often. [I'm telling you, Barbara—watch out.]
Lyn emphasized that what has changed the organization for the good is the combination of the choral work and the science work. This combination is not elective; it is indispensable. If you don't take this course, you flunk Humanity. The function of science is to shape the future. How was history shaped? By getting away from empiricism. To become people who will shape the future, you have to understand the {principles} which will shape the future. The history of science is the way to shape the future. If you don't understand this process, you don't understand how to shape the future. What shapes the future is the discovery of higher principles to change human behavior. The future is a process. If you are not going upward, you are just producing more rubbish. Never repeat. "Mommy, come see what I just did!" Think like a scientist to shape the future. Apply that to our political work. Understand what it is to be human. It is better to be human than a Boomer.
Lyn said he doesn't want to know who hit whom, that the baby made dodo (sic) in the potty.
We are in danger of losing civilization. We are on the verge of a Dark Age. And the decision will be made in the U.S.
The Clinton's (sic) are human. They have made mistakes, but they are human, most of the rest were not. They have a quality of humanity. Everything else is artificial.
[What IS he talking about?]
Suppose the PPP crowd grabs the Democratic Party. Every good Democrat will become a Republican. No one in his right mind will play with PPP people—fascists like Rohatyn and Soros. If they took over the Democratic Party, then people in their right mind would destroy such a Democratic Party, just as they would destroy the Nazi Party. Under those conditions, McCain would be told to do as he is told. Patriotic forces in the U.S. would act to control him, to put diapers on him. To save the nation they would mobilize to destroy the Democratic Party under the control of the PPPs (sic). We must shape the future. This is no time for business as usual. [Note Lyn positioning himself to support the Republican ticket. What was that business about Molly Kronberg's Republican treachery again?]
Lyn concluded by emphasizing that we are changing the entire organization. We are integrating the youth organization. The 24-35 year-olds are doing the work. There are two nerve centers: First, there is the Basement, which is the science driver; and secondly, there is the LYM editorial and operational center. These are one and the same thing. This youth operation is now coordinating the field organization here and abroad, especially in South America. We now have an active process through the hemisphere. The activity center, the project center, is in Purcellville. We will have something, Washington, D.C. as an extension of that. This is the center of the organization, the baseline of activity. It will have increasing autonomy based on the principle of decentralized centralization….

Comments:
1. First, fabulous headline. "Creating Genius in One's Own Image," eh? It's just a flat fact—Lyn thinks he's God, only more so. And he's never gotten over blowing his Sanfort-Binet test in kindergarten, either.
2. Note that Lyn is trashing even his favorite Boomers, the ones who used to direct the youth (That would be Barbara, and Bruce, and maybe even Jeff and Michele.)
3. Note that there's Youth Basement, and Youth Editorial, and Youth Operations, and Youth Washington—and Lyn's not listening to Boomer intelligence any more, so what WILL the Boomers do? And does anybody care?
4. When Lyn came out of prison in January 1994, he promptly began attacking everyone in sight—with special venom aimed at PMR and WorldComp. The NEC began dropping out in droves. Demoralization was rampant. It was just so ghastly to have him back. And that leads me to…
5. The famous 1996 campaign speech where the audience was a bunch of Labor Committee corpses. What makes this especially hilarious is that it was taped to form the core of a LaRouche Presidential campaign TV half-hour broadcast (you know, the ones that cost hundreds of thousands of dollars and made no difference whatsoever). ANYhow, in order to fill up the hotel room or hall or whatever, all the Labor Committee members who were working in Leesburg were forced to drive to Alexandria in the evening after working a full day, and sit in the hotel listening to Lyn drone on. The Labor Committee members were all exhausted; many fell asleep. It was all captured on tape—and it WAS a TV half-hour ad broadcast nationally at great cost—and it was hilarious, and Lyn was furious.
6. Lyn prepares his troops to attack the Democratic Party as fascist, and to back McCain. The ironies are endless.

06-04-2008, 07:10 AM

boomer70

What a riot! The Hube and McBrainfarts. See http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/06/03/9396/ for an hilarious account of McBrainfart's senile snufflings on presidential powers. But he'll never match our Hube's antics.

06-04-2008, 07:35 AM

scrimscraw

Bloomberg MIA? McCain next best bet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eaglebeak
6. Lyn prepares his troops to attack the Democratic Party as fascist, and to back McCain. The ironies are endless.

Hey, there could be an upside to this: Yute choirs singing at McCain rallys instead of Demo rallys. If, as seems obvious, whoever Lyn "supports" is actually the recipient of LC undercutting, then I'm rooting for LHL flipping his songsters to support McCain. But, perhaps, that's just my take on it. YMMV.

06-04-2008, 05:06 PM

scrimscraw

Rewriting history Predictable shenanigans at the LARpac site in the wake of Obama's victory, which flies in the face of Lyn's premature triumphalism. The June 2nd "We Have Won" outburst from Lyn (see above) has been replaced by "LaRouche Denounces British Imperial Drive to Control U.S. Presidential Elections" at the link for "We Have Won"!
Speaking of predictions and forecasts, can anyone recall even a single instance when Lyn has been correct? LC mythology, of course, is that LHL has always been amazingly spot-on in his predictions. Yet, it seems like the truth is much more in the vein of the "We Have Won" blooper. Even one day before the June 3rd primaries, Lyn can't get it right. Must be those darn boomers.

06-04-2008, 07:15 PM

xlcr4life

2 Attachment(s) Cult of personality handbook We have so much to cover as the cult tries new tricks to screw with the Democratic Party, more card table sightings around the US and a recent death in Leesburg which we are waiting for an official obituary to post after a a period of solemness.
First we will revisit Lyn's best friend in and VP candidate in 1992 and the PR brains behind his post prison release, The Rev James Bevel. The coverage of the trial was not nearly enough to fully give an idea of just how perverse and sick Bevel is. Reread this long Washington Post Weekend Magazine article to see what horros this man was convicted of.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...052001482.html
Bevel is a truly dangerous man who in his life with the Moon and Larouche cult shows how much self delusions and other psychological markers of cult leaders can grow when unchecked. Knowing what I know of the LC, I find it very creepy to know that he fit into the cult like a glove and sounds very familiar to Lyn and most other cult leaders in their methodology of abuse.
Reading what Eaglebeak posted from Lyn's latest gasps before death is fodder for a cheap horror movie with a madman in a bunker, or basement. Here are some selections abput Bevel from the Washington Post article
" He called himself a scientist who tried to teach his children the difference between perversion and procreation.
"What female," he raged, "produces a son that's worth a goddamn, that can stand on principles because his mother educated him early on to be principled, because she was principled? Where is one who is not a prostitute?"
None of it was new to Aaralyn, who'd heard such convoluted pseudo-philosophical outbursts so many times that she could repeat many of her father's theories herself."
"He was always so distant, she says, so detached, so uninterested in being a father to her or any of his children. They grew up calling him Jim or Rev, but never Dad."
There is the same disconnect from the reality of the crimes committed and the self importance. In a split second he takes off on a tangent like Lyn will do with any question.
"Despite having just turned down an interview request at the end of the previous week -- something he would repeatedly do, always citing his lawyer's advice even when he didn't appear to have a lawyer -- he nonetheless was delighted to be recognized and immediately led a reporter into the courtroom and sat down on a bench.
He talked about Tolstoy and Gandhi. He talked about Myles Horton, the educator who mentored King and Rosa Parks, and said this was the man who had introduced him to nonviolence."
When confronted with his own words, Bevel acts like Lyn in aming everything a conspiracy against him.
"Bevel spends much of his day on the stand explaining his unconventional views on sex and education. He acknowledges being what he calls a recovering sex addict. But he denies that he ever penetrated Aaralyn and suggests that he is the victim of a conspiracy. "Someone has plotted to destroy my reputation, my being," he tells the jury'
A few days after this article appeared, the writer, Les Carpenter, did a web interview with readers. It is worth reading to find out more.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/2008/05/22/DI2008052202148.html?tid=informbox
Here are some sections.
Silver Spring, Md.: I believe that her mother, grandmother and all of the adults who sat around to "hear" her letter about being "molested" should be arrested. They knew and did nothing to help her. They knew it was wrong whether or not it had happened to them but to ignore a child's cry for help, YOUR child's cry for help is "criminal neglect" and her mother should go to jail for as well!!
Les Carpenter: I think this is far more complicated than that. I had several conversations with her mother who seemed very conflicted about what happened. You have to realize the hold Jim Bevel has on people. Those who have been with him describe him as a powerful personality like a cult leader. They believed in him, trusted him and could not understand who something like this happened. I think Aaralyn's mother shut down emotionally and mentally upon reading the letter. She tried to resolve the matter in the way Bevel always did -- with a group discussion. But Aaralyn was uncomfortable in that setting. After hearing both of them talk I realized that it was an unfortunate circumstance where neither knew how to handle the situation. My guess is this happens far too often in cases like this.
_______________________
Fairfax County, Virginia: Once again I am puzzled by a situation where the bad person seems to me to be literally psychotic -- not someone who chose to do something wrong (and criminal), like a bank robber might, but just utterly nuts. The fact that he didn't hire a lawyer and that he is so emotionless about the whole thing make me feel he should just be committed as mentally ill, or at least kept away by court order from ever having a child near him, much less living with him, rather than jailed. A trial and the criminal justice system just doesn't seem to fit. How do you sort out the crime vs. psychosis aspect of this, or doesn't it matter to you?
Les Carpenter: I think this goes back to the question of how do you separate Bevel's success in the civil rights movement from the things he did to his daughters. Clearly he has some kind of mental illness. Most of the primary people in the movement believe this at some level. Attempts to commit him were not successful. There are stories where he was taken to a mental hospital only to dazzle the doctors with his theories and rhetoric. This goes back to the cult of personality that makes him such a powerful man. Even the people who should have helped him years ago (and prevented this) were awed by him.
_______________________
Leesburg, Va.: Very good article. It really showed what a monster Rev. Bevel is and how much his actions have harmed children and affected them for their entire lives. What I find very disturbing is how a sick man like Rev. Bevel can do these evil things for years without shame or guilt.
Have you looked closely at his work with the Moon and LaRouche cults? From what I have read, Bevel helped LaRouche after he was paroled from prison for tax evasion and defrauding his elderly supporters of millions of dollars.
Have you ever taken a close look at how the LaRouche cult with Rev. Bevel went to Nebraska when he was LaRouche's running mate and helped create a massive hoax of child abuse being run by the older Bush and the White House?
It is fitting that Rev. Bevel, who worked so hard on spreading this hoax is himself going to prison for doing incredibly sick and disgusting things to his own family.
Reading the direct quotes you have by Rev. Bevel show him to be as loony as his former running mate LaRouche.
Les Carpenter: I can't say whether Bevel failed to feel shame or guilt. He may be tormented by all of this. One never knows what goes on inside of a person's soul.
The pairing of LaRouche and Bevel is an odd one and never really seemed to make much sense. But LaRouche was the reason Bevel was in Leesburg and he clearly offered Bevel support.Supposedly the apartment where the incident in question took place had a direct line to the LaRouche headquarters and some of the people who were to look after Aaralyn at the time were LaRouche followers.

I believe that there is a lot more to be uncovered about Bevel and Larouche. Everything went pretty smoothly until the checks started to bounce and Bevel left. He was an integral part of some type of hoax involving child abuse accusations in Nebraska we have mentioned. That story originated in the Moonie Washington Times, so who knows what happened or why for now.
Now did Lyn "predict" this or did he just know about and what happened back then? According to many Lcers who were in Leesburg at the time, Bevel was looked at as a strange person you did not wish to be that close to. A current LYMette traveled with him to Nebraska for that child abuse hoax and was with him for a lengthy period. Maybe she could be asked about Bevel and being part of what was shown to be a hoax. Maybe there are things which are not to be talked about as a man who spent a lot of time working on behalf of Lyn, who Lyn ordered the LC to like, is supposed to be forgotten by deadenders , LYM and LYMettes.
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

06-04-2008, 09:03 PM

boomer70

the fate of every tyrant

Quote:
Originally Posted by scrimscraw
Speaking of predictions and forecasts, can anyone recall even a single instance when Lyn has been correct? LC mythology, of course, is that LHL has always been amazingly spot-on in his predictions. Yet, it seems like the truth is much more in the vein of the "We Have Won" blooper. Even one day before the June 3rd primaries, Lyn can't get it right. Must be those darn boomers.

People are scared of Hube so they feed him only what they know he wants to hear, so Hube's political predictions are always some off-the-wall fantasy. The fate of every tyrant.

06-05-2008, 02:02 AM

candor

See, guys, here's the deal: has anyone seen Bloomberg lately? He's running around in an Obama mask while the real Obama is being held at the Tavistock Clinic. And Hillary is just pretending to endorse "Obama" until she can organize her legions of small-r republicans to lay siege to Washington while that British-agent-of-influence Easter Bunny ...
Oy.
How do these recent whoppers factor into the forecasting stats?

06-05-2008, 06:49 AM

scrimscraw

Looking for excuses to abandon the Demo ship The latest eek from LHL, post June 3rd:
LaRouche Warns of McCain Defeat of Obama http://www.larouchepac.com/news/2008/06/04/larouche-warns-mccain-defeat-obama.html

Quote:
As bad as the Obama candidacy looks when viewed from the standpoint of the probable coming November election-results, it looks far, far worse when attention is turned to the already dangerous effects that Obama's candidacy is having on the strategic position of the United States in the world at large.
Think of the effect of the internationally known fact, that London's boy George Soros and his Democracy Alliance of billionaire speculators, are literally attempting to buy up the Democratic Party on behalf of a foreign power. They are attempting to force Hillary Clinton to drop out of the race at precisely the moment of the greatest popular support for her candidacy. This is a London-directed operation against the United States, and no patriotic American who sees this disgusting conduct can can tolerate it.
LPAC is now preparing a dossier on Soros' crooked operations, for immediate release. This will document the operations through MoveOn and other Democracy Alliance conduits, to buy off Democratic delegates, directly against the will of the people. LPAC will call on Senator Obama, as a matter of conscience, to save his sullied personal honor, by denouncing this action by MoveOn, a representative of a foreign agency, that in an action which has thus sullied Senator Obama's personal honor, and that of the party whose officials have gone as far in corruption as they have in this way.

So, let's see if we have this straight. According to Lyn, London is supporting Obama because he can't win against McCain. Ergo, London really wants McCain to win. So, if Lyn swings the LC and LYM behind McCain (and against Obama), by whatever logic, then Lyn is really aligning his troops with London. Keep that in mind, yutes, as the next few months unfold.
I'm still waiting for Bloomberg to emerge and win the whole shebang. Or is that an abandoned prediction? :confused:

06-05-2008, 07:04 AM

earnest_one

Prediction versus Forecast Scrimscraw wrote:
"I'm still waiting for Bloomberg to emerge and win the whole shebang. Or is that an abandoned prediction?"
You forgot to read the 137,982,618,199,440,432,256 page essay on the world-historical difference between predictions and forecasts.
Surely, until you master that essay everything you think about and write about will suffer from a fallacy of composition.
Note of course that LAR et. al., are suffering from the reality of decomposition.
Compost "piles" gone awry.

06-05-2008, 09:08 PM

xlcr4life

1 Attachment(s) It has been reported to a few of us that Dr John Grauerholz passed away last Tueday in his home. I wanted to wait until there were any online obituaries, but none have shown up yet. This came as a shock to his family and friends who have had to deal with this.
A few months ago I wrote that in becoming a Reverend, I hoped that Dr JG would finally find the peace in his life that he was searching for. I can not speak for Dr JG except to say that in my view, it is a shame that his life ended so soon while Lyn still lives off of every last drop taken from someone like a Dr. JG.
If you reread what was posted here you will find that Dr JG entered the LC orbit with an excitment over our music, art and science work with the same glow that many of us had in the beginning. The end was just one more nightmare of problems which I still to this day have a hard time believing happened to him.
Dr JG was a Vietnam war veteran and spoke at a Memorial Day event in 2007 in Leesburg. As I relayed info about his sudden death to former members, everyone I know who knew him extends condolences to his family.
On the few occasions I had with Dr JG, I enjoyed his calmness amid the clatter of endless lunacy called the LC. I only wish that he would have left a lot sooner so he could have enjoyed more of his life being free of this hellish distraction.
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

06-06-2008, 05:40 PM

xlcr4life

In the 1980s we set up something called the National Democratic Policy Committee and used that to invite ourselves to the Democratic party. In short time we had thousands of supporters and members running for various offices around the country. As usually is the case, Lyn and the LC ended up with a policy where you raised money from the candidates, hardly spent a dime on these elections and pulled it all back to the LC. In addition, we expecxted every person who ran on our ticket to sign over their life savings to us and you can guess what happened next.
Today we have a variation of this where the LYM and LYMettes, who signed over their lives, run for local Dem clubc positions and sneak in other races. The intial invitation based on being against Bush and yelling about FDR only goes so far as the cult is usually caught in the act of being a....... cult! Money wise, the trick is to raise everything as Lpac to control each regional office and maybe send a a few bucks out of several million to a candidate.
First we head over to Berkley California.
http://www.berkeleydailyplanet.com/issue/2008-05-29/article/30113?headline=LaRouchites-Try-for-a-Foothold-in-CountyLaRouchites Try for a Foothold in County
By Judith Scherr
Thursday May 29, 2008
Described as friendly, brilliant and bright-eyed—and at the same time as scary and cult-like—six LaRouche Democrats are running for Alameda County Democratic Central Committee (ACDCC) slots.
Historical complaints about the LaRouchites—racism, homophobia and sexism—are not the salient characteristics noted by local Democratic Party activists concerned about the mostly under-30 crop of Lyndon LaRouche followers in Alameda County.
"They're trying to get a foothold in the Democratic Party," said Edie Irons, who is running for a seat on the ACDCC on the Grassroots Progressive (GP) slate in the June 3 election.
"We're all really concerned—it's anxiety-provoking," said Sumi Parajape, also stumping for a slot on the Central Committee as part of the same slate. LaRouchites have run in the county before with one or two candidates. "There's never been a full slate of Lyndon LaRouche supporters," Parajape said.
Concerns of a half-dozen local Democratic Party activists contacted by the Planet center around the group's apparent intent to move the committee away from its current activities doing local organizing around concrete issues such as health care and improved working conditions.
Repeated attempts by the Planet to reach the LaRouche candidates were unsuccessful.
Irons described the behavior of LaRouchites when they come to the county meetings: "Mostly, they're pretty quiet in meetings—then they'll ask a non-sequitor question," she said.
Irons talked about her interaction with a member of the Lyndon LaRouche Youth Movement (LYM) at a recent Democratic Party state convention.
"He wound up telling me what we have to do is explore the planet Mars and bring back the space program," she said.
Irons described the group at a recent state convention: "It was a large group, all under 30-years-old—a lot of people of color. It was overwhelmingly men. They aggressively passed out literature."
And they were singing.
Douglas MacLean, communications director for Assemblymember Sandre Swanson, observed them singing just outside the convention. "I think they were singing their platform," he said, "something about FDR, global warming and an international conspiracy."
Several persons who have had contact with the LaRouchites said they were exceptionally bright. "He gets smart kids," said Mark Briggs, who is running for a slot on the committee with the Grassroots Progressives. Briggs said that the LaRouchites talk impressively about international politics—but do so when the discussion is focused around other questions, such as how to build the local party.
None of the local Democratic Party activists contacted by the Planet felt they knew the purpose of the LaRouchites' attempted entry into the local party structure.
"When they speak, it's like they're presenting an ideological statement, more like diatribes," said Howard Egerman, a 14-year member of the ACDCC, describing a meeting held by Rep. Barbara Lee at the Allen Temple Baptist Church in East Oakland: "They kept asking strange questions—and singing," he said.
"I'm not able to truly understand what they want to do," Irons said. "Their weird evangelism is off-putting to me."
On the League of Women Voters' website, LaRouchite candidate Ian Overton has posted a "position paper," written by Amelia Robinson, of the Schiller Institute, one of the institutions associated with the LaRouche organization. The paper is more of a letter of advice to the six LaRouche candidates: Overton, Jon Stuart (incumbent), Ben Deniston, John Craig, Ramiro Bravo and Oyang Teng.
In part, it says: "Though this is a seriously messed-up world, with Lyn's and Helga's [Lyndon and Helga LaRouche] wisdom and experience you can't go wrong. You are building the foundation for bigger and better positions (be sure you keep your mind and body clean), so don't stop keeping your eyes on the prize (President). Above all, keep your hand in the Hand (God's) of the man who troubles the waters. To get to the top, be kind, patient, and loving, as well as truthful."
Another aspect of the group that worries local Democrats is that the LaRouchites apparently get paid for their work in the Democratic Party.
"The rest of us have regular jobs," said Howard Egerman, a 14-year member of the ACDCC. He said the question of paid activism came up at a Metropolitan Greater-Oakland Democratic Club candidates' forum. "The question was, 'Are you paid?' They said, 'yes,'" he said. The statement was confirmed by a second person attending the meeting.
The purpose of the 40-member ACDCC is to build the Democratic Party at the grass roots—register voters, search out candidates, endorse people running for office and actively campaign for them.
The LaRouche Democrats do not do the nuts and bolts work of building the party and supporting candidates, Egerman said.
"I'd like to see someone from our party as governor" and getting good appointments for judges, but "they're thinking only about Lyndon LaRouche." Egerman said.
Lyndon LaRouche, 85, has run for president eight times since 1978, seven times on the Democratic Party ticket. In the 1990s he was convicted of tax and mail fraud and served five years of a 15-year sentence. Researcher and writer Chip Berlet notes that LaRouche claimed he has no income "although he lived in a huge mansion surrounded by armed guards, and regularly jetted around the globe...." (See www.publiceye.org/larouche/truestory.html.)
Sumi Paranjape, running on the Grassroots Progressive slate, told the Planet that most voters don't know who is running. They will look at their ballot and all the information they'll get are names and occupations.
The cultlike nature of the group is of concern, Egerman said. "The overall goals are tied to one person—Lyndon LaRouche."
"Something about them makes you uneasy," said Rodney Brooks, chief of staff to Supervisor Keith Carson.
For information from Lyndon LaRouche, see www.larouchepac.com.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Next we go to Texas where Lpac carpetbagger Harley Schlanger is supposed to be a featured speaker here.
http://www.ghdc.org/2008/05/30/economic-truth-behind-rising-prices-gas-food-heights-library-1-4pm-sat-may-31/
The odd thing is that the comments section have been posted, removed, posted a few times so who knows what was going on. I was sent this version of the site before the comments were removed.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Posted in Events, GHDC Blog at 12:01 pm by M Beauregard
How has the US been so caught off guard and with its pants down on the supply of critical commodities?
Larouche Speaker Harley Schlanger:
will give us insight into the speculation and corporate selfishness that has triggered rising prices of all commodities.
Permalink
Comments »
Lyn Marcus said,
May 31, 2008 at 10:49 am
Harley Schlanger is a long term cult recruiter and leader for a pack of convicted criminals and college drop out cult run for 40 or so years by the anti semitic lunatic con man Lyndon Larouche. Schlanger spends his time between Texes where his wife runs a boiler room to raise money for Laoruche's multi millionaire life style and LA where the cult tries desperately to get naive college aged kids to drop out of school to worship larouche.
Don't let Schlanger con you into thinking that the cult and larouche are Democrats. They exploit their members like every other cult by calling them "volunteers" and skip out on paying Democratice ideals like a minimum wage and benefits. Larouche has been running this cult scam for decades and every so often has to replenish the membership which gets burnt out or starts to cost too much.
Ask Harley why he worships the ground larouche walks on for scraps and enjoys hearing this about future Democratic candidate Obama Barack in a meeting in April.
"I mean: Obama is a racist. I mean, with an African father–he wasn't much of an African father, but was an African father of Kenya. He was part of a British operation, which took over Kenya, through MI5's operation. But this guy was away from Kenya, and he married a Margaret Mead type, a woman who had a number of successive husbands, like Margaret Mead did. Went out to the poor, brown people, in Asia, and had sex with them! It was called "Coming in Samoa." [groans, laughter] And she wore through a number of successive husbands, and by them, had various children. And therefore, you'll find Obama's ancestry, if you chase his family tree, everybody's climbing and swinging from the branches there–from all over the world! All parts of the world! This guy is the universal man. Every monkey in every tree, from every part of the world, has participated in the sexual act of producing him. And he works for organized crime–which is a branch of British intelligence. "
This crazy cult has stalked Al Gore around the country and bragged about they penetrated his security in several cities. The cult has whipped it's members into a crazed hysteria with larouche ranting and screaming that Al Gore is leading a world wide conspiracy with the British to kill 2 billion dark skinned people by taling about Global Warming.
Please do not let this shyster Democrat who wears an FDR Halloween mask to puul the wool over your eyes like they have with some other local Dem offices.
Harley and his wife were very onvovled and quite aware of the 3o million or so the cult stole from the elderly in the 1980s where many of their cocultists were sent to prison with larouche.
Just do a google search of larouche and "crime" "tax evasion" "anti semitism" "Nazi" "cult" "victims" to find numerous articles about this interloper.
Web sites like
laroucheplanet.info
lyndonlarouchewatch.org
justiceforjeremiah.com
factnet.org under "discussions" has over 4 thousand posts from former memebrs about how the cult operates.
In fact, Harley was one of the leading voices in smearing the mother of a young Jewish student from Britain who died in unusual circumstances in a German Conference of the cult. His mother has been fightin this cult for years to find out what happened to her son.
This guy is creepy and has spent about 40 years licking the boots of Larouche and will do anything to connive your group . Read up and find out that the cult has done numerous dirty tricks against Democrats on behalf of GOP operatives.
Just by letting this bum speak before your group you are giving aid and comfort to this cult of crazies.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Still in Texas, we find something strange going on at this Texas Dem Blog site. After the initial Lpac release was posted, it was later corrected.
http://www.thetexasblue.com/larouche-etc-updated#comments
LaRouche, Etc. (Updated)
By Josh Berthume
Tue, 06/03/2008 - 1:22pm
LaRouchePAC is back on the scene just ahead of this week's Texas Democratic Party State Convention, brandishing a press release detailing a request for support and / or an endorsement from TDP Vice Chair Roy LaVerne Brooks. Brooks is running against incumbent TDP Chairman Boyd Richie for that leadership position.
UPDATE: Apparently the press release was wrong. Post updated with new information.
Here is the statement and correction sent last night by Michael Maddi, speaking on behalf of LaRouchePAC, reproduced in part:
The press release is not accurate in stating that Roy LaVerne Brooks asked for the endorsement of the LaRouche Political Action Committee and never actually states that she sought Lyndon LaRouche's personal endorsement. It is the case that she contacted Kesha Rogers to ask Kesha to support her campaign.
As I'm sure you remember, Kesha was one of four candidates two years ago for Texas Democratic Party Chair. I believe that many of the delegates were tremendously impressed by Kesha's optimism and passion for building the Democratic Party across the state. I can't speak for Ms. Brooks, but I believe that's what motivated her to seek Kesha's support.
The press release has been pulled from the website and should be posted soon in a more accurate form.
So, we should take this to mean that the official position of LaRouchePAC is that Roy LaVerne Brooks was not actually seeking a LaRouche endorsement, but rather support from Kesha Rogers.
More soon.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The original press release:
PRESS RELEASE
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
`Candidate of Change' Image Takes a Hit in Texas
June 1, 2008 (EIRNS)-This release was issued on May 31 by the Lyndon
LaRouche Political Action Committee (LPAC).
On the eve of the Texas Democratic Party state convention, which opens
next Thursday in Austin, the national Obama campaign has demonstrated again
that it has no interest in the young voters it has activated, except to have
them cast a vote for Obama, then disappear from sight. Texas Party Vice
Chairwoman, Roy LaVerne Brooks, who is a candidate for state Chair at the
upcoming convention, was told by Rudy Shank, from the national Obama
campaign, that she should drop out of the race, "because they would like a
convention without hurt feelings."
Brooks, who cut her teeth in Texas politics working with former U.S.
House Speaker Jim Wright, asked Kesha Rogers and the LaRouchePAC to back her
candidacy for state Chair. She agreed that the content of her campaign
should be the concept put forward by Lyndon LaRouche in his "Bind the
Wounds" statement, and not centered around the "phenomenon" of Obama. She
has run her campaign based on the idea of returning the Party to the
tradition of FDR and the American System, and recruiting new voters to this
perspective. As a result, she has been endorsed by some leaders among the
Hispanic Dems, who are backers of Hillary.
However, she came under pressure last week from the national Obama
camp, which pushed her to turn on black leaders who were not supporting
Obama. Kesha Rogers advised her she would never win on the basis of racial
identity, nor by attaching herself to a media cooked-up rock star persona,
and that, instead, the deeper issue to take up in her campaign is that of
developing among new voters an understanding of the real issue, FDR vs. the
Brits, and winning them over to the FDR tradition, rather than the
opportunistic approach of the faith-based, Elmer Gantry delivery system.
Over the last two days, the national Obama campaign changed its
approach. Roy LaVerne was contacted by Rudy Shank, who was sent by the
national campaign to Texas, to produce an "harmonic outcome" at the Texas
convention. As part of this strategy, she was told she should drop out of
the race for state chair. If she refused, the Obama campaign would take away
her status as a superdelegate.
If she agreed to this demand, her status as a superdelegate would be
maintained, even though her term as Vice-Chair ends at the conclusion of the
state convention.
When she briefed Kesha on these developments, we told her she should
fight this, by going public. She hesitated until yesterday, when it was
announced that the incumbent State Chair, and her opponent, Boyd Richie, has
endorsed Obama, thus making it clear that the Obama campaign had gone behind
her back. Richie, who is a flunkey for the existing Democratic Party
establishment in Texas - which is essentially the same DLC-types who have
destroyed the state party - had been uncommitted.
In the May 30 Houston Chronicle, political columnist Rick Casey ran an
article on this battle, under the headline "An Obama mystery at state meet."
Casey makes the obvious point in his reporting on this scandal:
"There are ironies in the request by an Obama operative that Brooks
back off the chairman's race.
"One is that she is an African-American. The state Democratic chairman
has traditionally been a white male, with an occasional white female
slipping in.
"Another is that Brooks is casting herself as a 'change' from the good
ol' boy system. Brooks' chances of unseating Richie are enhanced by several
thousand change-oriented newcomers who will swell the convention to about
triple its normal size.
"All this begs the question: Why would the national Obama campaign
involve itself in a state [chair] race?"
After reviewing the business-as-usual monkey business in the Texas
Democratic Party, in which minorities are taken for granted, and given
secondary, token roles, Casey concludes his article as follows:
"Brooks said she told Shank she would stay in the race. "'I made the
comment that I may need to jump over to Hillary's side because I'm not going
to be treated like a dish rag,' she said.
"I asked if she was serious.
"'I'm very serious if they keep trying to get me out of the race and I
learn that Obama is behind it,' she said."
These developments confirm what Lyndon LaRouche had said six weeks
ago, when he was given a report from Kesha Rogers from the district caucuses
which had convened to choose the national delegates. Kesha reported that,
despite the influx of thousands of new people, who had been activated by the
rock-star-hype around Obama, the Obama delegate slots were going to the old
party hacks. Lyndon LaRouche said that this is the clear pattern, that
Rohatyn, Pelosi, Dean, were going to use these young voters - many of who
have been mobilized as MySpace/Facebook zombies - for their votes, then cast
them aside.
This morning, LaRouche said this fits the pattern of the effort, by
the DNC, to disenfranchise the primary voters in Florida and Michigan, at
their meeting on May 31.
Kesha Rogers is presently at a Credentials Committee meeting, asking
leading Democrats what they think of how the Obama campaign has lined up
with the British in Africa, while organizing to keep the plantation system
in the Texas Dem Party. She said that there is recognition of the problem,
and both anger and discomfort over it. (HCS)
For your reference, this is the Chronicle article referenced in the release.
There's quite a bit to get into here. We'll be examining this and other events in upcoming news reports and analyses on the race for Texas Democratic Party Chair.
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Someone Needs A New PR FlackBy Patrick M McLeod
Mon, 06/02/2008 - 4:30pm
I'm in Oregon until Wednesday, but I couldn't wait to comment on this release.
If there's one thing that a candidate casting themselves as the really-real outsider ought to avoid, it's associating herself with a group who denigrates the very people she seeks to represent. Stereotyping newly mobilized voters as "Myspace/Facebook zombies" is foolishly amateur and it makes her sound like a Luddite.
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Another one from the "You're not helping" departmentBy WhosPlayin
Tue, 06/03/2008 - 12:08am
All the way around on this one. Seeking endorsement and/or taking advice or PR help from the LaRouches? The more I think about what has transpired here, the more concerns I have. Richie and Brooks have both done good things for the party, but nothing smells right about any of this. I'm glad not to be a delegate this year.
Steve Southwell
WhosPlayin? Blog: http://www.whosplayin.com
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Supporting a convicted con man's cult is not progressive folks.By Lyn Marcus
Tue, 06/03/2008 - 11:05am
How is it that progressive Dems are being conned by a cult led by an 85 year old convicted anti semitic mad man who has been doing this for decades and decades? Larouche and the cult know that to spread his lunacy they have to con Dems which is why they call themselves FDR Dems and use the anger against Bush and Cheney to hoodwink Democrats.
Larouche and his followers have been doing dirty tricks on behalf of the GOP in every election. Larouche and the cult can spin in any direction to raise money and recruit naive college kids to drop out of school and worship around the clock for a few bucks a day. How can a Democratic org which on one hand fights to raise the minimum wage give the time of day to a cult leader who sets up his devotees as "volunteers" ? The cult works them around the clock through a myriad of corporate shells and fundraising schemes until they are burnt out and left to rot like most of his older members in their Leesburg Virginia HQ.
Do you really want to be associated with a crazed cult which has it's members set up card table shrines for Larouche with signs that say "Stop Al Gore from eating African babies"?
http://www.joeydevilla.com/2008/06/0...use-the-silly-...
Here is an internal memo by the cult whre Laoruche tells you what he thinks of Obama.
" I mean: Obama is a racist. I mean, with an African father--he wasn't much of an African father, but was an African father of Kenya. He was part of a British operation, which took over Kenya, through MI5's operation. But this guy was away from Kenya, and he married a Margaret Mead type, a woman who had a number of successive husbands, like Margaret Mead did. Went out to the poor, brown people, in Asia, and had sex with them! It was called "Coming in Samoa." [groans, laughter] And she wore through a number of successive husbands, and by them, had various children. And therefore, you'll find Obama's ancestry, if you chase his family tree, everybody's climbing and swinging from the branches there--from all over the world! All parts of the world! This guy is the universal man. Every monkey in every tree, from every part of the world, has participated in the sexual act of producing him. And he works for organized crime--which is a branch of British intelligence.
So why are people sucked into this thing? And what's wrong with the way we react to this phenomenon, as it affects the population in general? It's not just Obama. Obama is a disease, but he's not the infectious agent that caused the disease. He's a product of the disease, not a cause of it."
Just do a search about Larouche and "Cult" "crime" "Jews" and see what kind of lunatic unsuspecting Dems have been unwittingly promoting. When you give the time of day to this creepy cult they will use that to call more Dems for money for Larouche and try to convince another naive college kid to drop out of school and follow this lunacy.
Try sites like
justiceforjeremiah.com
laroucheplanet.org
lyndonlarouchewatch.org
kennethkronberg.com
factnet.org and do a larouche or larouche youth movement search .
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Source itBy Josh Berthume
Tue, 06/03/2008 - 1:10pm
Regardless of how you feel about LaRouche, that's a hotly racist block of quote there. Do you have a source for it other than lyndonlarouchewatch.org? The page that contains that quote is here, and Wonkette cited the same page here, but one anti-source source and one citation does not a verified quote make.
If it is true, it is worth reporting. If it isn't true or can't be verified, it is just perpetuating something that, er, can't be verified.
I'm gonna see if I can get a statement from LaRouchePAC about this quote.
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Laoruche cult insanityBy Lyn Marcus
Wed, 06/04/2008 - 1:24pm
The quotes are from an internal meeting Larouche conducted with his "Larouche Youth" (the name alone should creep anyone out). It was part of what is called "the daily briefing" which sent out each morning to the membership. The briefing is both marching orders and a non stop continuous replay of end of the world lunacy to keep the cult going around the clock. What is in it always "proves" that the cult leader is correct and humanity is doomed unless Larouche's visions are carried out. No Sh*t, this is as crazy as it sounds and has been going on for decades.
Here is something to show you how the lunacy erupts and is shared among the cult.
When Al Gore was VP there were several articles about how he changed the landscaping at the VP estate to reflect native plants to promote using less resources high pesticide gardening. How did the cult view this?
Well, they wrote a big article about how this "proves' that Al Gore is a Nazi and is part of a world wide conspiracy to eliminate a few billion dark skinned people!
Read it here:
http://www.larouchepub.com/eiw/public/2007/2007_10-19/2007_10-19/2007-13
IS THAT HITLER IN YOUR GARDEN? NO THAT'S AL GORE.
"When Al Gore was Vice President, living at the mansion in the park of U.S. Naval Observatory, he embarked on a project to restore the grounds, especially the gardens and forest.An article describing this project at the time Gore was
running for President, stated, "Gore restored the rich diversity and lush beauty of his own backyard by yanking out FOREIGN EXOTICA IN FAVOR OF NATIVE PLANTS."(emphasis added; www. homegardens.move.com ). Treating plants as if they were unwanted foreigners from the "mixed races of the south" or other unwanted immigrants under orders from Gore, the gardeners "dug out all exotic plants," including such "invasive" immigrants as English ivy and garlic mustard from
Europe and Kudzu from Japan. Gore's interest in gardens comes from the same fascist roots as his lying CO2 campaign that could make Joseph Goebbels blush "
There are pages and pages of rantings from Larouche about Al Gore, Nancy Pelosi and other demented delusions. In the cult's mind and memos they firmly believe that Hillary is being attacked as part of a conspiracy because Larouche is involved in guiding her!
Do not get fooled by seeing an African American and wondering about how Larouche can be so wicked about Obama. This is a cult of personality and nothing more. The LarouchePac raised several millions form their boiler roms but issued a thousand or so dollars to Dem candidates when you view FEC records over the years. Larouche has a lot of experience in using different ethnic and religions to find money and recruits while he wails away against them.
Ask Ms Rogers if she is paid the minumum wage along with the rest of the cult's members around the country? The cult classifies her as a "volunteer" and uses that to avoid spending any more money than what is needed to keep Ms Rogers from starving. When she needs more health care and her costs rise, she will become like several hundred older members she knows who are pushed out by Larouche.
Ms Rogers should tell you about how she files income taxes if the money which is spent by LarouchePac on the expenses of the cult members is reported as taxable income . In this model you pay members less taxable income and report it as an expense somewhere else.
Ms Rogers can also tell you about just how much the cult has paid back to the elderly supporters whose money they stole in the 1980s when larouche and many of his fundraisers were convicted and sent to prison. She may tell you some baloney that "Larouche is a political prisoner". She was just born when we were stealing millions and has been kept very ignorant of the several decades of daily Larouche lunacy .
Ms Rogers was just a baby when the cult worked hand in hand with GOP operatives and spread rumours about Michael Dukakis being treated for mental illness during that election. Larouche did a lot of dirty work against the Democratic party and sends in his cult like cock roaches who fool local clubs by being anti Bush and channeling FDR through Larouche.
These are not Democrats, not volunteers and nothing more than a cult led by a madman who needs young naive fools like Ms Rogers to drop out of college and spend their prime years keeping him alive in his delusionary world of mythical enemies and plots against him.
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2006By John McClelland
Tue, 06/03/2008 - 1:20pm
Did they not field an African American female in her 20s for state party chair in 2006? So I really can't go along with the "LaRouche PAC is racist" bit.
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YeahBy Josh Berthume
Tue, 06/03/2008 - 1:37pm
That was Kesha Rogers, named in the press release.
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+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
In the past the cult ran old timne LCer Claude Jones for a part position and then promptly sent him to Leesburg. In Leesburg Claude worked in some computer video occupatiuon and uyou can usually find him on computer blogs being called an idiot and culotist whenever he starts to bring Larouche up to people who can google lyn in a split second. Smart thinking Claude, keep it up and keep us signing over your money to the cult.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=940DE7D91F3DF933A25750C0A96E948260
Supporter of LaRouche Wins Democratic Post in Houston
E-MAIL Print Save Share
DiggFacebookMixxYahoo! BuzzPermalinkSPECIAL TO THE NEW YORK TIMES
Published: March 10, 1988
LEAD: Local Democratic leaders here spent the day trying to explain how a supporter of Lyndon H. LaRouche Jr., the extremist politician, was elected Tuesday as chairman of the Harris County Democratic Party.
Local Democratic leaders here spent the day trying to explain how a supporter of Lyndon H. LaRouche Jr., the extremist politician, was elected Tuesday as chairman of the Harris County Democratic Party.
We don't know how it happened, said Bill Ramsey, executive director of the group. I don't think anyone expected it.
The LaRouched supporter, Claude Jones, defeated the incumbent, Larry Veselka, by 51 percent to 49 percent. Mr. Jones said in the campaign that he supports Mr. LaRouche, a Presidential candidate who believes in global conspiracies involving prominent people.
Harris County, which includes Houston, is thought to be key to the Democrat's hopes of winning in November.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=940DEFD6123CF934A25757C0A96E948260
Houston Democrats Strip Chairman of Power
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Published: April 17, 1988
LEAD: The executive committee of the Democratic Party in Harris County has stripped virtually all power from the newly elected chairman, a supporter of the political extremist Lyndon H. LaRouche Jr. The committee, consisting of the 664 precinct chairmen in the county, which includes all of Houston, acted Friday, giving final approval on a voice vote to new party bylaws that had been initially passed March 11, three days after Claude Jones's surprising victory over the incumbent chairman, Larry Veselka.
The executive committee of the Democratic Party in Harris County has stripped virtually all power from the newly elected chairman, a supporter of the political extremist Lyndon H. LaRouche Jr. The committee, consisting of the 664 precinct chairmen in the county, which includes all of Houston, acted Friday, giving final approval on a voice vote to new party bylaws that had been initially passed March 11, three days after Claude Jones's surprising victory over the incumbent chairman, Larry Veselka.
Mr. Jones won the March 8 election with 54,394 votes, or 51 percent, to Mr. Veselka's 51,318 votes, or 49 percent. Mr. Veselka, a lawyer, said he lost because he had been unable to campaign because he was handling a case outside the Houston area. Support for Jones
The new bylaws give powers to the party secretary that were previously held by the chairman, including record-keeping and managing party finances. The secretary will be elected May 2. About a half-dozen supporters of Mr. Jones protested at the meeting, carrying signs reading, Larry, don't be a sore loser and Will Harris County executives reject majority rule?
I kind of expected that it would be passed, Mr. Jones said of the bylaw changes. It passed without a quorum, so you know what that tells you.
On Thursday, a State District Judge, Melinda Harmon, denied without comment a request from Mr. Jones to block the changes in the bylaws. Mr. Jones had argued that the changes would interfere with his statutory duties.
There have been numerous wild and paranoid statements, making it very clear they will do everything they can to contain me, he said Thursday.
Mr. Jones, who is 40 years old, said Friday that he did not know whether he would take the issue back to court.
Mr. Jones, who was defeated by Mr. Veselka in 1986, said his sole occupation is working for Mr. LaRouche. He said he runs solicitation booths for the LaRouche organization at airports and other public places.
Mr. Jones said he would back the Democratic Presidential nominee although he supports Mr. LaRouche, who, among other positions, has accused Queen Elizabeth II of drug trafficking and espouses a quarantine of AIDS patients.

Since those article are from 1988, Claude should be pushing 60 now, which is not a safe age to be in Leesburg these days. Harley is still trying to spread the lunacy before his number comes up.
This is nothing but the same old side show LYM and LYMettes. Try working with a real Democratic office and you will be going places instead of going to the steets to inhale carcinogens for Lyn.
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

06-07-2008, 07:28 AM

eaglebeak

Sweet Smell of Success The case of Claude Jones and the Harris County, Texas Democratic Party is an instructive one.
What it instructs us is that LaRouche can't handle success, can't handle real organizing, and has throughout his "career" ("careen" might be a better word) done all in his power to sabotage any potential success on the part of his followers (the Boomers, that is).
When Claude Jones was elected chairman of the Harris County Democratic Party, that was quite a feat--especially since that is, or was, the largest county Democratic Party structure in the country.
The almost immediate LaRouche response, as XLCR notes, was to pull Claude out of Texas and bring him to Leesburg. There would be no mass organizing from the vantage point of the chairmanship of the local party. There would be no outreach, no evangelizing, as it were, inside the Democratic Party.
Far from it. The LaRouche org fled from its success.
And of course, no way were Lyn and Harley going to give Claude Jones even an instant's prestige, satisfaction, or independent power as the Harris County chair. He had to be busted down to rank private (as Lyn once said so memorably of Ed Spannaus), to prove that Lyn was still boss, even if Claude had actually been elected to a position of some potential clout.
Mass Organizing? No Thanks
Every time anyone in the org looked as if he or she were about to achieve something, Lyn did the same thing. (Remember the DC General organizing? Remember how Lyn knifed Ed and Nancy in the back on that one? I always figured Dennis Speed, who started the DC General organizing, was the one who ratted them out to Lyn, but however it happened, he went crazy at the idea that there was some organizing around a serious community issue that might succeed, and that had zero to do with him.)
Old-timers will remember the candidates' movement, when we had hundreds, maybe even a thousand, candidates running all over the country as "LaRouche Democrats." Well, that didn't happen twice--at a memorable NC meeting at Windy Hill in, say, 2000 or 2001, one of the NCs who shortly thereafter exited, asked Lyn about a candidates' movement, a mass movement.
Guess what Lyn said? (Any LaRouche watcher knows this one.) He said HE was the only issue, HIS candidacy was the only issue, HE was the only item on the agenda, blah blah etc., and anyone who didn't realize that was either a fool or a liar or ....
Dennis Speed no doubt remembers that exchange, because the NC member who raised the question had alerted Dennis beforehand that s/he was going to do this, and had pointed out Lyn's probable answer, and had pointed out what that meant about Lyn.
One of the most striking examples of LaRouche sabotage of followers' efforts was, of course, Lyn's brilliant plan to "save" WorldComp and PMR in 2006. We all know how well that worked--but Lyn was still touting it only a few months ago (April, to be exact).
Of that, more anon.
All This Is Nothing New
Meanwhile, let's not forget Lyn's famous sabotage/self-sabotage at, say, the 1969 Penn sit-in. After weeks of organizing by Swarthmore LCers and others, Lyn was invited to speak. All his followers watched with bated breath. (The book "The Rise and Fall of the New Left" describes the Labor Committee as "the most important sectarian force" at the Penn sit-in.) When the Great Man arrived to speak, though, he didn't speak about the war, or the civil rights movement--he spoke about the Greek junta. Not for the first time, perhaps--and certainly not for the last--Lyn's words fell as flat as pancake.
Or how about NUWRO a couple of years later? The "founding conference" of NUWRO, which occurred in March 1973, had been built for throughout the second half of 1972 by CRNWRO (look up the acronyms, LYMers--too much trouble to type it all out). It was the biggest deal in the world. Couldn't have been more important. All humanity depended on it.
But on Der Tag--Lyn didn't show up at the founding conference at all.... He claimed he was "sick." The truth was, he was afraid to have to address all those welfare mothers.
Yes, Lyn's deepest, darkest secret, locked in the dungeon of his heart, is that he's terrified of success, terrified of addressing the masses, terrified of mass organizing, terrified of POLITICS.
What he likes is to sit around with a small clutch of adoring followers, and babble. No outside judgment, no discernment, no criticism, no Other to confront.
Once again, boys and girls, we see that the operative principle is FEAR.

06-07-2008, 07:45 PM

borisbad

Eaglebeak's description is dead on. When I think about his past antics, I don't think Lyn ever addressed a mass rally since perhaps the late 60s. Of course, he can address a crowd of evangelized souls at one of his conferences where everybody is pre-screened and pre-checked. But not where there is any possible spontaneous questions that can upset Lyn's credibility.
I found this article from the SWP's Militant when LaRouche tried to speak at a Million Man March followup rally in 1996, he was booed off the stage and had to be escorted by members of the NOI and none other than James Bevel.
http://www.themilitant.com/1996/6036/6036_28.html

06-07-2008, 08:37 PM

boomer70

"The masses are asses," kind of sums up Hube's view of ordinary people.

06-08-2008, 10:05 PM

boomersage

LaRouche and the masses That piece about the '96 black political convention is cringe-inducing, especially in light of LaRouche's recent screed (screeds-plural, actually) about Obama, but it's not atypical. Bevel is, well, Bevel, and Benjamin Chavis was fired as executive director of the NAACP for improperly using org funds to settle a sexual harassment suit. They'd pursued him eagerly too.
I'll just add the following re James Bevel. It comes from the autobiography of Cong. John Lewis, "Walking With the Wind," p. 408:
"He [Bevel] had always been an intense, on-the-edge person, but the shooting of Dr. King sent him over the edge. By the summer of 1970, he was still with the SCLC, but his behavior had had turned more emotionally erratic than ever. . . . I'd hear about him here and there, when he was in and out of Atlanta, but what I heard early that summer was hard to believe, even by Bevel standards. It happened in one of the hotel rooms above Paschal's [landmark civil rights movement restaurant and gathering-place in Atlanta]. Bevel had gathered around him a number of students from Spelman College, along with several SCLC staffers -- about a dozen people, all told -- and sequestered the group and himself there above Paschal's for several days, with the door locked, never leaving, ordering food from downstairs. Bevel was convinced that he had become a prophet of some kind, and he spent those several days preaching to the group, writing on the walls with Magic Markers, telling them they had to believe in him. He had enough influence and charisma to keep these young people there. But when, according to later reports from some of the participants, he urinated in a glass and told them they had to drink it to prove they were true followers, they'd had enough."
(Lewis, incidentially, goes on to mention that in the subsequent vote of the SCLC board to expel Bevel, only he (Lewis) and Andrew Young opposed expulsion, Lewis taking the position that the man was sick and the organization he'd worked for had an obligation to help him.)
Lewis's book was published in 1998, but Bevel's history wasn't exactly unknown when he was courted and married to the NCLC ten years before that. In the 1980s Bevel was partly or mainly based in Chicago, and I know for certain that the LC kept a very suspicious eye on him, in connection with his GOP ties and otherwise. Despite LaRouche's pose of being the super-principled leader who caters to no one, the organization, and he himself, have chronically, and desperately, sought out and cultivated alliances with a variety of individuals and groups, some less wholesome than others, no matter what panegyrics were required to succeed -- OK, let's say there were sometimes s-o-m-e constraints on that kind of thing, but not too many. Of late, they apparently find nothing but healthy instincts in Robert Mugabe, the Chinese leadership, Putin & Co., the Burmese dictatorship, the Clinton duo, etc., etc. Of course, that doesn't say much about what they thought during previous ideological or tactical gyrations, or the next one, or the one after that. It's an old story.

06-10-2008, 01:20 PM

eaglebeak

Quick! Who Said That? "You have to behave in the meantime. And that's why you're in danger.
"I'm quite serious, but I most (sic) playful when I'm most serious, as many of you know. I'm like a cat: Before I kill, I'm playful. I thought you'd like that!"
Voice 2: "Look on the mantle."
"Looking for the shrunken heads."
And so begins another godawful session with Mr. Big* and the gang. More to come.


*Not the Mr. Big of "Sex and the City," but the Mr. Big of Dick Tracy fame.

06-12-2008, 12:12 AM

xlcr4life

Quote:
Originally Posted by eaglebeak
Meanwhile, let's not forget Lyn's famous sabotage/self-sabotage at, say, the 1969 Penn sit-in. After weeks of organizing by Swarthmore LCers and others, Lyn was invited to speak. All his followers watched with bated breath. (The book "The Rise and Fall of the New Left" describes the Labor Committee as "the most important sectarian force" at the Penn sit-in.) When the Great Man arrived to speak, though, he didn't speak about the war, or the civil rights movement--he spoke about the Greek junta. Not for the first time, perhaps--and certainly not for the last--Lyn's words fell as flat as pancake.................
Yes, Lyn's deepest, darkest secret, locked in the dungeon of his heart, is that he's terrified of success, terrified of addressing the masses, terrified of mass organizing, terrified of POLITICS.
What he likes is to sit around with a small clutch of adoring followers, and babble. No outside judgment, no discernment, no criticism, no Other to confront.
Once again, boys and girls, we see that the operative principle is FEAR.


Amazing in that Lyn finally figured out that it is better to have a few hundred adoring followers as EagleBeak describes in pulling off cheap parlor tricks. Also funny how Lyn began to do a disertation on the Greek Juanta which has nothing to do with most people there were for. This is a real condidtion of Lyn's mind as the whole history of the LC publications is filled to the brim with endless centerfolds and opuses of Lyn which start off with amybe a page about the topic at hand and then consist 98 % of something completely different as they say on Monty Python.
This was something so expected that we would loke about this whenever a new issue of NS would arrive or the teletype had a huge nearly endless loop of paper on the floor when you came into the local office each morning.
Now this particular event at Penn happened in 1969, which would place it around the time our resident tail pipe sniffer and card table shriner and original LC founder Steve Komm was in. I do not know the exact dates of Steve Komm's founding of the LC, however, he should be an expert on just how Greek Juanta's were so important in the student demonstrations . Perhaps what Lyn was doing was sublimally injecting Steve Komm with this lunacy to get him to except how the LC "Greek Mafia" was the cause of Lyn's failure to take over the universe in 1980.
Lyn's poor man's Svengali hold on Steve Komm has lasted for nearly 4 decades with Steve Komm not having a clue as to just how kooky this whole thing has been as everyone he knows has left or is dying off. Steve met a nice girl in the early 1980s and his wife Connie has spent over 25 years in this lunacy as well.
With Connie, she gets a different cheap parlor trick by being fed a diet of regular updates by Lyn such as this one:
http://www.larouchepac.com/node/10817
which was posted here earlier. I meant to post at the time that this LPAC release by Lyn is a carbon copy of numerous memos issued by Lyn with the same lines in principal. It is designed for the remaining cult members to forget about whatever Lyn was screaming about two months ago, but that he has inside knowledge on how the Rockefellers, The British, The Venetians, The Olympians, The Leesburg 4H Club and whatever else is secretly running the world and only he knows how to "box" , "Judo" or play chess with them. You carbon inhaling Lym and Lymettes MUST stick around to influence the globe to save humanity for the 5,490 time from Rocky's , The British or whatever's New Dark Ages.
Connie Komm has been reading this for decades, but it is all a blur to her as one mobe runs into another and another and another....... If you are like Connie and Steve and living in this very insular world for decade after decade, you have no bearings or reference point to figure out that this is all a delusion .
This is how it all turns out LYM and LYMettes. It is your personal version of a hamster cage where no matter what or how much you do, it all ends up in a blur of diesel smoke at a card table shrine.
Here is video to see just how your life ends up when you do the same thing for a quarter century and never stop to examine what happened to your life.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VY2D9A5k_OM
Connie is at the 1 minute 30 sec mark.
Here she is talking about something completely foreign to her and Steve, owning a house. What she and Steve are experts at is renting cheap flop house apts in bad areas, seeing fellow members get evicted by despicable local NCs who skip out on paying rent and moving from town to town like vagabounds for Larouche. Ask them about the Ibykus estate of Lyn's that Steve and Connie worked 24/7 for Lyn to live like a multi millionaire as they got their 5 bucks a day.

xlcr4life@hotmail.com

06-12-2008, 12:41 PM

eaglebeak

Fear and Trembling Another instance of Lyn's inveterate self-sabotage, organizational sabotage, and fear of people, is offered by the following episode, also from 1969, also from Philadelphia--or at least the Philly area:
Labor Committee members at and around Swarthmore spent weeks and weeks organizing an event for Lyn to address at Swarthmore (for you LYMers not in the know, Swarthmore was thefons et origo of much of the early "SDS Labor Committee" and immediately post-SDS Labor Committee--there are still a few old Swarthmoreans dragging around now, like Dennis Small and Dennis and Lynne Speed--)
ANYhow, LCers spent weeks and weeks organizing for an event at which Lyn was to speak. Ultimately, the hall was filled with hundreds of people (good luck getting that now!)--and what should happen, but--? The Great Man didn't show up!
He sent Leif Johnson in his stead!
He claimed he had a prior meeting in New York. Which was very odd, since he had never mentioned it during the process of the building of the meeting.
The word, my friends, is chickensh-t, a profound moral cowardice which emanates from Lyn and sweeps over his inner (and "concentric") circles.
There's nothing wrong with being afraid. What's contemptible is to be afraid, deny it, and then attack others for being afraid when they don't toe your fear-induced line.

06-12-2008, 04:06 PM

c256

Does anyone remember the "official" reason why LHL didn't show up for the founding conference of the European Labor Committees in 1973, either?

06-12-2008, 07:09 PM

poe

Chess Did anyone else notice the news yesterday that Lyn's buddy James Hillary Carville is calling for Obama to make Al Gore his Vice Presidential Candidate? I wonder how the LYMies are going to spin that one.

06-12-2008, 09:13 PM

xlcr4life

2 Attachment(s)

Quote:
Originally Posted by poe

Did anyone else notice the news yesterday that Lyn's buddy James Hillary Carville is calling for Obama to make Al Gore his Vice Presidential Candidate? I wonder how the LYMies are going to spin that one.


James Carville will be spun out to the pastures of Loudoun County along with all the rest. For Lyn, this is great news since he can use this to "prove" to the LYM and LYMettes that the New Dark Ages will happen as Lyn forecast. With Obama being run by the British and Gore being run by the British, 3 billion dark skinned people will be killed by the two of them instead of just 2 billion by Gore.
If you go to the GOP side I read an article yesterday on Bloomberg being considered for a McCain VP slot.
For Lyn, he can do a rerun of 1980 in claiming to be a Democrat, beg some GOP operatives to do some dirty work for McCain's election, smear Obama like we did against all Democratic presidential candidates and keep the LYM and LYMettes running on a few LaroucheBucks per day.
No matter what happens, the only solution will be to raise more money, send it to Leesburg to stop the New Dark Ages and go without stipends or keep the slavery going .
LYM and LYMettes, that is the secret known only to the inner elites.
I started to think about Lyn's non showing at the Penn and Euro LC events and can add that in many of the US election races Lyn spent most of his time in Europe. People woiuld ask about how can you get votes if you do not appear at the events being set up. The answer was a cheap parlor trick whereby Lyn would say that he was going to win the election by getting the "Elites" in Europe to make it happen. Where Lyn does show up like on the Mort Downey show or in front of a jury or judge usually ends as a bad joke or a conviction or both.
Can someone with some photoshop talent take that LaroucheBuck and add:
"In Larouche we trust"
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

06-13-2008, 12:40 AM

borisbad

The only time I can remember him attending events that weren't crammed with supporters was in NH in 1980. Of course there was the famous debate where he had himself photographed talking with Ron Reagan, something to do with both being pro-NRA (timeless opportunism). However, I wasn't there so I have no idea whether he actually spoke in the debate or answered any questions from the audience or from reporters. Other events held in NH at that time were usually populated by senior citizens who came for free food handouts just like all the other candidates were providing. One event that had a sizeable number of French Canadiens was the one that had a couple of people from France whose names escape me but have been discussed before. The meeting opened with the Marseillaise. But as I recall, I don't even know whether LaRouche addressed that crowd or other members.

06-13-2008, 04:21 PM

c256

Quote:
Originally Posted by borismaglev

Which month exactly was it held and where?

The founding conference of the European Labor Committe has held over the July 4th weekend, 1973, I think in Dortmund, but I'm not 100% certain.

06-15-2008, 04:54 AM

eaglebeak

Lost in Space How To Shape History
Updated version as of 06/11/08 9:58pm Eastern

How To Shape History

by Lyndon H. LaRouche, Jr.
June 9, 2008
Hillary might still become President! -
—————————————————————————-
Since Friday, June 6, I have been occupied in, as it is often said, "picking people up off the floor." This on both sides of the Atlantic. Whereas, people, including relatively many among my own associates, were reacting to the leading vote-swindle of Democratic Presidential candidate Hillary Clinton's forced retirement from her candidacy, I have been warning folk that their view was mistaken. What actually happened in the U.S.A. election-campaigning during the close of last week, was not the end, but the beginning of what will prove to have been the real contest yet to be fought. The error which many people, from various camps, made, was a result of their failure to understand the way in which real history works. So, my very short piece entitled, "For the Moment, Now There Are Two Candidates,"[1] was written in anticipation of the need that I act, personally, to head off what I feared would be the expected pathetic, widespread, alternating rage and depression among some leading figures, as much as some ordinary folk....
Seriously, folks, this IS on the LPAC website (home page), along with a rather dreadful picture of Lyn, who has now entered that stage of senescence in which the individual begins to look like an infant again.
Hillary might still become President?
Lyn is picking people up off the floor??
On both sides of the Atlantic???
A Herculean effort, indeed.
Needless to say, there's more (sort of) to this piece, but I thought the first paragraph was sufficient to give the flavor of the inside of LaRouche's head these days. A scary place--empty, desolate, chaotic, and ... funny, too. (Funny ha ha, that is.)

06-15-2008, 07:17 PM

xlcr4life

Quote:
Originally Posted by eaglebeak

[i]How To Shape History
Updated version as of 06/11/08 9:58pm Eastern

[Seriously, folks, this IS on the LPAC website (home page), along with a rather dreadful picture of Lyn, who has now entered that stage of senescence in which the individual begins to look like an infant again.
Hillary might still become President?
Lyn is picking people up off the floor??
On both sides of the Atlantic???
A Herculean effort, indeed.
Needless to say, there's more (sort of) to this piece, but I thought the first paragraph was sufficient to give the flavor of the inside of LaRouche's head these days. A scary place--empty, desolate, chaotic, and ... funny, too. (Funny ha ha, that is.)


What is soooooo creepy on that LPac home page is seeing Lyn on the top and Jeff Steinberg on the bottom. Is that is not something out of a cheap horror movie about zombies trying taking over the world led by a madman?
Not only is the picture of both scary and funny, but Lyn has brought back the Queen of England for the LYM and LYMettes to put on the card table shrines.
http://larouchepac.com/news/2008/06/...n-england.html

I am a bit behind in LYM and LYMette sightings and hope to get back on track next week. After all, Lyn has commanded over 250 million dollars and printed tens of millions of pieces of literature and surely has to be taken seriously as the saviour of the universe by someone besides the happy residents of Laroucheville, no?
We have some blogs about cute LYMettes purring on college campuses as bait for the cult. Reports about how Lyn has recreated himself in his own image. Not only that, but there is a revolt in the Cyronics (freezing humans) community over someone who loves Lyn so much I am surprized that he does not offer to freeze Lyn for humanity.

Shades of 1980, Lyn must have been told that some in the McCain camp plan to portray Obama as Jimmy Carter's 2nd term this election. It stands to reason that the Larouche cult, delusional about everything else also hallucinate that they are Democrats and not a cult which also does dirty tricks for the GOP.
In this blog we find that some eyes are on the cult in anticipation of the dirty tricks a frenzied cult can be pushed to.

http://www.opednews.com/maxwrite/diarypage.php?did=7730
"This has been percolating for quite some time with some of the seamier sites on the internet and I strongly suspect the involvement of extreme leftwing crank Lyndon LaRouche whose strong support of a Clinton restoration as well as his loathing of Obama is evident. "

Based on how the cult was whipped up into a salivating frenzy over Al Gore and bragged about picking up ID cards to get to within an armslength of him, Obama's team should be concerned about cults.
In LA people are wondering if the local LYM and LYMette office/soup kitchen is busy working overtime to save Ed McMahon from losing his mansion to foreclosure.
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

06-15-2008, 09:31 PM

boomer70

and from deep space:

Quote:

London's fascist agents ... know that the voice of FDR in today's Democratic Party is that of Lyndon LaRouche, and, while they know that LaRouche is not running for President, they fear his impact on the next Presidency, as much as they feared FDR's election in November 1932.

http://larouchepac.com/news/2008/03/29/lessons-denver-fdrs-1932-victory-over-londons-wall-street-fa.html

06-16-2008, 02:07 AM

candor

Bait and Switch Most of the LYMers and LYMettes were recruited around stopping the Iraq war. In the past, LaRouche has boosted Kucinich's impeachment efforts against Bush-Cheney as here:
http://www.larouchepac.com/pages/breaking_news/2007/04/24/kucinich_impeachment.shtml
But, unless I am mistaken, no reference is made on any LaRouche site now to Kucinich's similar move this week. Does this mean that LaRouche is gearing up to harm Obama in every way that he can, even if that means laying off of Bush-Cheney so as to do as little damage to McCain as possible?
Obama, by the way, is pro-science and pro-technology. LaRouche doesn't even know how a toaster operates - unless he has a drink in hand.

06-16-2008, 06:17 PM

borisbad

I read the Jeff Steinberg LPAC article on FDR and his fight against the Morgan interests. While much of it seemed to be true, and based upon actual historical fact, i.e. the McCormick Hearings about the attempted coup against FDR in the early days of the New Deal, I was struck by the fact that Steinberg made no differentiation between FDR in his early days and his role in mobilizing for WWIi. As people may recall, I previously noted that in the LaR book The Case Against Walter Lippman, Lyn quite vocally denounces FDR's New Deal as a Fascist program modelled upon what was going on in Europe under Mussolini and Hitler. Then some tried to "explain" that Lyn had denounced the "early" FDR but realized that he was a hero upon the outbreak of War. Clearly in this article by Steinberg that Boomer links to, Steinberg sees FDR as an anti-fascist leader from the get go. Ironically also, he denounces the Nazis as promoting slave labor in the piece but never mentions the Nazis outright genocidal intentions behind the slave labor camps.

06-17-2008, 08:22 AM

‘‘hecker'''

Quote:
Originally Posted by borismaglev

Thanks very much, c265. Do you remember any background to the formation of the European Labor Committee? Who organized it, who attended, what role (if any) Mr. LaRouche had in the founding? Was Helga's role in the founding greater than LaRouche's?

The conference was held in Duesseldorf. It was the first international conference in Europe without Lyn being present as far as I recall. The formation of the org in Europe in the beginning occurred without Lyn's or Helga's direct involvement. Only in the course of the Muenchrath sessions did Lyn select her as his favorite cadre. There were not too many people who liked Helga, but once she had conquered Lyn's balls, she was sacrosanct and got away with everything, no matter how stupid and childish it was.

06-17-2008, 04:23 PM

xlcr4life

Quote:
Originally Posted by hecker

The conference was held in Duesseldorf. It was the first international conference in Europe without Lyn being present as far as I recall. The formation of the org in Europe in the beginning occurred without Lyn's or Helga's direct involvement. Only in the course of the Muenchrath sessions did Lyn select her as his favorite cadre. There were not too many people who liked Helga, but once she had conquered Lyn's balls, she was sacrosanct and got away with everything, no matter how stupid and childish it was.


I came on board after this conference and by the time I joined, the CW brainwashing caper, Cuban Frogman from Puerto Rico and everything else was quickly forgotten. Being a bit naive, I should have supected that something was afoul on just how fast things get whipped up and then erased by Lyn .
This 1973 era is extremely important in seeing just how Lyn consolidated a cult via classic cult techniques with his own spin. There are some mysterious writings flowing around about this era leading to 1980 which show how Lyn replaced the early SDS recruits who left when they figured out what a cultic meglomanic he was with a new set of college yutes who underwent "January 1974" who stuck around till most of them figured it out as well. That generation was replaced with new recruits with a cleaner cut LC until they figured it out and left while most of the long term leadership finally left in the 1990s .
The present day LYM and LYMettes will have a ball reading about this era and seeing that everything new is not new and just the same cheap parlor tricks done over and over. In one section I read Lyn whipped up the LC over the KGB spending millions of Rubles to stop him. The next day, the KGB vanished and it was a CIA/British operation . No one in the LC that I know of asked simple questions about any of this and Lyn was now with what he always wants and needs, a small sect of sycophants to restart the delusion express for a few more years. Soon after this we are promting "Gold backed Rubles" as our campaign for the White House. Later, we wish to destroy the USSR with Lyn's fictitious head being asked by Gorbachev on a Silver Platter. Now the cult finds Oligarchs everywhere except Russia and imagines a shiny Maglev travelling under the Bering sea.
Lyn also did a simple trick of deflecting any suspicion of his mental slaughter of CW because Carol dumped him by issuing another statement to the LC which now has this plot with CW being under control to kill Lyn, Carol, Janice Larouche and a then 17 year old son of Lyn. In this smart move, Lyn can include others to be part of the plot to stop him from saving the globe by harming his immediate loved ones. My God this sounds like a DC comic book story line folks.
This bizarro world plot had a 4 year build up according to Lyn and was kicked off by an earlier brainwashing plot of ELC member Konstantin George, a sort of dry run in the brainwashing spin cycle of Lyn's mind.
Here is an exerpt of some great research which runs quite a few pages and is relevent for current factnet discussions of Euro 1973. I sure as heck hope that there is more on the way to be eternally enshrined somewhere for the LYM and LYMettes to read and enjoy.
CONCLUSION
Looking back at the George affair, much still remains a mystery. However the
George affair (structurally speaking) served as an early a test run of sorts for
the Chris White debacle. The hysteria surrounding the George story also played a
key role in psychologically reshaping the European Labor Committee. After
LaRouche's arrival in Germany in the wake of the disastrous Operation Mop Up,
many Europeans were upset with the turn the group had taken. A former German
NCLC members named Herbert Knoblauch (interviewed for the 1987 book Das
Geheimnis der EAP: Idee, Geschichte, Programm, Praxis, Hintergrund) recalled
that LaRouche encountered great difficulty with the Dortmund-headquartered ELC
in August and September of 1973.
LaRouche returned to Europe sometime in September 1973, ostensibly to attend the Lelio Basso-sponsored conference on Rosa Luxemburg in Northern Italy.
However he refused to go, claiming that the East Germans and KGB were planning
to assassinate him at the gathering. Instead he organized a three and a half day
encounter session with leading European members in Dortmund. The session
culminated in the crucial decision of Helga Zepp who had been attacked the
most by LaRouche and who had resisted the most announcing her complete
allegiance to him.
The Konstantine George affair also had a critical structural effect in the
American NCLC as well. After the Konstantin George affair broke, a new group was
hand picked by LaRouche in the U.S. and told that its duty was to assemble all
the information it could on brainwashing supposedly to unravel the endless
ramifications of the "George affair." This would-be clique of Cheka wannabes led
by Greg Rose clearly fueled the Konstantin George fantasy and by so doing also
helped establish the initial paradigms for the Chris White brainwashing hoax that would soon follow.

Perhaps fittingly, then, after first declaring that Konstantin George had been
brainwashed by Stasi (August 1973), and then that George had really been
brainwashed by the KGB/VEDO in alliance with Stasi and Bulgarian intelligence
(Fall 1973) and then the CIA (January 1974) LaRouche would finally come full
circle back to the hapless East Germans. In his 23 January 1981 internal
document (Security: KGB Footprints) attacking Epanastasi and later NCLC leader
Costas Axios, LaRouche writes: "The first known indication of a KGB attack on
the ICLC dates from February 1973, the first known active phase in the targeting
of Konstantin George which led to his attempted brainwashing by East German
officials."

There is more on the way LYM and LYMettes. If you decide to burn through the prime years fo your life for a madman, then the least we can do is to give you the whole story, since you will not figure it out till it is too late.
Take note that since Lyn has done this a few times and you are the last of the college drop outs and the least knowledgable about him, a few of you just may be part of another brainwashing scam if things (income) do not pick up.
Has anyone else notice that the great picture of Lyn from a few days ago is gone from the LPac pages?
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

06-17-2008, 04:46 PM

scrimscraw

That 70's Show

Quote:
Originally Posted by xlcr4life

This 1973 era is extremely important in seeing just how Lyn consolidated a cult via classic cult techniques with his own spin. There are some mysterious writings flowing around about this era leading to 1980 which show how Lyn replaced the early SDS recruits who left when they figured out what a cultic meglomanic he was with a new set of college yutes who underwent "January 1974" who stuck around till most of them figured it out as well.

Are you referring to the study from which these chapters have been posted at LaRouchePlanet.info? If so, any chance that more will be forthcoming?

06-17-2008, 06:08 PM

xlcr4life

1 Attachment(s)

Quote:
Originally Posted by scrimscraw

Are you referring to the study from which these chapters http://laroucheplanet.info/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=Library.UnityNow have been posted at LaRouchePlanet.info? If so, any chance that more will be forthcoming?

Absolutely!!!! The world anxiuosly awaits and hangs on every thread about Lyn at Laroucheplanet.info due to popular demand from deadenders in Leesburg and the LYM/LYMettes in Larouchetown . The demand is that a sort of virtual mausoleum be established for Lyn and their wish will be granted. Lyn will be sort of "frozen" in the Ethereal world for many , many years.
Now the physical world is heating up over freezing Lyn's corpse. Many people expect ,when the time comes, for Lyn's corpse to be in a rocking chair in Tony P's house ala "Psycho". Or, Lyn will be propped up like Jeremy Bentham in a LaroucheTown basement.
Speaking of freezing. Who knew that there was a virtual war in the Cyronics communitiy over the worship of Lyn by a few Cyronic society members??
http://richardbpotvin.blogspot.com/2008/06/rick-potvin-now-tries-to-link.html
Saturday, June 14, 2008
Rick Potvin Now Tries to Link Astrojesus to LaRouche and Cryonics
For at least several years now, Rick Potvin (Bon Homme, Philossifur), who claims to be a Christian, has occasionally tried to promote his homemade version of it, "Astrojesus". Now, in a blog post today, he tries to link it to LaRouche, and goes on to defame cryonics in the process.
In that post he also brags on LaRouche, claiming how great he and his teachings are. Are you gullible enough to think that a convicted felon and mindwashing cult leader has reliable political information? Potvin hopes you will be. See the following link on the LaRouche Youth Movement:
http://richardbpotvin.blogspot.com/2008/01/rick-potvins-friends-larouche-youth.html
Take a look at LaRouche the jailbird:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._LaRouche
None of this, of course, has anything to do with cryonics! If you are new to the idea of cryonics, please be assured that if you pursue that interest, you will find almost none of the stuff Potvin advocates, connected with it. All you have to do is ignore Rick Potvin, and most cryonicists would apologize for your having to do that.
More Information on Rick Potvin:
http://cryonicsdefamedbyrickpotvin.blogspot.com/2008/01/rick-potvin-aka-phil-incorrectly.html
Posted by Cryonics Anti-Defamation Committee at 10:44 AM
Labels: cryonics, rick potvin

Tuesday, June 17, 2008
More Cryonics Defamation by Rick Potvin
One day it's under Bon Homme, today it's under Philossifur - either way Potvin continues to malign cryonics by trying to associate it with crackpot politics. His assertion today that "Cryonics MUST adopt Larouche's measures" is totally false. There is no evidence that this particular political philosophy is any better than any other, and certainly none that it is essential to cryonics.
Monday, June 16, 2008
Rick Potvin Admits He Is In "The Twilight Zone" As To Cryonics
This is too much. Today, in one of his landfill of blogs, Rick Potvin says "as Rod Serling would say-- I've taken one step beyond reality... into the Twilight Zone." That was his conclusion to a long rant that starts out with LaRouche political nonsense and an assertion that "there must be a universal physical principle".
He is, for once, correct, regarding the Twilight Zone statement. Potvin's approach to most things seems not to be based in the reality that most of the rest of us share and function within. In that rant he also takes the following megalomaniacal view of himself: "I am now the most other oriented and inter-generational person in cryonics. My position is unassaiilable and assured in history and future history."
As to universal principles, we all have our ideas about those. None of them have anything to do with cryonics. Cryonics will either work, or it won't, and if it doesn't, those of us who have been cryopreserved will never know the difference.
To those of you new to the idea of cryonics, and who take a normal view of the world in which we live, we extend our apologies that you may have encountered an alleged cryonicist from the Twilight Zone, and suggest that you look at some of the links on the right side of this blog page. They provide a saner and more informative presentation of cryonics.
More Information on Rick Potvin:
http://cryonicsdefamedbyrickpotvin.blogspot.com/2008/01/rick-potvin-aka-phil-incorrectly.html
Posted by Cryonics Anti-Defamation Committee at 12:22 PM
Labels: cryonics, rick potvin

Cryonics has nothing to do with politics. People interested in cryonics have many different political outlooks, some none at all. But none, except Potvin, try to package cryonics with a particular political philosophy, in a cultish manner, and try to get the public to think it is the only way to go.
No one is fooled by this, as evidenced by the fact that Potvin has yet to find one other person to follow him in his cultish mishmash of politics and religion. We are here to offer any persons new to cryonics, links to valid information on cryonics, as can be found in the sidebar to the right.
More Information on Rick Potvin:
http://cryonicsdefamedbyrickpotvin.blogspot.com/2008/01/rick-potvin-aka-phil-incorrectly.html
Posted by Cryonics Anti-Defamation Committee at 11:34 AM
Labels: cryonics, rick potvin
Thursday, June 12, 2008
Rick Potvin (Philossifur, Bon Homme) Garbles Up History and Cryonics
In recent blog posts, Rick Potvin, who mindlessly wanders between the pseudonyms Bon Homme and Philossifur, tries to associate the history of the world, with cryonics. History, other than cryonics history, has nothing to do with cryonics. This is merely yet another ploy by Potvin to promote LaRouche to cryonicists and to try to fool the public into thinking you have to adopt LaRouche's cultish politics and philosophy to participate in cryonics.
The short statement is: You don't! Cryonics has nothing to do with any particular political philosophy, much less any of the other whacked ideas Potvin promotes on some of his sites.
If you are new to the idea of cryonics and want solid information on it, we invite you to read the links in the sidebar to the right of this post. Potvin's material presents both an incomplete and a distorted view of cryonics, and in doing so he defames the subject itself.
More Information on Rick Potvin:
http://cryonicsdefamedbyrickpotvin.blogspot.com/2008/01/rick-potvin-aka-phil-incorrectly.html
Posted by Cryonics Anti-Defamation Committee at 10:38 AM
Labels: cryonics, rick potvin

Friday, June 6, 2008
Rick Potvin, now "Bon Homme", Confuses Cryonics with Politics
In one of his AKA "Bon Homme" blogs, Potvin today proclaims that Hillary Clinton is "suspending" her presidential campaign. In his twisted mind, he goes on to conclude that this makes Hillary a cryonicist, because she thinks in terms of suspensions.
Wednesday, June 4, 2008
A Question for Rick Potvin "Philossifur", Cryonics Defamer
You recently posted that LaRouche has something to tell cryonicists about how to vote in the next presidential election.
Why don't you also do what LaRouche recently told you, and stop posting to blogs? You said LaRouche said they were bad for your head.
You don't even give LaRouche the common courtesy of spelling his name correctly. Why should we listen to you, if you have no respect for him?
LaRouche doesn't even advocate cryonics. Show us where he does, if that is not true.
Otherwise, stop trying to fill our head with LaRouche nonsense.
For any newcomers to the idea of cryonics, I sincerely apologize for your having to read stuff like this. Potvin, supposedly a cryonicist, should be ashamed of himself for dragging cryonics through the sewer, as he does in most of his posts. His mental illness prevents him from contributing positively to society and to cryonics.
Real information about cryonics can be found in the links in the sidebar to the right.
For more information on Rick Potvin's insanity:
http://cryonicsdefamedbyrickpotvin.blogspot.com/2008/01/rick-potvin-aka-phil-incorrectly.html
Posted by Cryonics Anti-Defamation Committee at 10:41 PM
Labels: cryonics, rick potvin

This is not only jumping to conclusions - I think I heard him break the sound barrier jetting to them. To make matters even worse, he is reporting old news. Clinton has now moved from suspending her campaign, to ending it on Saturday with an endorsement of Obama.
None of this, of course, has anything to do with cryonics, as Potvin tries to make it be. This is also one of the blogs where other fanatical ideas are promulgated, such as UFOs in the Bible and Jesus being an astronaut. Potvin defames cryonics by putting it in the same blog with that baloney and with his distorted political musings. The vast majority of cryonicists are folks much closer to mainstream society.
If you are new to the idea of cryonics and found Potvin's page by mistake, just have a chuckle at it, but don't take him seriously on anything. The links in the sidebar to the right of this message contain dependable information on cryonics, and we encourage you to look at them.
More on Rick Potvin, AKA Bon Homme and Philossifur:
http://cryonicsdefamedbyrickpotvin.blogspot.com/2008/01/rick-potvin-aka-phil-incorrectly.html
Posted by Cryonics Anti-Defamation Committee at 11:34 AM
Labels: cryonics, rick potvin

Wow. This should be prety easy for the last few deadenders/boomer who camped in front of courthouses in the 1980s yelling
"Free Larouche, Free Larouche, Free Larouche"
to join hands with their replacements, the LYM and LYMettes to yell:
"Freeze larouche, Freeze Larouche, Freeze Larouche!"

xlcr4life@hotmail.com

06-17-2008, 07:13 PM

xlcr4life

1 Attachment(s) For those who met him, a few minutes of silence here for someone who passed away much too early in life .

http://revjg.com/

Obituary

John Edward Grauerholz, Jr., age 66, of Leesburg, VA, died May 27, 2008 at Loudoun Hospital Center. Born in Queens, New York, he was the son of the late John Sr. and Felice Grauerholz. Dr. Grauerholz served his country in the United States Army.

John had a diverse and interesting career in the healthcare profession, beginning with a Diploma and RN from Pilgrim State Hospital in West Brentwood, NY. From 1965-67, he served as a nurse at the rank of 1LT in the US Army Nurse Corps. He was stationed at the 85th Evacuation Hospital in Qui Nhon, Vietnam, from 1965-66. He earned his AB and MD degrees from Duke University in 1969 and 1973 respectively. Also at Duke, John did his Residency in Pathology and completed his Fellowship in Forensic Pathology, serving as the Assistant Chief Medical Examiner in Chapel Hill, North Carolina. He was a Diplomate of the American Board of Pathology, certified in Pathologic Anatomy and Forensic Pathology. He was employed in the offices of Chief Medical Examiner in the states of North Carolina, Rhode Island, New York and New Jersey and was Designated Forensic Pathologist in New Jersey. He also taught Pathology at Brown University in the late 1970's. Throughout his career he was a member of many professional societies including theAmerican Academy of Forensic Sciences, The National Academy of Medical Examiners, the College of American Pathologists, the International Academy of Pathology, the New York Academy of Sciences, the American Society of Tropical Medicine and Hygiene, and the American Academy of Anti-Aging Medicine.

John had an abiding love for and deep commitment to the medical profession. He shared his extensive knowledge by writing numerous professional articles and presentating papers at conferences both nationally and internationally. He shared his knowledge locally through several lecture series and seminars at the Rust Library and in the Loudoun County Library System.

He is survived by his wife Elizabeth Kellogg of Leesburg, VA; daughter Maria Grauerholz Wise of Virginia Beach, VA; and her husband Jonathan Wise and three grandchildren Alexander Timothy Grauerholz Wise, Michael Ian Grauerholz Wise, and Zoe Maria Grauerholz Wise, and a sister, Elizabeth Wolff, of Islip, NY

A celebration of John's life was held on Sunday, June 1, 2008 at 2:00 p.m. at the North Fork Baptist Church Parish Hall, Purcellville, VA.

Donations in John's memory may be made to the Loudoun County Public Library, (LCPL) c/o library admininistrator, 908A Trailview Blvd SE, Leesburg, VA, 20175 or to the Loudoun Symphony, PO Box 4478, Leesburg, VA, 20177.

Please visit the website at www.hallfh.com to express online condolences to the family.

06-17-2008, 08:49 PM

poe

Kucinich

Quote:
Originally Posted by candor

Most of the LYMers and LYMettes were recruited around stopping the Iraq war. In the past, LaRouche has boosted Kucinich's impeachment efforts against Bush-Cheney as here:
http://www.larouchepac.com/pages/breaking_news/2007/04/24/kucinich_impeachment.shtml
But, unless I am mistaken, no reference is made on any LaRouche site now to Kucinich's similar move this week. Does this mean that LaRouche is gearing up to harm Obama in every way that he can, even if that means laying off of Bush-Cheney so as to do as little damage to McCain as possible?
Obama, by the way, is pro-science and pro-technology. LaRouche doesn't even know how a toaster operates - unless he has a drink in hand.


I think that the LaRouche movement actually are the ones who convinced Kucinich to go after Cheney first, intead of Bush. Lyn has never seemed as excited about impeaching Bush as he was about Cheney. Also, for some reason, LaRouche has developed an extreme hatred of 3rd Parties, and I have a feeling that Kucinich is going to be supporting Cynthia McKinney, so that could be why Lyn is ignoring him.

06-17-2008, 09:35 PM

realme

LaRouchies at VA Dem Convention A fellow named Jerry Berg ran for a seat at the Democratic National Committee at last weekend's Virginia State Democratic Convention. (He lost.) His platform called for ousting Howard Dean, who is an instrument of George Soros et al. Berg called for making the Democratic Party once again the party of FDR. Sound familiar? Looks like the org, stinks like the org, must be the org, eh? I never knew Jerry Berg, but I remember his brother, a decent guy, who quit many years ago.

06-17-2008, 11:06 PM

poe

Obama Tech

Quote:
Originally Posted by candor


Obama, by the way, is pro-science and pro-technology.

That is one of the many reasons I can not understand why they supported (are supporting?) Hillary over Obama. They make an excellent argument for how the fate of the developing nations depends upon the peaceful use of nuclear power. Obama has said that nuclear energy has to be part of the solution to the global climate and energy crisis. True, this is not the same as the organization's position, that nuclear energy is the solution to the problem. Obama merely says that it has to be part of the mix. But even this is too much for Hillary, who has denounced Barack as " in the pocket of the Nuclear Industry". She is against nuclear energy even in the United States. If she had gotten back in, the 3rd World would never have been allowed to build nuclear energy plants. Under Obama, maybe they will.

06-18-2008, 12:53 AM

candor

Thank you, poe, for the nuanced understanding. Perhaps Lyn's rage against Cheney as opposed to Bush was fueled by the figure of Lynne Cheney, since there appears to now be enough evidence on this board to at least make a case that the arc of Lyn's career has been driven primarily by his passionate misogyny.

06-18-2008, 06:31 PM

xlcr4life

2 Attachment(s) LYMettes, history repeats it self this is very eerie If one has read all of the posts here on factnet.org from the beginning to the present, one will find some common themes. One theme I like to get across is how whatever the LYM and LYMettes believe is unique to them is but a cruel joke by Lyn and the remaining deadeners . Lyn has been doing the same delusional scams over and over, in many cases using the same techniques, words, "predictions" , excuses and of course, results for over 4 decades. Just read up on LC history and you will find several versions of the LC, all nice young college aged and somewhat naive who join and replace the previous version which will be forgotten.
Lyn will quickly start on how just special you are and how the human race now depends on you to avoid whatever apocalypytic fantasy works for the present moment. The cast of enemies will change to fit the current era . Al Gore would be proud of just how much recycling Lyn does of his own material
Oh, Lyn will explain in a few memos about how he was screwed by the previous generation of yutes who of course are not anywhere near as special as you are today.
What I have below is something so amazing that I had to review the photos a few times to make sure my eyes were not decieving me.
But first, let us look at this blog entry of new recruitment techniques of a LYMette from:
http://imgrowingabeard.blogspot.com/2008/05/lunchtime-with-larouche.html
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Thursday, May 29, 2008
Lunchtime with LaRouche
Today walking down the street a girl got in my face and told me that I needed to support some guy named Lyndon LaRouche in order to combat the worldwide food crisis. She shoved a magazine into my chest and I stopped walking, didn't take it, but stared down at it, as if to inspect the cover of the magazine for whatever reason. As if my questions could possibly be answered by just reading the cover.
Anyway, after I stopped for like ten seconds, I decided I didn't want to deal with it, so I kept walking. Apparently the girl wasn't used to people taking that long to decide if they wanted to be accosted by a solicitor, so she shouted, "You wanna talk about it?"
I turned around. I shrugged. "Food crisis? I'm just not sure what you mean."
And then she started talking. I had absolutely nowhere to go, nowhere to be, so I indulged her. This girl was smart as a whip. I asked questions and challenged her and gave my own opinions, and she had an answer for everything. She said she was 20 years old. She was pretty, in a Jer Isseks sort of way. If you don't know what that means then you obviously aren't Joe Ward.
We talked for a half-hour in downtown Boston under the hot midday sun. She argued and argued and I kept telling her that I agreed, to an extent, but that I also had a little more faith in humanity than she did. She was saying things like "The British oligarchy wants to see genocide," and "London controls the entire world economy" and "Facebook is a manifestation of the end of civilized society as we know it." I would respond with my normal light-hearted banter, mostly trying to say that maybe all her crazy conspiracy theories were right--(how are we to know, really?)--but that in the long run we're all dead and we're all just people, ignorant or not, and I just want to be a good person. Well I didn't say something that ridiculous, but I guess that's just my life philosophy and perhaps that was the impression I gave off.
Anyway, she insisted on me giving her my phone number so she could call me and tell me about new developments in the LaRouche campaign, meeting times and places, and to further debate these issues. I insisted on not giving her my phone number. I swore I would read the magazine, and if I was hooked, I'd give her a call. She had no choice but to accept my compromise.
She was really pretty, but she was out of my league, I think. I pictured us sitting together on a park bench. I would want to talk about my favorite book. She would want to talk about why my favorite book was a tool to swindle all of mankind into assisting the British rule in a violent politico-economic takeover of the world. It just wasn't going to work.
Posted by Jerald Isseks at 6:28 PM
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
What got me thinking from this entry was how so many of us were pretty young when we joined the LC and full of energy and vigor to just go slay the Larouche dragons while humanity bestows flowers and writes operas about this final world historical battle to stop a New Dark Ages. It was not supposed to end with us being laughingstocks of the electorate, dirty tricksters for the GOP, an endless cult revolving door, broken bodies and bank accounts, fraud convictions and handing over more than 13 million dollars to several scam artists who played Lyn like a fiddle.
One of my favorite LYMette pictures is of the sweet young red headed girl with the "Larouche Says" sign taken last year I believe. That picture reminded me of someone in the LC and lo and behold, a photo was taken decades ago of another sweet young red headded girl who also just joined the LC and look at the sign that she has at her card table shrine.
This is a true dejavu moment when I recieved the photo LYM and LYMettes. The B/W photo is of a red headded (now grey) talented pianist named Margaret Greenspan. She is married to Elliot Greenspan and they both should be nearing 60 by now. The card table shrine appears to be in lover Manhattan and in the early 1980s. In the backround is a payphone on a subway entrance and I just can't help but read the card table shrine over and over.
My God, that picture is at least a quarter century old! and poor Margaret is still doing card table shrines according to some reports while hubby Elliot continues to take it from Dennis.
Yes LYMettes, your future is very predictable and boy does history repeat itself in more ways then one. Poor Margaret gave up a very promising career in piano and has been shuffling from poor house to poor house in an endless persuit to slay Lyn's delusionary dragons. Her brother Mike Billington was convicted and sent to prison for the financial crimes we committed a few very short years after this pisture was taken. Her former best friends are now retiring with pensions, paid for homes and sending their kids off to college or becoming first time grandmothers.
What did you give up for this delusion which will take away your prime learning, earning and yearning years?????

Remember, Margaret is in the B/W photo, her replacement LYMette clone is in the color photo. Both have red hair wear glasses and share the same signs. It is a sort of culty "Patty Duke" show in the Bizarro world .
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

06-18-2008, 09:06 PM

howie

Yes LYMettes, your future is very predictable and boy does history repeat itself in more ways then one.
"Future is very predictable" is your repeated refrain, but some fracturing will necessarily occur after Lyndon passes away. Are they still doing the card-table shrine based off pronouncements from the past?

06-19-2008, 07:27 PM

xlcr4life

2 current members perish after running out of gas on Interstate late at night

http://www.watz.com/wire/localnews/02341_Wednesday-Afternoon-State-News-Summary_155159.php

Calhoun Co-Highway Fatals-Update)
Police Say A Truck Driver Involved In An Accident That Left Two Illinois Men Dead In Calhoun County May Face Charges.
48-Year Old John Morris And 66-Year Old Gary Genazzio, Both Of Chicago, Reportedly Ran Out Of Gas On I-94 West Of Albion Late Monday Night.
Police Say The Two Were Hit By A Passing Dump Truck As They Were Putting Gas In Their Tank On The Shoulder Of The Road.
Both Were Pronounced Dead At The Scene.
Charges Are Pending Against The Dump Truck Driver, A 57-Year Old Jackson Man. His Name Was Not Released.
The Accident Is Still Under Investigation.
(Wbck, Battle Creek)

http://wbck.blogspot.com/2008/06/accident-update.html

Wednesday, June 18, 2008
Accident Update
Police say a truck driver involved in an accident that left two men dead in Calhoun County may face charges. Two men from Chicago, 48-year old John Morris and 66-year old Gary Genazzio reportedly ran out of gas on I-94 west of Albion late Monday night. Police say the two were hit by a passing dump truck as they were putting gas in their tank on the shoulder of the road. Both were pronounced dead at the scene. Charges are pending against the dump truck driver, a 57-year old Jackson man. His name was not released.
Posted by WBCK News at 7:55 AM
0 comments:
http://www.battlecreekenquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080618/NEWS01/806180319/1001/NEWS
Collision with dump truck kills 2 Chicago men
Two Chicago men were killed Monday night when they were hit by a dump truck on I-94 near 26-Mile Road in Sheridan Township.
Calhoun County Sheriff's Deputies said John D. Morris, 48, and Gary P. Genazzio, 66, died at the scene of the accident after they were hit by a dump truck while they were filling the gasoline tank of their car.
Deputies said the men were eastbound and had pulled off to the shoulder when they were struck about 10:30 p.m.
The dump truck was driven by a 57-year-old Jackson man. His name was not released and deputies said charges are pending.

More information should be forthcoming about this. I have sympathy for the victims but not a drop for this sick cult that send it's members out in Larouchemobiles each day. If you had any experience with the cult you would know that when the income gets tough, you have to conserve cash to bring back to the office. What were the circumstances that allowed someone to run out of gas on an interstate late at night? The F'ing cult raises several million for LPAC,
http://www.opensecrets.org/pacs/lookup2.php?strID=C00309567
can't members be given gas credit cards so no one ever, ever runs low on fuel late at night? How many hours and for how many straight days were these two deploying? How many more hours did they need to drive? Does anyone have a cell phone or AAA card to safely call for fuel? Did their car have a functioning fuel guage? I have seen a few LC cars where you had to guess what was in the tank. You also tried to leave just enough fuel in the car for the next squad if you were ordered to conserve cash for stipends when you returned to the office.
Gary Gennazio joined a long time ago in the 1970s. He had talent with painting and did a portrait of Indira Gandhi you can see below. So much talent and it ends by running out of gas late at night. 66 years old and in a flash, you are gone. Any one wish to bet if the 10 milion dollar a year cult has insurance death benefits for any surviving members. If they both lived, any bets on what the Larouche long term disability plan is?
Millions and millions going to support Lyn's lunacy and the car runs out of gas?
MIke Gelber dies late one night in a car wreck and Helga announces a fundraising memorial drive. I can personally assure everyone that in the years I was in the LC I witnesses so many horrendous abuses of people'e safety by broken down LaroucheMobiles, no car insurance, bald tires, bad breaks and have heard this for years from former membeers as well. You joke about this in the local office casue you are so busy saving the world from a New Dark Ages that getting new brakes depends on how much cash is available to send the car to the shop.
I hope more of the story is learned . Yes the driver of the dump truck killed them, but two members were placed on an interstate with no fuel late at night driving to who knows where.
Go check out how much LPAC raises as most of the money raised will be sent to Leesburg. How do allow your own people to work around the clock, for decades and decades for no money to be dependent on the whims of someone else and not have safety as your top concern so no one has to even think of driving a car low on fuel?
The sick part of this to me is that Gennazio and Morris spent decades of their lives rasing money for Lyn so he can be chauffered in armored cars, special Mercedes Benzes in Europe and never have to worry about putting a drop of petrol in the tank.
When you read about how lives are snuffed out by a dump truck and have experienced the cult first hand, you get both bitter and depressed. I know so many former members who have great lives who are shocked at what they had to endure in the LC and how it just repeats itself over and over.
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

06-19-2008, 08:02 PM

poe

Quote:
Originally Posted by borisbad

I read the Jeff Steinberg LPAC article on FDR and his fight against the Morgan interests. While much of it seemed to be true, and based upon actual historical fact, i.e. the McCormick Hearings about the attempted coup against FDR in the early days of the New Deal, I was struck by the fact that Steinberg made no differentiation between FDR in his early days and his role in mobilizing for WWIi. As people may recall, I previously noted that in the LaR book The Case Against Walter Lippman, Lyn quite vocally denounces FDR's New Deal as a Fascist program modelled upon what was going on in Europe under Mussolini and Hitler. Then some tried to "explain" that Lyn had denounced the "early" FDR but realized that he was a hero upon the outbreak of War.

I think I am the one who made the post about how Lyn condemned FDR's early programs but praised his WWII mobe policies. While I was in the organization, he definately did make this distinction. Depending on what campaign or issue he was stressing at the time, the LC may have put out propaganda that stressed one aspect of FDR over the other, but the "party line" was always that early FDR tried a lot of Mussolini style policies that solved nothing, but that when faced with the threat from Hitler, he finally adopted "American System" policies for the War Mobe and created America as an industrial super-power. While I was in ( up until 1997 ) this was Lyn's position. That position still makes sense to me. The Steinberg article you reference above does seem to say something different. I have not read it, nor , for the most part ( with a few exceptions ) have I read much at all of their stuff since I left. Much of the stuff they seem to be saying today makes no sense to me at all, and a lot of it is just downright embarassing. But their original switch from being "anti-FDR" to being "pro-FDR" is not as much of an about face as some posters here would imply. FDR's early policies were in fact a lot like the policies that Lyn condemns Bloomberg and Rohatyn for pushing today, but his later policies were something else entirely.

06-19-2008, 08:56 PM

eaglebeak

Sorrow for Gary's and John's Deaths I am so, so sorry to hear about the deaths of Gary Genazzio and John Morris.
I knew Gary from the time he joined in New York, in 1973 or 1974. For a number of years he worked at WorldComp when WorldComp was in Manhattan.
Gary was a lovely person, very kind and gentle. It's a tragedy for him to die on a lonely dark road in the middle of southern Michigan late at night--and all for a broken gas gauge, or an empty gas tank--
It's a tragedy too for John Morris, and I hope that people who knew him (as I did not) will write about him on this message board. I have received a phone call from a former member who knew him, who says he was very nice, very kind, enthusiastic--two wonderful people, in other words.
Another former member just wrote to say that Gary Genazzio was a kind man and an artist. He was walking in the lower Manhattan junkshop district one day and saw a life-sized marble bust of Schiller in a store window. He button-holed everyone at the office until he had collected $200 to buy it for Helga. There is no doubt that the only things you have in life are the ones that you give away. This former member, a devout Catholic, wrote that she hopes that Mary and Jesus and Mozart are with him in heaven at this moment.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I remember driving around Michigan in all weathers, in all kinds of cars, at all times of day or night--driving to Grand Rapids once from Detroit in a Ford Pinto (!) in a full blizzard late at night for meetings the next day (all cancelled, of course, because of the blizzard).
We traveled in blizzards, in tornadoes (Anderson, Indiana comes to mind), stopping to "organize" (panhandle?) to get money for gas and food. These were organizing trips, so called, written up in the Ops Bulletins as great triumphs, just as the LYM writes up their aimless wanderings today.
What happened with Gary and John? Did Bob Bowen not give them enough money? Were they late to some stupid meeting--Jackson? Ann Arbor?--as they headed back east toward Detroit, and therefore afraid to stop for gas? Was the gauge broken, as XLCR suggests?
A terrible, terrible story. Our hearts go out to their family and all their friends, inside and outside the organization.
And of course, we all feel sick at the thought that as Gary and John are laid to rest, LaRouche is cackling away with the youth, attacking the "old" Boomers who have worn themselves out in his service, plotting his next 15 years, apparently not noticing the shadows lengthening around him.

06-19-2008, 09:29 PM

boomer70

in addition to the role of Larouche in this kind of destructiveness, one should mention that of his mindless sycophants.

06-19-2008, 11:21 PM

xlcr4life

Quote:
Originally Posted by boomer70 \\

in addition to the role of Larouche in this kind of destructiveness, one should mention that of his mindless sycophants.

That is something we can address after people deal with the shock and grief of knowing someone who perished while still in the cult. You are right though, your senses are effected.
Here is another URL
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25204312/
Dump truck hits, kills two along I-94

WOOD-TV

updated 3:59 a.m. ET, Tues., June. 17, 2008
ALBION, Mich. (WOOD) -- Two men from Chicago who ran out of gas along I-94 died when a dump truck hit them as they filled their tank.
Witnesses said the men, 48 and 66, were filling their gas tank and had their hazard warnings on around 10:30 p.m. Monday. They were on the shoulder of the road west of Albion, near mile marker 119 in Calhoun County.
A dump truck driven by a Jackson resident struck both men. There were no skid marks from the dump truck and the men were pronounced dead at the scene.
The accident remains under investigation

http://www.topix.com/forum/source/wood/TCR2I9NMBHLMGSTLT
WOOD-TV Grand Rapids and Michigan
Dump truck hits, kills two along I-94
Two people are dead after they were hit by a dump truck along I-94. The accident happened at 10:30 p.m. Monday west of Albion, near mile marker 119 in Calhoun County.

http://www.woodtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=8510117

Dump truck hits, kills two along I-94
Posted: June 17, 2008 03:56 AM EDT
Updated: June 17, 2008 01:05 PM EDT


ALBION, Mich. (WOOD) -- Two men from Chicago who ran out of gas along I-94 died when a dump truck hit them as they filled their tank.
Witnesses said the men, 48 and 66, were filling their gas tank and had their hazard warnings on around 10:30 p.m. Monday. They were on the shoulder of the road west of Albion, near mile marker 119 in Calhoun County.
A dump truck driven by a Jackson resident struck both men. There were no skid marks from the dump truck and the men were pronounced dead at the scene.
The accident remains under investigation.

http://www.mlive.com/news/kzgazette/index.ssf?/base/news-1/1213714214223310.xml&coll=7
Two Chicago men killed on I-94
Tuesday, June 17, 2008
Gazette Staff Reports
ALBION -- Two Chicago men are dead after a dump truck struck them on Interstate 94 near Albion.
The two men, whose names had not been released, were struck while putting gas into a vehicle at about 10:30 p.m. Monday near mile marker 119, said Capt. Matt Saxton of the Calhoun County Sheriff's Office. Both men were pronounced dead at the scene.
The dump-truck driver, a 57-year-old Jackson resident, was traveling east when the men were struck. The truck driver was not injured.
The accident remains under investigation. Autopsies on the two men, ages 48 and 66, are scheduled for today.
Police ask anyone with information to call the Calhoun County Sheriff's Office at (269) 781-0963.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-ap-mi-interstatecrash,0,7151692.story
2 men killed by dump truck along I-94 near Albion
Associated Press
7:34 AM CDT, June 17, 2008
ALBION, Mich. - Authorities say a dump truck struck and killed two men from Illinois whose vehicle had run out of gas on Interstate 94 near Albion.
WOOD-TV and WWMT-TV in Grand Rapids report the crash happened late Monday in Calhoun County.
Authorities say the vehicle the men were riding in was parked on the shoulder, and they were trying to put fuel in the tank when they were hit.
The crash is under investigation.

I hope there is a thorough investigation into what happened. It looks they were on their way from Chicago to Detroit.
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

06-20-2008, 12:00 AM

candor

The Pot Calling the Kettle Black LaRouche: Obama Is An Idiot And You Can Quote Me On That
http://www.larouchepac.com/news/2008/06/11/larouche-obama-idiot-and-you-can-quote-me.html
Obama is so far in advance of LaRouche both intellectually and morally, it's laughable.
I suppose we should be grateful that LaRouche didn't embarrass himself further with any of his charmingly outdated Black Sambo remarks.
If I were a young person who wanted to make a difference and hooked up with LPAC by honest mistake (as I had), then I would cut free NOW, THIS INSTANT from this cult (which even as a cult is going nowhere) and hitch my wagon to a national candidate who is making a real difference to make this a better world. A pro-science candidate. A pro-literacy candidate (unlike the notoriously ignorant crank LaRouche.) A pro-personal-responsibility candidate. A candidate with whom you will have a shining future rather than an old geezer like a crazy uncle in the attic with whom you will assuredly have an abashed past.

06-20-2008, 12:46 AM

poe

Quote:
Originally Posted by candor
Most of the LYMers and LYMettes were recruited around stopping the Iraq war. In the past, LaRouche has boosted Kucinich's impeachment efforts against Bush-Cheney as here:
http://www.larouchepac.com/pages/breaking_news/2007/04/24/kucinich_impeachment.shtml
But, unless I am mistaken, no reference is made on any LaRouche site now to Kucinich's similar move this week. Does this mean that LaRouche is gearing up to harm Obama in every way that he can, even if that means laying off of Bush-Cheney so as to do as little damage to McCain as possible?
Obama, by the way, is pro-science and pro-technology. LaRouche doesn't even know how a toaster operates - unless he has a drink in hand.

Also, after the New Hampshire Primary, Kucinich called for an investigation of vote fraud by Hillary Clinton against Obama. That probably didn't win him a whole lot of support in LaRouche Town.

06-20-2008, 01:08 AM

xlcr4life

Quote:
Originally Posted by candor
If I were a young person who wanted to make a difference and hooked up with LPAC by honest mistake (as I had), then I would cut free NOW, THIS INSTANT from this cult (which even as a cult is going nowhere) and hitch my wagon to a national candidate who is making a real difference to make this a better world. A pro-science candidate. A pro-literacy candidate (unlike the notoriously ignorant crank LaRouche.) A pro-personal-responsibility candidate. A candidate with whom you will have a shining future rather than an old geezer like a crazy uncle in the attic with whom you will assuredly have an abashed past.


I goes even beyond what you are saying Candor. Take the case of Gary Genazzio. He joined in the mid or early 1970s. He was a talented artist and drew cartoons for our publications. He also worked in our production operations using his skills and somehow ended up booted into the field. Think about that for a minute LYM and LYMettes. He ws 66 years old and I may have some pictures off of the web showing him at card table shrines.
What makes this more of a tragedy is that Genazzio was talented enough to at one point to work or study under the great Stan Lee of Marvel comics. This was emailed to me by someone who knew him from the 1970s and was shocked to find out how he died.
Genazzio could have been persuing his talents in drawing to who knows where. He could have been making money doing card and comic book shows if he worked with Stan Lee. Instead, you end up at 66 doing card table shrines and being mauled by a dump truck late at night on a lonely highway putting gas into a Larouchemobile. I can think off the top of my head several former members who joined when Genazzio joined, left decades earlier and are now in charge or working with big publications, think tanks, investment houses, editors of big newspapers and having real lives persuing their dreams or beliefs.
Instead of that, we have Genazzio putting in 16 hour days with endless 6 to 7 day weeks for a madman for nothing but a few bucks and still doing this at 66. One wonders just how much the boomer hatred which Lyn does over and over drives the remaining boomers to completely ignore themselves for Lyn? The longer you are in , the harder it gets to leave in the dynamics of a cult.
For those of you who know LC history, there is an ex member who like Genazzio is a cartoonist. This person left the LC a long time ago and joined a major Newspaper where he is their featured cartoonist. His works appear in over 40 newspapers around the world and have more influence on any given day then the entire corp of LYM and LYMettes in public opinion and influence and Lyn after spending 250 million dollars and several decades.
Think about that one LYM and LYMettes when you wonder what you can do outside of this sick, brutal cult of delusions. Think about that when you are given 5 bucks to fill the tank up on that Larouchemobile you are given the keys to and pray that you can make it back to the office for that 1O PM update and beatdown about not hitting quota.
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

06-20-2008, 04:29 AM

eaglebeak Gary's Life

Quote:
Originally Posted by xlcr4life
He also worked in our production operations using his skills and somehow ended up booted into the field. Think about that for a minute LYM and LYMettes. He ws 66 years old and I may have some pictures off of the web showing him at card table shrines.

xlcr4life@hotmail.com

Gary left our production operation and went to Chicago in the 1970s or 1980s, when the org was still based in New York, before it moved to Leesburg.
He was in Chicago for the past 25 or more years, suffering through all that went on in Chicago, Detroit, and the Midwest Region all that time--with the Ken Dalto dictatorship in Detroit--which extended to Chicago, and under which then-Chicago NC Gerry Rose basically crumbled.
Gary remained in Chicago throughout Gerry's overlordship, and then Sheila's, as the region shrank to next to nothing.

06-20-2008, 06:51 AM

KosherSoze

Blood on his hands... so much blood Someone out there must have an idea of how many of LHL's footsoldiers have died - either by their own hand, organizational/medical neglect, 'accident', or needless but to-be-expected tragedies like this latest horror.
Gary Genazzio
John Morris
Ken Kronberg
Jeremiah Duggan
Mike Gelber
These are just the names I've found on a quick flick through this thread. People here will know of others. But already I cannot think of one other organization on the left (or even perhaps the right) with such a mortality rate, even over a 35-40 year period - not even the Workers' League.
What's ironic is that LHL is the guy who has for years been telling the world that everyone's out to assassinate him. But he's still here. And these guys ain't.

06-20-2008, 02:01 PM

poe

Quote:
Originally Posted by eaglebeak

I am so, so sorry to hear about the deaths of Gary Genazzio and John Morris.
I knew Gary from the time he joined in New York, in 1973 or 1974. For a number of years he worked at WorldComp when WorldComp was in Manhattan.
Gary was a lovely person, very kind and gentle. It's a tragedy for him to die on a lonely dark road in the middle of southern Michigan late at night--and all for a broken gas gauge, or an empty gas tank--
It's a tragedy too for John Morris, and I hope that people who knew him (as I did not) will write about him on this message board. I have received a phone call from a former member who knew him, who says he was very nice, very kind, enthusiastic--two wonderful people, in other words.
Another former member just wrote to say that Gary Genazzio was a kind man and an artist. He was walking in the lower Manhattan junkshop district one day and saw a life-sized marble bust of Schiller in a store window. He button-holed everyone at the office until he had collected $200 to buy it for Helga. There is no doubt that the only things you have in life are the ones that you give away. This former member, a devout Catholic, wrote that she hopes that Mary and Jesus and Mozart are with him in heaven at this moment.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I remember driving around Michigan in all weathers, in all kinds of cars, at all times of day or night--driving to Grand Rapids once from Detroit in a Ford Pinto (!) in a full blizzard late at night for meetings the next day (all cancelled, of course, because of the blizzard).
We traveled in blizzards, in tornadoes (Anderson, Indiana comes to mind), stopping to "organize" (panhandle?) to get money for gas and food. These were organizing trips, so called, written up in the Ops Bulletins as great triumphs, just as the LYM writes up their aimless wanderings today.
What happened with Gary and John? Did Bob Bowen not give them enough money? Were they late to some stupid meeting--Jackson? Ann Arbor?--as they headed back east toward Detroit, and therefore afraid to stop for gas? Was the gauge broken, as XLCR suggests?
A terrible, terrible story. Our hearts go out to their family and all their friends, inside and outside the organization.
And of course, we all feel sick at the thought that as Gary and John are laid to rest, LaRouche is cackling away with the youth, attacking the "old" Boomers who have worn themselves out in his service, plotting his next 15 years, apparently not noticing the shadows lengthening around him.


Will there be a funeral or wake?

06-20-2008, 08:55 PM

xlcr4life

5 Attachment(s)

Quote:
Originally Posted by KosherSoze
Someone out there must have an idea of how many of LHL's footsoldiers have died - either by their own hand, organizational/medical neglect, 'accident', or needless but to-be-expected tragedies like this latest horror.
Gary Genazzio
John Morris
Ken Kronberg
Jeremiah Duggan
Mike Gelber
These are just the names I've found on a quick flick through this thread. People here will know of others. But already I cannot think of one other organization on the left (or even perhaps the right) with such a mortality rate, even over a 35-40 year period - not even the Workers' League.
What's ironic is that LHL is the guy who has for years been telling the world that everyone's out to assassinate him. But he's still here. And these guys ain't.


You can add someone who I believe is the first victim named Roger Chamberlin. He was 21 years of age when he embarked on a cross country trip to NYC. His death was laughed at by NCs who thought it was funny to joke it about when there would be a discussion of the Larouchemobiles.
Also add Denise Henderson who was run over by a van in DC while working a legal job to feed herself. She just went to cross the street and was gone.

Poe, there is talk of a funeral. People may not know this, but Genazzio faced death very early in his LC life. In the Detroit office when we were doing RYM work, a RYM recruit I believe came to a house or office with a shotgun ready to shoot an NC. Genazzio leaped to tackle the gunman. In the end, no one knows and very few remember. That is the LC way.
We have had a few close calls with members who do interesections. EIther you will be rundown or will eventually feel the effects of breathing toxic fumes daily later on in life LYM and LYMettes.
Is it worth it for a crazy guy? Breathe real deep for that extra boost of energy so you get your LaroucheBucks.
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

06-21-2008, 05:45 AM

boomer70

Give the devil his due. It seems to me that in his economic predictions the Hube has been basically right, that the economy has been suffering a "ratchet-style collapse" for a long time, that the collapse is already at the point of frightening devastation, and that this is what Hube has been snuffling about all these years.

06-21-2008, 03:03 PM

borisbad

I also remember Gary from the days of WorldComp and before. He was a gifted cartoonist, who I believe had worked at Marvel Comics before being drawn into the cult's orbit. He was a nice guy and never seemed to be of the type to be a zealot. I found the following site of the 2004 Cook County Democratic Party election results which lists Gary as a LaRouche delegate along with others like Gerry Pechenuk and his wife, Judy Clark (nee Acheson) and her husband.
http://www.voterinfo.com/results/031604/el52d.pdf. Going to page 55 of the report you see the figures for Genazzio and his running mates which was higher proportionately than I would have figured.

06-21-2008, 03:07 PM

borisbad

I didn't make the initial connection until I did a Google search and saw that Gary Genazzio's painting of Indira Ghandi appeared in the "Memoriam for Kenneth Kronberg" in the EIR last year. Seemed ironic.

06-21-2008, 09:01 PM

boomer70

Quote:
Originally Posted by borismaglev
Please, permit me to clear my throat, as discreetly as humanly possible.

whatever

..

06-21-2008, 10:17 PM

poe

Yes and No

Quote:
Originally Posted by boomer70
It seems to me that in his economic predictions the Hube has been basically right, that the economy has been suffering a "ratchet-style collapse" for a long time, that the collapse is already at the point of frightening devastation, and that this is what Hube has been snuffling about all these years.


Yes and no. Yes, the economy has been suffering a "ratchet-style collapse" for a long time, and it is getting worse and worse and does seem to be leading up to a total breakdown of the system. But, Lyn has been claiming the total collapse will occur "any day now" since the late 70's, so you can't exactly say that he was right. He's not all wrong, but he's not quite right either (pun intended).
I don't know if he has made this point himself or not, but I think that part of the reason his timing has been so off is the China factor. When I was still in, LaRouche seemed convinced that the Chinese leadership would never allow the urbanization and industrialization of China, and, at the time, this seemed to be a pretty good guess. But China did decide to to go modern, which I think explains both the org's shift on China policy and the world financial system's extra years of life. I do think though that we are nearing the end of extra time this bought.
If the man were either all wrong or all right it would be a lot easier to acheive closure. But he is neither the total genius he claims nor the complete fraud his enemies assert. He is kind of like an idiot-savant.