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FACTNET.ORG FORUM: LaRouche Continued 5c


< FACTNET.ORG FORUM: LaRouche Continued 5b | FACTNET.ORG FORUM | FACTNET.ORG FORUM: In defense of the LaRouche Movement >

06-30-2008, 06:36 PM

earnest_one

Team Work

XLCR:
You are uncovering massive amounts of comments and info. Interesting material, truly, for people (like us) who were/are affected by the cult.
But it looks like you have a team of helpers! LL's counterintel "section" probably knows who you are, but I hope you are being careful, because you are the glue around here and provide tremendous inspiration to others.
Note, too, that encouragement is one of the easiest things to give people yet, for some reason, it is a rare animal in this world. Your encouragement for the young ones to bolt (with wise preparations) is worthwhile and admirable work.
Nobody could question your dedication (while inside the LC you probably got a lot done?!).
Again, simply hats off to you as my amazement continues unabated.

06-30-2008, 07:22 PM

eaglebeak

Nice Work!

Great stuff, XLCR! it's fascinating to read this material, and heartening to realize that almost everyone who encounters the org backs off in horror.
The reason I didn't mention Debbie and Larry Freeman in my roundup of the NCs in Leesburg is that they are based in Baltimore--Larry is the field NC there (as well as being the org's "Africa expert"--what a joke), and Debbie is who-knows-what, but she's based in Baltimore.
But you're right that she has a National Office role--LaRouche's Uber-Spokesman (also, a big role in driving the NEC crazy, particularly Nancy, with her constant attack-phone-calls). She has more power than almost anyone on the NEC (except Jeff), so it makes sense in that respect too to class her in Leesburg, even though she hangs out in, lives in, Baltimore.

06-30-2008, 08:40 PM

howie

It is pretty easy to subscribe to receive email notices collecting any new item that google picks up ala Larouche (or any other term for that matter). One can also subscribe in the same manner at technorati or bloglines. xlcer, of course, is a lot more comprehensive on such matters.

06-30-2008, 09:38 PM

xlcr4life

2 Attachment(s) Debbie does Dulles

Quote:
Originally Posted by eaglebeak
Great stuff, XLCR! it's fascinating to read this material, and heartening to realize that almost everyone who encounters the org backs off in horror.
The reason I didn't mention Debbie and Larry Freeman in my roundup of the NCs in Leesburg is that they are based in Baltimore--Larry is the field NC there (as well as being the org's "Africa expert"--what a joke), and Debbie is who-knows-what, but she's based in Baltimore.
But you're right that she has a National Office role--LaRouche's Uber-Spokesman (also, a big role in driving the NEC crazy, particularly Nancy, with her constant attack-phone-calls). She has more power than almost anyone on the NEC (except Jeff), so it makes sense in that respect too to class her in Leesburg, even though she hangs out in, lives in, Baltimore.


This really is the Bizarro world where Lyn can consult with the LC's African Expert Larry Freeman about Obama's ancestry, Debbie can have a hotflashback in trying to screw another Black Democratic Senator like Obama and then she proclaims herself as the Democratic party friend of the Cong. Black Caucus!
Any bets on this particular skeevosa using her time on the next LPAC webcast to aks Lyn to elaborate further on his April LatoucheTown speech about Obama's famili sexual history?
There is even more Bizarro world for Debra. Take a look at the picture below of a rally against privitization of Social Security and the article by Debra Freeman.
&imgrefurl=http://www.movisol.org/ulse164.htm&h=310&w=454&sz=149&hl=en&start=11&tbnid=cGYuxmkcMbEHDM:&tbnh=87&tbnw=128&prev=/images?q=debra+hanania+freeman&gbv=2&hl=en&sa=G
Notice the sign being held up by someone which says
"Don't screw old people!

Now LYM and LYMettes, why do we say with confidence and evidence that you are all in the Bizarro world?
Well, for one thing, Debbie Freeman was the big kahuna in the Baltimore office which had several fundraisers which she and Larry ran whom were indicted. Some were convicted for stealing more money from the elderly which eviscerated the retirement savings of many.
Go to this NY Times article
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B0DE0D9143EF93BA25751C0A961948260
and at the bottom you find this:
"The authorities said five of those indicted were thought to be outside Virginia, including three arrested in Baltimore. They were identified as Rochelle Ascher, Fred Haight and Keith Levitt.
Other arrested were Michael Billington, Richard E. Freeman, Martha Quinde, Lawrence M. Hecht, Richard Welsh, Kathy B. Wolfe, Paul and Anita Gallagher and David M. Shavin.
Now this means that Debbie and Larry were the local NCs in charge of the Baltimore boiler room while Richie Freeman back then , was still Debbie's brother in law.
Just look at how the cult skinned some people alive here.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/longterm/cult/larouche/larou7.htm
Where was Debbie when Rochelle was in the office when this was going on?
... development, the lawyer for another LaRouche fund-raiser, Rochelle Ascher, has asked for a special prosecutor to investigate an elderly Pennsylvania woman who is trying to recover the $740,000 she said she gave to Ascher and other LaRouche fund-raisers over the last year.
Ascher has been free on bond while she appeals her conviction last April in the securities case for soliciting loans for LaRouche, knowing that the lenders would not be repaid. Last week, the state Attorney General's Office moved to revoke her bond on grounds that she has used "undue influence" to raise donations.
Among contributors who say they were pressured by Ascher is Helen Overington, 82, of Waynesboro, Pa. She wrote to Ascher in March, saying, "I plan to pursue whatever legal action is necessary to recover my property, including answering questions in court about the LaRouche organization and persons with whom I dealt . . . . If a substantial amount of my property is returned, this matter can be dropped."
In a motion filed Monday in Loudoun County Circuit Court, Ascher's lawyer, John P. Flannery II, alleged that the demand is an attempt "to extort monies from {Ascher} in exchange for not testifying against her . . . . "
Flannery also alleged that Overington, her family and law enforcement officials "have continued to orchestrate her threats through various media contacts."
Overington's attorney, Lynne Y. MacBride, could not be reached for comment.
Read that last line again. The cult now says that Aschcer is the victim here! What a load of crap and just another proof how Votaire was right. This cold hearted, cruel and demented collection of sick people had no trouble committing such financial atrocities after being in the cult.
My how proud Debbie and Larry must have felt back then is reporting all of these "specials" to Will Wertz . They were on top of the world and a true example of an NC power couple.
According to some exLYM, Debbie does not live 5 or 6 to a room like we have read a few posts back. She is reported to have a nice home in the suburbs from what I read. Any chance she has any thought in her head about how her fundraiser's brother John Ascher is outside the office continuing his descent in health and normalcy?

What a load the LYM and LYMettes have to listen to . There are so many other groups and candidates and things to get involved in which are not cults.
A note about the post which has an EXLYM talking about how the cult wanted him to be their photographer. I got news for you. We had two photoraphers, Stewart L and Phil U. Stewart tookl the photo of Debra below. You think he is earning any royalties or decent money for doing that? The poor guy was still wearing the same shirt he had in NYC decades agoon a webcast I saw years ago. The other guy Phil R is so poor that it is so sad to be told about what he has had to endure for years and years. The cult will offer anyone a dream job as the bait. They di this whenever you mention how you plan to persue some career. Jeremiah Duggan was told that he had a future writing article for the Euro publications. Jeff S told LA LYM and LYMettes a few years ago that there were "openings" in Leesburg for bright recruits on a web cast I heard late one night from their office.
If you escape a card table shrine, expect to be used up and thrown to you parents a few decades later like we have read here recently. People who had musical talent expected to be playing their instruments in a Larouche White House instead of selling them . Most ended up at card table shrines or boiler rooms instead of music rooms.
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

06-30-2008, 11:36 PM

borisbad

I believe that Debra Hanania-Freeman many years back addressed herself as "dr." getting a Ph.D. from somewhere. Doesn't seem that she uses that title any more but she did for a while when she thought it would be advantageous. I came across her name as a reference in a publication on how birth control pills and devices like Norplant are used for genocide against Native American populations, citing an article she wrote for EIR in May 1993 called "Norplant-Freedom of Choice or Planned Genocide." I guess that's based upon her being a "doctor."

06-30-2008, 11:39 PM

borisbad

Just found a site from a European conference where Debra is definitely called "Dr." and described as LaRouche's Health Care Policy Adviser." Wonder how she describes the health care conditions for members of the organization?
Maybe that's a question to ask LaROuche for his next publicized broadcast in July.

07-01-2008, 12:30 AM

eaglebeak

Dr. No

Quote:
Originally Posted by borisbad
Just found a site from a European conference where Debra is definitely called "Dr." and described as LaRouche's Health Care Policy Adviser." Wonder how she describes the health care conditions for members of the organization?
Maybe that's a question to ask LaROuche for his next publicized broadcast in July.

Unbelievably, shortly after the Freemans moved to Baltimore in the 1970s, Debbie got a Ph.D. in public health (another incoming irony).
We can see from the condition of the Labor Committee members, the offices, everyone's teeth, the kind of health insurance "provided," etc., how very seriously she takes her mandate.

07-01-2008, 12:45 AM

earnest_one

Local Control "Maybe that's a question to ask LaRouche for his next publicized broadcast in July."
Borisbad, surely you are joking!? It appears, from the outside, that ALL those questions are setups (e.g., questions coming in from Senators?!). Besides, I emailed some questions, multiple times to LL, not for his "World-Historical WebCasts" but because they used to claim, online that he answered ALL questions submitted. I never go a single reply other than being put on the Schiller Institute Mailing List (big surprise).
Now, surely he knows who I am (kids out there, you can bank on that one, for reasons to be discussed later, hopefully a long, long time from now).
But I gave him the sort of hard time implied by Eaglebeak's technical questions, albeit about something far less technical yet still incompetent on his end and yet it was a constant theme.
I also gave him (and others) a hard time about the expression: "people in the lower 80% of family income brackets."
The expression is a mouthful. And the word LOWER!? Who, in the majority, is LOWER? It smacks of ruling class talk, bizarre at that. Only people at the top can see the majority of citizens as lower than them.
Why not say the vast majority of Americans, or the overwhelming majority of working people, or the masses or one or 10,000 other expressions what don't involve some stupid convoluted expression like "lower 80% of family income brackets." As XLCR states, it is designed NOT to appeal to people, but to fail.
I looked into the origin of that expression. There was a very short contribution to Scientific American, some years ago (before LL started speaking that way) that actually had a graph, detailing the LIVING STANDARDS of people in America, dividing them into quintile qroups. It gave the statistics going back to the 60s or 70s, something RARELY talked about by ANYBODY. Besides, even in the bizarro world of LaRoucheCo, one should probably bump the percentage up to 90%, given what has happened. But I think I tracked down the basis for the statement, the evil statistical basis -- the original evidence.
The present policies appear to benefit the top 0.0001% anyway, with the rest trickle down to the top 2% or 5% who are required to "service" the ruling class.
But I digress and this board is for LL Cult Material, not politics in general.
I would be curious what people have to say about LL's phrasing, however. I responded to Poe's remark and asked, "What group of people does that material (on those websites) appeal to?" (or some similar question, where I suggested the answer: Mad Magazine collectors.)
I am curious whether anyone has thought, in detail, about why LL and crew continue to use the particular phrasing mentioned above. Surely this can't be the best expression if one is interested in "public consumption".
Or I am wrong, and have my head up my arse. Not the first time, if true.

07-01-2008, 01:29 PM

borisbad

Notice the sign being held up by someone which says
xlcr for life quotes this doozie from the LaRouche org. "Don't screw old people!
How about we see the dead enders and the youths start organizing a real campaign? For instance decent medical and dental benefits, a retirement program for the baby boomers, living wages for the LYMers. Freedom of association, freedom to read and listen to whatever members feel like. That would be a real interesting campaign. LaRouche reminds me of Napoleon in Orwell's book The Animal Farm.

07-01-2008, 09:01 PM

howie

"What group of people does that material (on those websites) appeal to?"
People like this guy:

07-01-2008, 09:05 PM

xlcr4life

1 Attachment(s) Debbie Freeman has a PHD in Publkic Health? WTF!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by eaglebeak
Unbelievably, shortly after the Freemans moved to Baltimore in the 1970s, Debbie got a Ph.D. in public health (another incoming irony).
We can see from the condition of the Labor Committee members, the offices, everyone's teeth, the kind of health insurance "provided," etc., how very seriously she takes her mandate.

Hold on here this is a true Bizarro world moment for everyone to consider. Let us first take a look at what this degree means at a place like UC at Berkley
http://drph.berkeley.edu/
Or read what U of Oaklahoma says.
Doctor of Public Health (DrPH)
"The Doctor of Public Health degree (DrPH) is an advanced professional working degree designed to provide broad preparation in the fundamentals of public health as well as to provide education for a higher level of research, teaching, or professional service in public health than is attainable through the master's level program. Specialization in one of the five public health disciplines is required: biostatistics, epidemiology, health administration and policy, health promotion science or occupational and environmental health."
Folks, you do not get more Bizarro World then Dr Debie Hanania Freeman. This skeevosa ran in in the 1970s against Parren Mitchell where her USLP campaign lit has it loud and clear that Parren Mitchell was a house nigger for the jews of Baltimore. 30 years later she is gets to relive those great years and pass Lyn's racist drivel about Obama Barack to the present LYM and LYMettes.
Now she parades herself as a Doctor of Health who in the 1970s as a USLP leader was telling everyone that Rocky was going to kill off a few billion people and she had the graphs in our pubications to prove it.
This is on top of her parading herself as a Democrat in a party which attracts Blacks and Gays whom Debbie or Debra Hanania Freeman always seems to campaign against.

In the 1980s she went through two PANIC (Prevent Aids Now in California) initiatives which had a few bilion people dying of AIDS . The LC was very anti gay and ran the campaigns targetting gays while calling Lyn's delusionary enemies faggots in signs and articles.
Did Debbie ever raise a question about any of this? I never heard a word out of her asking for anything but money . See it here.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=940DEFDA1731F931A25752C0A96E948260
Let us review her 1980s campaign in Md as a democrat.
http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:TqPjcV6KkScJ:lyndonlarouchewatch.org/fascism15.htm+vote+straight+and+debra+freeman&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=us

The Baltimore LaRouche organization smeared liberal Democratic congresswoman Barbara Mikulski in the 1982 and 1984 primaries, as noted earlier, but the softening-up tactic was best seen in 1986, when Mikulski became the Democratic candidate for the U.S. Senate. She was opposed by Republican Linda Chavez, a Social Democrat turned neo-conservative who had served as the chief of President Reagan's public liaison office. The Republicans regarded the race as a crucial one in their battle to keep control of the Senate, and the LaRouchians obliged by lesbian-baiting Mikulski in the primary. NDPC candidate, Debra Freeman, urged Maryland Democrats to "vote straight Democrat." She continued this rhetoric beyond the primary season, calling Mikulski a "dike in the way of progress" and the "ugliest woman in Congress." New Solidarity quipped that there should be a prize for anyone "who can correctly identify Mikulski's sex." Chavez adopted a watered-down version of this, calling her opponent a "San Francisco-style Democrat" and warning that she could not "hide in the closet." Supporters also dredged up stories about an alleged affair between Mikulski and a staff aide. But many voters apparently were disgusted by the Freeman-Chavez act: Mikulski won a strong victory in November.
Anyone ever remember Dr Debra Hanania Freeman talk about OSHA regulations on blood borne pathogens? Any word on needle disposal and Universal Precautions from her or the cult when we ran our aids campiagns? We certainly had a lot to say about gays to scare voters and raise money for Larouche.
Dr Debra Hanania Freeman writes about Norplant and genocide. Wasn't she a big wig in the LC when we were sending female LC members to get abortions to save humanity? Ever hear her complain or raise the issue in a memo, briefing or National Conference? Any stories about life in the Baltimore region under her and how come she never had kids?
In the 1990s our public health expert joined in with the Nation of Islam medical expert who has his own theories about AIDS .
http://users.starpower.net/rrosendall/archive/1993/notaxdollarsforbigots1108.shtml#footnote6
"URBAN, which has accused others of racism in its effort to become a broker for black health care funds, has sought to get GLAA representative Mindy Daniels removed from the Regional HIV Health Services Planning Council because she is a Jew [5]. URBAN's efforts at intimidation, while they were not successful, did not show much respect for the D.C. Human Rights Law.
Since the Abundant Life Clinic is to be Sankofa's primary facility, I bought some audio and video tapes by the Clinic's director, Dr. Abdul Alim Muhammad, who is also Minister of Health for the Nation of Islam. The tapes were quite revealing.
In a speech recorded at Howard University last February [6], Dr. Muhammad claimed that HIV was created in a U.S. biological warfare laboratory for the purpose of destroying Africa's black population. He said that the virus was spread by the World Health Organization through a contaminated Smallpox vaccine.
Dr. Muhammad has made a crusade of advocating AIDS treatments based on alpha interferon. These treatments, under the trade names Kemron and Immunex, have been found ineffective by AIDS experts from Germany to Uganda. But Dr. Muhammad states that Kemron was dismissed by the health care establishment precisely because it might be effective in saving black people's lives, and because the "white devils" would never take seriously anything discovered by an African doctor [7].
How on earth can the District of Columbia consider giving one dollar to a health care facility run by a man who makes a career out of preaching bizarre, hate-filled theories about genocidal conspiracies, and who profiteers from the sale of ineffective medicine to people who are sick and frightened? [8] "

Read any, any questions about this when Debbie interviews Dr. Abdul Alim Muhammad
http://www.hackcanada.com/ice3/aids/aids5.txt
This skeevosa has happily pranced and danced her way over a thirty + year nightmare of toothless LCers, ridiculous health insurance or no health insurance, members being kicked out of their homes, milllons being sent to scam artists, more millions sent to the Ibykus estate , regular dances with anti semitic groups, harrassed a black US Senator to the point he had to use a firearm to get rid of us, pushed the most insane propaganda of end of the world fables, ran homophobic campaigns against Democrats, a regular stream of LC abortions, bankrupted the elderly with her boiler room and a never ending worshiping of Lyn.
This Dr. of Health has members who who talk about how they do not know how to provide neonatal care for a pregnant LYMette because of how the cult runs itself.
The LYM and LYMettes are just fodder for this cult . You should check around and see if Dr. Debbie Freeman and the cult have as much for a dead Gary Genazzio and John Morris as Debbie has for the wife of one of her pals. The best Gary gets is a Chicago newspaper obit that features that he is a Larouche member, paints a bit and by the way, send money to the Schiller Institute. The guys who give money to the cult and make Harley look good get better obits in EIR along with anyone whose appearance with Lyn gets him some press and more supporters to feed off of.
You LYM and LYMettes are worthless in the grand scheme of things. Just go look at some recent LPAC and EIR obits and compare that to how members die and what happens to them, you have a fundraising memorial for your three decades of slavery. See what Debbie does when you balance some dead LCers and the wife of someone whose name you can use to create more illusions about the cult and Lyn. Do you think the cult gave her a ride in the same cars it sends you out to make the cash so Debbie can feed her face, pay her bills and live in a nice place away from you bums?

http://sistermashala.blogspot.com/2008/05/in-memoriam-sister-mashala-muhammad.html
Debra Hanania-Freeman said...
Dear Dr. Alim and Family,
Words cannot express the sadness I felt when I heard of the passing of our beautiful sister Mashala. I remember the very first time I met her, at the old Abundant Life Clinic. Sometimes, you meet someone, and although you don't yet know them, you sense that there is just something so very special, so very extraordinary about them. Mashala was such a person.
Years later, when Alim and Mashala married, I couldn't think of two people more perfect for each other.
It is so very hard to find the right words at a time like this. Some years ago, we lost someone who was very special and Mr. LaRouche, in an attempt to comfort us in our sorrow, said "an angel has flown." It is appropriate to say that about Mashala. An angel has flown.
Please accept my most heartfelt condolences as well as those of your friend Lyn LaRouche.
Dr. Debra Hanania-Freeman
National Spokeswoman
LaRouche PAC

xlcr4life@hotmail.com

07-01-2008, 11:25 PM

earnest_one

Dupont?!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by howie
"What group of people does that material (on those websites) appeal to?"
People like this guy:

Hey, he is a special case. I had dinner with him once in Leesburg, in 1985. If kids of the super-wealthy are being lured in at any substantial rate (more than one every 30 years) then, perhaps, conditions might be a bit better.
But of course you really only need to tap into one good streams of cash to make things fly for a while. I was always amused at the stories about Lewis Smith's fights with his family. I think there might even have been an "intervention" or a kidnapping (an anti-cult deprogramming thing).
I know that Roger M. had a similar experience, earlier. Roger's family, from Panama, are hardly Duponts, but they aren't peasants either.
Besides, Howie: I was looking for examples from the target group -- "people from the lower 80% of family income brackets".
Surely they exist, somewhere.

07-02-2008, 12:27 AM

candor

That photo of Debbie Freeman xlcr posted - isn't that a still from Jurassic Park? You know, after the security controls go kerflooey?

07-02-2008, 01:34 AM

eaglebeak

Love in the Labor Committee

Quote:
Originally Posted by borismaglev
The "don't screw old people" has special ironic meaning to those who know Debbie Freeman's sexual antics after she dumped her aging husband for some yute(s).


The gestalt is true, but the particulars need some correction: Larry Freeman dumped Debbie after he had been having an affair with (the younger) Donielle Berg for some months, perhaps years--Debbie didn't know about it for eons--at least, that's what my NEC sources told me at the time. Then, of course, there was the bizarre situation in which Debbie and Larry didn't tell the NEC for the longest time that they had broken up --because, apparently, they were afraid one of them might get kicked out of/hauled out of Baltimore if the NEC and Lyn found out.
Very weird.
Larry and Donielle ultimately got married. Debbie did appear to have some boy toys after Larry and she broke up, but I'm not sure that it wasn't more appearance than reality. She certainly WANTED to seem to have some boy toys. And she began dressing rather rakishly, to say the least.
But, to be clear, the dumper was Larry and the dumpee was Debbie.
However, from their standpoint, they're doing just fine--Lyn thinks Larry's an expert on Africa, and Lyn thinks Debbie talks to James Carville.
(While she's at it, she should ask James what he thought of Avi Klein's article. Right next to Klein's article in the Washington Monthly there appeared a big ad featuring Carville promoting theWashington Monthly as the must-read mag. Oopsy-daisy. Guess Debbie doesn't talk to James enough. Or maybe she talks to him too much?)

07-02-2008, 09:10 AM

shadok

Doctor Freeman

Doctor or not.... the sad "irony" is that it contradicts a fundamental rule in the LYM: DO NOT STUDY AT UNI!
How dares she parade with her whatever PhD when those LYM kids won't never be allowed to get one! Same with our campaigns to defend the elderly or oppose abortions and "population control", slave-labor etc.
Self-contradiction is a characteristic of the lar org.

07-02-2008, 11:56 AM

KosherSoze

Whatever happened to...

Lewis DuPont Smith?
Did he get away? Is he still in a boiler room somewhere? Did he switch over to the Scientologists? (You know, a change is as good as a rest.)

07-02-2008, 03:01 PM

xlcr4life

Quote:
Originally Posted by KosherSoze
Lewis DuPont Smith?
Did he get away? Is he still in a boiler room somewhere? Did he switch over to the Scientologists? (You know, a change is as good as a rest.)

Lewis Dupont Smith switched over to Webster Tarpley.
I swear I can not tell the difference between Webster and the cult except that Lyn is not the center of the article. Tarpley and Chaitkin go way back . Webster must be kicking himself in the rear for unloading his mother's house for a song and handing over a good chunk to Lyn and the cult in the 1980's. Maybe this is Webster's last laugh.
Dupont would have lost everythng to us. I remember how everyone would count the 10 million he had like sugar plums in our heads to bankroll us. Well, bankroll Lyn. lyn was so happy that he was involved with Dupont's wedding in Europe I think. No matter what Dupont signed over, you still got 5 bucks. Not only has that not changed today but when a LYM or LYMette dies, they will get a 5 buck obituary instead of what the boiler room contributors who are milked like cows will get.
There is a story to be looked into about Dupont Smith and the Leesburg sheriff's office or police. Security had some kind of plan where local authorities were hired by Dupont's family and all hell broke loose. The people who were hired by the family were arrested and some went to prison.
http://www.whyaretheydead.net/misc/Factnet/CO0992AB.TXT
Dupont showed up at I believe at the Dr John Grauerholz funeral a few weeks ago in Leesburg. You can see how Dupont woiuld have lost all of his money to us and he should thank the courts for saving his money so he does not end up running out of gas. In this entry on wikipedia you can see how the end of the world mentality effects everyday thinking.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Du_Pont
Lewis du Pont Smith, in an April 27, 1994, open letter to shareholders on DuPont's CFC Policy, warns that DuPont Corporation will be destroyed when a consumer backlash demands a Congressional investigation "regarding the science behind the ozone depletion fraud and the economic forces that pushed for the CFC ban", which he called "the most massive consumer fraud of this century", warning that "The cost to consumers of the ban on CFCs will exceed $5 trillion: the consequences on human health will be devastating." Eight years before, Lewis du Pont Smith had been declared mentally incompetent to handle his affairs after he gave hundreds of thousands of dollars to Lyndon LaRouche.[18][19]
Dupont's prediction of the end of the Dupont corporation is on par with Lyn's predictions as Dupont is a 28 Billion dollar or so a year company. As I type this as I am looking at my beautiful Corian countertops in my kitchen while music plays through my Kelvar coned loud speakers while my home is wrapped in Dupont sheathing and the roof is watertight due to Dupont coatings. Every Sunday I watched NASCAR and cheered on Jeff Gordon in the # 24 Dupont Monte Carlo.
The cult will have a strong hold or grip on people many years after one leaves. I never knew how strong it was until I began to see , due to the web, many former members who give money to the variuous incarnations of the cult.
Take for instance a guy a few of you may know about named Ira Liebowitz. In perusing the LPAC finaces to see how much they spend on fuel for the LYM and LYMettes I noticed how some of the most dirt poor members, with kids give big chunks of money. One name which I did a double take was the 5 thousand given by Ira Liebowitz to LPAC. Go down about 10 donors.
http://www.opensecrets.org/pacs/pacgave.php?cmte=C00309567&cycle=2008

http://209.85.215.104/search?q=cache:uLydERaYjmYJ:www.free-press-release.com/pdf/download/200804/1208349386.pdf+lewis+dupont+smith&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=11&gl=us
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Philadelphia press conferenceannouncing the release of new book:Obama - The Post Modern CoupLewis duPont Smith and contributing author Bruce Marshall will discuss the risks in the Obamacampaign, run by a reckless elite around Zbignew Brzezinski, as told in the new book by Webster GTarpleyPress ConferenceWednesday April 16, 9:30AMDillworth PlazaCity Hall, PhiladelphiaApril 14, 2008: A press conference announcing the release of Webster G. Tarpley’s new bookOBAMA: The Post Modern Coup.Lewis duPont Smith of Philadelphia and contributing author Bruce Marshall, will bediscussing the economic, strategic, and social dangers inherent in the Obama campaign, acampaign that is not of the people, but rather of a dangerous elite led by Zbignew Brzezinskiand others.From the Preface- “This book exposes Obama, but it does so from the standpoint that isfundamentally different from almost all other critical studies seen so far. This book exposesand refutes Obama from the left….but always from a standpoint which reaches back to theFranklin D. Roosevelt New Deal…―Webster Griffin Tarpley (Massachusetts 1946) is an intelligence expert and historian whohas been studying and exposing covert operations for over thirty years. He is the author ofGeorge Bush: The Unauthorized Biography (1992) and 9/11 Synthetic Terror (2005). He hasappeared on C-SPAN, CNN, Fox News, and many others.Bruce Marshall, formerly of Germantown, PA, ran for Congress with Green Party of Vermontin 2006. Organized the Philadelphia Emergency Antiwar Convention 2007, the “PhiladelphiaPlatform,― and was responsible for issuing the Kennebunkport Warning: Seeactindependent.orgLewis duPont Smith, former Congressional Candidate and independent political activist.Contact: 267 205-3954 The following review of the book is at Lulu.comWhy do we know so little about Obama?Is he the Secret Door to World War for Brzezinski & Co?1 of 3http://www.free-press-release.com/
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Politicians do the opposite of what they promise more often than not. So before you vote,plug your ears to their speeches, and see what policies their advisers advocate.In "Obama: the Postmodern Coup," Tarpley gets a giant scoop as the first to delve behindthe screen into the forces behind Obama: his policy advisors are far right-wingers! ZbigniewBrzezinski is CEO of the BHO show. For the economy, regressive Skull & Bones and WallStreet figures. In military affairs, it's Gen. McPeak, the perpetrator of genocidal civilianbombing tactics.Obama's backers make a laundry-list of the elite: the Rockefellers, Rand Corp., Council onForeign Relations, Trilateral Commission, Chicago School of Economics, Bilderbergers - andthe Ford Foundation six ways to Sunday. No wonder he gets the lion's share of thecampaign financing from the corporations and a free ride from the corporate media.All unawares, the United States slipped into the grip of a soft coup last fall, the Brzezinskifaction has won over the power elite, and the neo-cons are already lame ducks. Tarpleyfinds that "Zbig" also controls two of the three front runners for the presidency -- BarackObama and John McCain, but that Obama is the elitist favorite for a facelift to the totteringempire.Obama is a Brzezinski protegé, scripted in the lofty role of savior, a required figure in theplanned hysteria of the "people power" coups perfected by the CIA and NGO's in EasternEurope. The recipe has now been brought home to short-circuit America's political process.Tarpley should be dean of social sciences in a prestigious university, if they aren't all fundedby Rockefeller and Ford foundations! I have a poli sci degree, but almost all of "PostmodernCoup" was new to me:- American political history is marked by cycles or "party realignments" of about 36 or 40years, such as FDR's 1932 landslide or the upheavals of 1968. A few right-wing strategistslike Samuel Huntington know this. They began planning around 1980 to subvert our currentcycle shift, first by the War on Terror, now with the synthetic, pseudo-leftist Obamamovement, to set the nation on a course they will determine until around 2050.- The Democrats repeatedly nominate losing presidential candidates with their caucussystem, favoring "Volvo-driving" Democrats who decide the primaries in red states, whichthe Dems don't win in the GE. Obama continues this tradition of Mondale, Dukakis,McGovern etc. - folks who won't play in Peoria.- Fascism doesn't start out as a right-wing, top-down system. How to recognize it in the bud?It begins as a youth movement, often leftist, idealist, mystical, with stirring slogans, euphoria,and a theme of national regeneration. Like Obamania. Mussolini and Hitler both got theirstart with outwardly leftist laborite parties.- Why does Obama want to attack Pakistan, the world's 6th largest country, with almost 3times more people than Iran, and 6 times more than Iraq? It's a Chinese ally, and to get atRussia, Brzezinski wants to isolate China, forcing it to attack Russia to get oil. A madcapscheme that will only isolate the US even more."Postmodern Coup" is a book with a mission: to stave off the looming world-historicaltragedy Tarpley foresees. Yet it's about much more than "Manchurian candidate" Obama, or2 of 3http://www.free-press-release.com/
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even Brzezinski and his earlier puppet, Jimmy Carter. Historian Tarpley draws on anunparalleled store of erudition, past precedents and inside knowledge of today's politicalplayers, and distills it in this book for our up-to-the-minute situation.It's a crash course in the essentials you need to know about US and world politics, but themedia never wanted you to.http://www.lulu.com/content/23255543 of 3http://www.free-press-release.com/


xlcr4life@hotmail.com

07-02-2008, 05:06 PM

howie

"surely they exist, somewhere"
Remember back in March when the Larouche website of "news releases" was having difficulty getting anything up, long lag-time and sputtering and lots of dead time? Remember how everyone here noticed? Remember how the Boiler Room in Leesburg noticed, and it was the subject of an internal discussion there?
Do we have any evidence that anyone anywhere else noticed?

07-02-2008, 06:39 PM

earnest_one

^^^^^^^ Noticing There is no "evidence", of the scientific sort, but I certainly hope that The Good Lord is noticing and that, at judgment day, people are called to account for their actions.
Not to burn in HELL forever (that concept is only used to frighten and control people, here on earth -- I don't think any soul will burn forever or even burn at all), but as a first step in their "re-education" so that they can learn something DEEP about their actions and thoughts (conscious AND unconscious thoughts) and then change their personality and go foward selflessly devoting time and energy to others.
As "Martin" said, he simply wanted to walk hand-in-hand with the Lord, doing good works. That is the reason we are here (according to many) and I am inclined to believe it and, when possible, practice it. We all fail compared to the ideal, but one can try one's best, at every moment.
Good works, now! (Soon it will be reduced to a TV commercial slogan.)
But one simply cannot take seriously the abstract bizarre ideations of some Rube Goldberg-like chain of events that, on the best days, make LL's "superior" methods look 0.0000000256% plausible. But, of course, MUST BE working magic on the world at those "higher" levels (a path detailed in "secrets known only to the inner elites" ... please excuse me while I go throw up).
Back now. How about holding someone's hand, or giving someone a hug who is frightened or unhappy, or providing meals to the hungry? One need not think of the starving billions when there are plenty of cases, everywhere, staring everyone in the face, here in America.
Oh, but that is the evil practical-level thinking that leads one astray, and prevents bold action from taking hold.
Yes Master. Yes Master. Yes Master.
To be genuine, you must walk the walk, not simply talk and talk.
I read that in The Book, and tried it, early in life. It felt good. A great "sensation".

07-03-2008, 03:35 PM

eaglebeak

Lewis and Webster

Lewis and his then-fiancee, now wife, Andrea, left the org, but remained--at least, Lewis remained--a huge fan of LaRouche's.
After they married and moved back to the Philadelphia area, they ran afoul of the Philly local and Philly NC Steve Douglas, which precipitated their leaving.
However, Lewis continued for many years to believe that LaRouche was a genius and a world-historical whatsis. Lewis was also, for a period, very close to Paul Goldstein, who also believed that LaRouche was a giant among men, albeit with feet of clay (or worse).
Lewis has always been attracted to ultra-conspiratorial views of history, all the way back to, say, 1983, when he was first being recruited by Tony ("American History as I See It") Chaitkin. Tony was giving Lewis "history" classes--at the time, I believe, Lewis was a history teacher at a private prep school, but his appointment there did not last long.
Anyhow, that being the case--attraction to uber-conspiracies--Lewis and Webster are a marriage made in heaven, because Webster's stock in trade has always been to put forward the most absurd, over-the-top, outre visions of conspiracy run amok.
It was Webster, after all (with Lyn enthusiastically behind him) who predicted that nuclear weapons would have to be used in the first Gulf War, because hundreds of thousands of Americans would be coming home in body bags, thanks to "ingenious Iraqi battlefield tactics" (to be fair, that was Lyn's phrase).
Webster also gave the moronic conference presentation in which he declared that the American Ideology was one of fatalism and submission (ulp! Whatever happened to "Can do"?), a state of affairs that he blamed on Jonathan Edwards, the Great Awakening, the Puritans, whatever.
There was a time when Webster was a very big fan of Romania's Ceausescu--he wrote an eyebrow-raising centerfold for New Solidarity on the subject back in the '70s.
Webster was also the idiot who connived with Lyn to present the notion of Latin as a fascist language, the language of empire, in which no profound concepts could be expressed (well, hmm, Virgil, Catullus, Juvenal, Horace, Cicero, zillions of Church fathers, Augustine, Jerome's translation of the Bible, etc., and, later, Thomas Aquinas, Leibniz...).
Webster gave the conference presentation in December 1981 in which Latin was consigned to the trash heap of Labor Committeedom. (Dumb is right.) This, of course, was because Lyn doesn't know Latin, and resents it. (Not an airtight argument, however, because Lyn also doesn't know Greek, but gets around that not by trashing it, but by pretending he does know it.)
After Lyn and his coterie had been raving for years about the innate superiority of the inflected languages (that would be the Indo-European languages, principally), it was discovered that Latin was TOO inflected.
Anyhow, Lewis and Webster are a perfect pairing; Webster is a flimflam man, and Lewis is extremely gullible.

07-03-2008, 05:58 PM

borisbad

Quote:
Originally Posted by earnest_one
Hey, he is a special case. I had dinner with him once in Leesburg, in 1985. If kids of the super-wealthy are being lured in at any substantial rate (more than one every 30 years) then, perhaps, conditions might be a bit better.
But of course you really only need to tap into one good streams of cash to make things fly for a while. I was always amused at the stories about Lewis Smith's fights with his family. I think there might even have been an "intervention" or a kidnapping (an anti-cult deprogramming thing).
I know that Roger M. had a similar experience, earlier. Roger's family, from Panama, are hardly Duponts, but they aren't peasants either.

Besides, Howie: I was looking for examples from the target group -- "people from the lower 80% of family income brackets".
Surely they exist, somewhere.

I remember Roger. He was a great guy, not sure if he left or not. I also remember a few other "rich kids" again nothing on the order of the DuPont family. A couple were children of hot shot lawyers in NY (white shoe law firms). I remember one who had been in the Richmond, VA local for a while and in the Balt. Reg. back in the 70s. Think his name was Al M. His father was some type of diplomat or State Dept. big wig. Needless to say when he left he was denounced as probably a CIA agent or something (of course he could have been). The think I remember most about him was that he was very much into gourmet coffees. This in an org. that would be happy to get a Starbucks never mind a Jamaica Blue Mountain. He also had a stash of Cuban cigars. He was lucky to get out pretty early and was not in for a long time in any event.

07-03-2008, 06:22 PM

candor

Once upon a time, it appears that Lyn made a big deal about "mother's skirt(s.)" Compulsive conspiracists (e.g., those of the so-called Truth Movement, the Birchers, the LaLaists) strike me as the type who only believe what they find in the darkest recesses of mother's tresses to be true: what is evident to all in the broad light of day is of no interest to them at all. This is not to say that conspiracies do not exist - they coalesce all the time - but only trained intelligence professionals would have the competence (the "relevant competence" some might say) to ascertain their true identity and nature. The Tarpley/LaRouche-types can rarely be found prognosticating in such areas as neurosurgery or geochemistry - they prefer to stick to wordy subjects, where it is all too easy to obtain a reputation as some sort of authority by the liberal application of BS, all the while appealing to people with mediocre intellects who feel they have no power over their own lives - one source of antisemitism and other sorts of racism, to be sure.

07-03-2008, 07:56 PM

xlcr4life

1 Attachment(s) Yes, this is the Bizarro world cubed

Quote:
Originally Posted by eaglebeak
The gestalt is true, but the particulars need some correction: Larry Freeman dumped Debbie after he had been having an affair with (the younger) Donielle Berg for some months, perhaps years--Debbie didn't know about it for eons--at least, that's what my NEC sources told me at the time. Then, of course, there was the bizarre situation in which Debbie and Larry didn't tell the NEC for the longest time that they had broken up --because, apparently, they were afraid one of them might get kicked out of/hauled out of Baltimore if the NEC and Lyn found out.

I am hoping that trained professionals who study cults and those who study the psychology of cults read every word here and see just how crazy people are in the LC. I stand back and reread what people post and add it to what I know and find out and I truly see one large mental pavillion called the LC. If you ever imagined and entire closed loop universe built on fiction interspersed with some real news, this has to be a gold mine to study in detail.
What Eaglebeak is writing about is a recent event in LC history. In reading what BorisMaglev wrote about Webster Tarpley I just had to repost some of what happened many , many years ago in the Euro and US LC between Muriel and Webster. They were a couple in Europe and Muriel wished to end the relationship. In a cult, you have your life micromanaged by lunacy and the LC was no exception. There was an NEC meeting in NYC I was told about where both presented their cases in a followup to a meeting with Lyn, sort of the "People's Temple Court". Muriel had some effection for Webster and used to call him "Der Dicke' "The fat one" and they were together for a while in Europe.
The story I was told was that Lyn did find Webster to be cheap and gave his blessing to Muriel to leave him. In NYC, I do not know the exact timeline, but the NEC was told this and whatever plans Webster had to have Muriel ordered back into his arms was now moot.
Muriel celebrated by singing "Vitoria, Vitoria" in the city streets.
Webster lost Muriel and a good chunk of the proceeds from the sale of his mother's estate to Lyn during his tenure. That had to hit Webster hard who was relocated to DC to live in a dumpy flat with what ever he could haul out of his mother's house in a trailer with her 10 year old Cadillac. Lyn had a fleet of Pontiacs at his disposal and the 125 or so acre Ibykus estate while all Webtser had were a few three piece suits he would wear in blistering heat.
What is interesting to view in Debbie Hanania Freeman and Muriel Mirak Weisbach is how those two somehow have to out macho the male LC NCs by being more batty. The picture below is of Muriel with Amelia Robinson where the Iranian State news had a field day about how Muriel does not view Iran as an Axis of Evil. Try as I might, I just can not find any coverage in the cult which has a word about any Iranian involvement in terror. Big contrast to when we presented the Muslim Bortherhood and Iran as a bad regime in the 1970s with Hostage for Khomeni.
Former member F.William Engdahl and Muriel cross paths on the Global Research web site of Michel Chossudovsky. You can also find EIR articles there as well as Webster Tarpley. Maybe Chossudovsky pays better then the cult does and does not insist that everything revovle around him in on his web site.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=home
Do you LYM and LYMettes enjoy having your life micromanaged by crackpots and skeevosas? Gary Genazzio and John Morris had their lives micromanaged.
For BorisBad, Roger M left the LC many years ago. He enjoys his life, his business and his offspring and above all his freedom.
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

07-04-2008, 12:08 AM

earnest_one

WINSTAR WINSTAR WINSTAR --- Roger, over and out

Written quickly, with some mistakes.
But just to amplify, mildly, what XLCR posted about Roger M. and his status.
Roger M., left a long time ago. He was Robert McLaughlin's best friend, and McLaughlin was an LC member going back to the late 70s lasting into the 80s. Bob used to work as a programmer for Computron, in NYC. He was also extremely close to Dr. Moon; they all lived together, for a time, out at Sweetwater, VA. I was there, for a week, in the summer of 85, even gave a science talk sponsored by the Fusion Energy Association.
But McLaughlin had truly serious, deadly serious medical problems, and the org basically told him to go off and die (no money to help him at a time where he saw them giving others gifts of china, expensive stuff, altogether not needed to live or to eat, as simple plates suffice). Instead of taking the LC's advice, and dying, he leveraged his knowledge and skills and landed a succession of jobs (mostly consulting work on large projects) in the telecom business.
McLaughlin is the CENTER of the Winstar connection to LaRouchies, as he got in at the beginning (in the Systems Group, although he also held the nominal title of "Chief Scientist"). He got involved in all kinds of things; early on he made the correct call on some business and/or technical decision that impressed people enough to give him enormous freedom to pursue some speculative technical avenues and some patents of his, as long as his regular work and that of his group was accomplished on time and up to snuff.
McLaughlin pulled Roger into the Winstar orbit, got him a fancy job (at some point) and Roger headed a medium size group that basically had a bunch of toys to play with. The did Research and Development work, very interesting stuff and even very practical, for example when some people (or competitors), using back doors, and worms, and virus-type techniques, basically took over our Seattle operations, a huge center of our data network. Bob and Roger and some others got control of this using some high-powered techniques and truly first-rate personnel and defeated the attack. Roger was a fantastic boss, as he took care of his people.
In July 2000, McLaughlin died; the true story of his medical struggles is both long and fascinating beyond measure. Years previously Chuck S. (CBS) drove him to stay with my wife and me after a liver transplant left him wiped out. He went blind from the CMV virus in the new liver. Most people are already exposed to CMV, and have developed antibodies to it. But the hospital did not test compatibility of the donated liver with Bob at the time of transplant (he had been in a coma for a week or two and was near death).
So my wife and I took care of Bob, just a few weeks after a major operation. When he arrived, he looked like he could fall over and die at any second. He was taking 17 different pills a day.
Later, he went blind – via a CMV virus reaction, although with an exotic antiviral agent, called gangcyclovier – and a large IV bag, infused nightly -- he was able to keep pinpoint vision in one eye (the other one was completely shot, dark, gone). With the help of fancy machines, he could read a bit.
We corresponded, after his visit, and when he told me he went blind, I wrote him back and said, "Jesus Christ, sorry, my friend. I know this is the LEAST opportune time to ask, but I am being squeezed by some a..holes on two contracts, contracts completely fulfilled by me. Can you send over some consulting work?" He responded by saying that he would try and would be in touch by date X. A decent guy, one in 100 billion.
EXACTLY on date X he was in touch (he was fabulous about such things, keeping his word, in the midst of personal and business nightmares) although he said he had failed, miserably to get me work but that he work keep at it. Indeed, he kept at it and soon I was a consultant, on the payroll, writing research reports for him. Then he hired me as a regular employee, but I did not have to show up at headquarters (I lived 400 miles away). When he died, the Chief Information Officer (CIO) at Winstar, whom Bob reported to (it was a 500 member Systems Group, in a 7,000 employee telecom) took an interest in me (having read many of the super-technical reports) and brought me down to Herndon, VA, close to Leesburg.
Roger was there, and he headed a research-type group. MANY other ex-LaRouchies and/or defacto LaRouchies were floating around. Bob got a kick out of stealing people from LL, by offering them REAL jobs, with REAL pay, and benefits, doing, for the most part, REAL work. The corporate world, crazy as it seems, actually must produce something of substance to survive.
This is ONE part of the Winstar story that I was going to write up, and still will, as I probably know more about it than anyone, having stayed with the company during the crash, when a six billion dollar capitalization telecom, with a stock price of $80 on NASDAQ and HUGE agreements with LUCENT and Microsoft, got squashed in the market when the capital markets dried up. The stock price fell to a penny, then to zero. From $80 a share to zero, in less than a year.
I survived 6 drastic layoffs, till we were down to 700 employees, nationwide, and I was in the middle of it all – the Cost or Revenue Project Point Person at Systems during Chapter 11 bankruptcy; the liaison to the bankruptcy court-appointed restructuring officers (the guys who come in and slash and burn); a direct report to the CIO, etc.
Long story short, McLaughlin (and Roger) brought in a lot of LaRouche types and gave them jobs – jobs that lasted until the people either didn't perform [or totally ripped him off, like Zeke Boyd did, in a total con] and/or until the crash affected them (15 to 25 LaRouchies, all types: former, present, one leg in, one leg out, etc. were in the mix).
Final note, of the UTMOST significance. LaRouche LIES to people about Winstar. In an open auction, Winstar bought from the government licenses for transmitting frequencies in the 28 and 38 gigahertz range – this is millimeter-wave range, ABOVE microwaves. Note that the airwaves are, in a sense, publicly owned, so you must behave yourself to some extent and develop these licenses in a timely manner (put out products that use the spectrum and get the products up to specifications for each application,
The technology that Winstar was developing was on the LEADING EDGE of TECHNICAL developments at that time. Here it was not in-house development, per-se -- except for databases and programming -- but we advanced the technology by directly supporting product manufacturers of other companies). The technical idea is simple. Everyone has seen the little one foot diameter (or much larger) satellite dishes that point up in the sky to those geosynchronous satellites. These dishes and the low noise amplifiers and the decoders, ONLY receive signals through the air from the satellite. The end results are television shows (news, sports, movies).
Here, crucially, the link (between the satellite and the dish) is ONE way only.
At Winstar, we used digital radios, that TRANSMITTED AND received signals. NOT to and from satellites, but between rooftops of buildings in downtown locations (the signal was basically horizontal to the ground). The key here was that the signal path HAD to be DIRECT, line-of sight between the dish antennas (except for, possibly, a few birds once in a while). The business advantage was that it was extremely expensive to lay down optical fiber to every (or most) big buildings in downtown locations. Tearing up sidewalks and streets is fantastically expensive and the engineering diagrams for the locations of water and gas and electrical lines are not reliable, if they are extent at all for many old cities. Insurance is costly because mistakes can cost a fortune and people can die.
So fiber into buildings had a slow penetration rate (and DSL and high-speed cable were in their infancy).
Here, Winstar made use of the fact the SOME big tall buildings already had fiber connections. They located these special buildings, called them HUB STATIONS, and put these radios and dishes on the roofs. Any good Hub Stations had to have excellent line-of-sight capabilities to many other buildings in the area. Here we mean buildings that could be miles away, although there are technical difficulties because of rain (some raindrops are near the wavelength of the transmission/receiving frequencies and they attenuate the signal).
The FCC requires that, if you offer local dial tone service (which MUST be tied into 911 lifeline services) that you must be up and running 99.999% of the time (five nines reliability, or something near this). So for each city (we had presence in 30 cities, plus Europe) the design of the links (the connections between each pair of radios and dishes) – the link distance, was computed probabilistically, based on weather pattern data going back 30 to 50 years. In places like Phoenix, the links could be very long (long links also required a lot of power, another problem, as linear power at these frequencies, is not easy, hence not cheap). But even short links, when there was rain, could be improved (less error correction) by boosting the signal to overcome signal attenuation due to rain.
But the transmissions and the links that WINSTAR offered were true, genuine, REAL PRODUCTS: Winstar provided businesses with local and long distance voice services; high speed Internet; private line services (companies want private lines to communicate between headquarters and/or manufacturing plants; data networks (a vast infrastructure); ATM networks (another vast technology and infrastructure that must be tapped into). And we had a large number of government contracts: FBI headquarters, justice department buildings. Surely, LL's name gets bandied about over these links. And soon after 911, we went into NYC (where we already had a large presence) and set up communications facilities, helped the Red Cross and others, and saved lives.
So, originally, Winstar bought the licenses, was granted the rights to put this technology into practice (there was some competition, but we owned more spectrum at 28 and 38 GHZ than everyone else combined). One slogan was "air fiber" because some of these links, albeit line-of-site and going through the air, could really handle a lot of bandwidth. Some of my technical explanations are wildly simplistic because there is a carrier frequency and coupled to some sophisticated modulation schemes. The modulation scheme is what provides the high bandwidth. Even distortion is dealt with in a neat way. If you know the type of distortion, then you can pre-distort the signal before sending it, so that when it arrives, it is in the form originally intended. (Can LL do this, does he know how distorted his is, on the 80% end of people in the "lower" brackets?)
But seriously, about LL. I will gather his statements stating that Winstar did nothing, that it was basically a dot.com (we were, in part, a dot.com, certainly bought lots of them and owned the domain "office.com" which at one point was worth a lot of money). This was not unusual, it was standard domain name speculation – perhaps LL was also involved in it.
But the technology behind WINSTAR's products and services, the digital radios, the dishes; the Lucent switches for voice in cities (huge machines, huge, taking up vast amounts of square footage in large cities); the ability to go from digital to analog to twisted pair copper; the circuit technology needed to tie all this into the optical fiber network (where one single strand of fiber is wildly multiplexed and can hold hundreds of super-high capacity lines); the infrastructure including cable lines, the co-locations, the diagnostics and monitoring of these fancy Lucent 5ESS switches (which we owned – part of our extensive infrastructure); the monitoring of time data on calls that billing must use; the pattern of switch closures, monitored for telemetry about circuit usage and the health of the network; the telemetry and monitoring and controlling of the radios themselves and the status of the links; ---- ALL this was very real, very real technology, based on real serious science, certainly ideas and techniques that can be traced back to Kepler in some way (if simply wanted or needed to have his name involved); or Gauss, certainly Riemman – there is a lot of science to fancy digital radios and today's telecommunications. (far more difficult than producing a dynamic web site!)
LL did not like Maxwell, but Maxwell's partial differential equations ARE THE basis for all radio transmissions, even into deep space (because we went to the moon, KENNEDY endorsed Maxwell, indirectly!); but if you don't like Maxwell, somebody, somewhere made discoveries that account for 50% to 99% of our present high living standards (compared to pre-Maxwell, someone who surely made discoveries himself that are sufficient to celebrate as contributing to a high standard of living with vast potentials.
Only a willful dunce like LL who knows nothing technical of any depth, would bother to question Maxwell's work, BEFORE becoming a publicly acknowledged expert on the science involved.
Now, yes, Winstar WAS a speculative stock enterprise, manipulated by analysts and various other forces, but the underlying products and technologies were MASSIVE and super-interesting, involving many aspects of science and technology that lived at the forefront of research efforts, perhaps they still do.
To **** on these interesting ideas and technologies is only to expose yourself as an ignoramus of the highest order. But LLcan get a crowd of scared fools to laugh along with him, although they will NOT be along for the ride when HE is the one laughing all the way to the bank.

07-04-2008, 02:47 AM

xlcr4life

Ernestone, what you mention about Maxwell rings very loud to me. Whe I left the cult I returned to school to learn a new profession. In the basic courses I had to relearn physics and clean out the LC lunacy about basic science figures. In a few of the technical classes it seemed that my new profession was heavilly based on discoveries of Newton, Maxwell along with various British and French scientists. Other people did a lot of work as well, but the basic laws of energy and physics run multimillion dollar equipment.
If I was a LYM or LYMette I would have denounced the instructor and made an ass of myself before dropping out and enslaving myself. Instead, I look forward to a great Fourth of July holiday with my family and friends.
What did Zeke do at Winstar? All I hear about him now is that he is lucky to have job driving medicare recipients to local medical offices and lucky to be alive. Seems that marrying Barbara is not exactly marrying "up".
Considering the way the cult loves China and has some curious friends in Russia, has any of the trade secrets of Winstar shown up overseas? How much access did Larouche members have to classified or state of the art technology which would be valuable to an outside source
From what was mentioned to me by a few people many years ago, Lyn was salivating profusely at the thoughts of having access to something valued in the billions. How he would benefit I can either think of the old way of primitive accumulation or maybe some newer means in trying to buy friends and influencing people. Sure beats hustling old ladies on conservative boiling lists. LC members have proven to be willing to evade Grand Juries by skipping the country, screw each other financially , create several seperate cover stories for members and go to prison for their delusions while Lyn negotiates his bargains. Lyn would denounce Winstar and everyone who was there daily and very vocally if he only needed one or two people to casually share what they know as an occasional guest for a nightcap of RheinGau. Cults have that much control over people and Lyn has made it a point to know every intimate detail of members lives to keep them in line. Jeff and Michelle could make a good buck in the conspiracy racket like Webster, but they always Pledges Allegience to Lyn and really have no Independence Day to celebrate . You can hold dozens of notebooks on a disc.
Lyn has this habit over the years of stating quite openly what he will be doing to members via it being done to someone else. On the LPAC web site you can read about how Lyn is calling Obama an "Elmer Gantry of politics" who is a loser.
Hope everyone has a great holiday.
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

07-04-2008, 03:25 AM

eaglebeak

Winstar

Thank you very much, Earnest One, for what you wrote on Winstar--I find it fascinating, in many cases heart-wrenching, and completely coherent with everything we know about Lyn--namely, he's an idiot and a liar.
I remember when Bob M was dying--remember because Roger M told me some of the story of him, of Winstar, of what it had done and meant to people. Roger described Bob much as you have, but your description is much fuller.
The more you can tell us--and everyone else--about Winstar from every standpoint, the better, because it has been one of Lyn's shibboleths for years now; the fact that it filed for bankruptcy in 2001--the same year that Ken moved WorldComp and PMR into their new building and somehow thereby enraged Lyn (well, Lyn was enraged because Ken had told him they could afford it ONLY if they kept the Weiss account, and then Weiss changed the nature of the account and ultimately went under itself)--ANYHOW, Lyn in his endless confusion conflates Winstar's bankruptcy and PMR's "betrayal" of him (betrayed him by losing the big account that really paid for Lyn's crap).
But Winstar itself and its links to the org have remained a mystery to most members, esp. those LYMers and LYMettes who don't know who or what any of this is, but hear Lyn raving about it.
It is therefore salutary to have you lay out the story, and debunk Lyn's version utterly.
Also of some of interest to members--not only did Zeke work there for awhile--and I am very interested to hear about the con you mention--but so did Michele Steinberg. In fact, when Lyn kept ranting about Winstar, Michele told me at one point that if he didn't shut up, she'd---- (left the sentence unfinished).
Even the inner circle of Lyn's Praetorian Guard finds him infinitely hard to take.
Again, thank you.

07-04-2008, 05:45 AM

earnest_one

Much More to Come

XLCR and Eaglebeak,
First, many thanks. Encouragement is needed and appreciated.
What I wrote is quite similar to another posting, on the previous board. Obviously, I did not look at it (although I should have, it would have saved me some time).
I have a TREMENDOUS amount to say about Winstar and McLaughlin (who was true friend, extraordinary boss, and a man of his word – a true man of his word). And, of course, I have plenty to say about LL's horribly misleading statements. He is simply lying. I will organize some very crisp history, with references, etc., and at some point give the story, well organized.
Of course LL was scared, because McLaughlin (and others, that Mclaughlin hired, albeit people who were nominally under his control) were hiring LC characters (especially those that could actually do some work, like the older editors).
Now, believe me (and who wouldn't!), when you get paid $35 to $65 an hour as a consultant or $50,000 to $120,000 a year as an employee with benefits and stock options (worthless but the thought of having a stake in a company is nice), then life looks very different. And things are positive.
If you are actually doing work, programming, or writing or making deals with other companies and bringing in business in the form of joint projects, or researching new technologies for Winstar to invest in, or figuring out how they could optimize and save money, then you are being productive and not simply talking about talk and talking crazy talk.
So I think that LL, while intrigued with the prospect of maybe controlling some people and getting some portion of their salaries, was NOT in any position of leveraging his Winstar "assets" and making millions.
The company was run, at the top, by others, NOT associated with LL. I now say something very interesting. The very top executives of the company, the COO and CEO were JEWS, and they were on lists put out by other anti-Semite groups (have no idea why they showed up on the radar). Perhaps this is one aspect of the LL's hate.
But I have thousands of pages of original documentation about that Winstar as a corporation and news stories, and org charts that I tracked down, near the peak of when ALL the LL--associated people who finally got attached in some way, showed up on the payroll. Except for Zeke Boyd and other guy. Zeke claimed to be an expert in some technical area and put off producing some work (the "deliverable") for some time. He pushed Mclaughlin's patience to the limit (and Bob was a very patient, nice guy. When all deadlines passed, when all was on the line, when it was time to show/demonstrate "some" work, Zeke produced ZERO. A total fraud, according to Robert Mclaughlin who got taken for tens of thousands of dollars. He was steaming about it for almost a year. His family was ready to twist Zeke's head off if he ever came near Bob again.
Some of these people were really good guys and gals (Roger M. previously mentioned was a key partner of Bob's and in on all kinds of things, early on; but then I mention Susan M., who was amazing—she could work, work hard, and she knew what she was doing, without the slightest delusion about anything.; there were plenty of nice people, and some real jerks).
But I know of no one higher up than McLaughlin who had an LL connection, and I see no evidence that he was on LL's side (he hated LL, hated how he was treated when he was ill and was basically told to "go off and die, you worthless piece of sh.t." So he got quite a thrill out of HELPING PEOPLE AND stealing them from LL. Once you get a taste of what it is like to earn a decent living, and feel productive while doing it, then it is hard to return to that miserable life.
Again, I will write up, when I have time, a comprehensive timeline. But do pay attention to this:
EVERYONE who had ANY sense, (ESPECIALLY McLaughlin) KNEW that Winstar was going under LONG before LL said a word. The company was designed to be bought out, not to be an ongoing enterprise, making money/profits.
Here I note that it almost happened -- Winstar's executives REJECTED a very high stock offer from either LUCENT or MICROSOFT of maybe WORLDCOM. I forget. But they were already at $80 a share and the offer was for much more. The executives got really greedy, knowing how "special" the technology was, they were anticipating stock values of $300 a share. They misjudged the capital markets.
When all hell broke loose, in April of 2001, sanity came quickly for some but slowly for others, even at highest levels inside the company.
I was in the middle of everything, because of my relationship with the CIO, and my professional responsibilities: THE Senior Analyst in the (originally large) 500 member Systems Group. When things were on the way up, the bullsh..ters gain the edge. When things start to fall apart, they need truthful, reliable people, who can be trusted completely.
Here I enter the picture as nobody either inside or outside of Systems knew how to get the true information out of the databases. The oracle fields were not linked, and there were too many systems, hundreds of different databases.
I was so trusted that I was the person who was responsible for providing the bankruptcy court restructuring officers with Systems Info, with the Reports that they requested. Here I learned all the systems, and specialized in designing ways of finding the truth (about the number of real customers, income, expenses, circuits, employees, etc., etc., etc.) by employing multiple independent checks, using a huge array of disparate info.
My point is that McLaughlin told me in 1996 or 1997 at the latest that the company would crash that it was not designed to work, long term. LL's dot.com predictions/forecasts are simply incompetent ravings, especially if Winstar was being mentioned, because he forecast what everyone already knew – at least those that had any sense.
When we went bankrupt we were losing 3 million dollars a day!! That's over a billion a year.
Losing, losing, losing, losing. And when people started to value ongoing, real profits over potential profits 5 years down the road it all collapsed, in terms of stock price, not simply for Winstar but for all such companies (except, surely, a few special cases).
But we had some very, very fancy technology. Stuff that anyone would be proud to be associated with.
Maxwell's equations are the basis of electromagnetic waves and ALL radio and satellite communication. LL is on record as saying that it is all phony math and that Maxwell was a fraud. The truth is that Maxwell was colossal giant whose name and equations will be central to science for eternity.

07-07-2008, 03:29 AM

howie

Watch this site for Larouche's current, and frankly temporal, hoped for breeding ground -- probably more for money than anything else:
http://clintondems.com/2008/07/lyndon-larouche-george-soros-1932-video/

07-07-2008, 04:22 AM

kheris_0

oh lordy..........yeah I would imagine they are trolling for dollars and keeping themselves hooked to Hillary. Sounds like she has some folks who are all to willing to go over to the dark side without thinking about who is waiting for them there.
I got a note at my blog from Howie G about the video, downloading it now. He says Beltran is narrating it.

07-07-2008, 01:11 PM

borisbad

Was reading the comments and they read like some of the posts that have appeared on this site, in other words, I only know a little bit about LaRouche but his ideas seem interesting. The usual word is shill. But perhaps Clinton and Soros are political enemies and some in the Clinton camp don't like his influence. Not that long ago LaRouche was attacking the Democratic Leadership Committee, which was headed by Clintonistas and Al Gore, etc. as being like the southern Dixiecrats for violating the Voting Rights Act supposedly because they wanted to keep LaRouche's people out of the Democratic Party.

07-07-2008, 09:33 PM

xlcr4life

LYM and LYMettes, do you have any idea of how great it is to enjoy a three day weekend with your family and friends?????
A weekend in which there is no crazy Pre Holiday memo about another assasination plot and how the cult has not hit quota and you are on full alert????
A weekend where you romp and play with your kids, sleep late and enjoy a paid holiday where you decide what to do, when to do it and how to do it?????
A weekend where if you want to do some work, it is around your home where you may have some invited guests instead of an endless parade of strangers in a permanant Larouche Flop House???
A weekend where you cook for several people because you have a BBQ grill, some great food and booze to enjoy each other's company instead of cooking group meals to keep the local from starving and you drink to drown the endless stream of exploitation and abuse you endure as a "Volunteer".

Howie brings up some question on who reads and takes the cult's lunacy seriously? I thought if that and wish to give the LYM and LYMettes an anecdotal type description of what I find on the web daily. First, I have nothing organised and my life revolves around doing real political problem solving, my family, my job , my hobbies and so much more. This stuff is but a curious sideshow in my life to help Lyn and the cult be better known by all.
We are a lot alike LYM and LYMettes. I spread the info for no money too.
My collection of Larouche material culled from the evil web is based on silly search engines which email me any story, blog or article on the cult. It is not perfect, but costs nothing. In the 5 years I have seen a pretty standard format of the cult and Lyn. It basically breaks downn to this.
Pre LYM web posts were usually Y2K fanatics who found the EIR web site and linked to an article. which agreed with their conspiracy. This included some religious sites which linked to the cult's articles about Satanism and the evils of rock music.
Regular EIR and LPAC releases which are funny to read because in many cases, once they are discussed here, the links no longer work.
Student activity which grew as the Iraq war got under way. This was reflected in two trends. The cult had a web site called "theacademy2004" which was where innocent students were directed to, to learn all about the cult's facade of geometry , music etc with zero about Lyn's history and the cult's history. College paper articles about the cult began to increase as students began to contact collere newspapers about how they almost got sucked into or were fooled by the cult. The death of Jeremiah Duggan was a watershed event fo the cult because this had the effect of the web through justiceforjeremiah.com being a top hit for people who looked up the cult. This in turn led to students and others asking questions on the theacademy2004.com web site which began to shake loose LYM form the cult and lead to many embarassing questions. There is a good reason why one blog I posted last week talked about boxes of lit being locked away in Chicago away from member's eye s.
The cult responded by shutting down their own forums, switching to yahoo groups which also shut down and now just collect spam.
If you see an article by Larouche being mentioned on a blog, it is almost universal that the poster will be questioned about why they are using a cult or Larouche as their source. It has gotten to the point where web vernacular can include people calling each other "bat sh*t Larouche crazy" or dismissing an argument as being "Larouche Like". You have zero credibility if you bring Larouche or the cult into your blog as a source.
Factnet has played a very important role in this because both the membership and anyone who starts to do a search on the cult winds up here. Parents of LYM and LYMettes have thanked me profusely for what is posted here as they email or send a few pages of what is written here to their offspring. It is never a problem for anyone here to explain things by repeating them because it is safe to assume that you will be getting many people who read this for the first time.
The cult and Lyn really think the web is Satanic since several sites keep in getting referenced or used by others to show why the LYM is a cult and Lyn is nuts. A half dozen sites and wikipedia start the ball rolling as soon as you start to check out the cult and Lyn.
The best material I find in searches is usually by accident in looking for something else. I found "The Larouche Challenge by accident when I looked up skull and bones and Larouche cult one day. It is by an almost random process that you find out that the only site which give favorable coverage to the cult are in places like Iran, China, Russia and any place where having a US based figure attack the US or some vesatige of the past overrides competant journalism. Lyn can present himself as a "leading Democratic leader" or "Presidential Candidate" to get coverage to take back to the USA to fool some more people. Never mind that the Democratic party has done everything it can to keep Lyn from being their verison of David Duke.
The domestic articles which are favorable are usually done by people who get fooled by a card table shrine palming thtmselves off as concerned "volunteers" over what ever the issue is at that time. If you wait a few dyas you wil then read in the comments section about readers who know the cult and ask why the writer was fooled.
You will never find the cult or Lyn in the same page in any mass based blog , magazine or article where a review or discussion of something Lyn wrote is presented as an important piece of work to study . What you find is usually a foreign journal where an article appears which is made into a big deal by the cult, but is later found to be there because blaming The Jews is a common part of the direction of the place or using Lyn to attack the US is easy to do. If you have some conspiracy based outfit, Lyn and the cult may have a chance. Most of the articles found on the cult for eyars were about the death of Jeremiah Duggan, which are later found by other researchers.
In the USA the last year has yielded coverage of Lyn and the cult in mainstream magazines and web sites with stories about the death of Ken Kronberg. These stories have multiplied over and over as the article gets linked over and over. You rarley see articles about the cult in Student papers, but finds them on student blogs with warning about the cult.
Now a LYM and LYMette may believe that the whole world is conspiring against Lyn and the cult. They are right. Lyn has been reduced to a nobody who is a butt of jokes and an insult to methods of logic. Lyn is below Webster Tarpley and David Ickes who cand raw hundreds of people and sell a lot of material. You see LYM and LYMettes, no mater what I may say avbout Tarpley, he is not (yet) asking you to give up your life and join a cult to worship him.
This whole pile of junk is designd NOT to work . It is by design to be disinformation and disruption and a vanity vehicle for Lyn What ever you do with the cult is meaningless. Gary Genazzio and John Morris get better respect here than in the cult. They would not have run out gas if they knew me.
On the Skull and Bones site this was mentioned about Robert Zubrin.
http://www.struat.com/election/2008/07/06/winstar-cryonics-and-the-mars-society/
"I was listening to former Larouchie and current Mars Society head Robert Zubrin on George Noory (fringe on fringe), and after a spell I'm convinced Zubrin should be elected president over Obama and McCain. (Zubrin, I think, wants us to go to Mars and beyond, and left Larouche-land when he realized that the cult was not terribly serious in their stated ideas on the subject, and used those ideas as a money generator and cult- bait and switch. Which is he has something of a fringe position and realized that the only way to get it out of the fringe was to start his own advocacy think tank and make it real.) I'm not entirely sure he's right about Ethanol (I've always thought it was a boondoggle, and depressingly a political potent one) — but maybe he's right… what do I know?"
Zubrin writes books people buy, read and review. Lyn's whole operation is a cult based vanity press where he figured that he could get for free what DC Heath charged him for Dialectical Economics.
Zubrin and other former members have patents for their discoveries. Lyn has naive college drop outs whose qualification is falling for one cheap parlor trick after another. Zubrin and others who left meet legislators, get invited to the White House, have their research and ideas covered by hundreds of real publications.
Here is Zubrin in a blog read by hundreds of thousands of readers and activists.
http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/the-saving-grace-in-mccains-energy-policy/
You do not find any reviews of Lyn's opuses except from other crank web sites or from the sycophnats in the cult who do not have time to read the crap , which is why they like it.
Here is a little history lesson for the LYM and LYMettes. It really does not matter what you are doing even if it makes sense at first. It is just like what we went through in Nuclear power or being anti drug or pro classical music. The stuff which is rationale at first will always be wrapped aorund with a Lyn Cloak to render it useless. The exact same ideas and proposals in the infancy, before Lyn presented it to you had validity. I may agree or disagree about the individual idea, but once Lyn and the cult's methodology gets humming, it is all over.
Any LYM or LYMette wonder what happens when an actual book written by Lyn gets reviewed? I found one the other day by accident. I forgot that when Lyn was in prison the cult went crazy over Cold Fusion . I thought Lyn was going to have an orgasm over the prospect of Cold Fusion Energy Foundation card table shrines at every airport. My memory nay be off, but I think that there was a Cold Fusion journal put out by the cult via 21st Century or advertised there. There are tons af articles and research on cold fusion to this day . Back then, Lyn and the cult were banking on this to get the cult back into gear after burning up all of our contacts over the years.
On the Schiller Institute web site you can read this:
http://www.schillerinstitute.org/boo...criptions.html
Cold Fusion: Challange to U.S. Science Policy by Lyndon H. LaRouche, Jr. Schiller Institute, Inc. Science Policy Memo, Aug. 1992, 173 pages, paperbound, Price: $20.00.
LaRouche's science policy memorandum is a unique proposal which involves recastinhg the whole of modern science, as it is understood by professional practitioners and academics. It is a passionate call for a scientific renaissance which would revive the Platonic tradition of science. LaRouche develops the case that there is a connection between mathematical physics and the pronicples of c lassical music al composition; this emerges fromthe source of creativity within the indivudual,whether he or she be a scientist or an artist. Thus, not only is cold fusion a most promising window on new energy resources, but the simple cold fusion-developed apparatus is a most promising window onnew energy resources, but also threatens the hegemony of the whole of the Aristotelian establishment who now run the science mafia.

(SCHBK 1992-001)

OK. Let the LYM and the LYMettes read a review from someone who has some knowledge of this field.
http://www.chem.au.dk/~db/fusion/
Who reviews books for this site.
http://www.newenergytimes.com/index.htm
It turns out that he read Lyn's book and reviewed it. Keep in mind that this way before anything appeared about the cult or Lyn at the time on the web. Just take a look at the remarkable conclusion he comes to.
http://www.newenergytimes.com/Books/Reviews/LaroucheByBritz.htm

Book Review by Dieter Britz of
Cold Fusion: A Challenge to United States Science Policy, by Lyndon H. Larouche

Ostensibly about 'cold fusion', this book is a collection of LLR's unorthodox ideas about the history of science, thermodynamics, politics, society, music, feminism and philosophy. The book is meant to be a promotion of the author's proposal for a "mini-crash program" of 'cold fusion' research but 'cold fusion' itself is hardly mentioned


This may be the last time Chuck Stevens was ever mentioned before he faded away. I wonder if his employment today as a forgotten boomer is on par with what he thought would happen 40 or so years after he joined the LC? He and Zubrin joined around the same time. Care to take a guess at whose life wound up being at the forefront of space exploration and other topics?
http://www.21stcenturysciencetech.com/Articles 2005/editorial_Wint04.pdf
Lyn needs to get down on his knees and thank Al Gore for inventing the internet . The whole world can see how this whole farce works and how you can keep a few hundred LYM and LYMettes running like hamsters on a few bucks a day and be exploited beyond what farm workers go through.
We have incredible research on LarouchePlanet.info for everyone to enjoy and pester their local NC about.
http://laroucheplanet.info/pmwiki/pmwiki.php

Just look at these chapters we have the the rest of the year to talk about.
NEW DOCUMENTS
June 30:THE CHRIS WHITE AFFAIR: PART ONE
June 24:THE KONTANTINE GEORGE "BRAINWASHING" PRELUDE TO THE CHRIS WHITE AFFAIR
June 24:FAR RIGHT TIMELINE (1965-75)
June 24:THE OTHER EVIL TWIN: GERRY HEALY, THE WORKERS LEAGUE AND "THE COMINTERN METHOD" IN ACTION
June 24:BEHIND THE VALE? THE NCLC, THE NEXT STEP AND THE REAL PAPER
June 24:"BLACK SEPTEMBER" AND THE FRANKHOUSER FILE
June 24:UNITY NOW!
May 30: Konstantin George brainwashing accusations: East Germans Brainwash American to Spy on ICLC in New Solidarity; August 10, 1973


Before I forget, check out the pictures below for Lyn's new wardrobe style and a pre publication book cover . Here is a short intro.

"A humble economist did not know what he was getting into when he took up that job at Walmart. When he uncovers a secret plot by the British to use his discount iPods to make children more susceptible to the Beatles' mind control music, it is up to him and his cult following of college freshmen to stop the Secret Order of Straussians from resurrecting H.G. Wells from the grave and using his army of hippies and drug users to destroy science. Can he do it in time to screw up his next Presidential bid?
http://fenris.furtopia.org/larouche.html
Next I have one of the all time great delusionary rantings by Lyn in an interview. I may have run it before, but is so funny it is worth a rerun

xlcr4life@hotmail.com ++++++++++++

07-09-2008, 04:42 AM

eaglebeak

Goodfellas First, I want to thank Earnest One again for his work on Winstar. This is invaluable material.
I would be especially interested to hear more about Zeke Boyd. I remember once a long time ago, Earnest One, you mentioned in a post something about Bruce Director and Zeke trying to shake down Bob McLaughlin for a "donation" to LaRouche when Bob was on his deathbed. Any more information on this would be very useful.
As I recall Zeke, his chief activity in the organization for decades was making Platonic solids out of pipe cleaners--I think it would be salutary for all the LYMers and LYMettes who find their lives run by Barbara Boyd, to read about the behavior of her husband. Not to mention the importance of any information on Bruce "Dumb for Anti-Dummies" Director, Mr. Legal (or perhaps, Mr. Illegal).
A good friend (and former member) and I got to talking this evening about the LaRouche Business Model, and how uncannily similar it is to the Mafia Business Model identified in movies likeGoodfellas:
If you let the Godfather (Lyn) buy into your business--or if he's there from the beginning--the SOP is looting, looting, looting, till there's nothing left to loot--and then the business gets burned.
This happened to Computron in NYC; to the Ben Franklin Bookstore in Leesburg, VA; to the Fusion Energy Foundation and Fusion magazine, to the radio station in Brunswick, MD; to the Cardinal Park real estate venture in Leesburg, VA; and above all, to WorldComp and PMR.
WorldComp and PMR certainly got burned--and the owner, Ken Kronberg, got immolated by his LaRouche mafia partners.
Levit & James has escaped to some extent, by the simple expedient of never being in a business relationship with LaRouche. They employ members all over the place, and subsidize the org by paying them decent wages; they have set LHL up with an A/V recording studio for turning out such classics as "The LaRouche Show" (this is the cable show where they all interview each other); if you look at LPAC FEC filings you will see all sorts of L&J employees giving the maximum allowable by law to LaRouche PAC, and so forth--but LaRouche was never a customer, so he never stiffed them.
Not sure what I'm talking about? See Goodfellas, especially the restaurant-burning sequence.

07-09-2008, 04:50 AM

eaglebeak

Remembering Abbott Small

Abbott Small died recently--please visit the notice about his death in the Hartford Courant:
http://www.legacy.com/Link.asp?I=LS000112869848X
People will remember him as a lovely person, the older brother to Dennis Small.

07-09-2008, 03:09 PM

xlcr4life

1 Attachment(s)

Quote:
Originally Posted by eaglebeak

First, I want to thank Earnest One again for his work on Winstar. This is invaluable material.
I would be especially interested to hear more about Zeke Boyd. I remember once a long time ago, Earnest One, you mentioned in a post something about Bruce Director and Zeke trying to shake down Bob McLaughlin for a "donation" to LaRouche when Bob was on his deathbed. Any more information on this would be very useful.

A good friend (and former member) and I got to talking this evening about the LaRouche Business Model, and how uncannily similar it is to the Mafia Business Model identified in movies like Goodfellas:
If you let the Godfather (Lyn) buy into your business--or if he's there from the beginning--the SOP is looting, looting, looting, till there's nothing left to loot--and then the business gets burned........................
This happened to Computron in NYC; to the Ben Franklin Bookstore in Leesburg, VA; to the Fusion Energy Foundation and Fusion magazine, to the radio station in Brunswick, MD; to the Cardinal Park real estate venture in Leesburg, VA; and above all, to WorldComp and PMR.
WorldComp and PMR certainly got burned--and the owner, Ken Kronberg, got immolated by his LaRouche mafia partners.
Not sure what I'm talking about? See Goodfellas, especially the restaurant-burning sequence.

I am curious to what Zeke did as well. Zeke took one debilitating pipe, boot etc to the head for Lyn for many years. The last hurrah of Zeke was sitting next to Lyn art some conference years ago prividing security for Lyn from the Knights of Malta hit teams. You have to forgive me for some of this stuff, but being in the LC really is so bizarre that it provides one with so many loony moments later in life. Last week I was perusing a weekly religous newspaper and one article was about how the Knights of Malta were busy raising funds to assist lower income worshipers to visit Holy Shrines overseas.
I guess the Knights of Malta gave up on plotting against Lyn.
http://wlym.com/PDF-SpReps/SPRP19.pdf
Finding the Campaigner Special Report reminded me of something I forgot to tell the LYM and LYMettes about how you can tell you are in a cult. Do you remember the Sep 2004 National Conference called "The Crash You Were Hoping For is Here"? In the conference you all took to the stage and sang yuur hearts off. Did you notice that you were now called
The Larouche Jubille Singers ?
Did anyone of you expect to be singing on street corners for spare change for the cult soon after that? You all may have dropped out of college, but you are all enrolled in Cult 101.
Since EagelBeak mentions how the cult is like the mob, I have here some exerpts from a post I did last year about how Lyn runs a Mafia Cult.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
xlcr4life
Intermediate Member
Username: xlcr4life
Post Number: 132
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 71.196.59.174
Posted on Thursday, July 12, 2007 - 6:52 am:
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The basic economic and structural model for Lyn can be found in almost any Mafia family bestseller. Instead of a Godfather you have a Cultfather in Lyn who underneath has lower level lackeys under his thumb to carry out the demands. Below that you have the NC who function as the sort of "made men" who scramble to get the loot from various enterprises. IN between yoiu have Tax fraud which Lyn was convicted of using the same defense I used to read in local newspapers when a gangster gets caught. They claim to have a legit job and make a low level of income compared to the lifestyle.
Lyn claims to make $28 K a year on one FEC filing form. If this is true than more money in perhaps untaxed cash is paid yearly to Carpet and the rest of the scam artists who Jeff S introduces to Lyn as "part of the family". Even mobsters are not immune from scams run by others who know better and have an insider to promote them.
Lyn did not file for years and you can read all about this in the trial transcripts.
Oh I forgot, you silly yutes only have access to the "Railroad" book. Ask the clueless dollar an hour consigliere wannabes for the transcripts of the trials and read for yourself how lyn and Rick McGraw and his wife took care of the cash. Speaking of clueless dollar an hour consigliere wannabes in Leesburg, the Susan Bowen episode made me think of this.
I still have a hard time believing that a QUARTER CENTURY later, Susan is still at the card table shrine just like Lyn predicted. Now it seems real funny to me that I know of a dozen or so former LC members who left after the Sutton Place meeting and know the current dollar an hour consigliere wannabees from the national Office. These dozen or so exlc went back to school and eventually ended up in law school and became real lawyers while their legal staff friends ended up unqualified to be even a basic law clerk if you read one court's opinion of a brief they filed. These former members who are in the real world practising law have written books, argued before the Supreme court and advise unions, governments and work in highly influential positions. The wannabes basically read the transcripts of Lyn's testimony every day and have not yet been able to put 2 and 2 together to figure out why they are in the Bizarro world.
Mybe they think that Dennis King convicted Lyn instead of our own words. Some how Dennis King is easier to blame for everything than what the cult writes itself.
http://dennisking.org/insult.htm#factnet
The idea of a mafia cult is pretty easy to see in the LC/LYM operation. The King Book and the recent article
http://insidehighered.com/views/2007/07/11/mclemee
point out that Lyn has a pretty good idea about white collar crime, check kiting and other financial scams. We can go a bit further and find that the cult has on a few occasions gone into the character assasination business where for a few K you can get some jabronis to give out leaflets while others make phone calls. Over the years you find that we did this for people we claimed to hate while running against them in elcetions. There is even a blurb I read somewhere where it seems that Bush 1 was interested in our dirty tricks apparatus. The cover for all of this as real unique. Since Lyn is viewed as a nutcase, he can get away with printing crazy things and spreading dirt where others can not.

xlcr4life
Intermediate Member
Username: xlcr4life
Post Number: 133
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 71.196.59.174
Posted on Thursday, July 12, 2007 - 6:56 am:
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Financing all of this is not too hard Earnest one. Lyn writes in the open how he runs his finances. One fo the first things he did was write abpout "primitive accumulation" which you see in how members trust funds were raided. The debt bom came next as we had members take out one loan after another whiel we promised to pay it back. Well, you know what happens when people borrow money for one thing and it gets used for another. The old NS articles about zombie slave labor at UAW plants comes to life when you see how members work for a few bucks a day and instead of methadone we give them endless mental abuse to keep them working 18 hours a day. The use of "replacement workers" over high priced older workers has been the plan for the past few years as an age war between high health cost boomers who had a certain job structure were replaced with low cost yutes.
Lyn used to scream about 'chiseling" at conferences in reference to taking away benefits and money from workers and retirees. According to my calcualtions using moderate CPI figures, a LYM replacement worker today works for in some cases 75% less than what Susan Bowen worked for a QUARTER CENTURY ago!
A few years after I left I read the mafia bio called 'Wise Guys" which was made into a movie. There is a lot of info about a practise the mob uses called "busting a business" . This is where the gangsters become secret partners of a legit business and proceed to clean it out by first building up the business to secure vendor credit. Next the company borrows as much as possible and then delays paying . Cash is skimmed off and the mob takes the companies products and sells them outside the company for quick cash which then goes to the crmie boss who determines where it goes next. In many cases the owner of the company has no idea that his business is being set up like this and will eventually go under. Everything is in his or her name while the local Godfather has all of the proceeds. In a few cases it gets so bad that money for taxes, local fees and employee costs are diverted and never paid back. Legally , the owner is on the incorporation papers while the crime boss has nothing in his name. If the owner complains, well, he can be cajoled, threatened and have his life become pretty miserable.
Boy this sounds like PMR now that I think about it. If what I hear is correct, PMR printed massive amounts of goods which were not paid for. The goods were then transhipped to local offices where the low paid yutes then sold them. Under this business model it seems that EIR and other Lyn controlled outfits basically reap the benefits of having merchandise for nothing and making a good profit since there is no cost per unit and the help is almost free. After as much was siphoned off as possible you can blame it all on the boomers for not mailing anything out. When the IRS and vendors come knocking Lyn is nowhere on the premises.
I bet you yutes have no idea of how this works. What is real crazy is that for years the yutes were told that there was no money to pay them since the cult was spending a lot of money on printing. Ask to see the statements about how much money was either paid or owed to PMR yutes.
We can go on with this for a long time. In fact, there are plenty of mob stories involving Lyn and strange people forn Detroit and Boston. We even went to a loan shark while trying to "buy" the 1980 New Hampshire primary . Yutes, ask the legal staff for the transcripts from the trials where we flew a security guy to Boston each week with a ton of cash in brown paper bags to pay off someone for the loan.
Everything is an open book in the LC/LYM and I am certain that that these docs will be made available for your viewing. You can do that while seeing Gerry Rose.
xlcr4life@hotmail.com
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++** +++++++*******

The movie GoodFellas is based on the Wise Guy book I read years ago. If you ever go back and look at how locals were run and what the National Office did befofe leaving NYC you can see the same game plan. You run up debts and and right before you shkip town, you really g to town and leave a trail of bad debts and bounced cheks. We used to send members around the country to different locals if bill collectors were getting too nosy. Move someone across the country and have them open up new phone lines, utilities and get credit before chucking them off to another local.
In this MafiaCult model, Lyn does what most preindicted mobsters do in life. You live very nice yet have very little taxable income. You have no idea how those cars end up in your driveway with bodyguards or how the clothes fill your closets. Everything is a "gift" and instead of being a plumber or waste hauler exec you proclaim yourself as an "economist". Helga may be the one who has the goumada.
LYM and LYMettes, look up what the mafia word "babbo" means.
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

07-09-2008, 05:51 PM

earnest_one

Cons and Shakedowns Thanks for the encouragement Eaglebeak. I have my hands full now, don't have much more to add about some specific events, but will peruse my memory banks. Later, I still plan on presenting a concise, extremely accurate account of Winstar, LaRouche's LIES about it, and the motivations behind the lies.
That LL lies is hardly news or newsworthy. But the irony here is that Winstar was involved in many things, some speculative, but other parts pure INFRASTRUCTURE, vast INFRASTRUCTURE EXPANSION using truly interesting technology at the leading edges of science and technology. As usual, LL only presents part of a story. But some of the other part(s) completely contradict his assertions, and worse (for him) make him look like an uniformed fool, ranting against his own basic positions!
Note that one part of Winstar's "business was that they owned and distributed soft-core French porn, and other French movies. This started many, many years before the crash, and it probably produced a profit. Hilarious.
About Zeke, and quickly:
Robert McLaughlin was a TRULY extraordinary human being, who went out of his way to help people whenever he could. He could talk and talk (like any ex-LaRouchie) but he walked the walk in relation to the most important things a person can do in life.
His job put him in a position to help others. But he also had to be responsible (he had a conscience, a genuine conscience). Now, his modus operandi was to give people an opportunity, and then see what they did with it. The giving of opportunity is a blessing to those in need of opportunities, especially the opportunity of landing a good paying job. It is non-trivial blessing, especially if the opportunity did NOT require the usual prerequisites (some "stamp" like a degree, or some previous, solid, work history). In my view, this was unusual beyond measure especially in the corporate world. Nobody, other than the most powerful people around could get away with it (and Bob was not "powerful" in this sense). I have never met anyone who was more fair, more decent, more humane.
I only know one side of the story, but from many people and many angles. The claim was the Zeke PRESENTED himself to Bob as a Unix expert. At Winstar, Bob was the Senior Director of Systems Architecture and also, nominally, their Chief Scientist (due to his early work, as he was with them at the startup and made many fantastic contributions).
The System Group was HUGE, with many different areas. Systems Architecture was an extremely important component, especially for a growing company. Many of the most important problems at Winstar landed on Bob's shoulders, and he devised solutions, often brilliant ones, using his own mind, often in concert with a collection of very talented people.
But to get a job (either as an employee or as a consultant, which could lead, later, to becoming an employee) Bob first gave a person an opportunity (a task to do) and then evaluated the work. Work, in the corporate world is known as a "deliverable" – you have to produce something and deliver it, usually ON TIME and ON BUDGET, although both time and budget were often flexible, depending on the task. Systems Architecture was a forward looking group, devising plans for future developments.
Unix is vast operating system. Zeke was given a task. He delayed, and delayed, and delayed the deliverable. Bob was patient and kind and, I guess in this case, the budget and deadline was more flexible than usual or he was more flexible. Finally, when the pressure mounted to show SOME evidence of WORK, Zeke Boyd exposed himself as a complete fraud: He did NOTHING except steal money. Bob was incensed, furious, and Zeke was banished. The man did NOTHING, and collected money for it.
I don't know the exact figure, but it was thousands of dollars -- possibly ten thousand or more, and Bob was accountable for this. Contrary to popular opinion Winstar was NOT a free for all. Bob had a boss, and he had a position in the corporation that, by law, required him to be responsible. And he had a conscience, as mentioned earlier. So he was taken for a ride. It happens.
Sadly, however, this event made it more difficult for Bob to offer opportunities to others. Everyone, in principle (barring previous evidence), deserves an opportunity. What they DO with that opportunity is their COMPLETE responsibility, but it was the key component determining whether or not Bob could extend his goodwill. If you proved yourself, you got more work. If your work was poor, no more work came your way. If you were an employee and you engaged in fraud, you were fired, instantly.
Simple rules. Rational.
The Bruce Director shakedown was, in practice, far more disgusting than what Zeke did. It required a level of inhumanity that transcends time and space. I'll post more about this fairly soon.
Till then, I can say that, technically, Bob regarded Bruce Director's "work" (his writings and talks about math and physics) as typical LaRouchian drivel. Strings of words without any content, indicating NO understanding of the subject OR the ideas. None.
To be continued….

07-09-2008, 10:40 PM

localgreek

Bankruptcies

Thanks to all for the very informative posts. I have often thought that this cult functions like a mafia. I have heard stories that members, I guess the boomer generation, have in some cases, perhaps many, declared personal bankruptcy. Is there anyone who can address this issue? I suppose this means that the individuals would have taken out many loans and with no assets to repay, find themselves in a position where they have to legally declare they are bankrupt.
The other thing about white collar crime is that this is something that often needs reporting; so I suspect more of this will go on here unless this is reported to the authorities.

07-09-2008, 11:41 PM

borisbad

Speaking of Mafia and Goodfellas, the posts of xlcr4life and earnest_one remind me of the way that the Gottis would take bribes and some of the more humorous testimony that came out on the trial of Peter Gotti (John Gotti's not so smart brother) about sitting in a car and passing bribes back and forth with bags of cannolis. Of course, unlike most LYM and NCLC members, at least the Mafia did allow even the lower level mobsters to enjoy a relatively decent living (if not life span) in exchange for their practices of murder, robbery and extortion. I guess with Lyn, he eschewed the cannolis and went straight for the Rheingau.

07-10-2008, 09:44 PM

xlcr4life

1 Attachment(s)

Quote:
Originally Posted by localgreek
Thanks to all for the very informative posts. I have often thought that this cult functions like a mafia. I have heard stories that members, I guess the boomer generation, have in some cases, perhaps many, declared personal bankruptcy. Is there anyone who can address this issue? I suppose this means that the individuals would have taken out many loans and with no assets to repay, find themselves in a position where they have to legally declare they are bankrupt.
The other thing about white collar crime is that this is something that often needs reporting; so I suspect more of this will go on here unless this is reported to the authorities.

Localgreek, in a cult, normal rules and laws do not apply. The cult has a benign neglect policy if the debts become too great and the person becomes a pest so to speak. If the member leaves, then you high 5 each other, denounce him or her and tell eveyone why that person was so "blocked" or weak.
Other members will slowly find that they are caught in a mafia style run up of debts on their credit cards which can never be paid back since there is ALWAYS a mobilization underway. Car loans are eventually paid back, but that depends on the shape of the car and other factors. If the car is beaten to death, then you let the repo man take it or let the impound yard keep it. In a case I know of, you let it get "stolen".
Members who went to Leesburg took out home loans and you will find members who just rolled over one card into another and ended up with huge debts. The cult does not care since the survival of the Lyn overides the survival of any member. The only thing about the cult which is demoratic is that every member, regardless of rank gets screwed.
The LYM and LYMettes have a slightly different game played where they are so puched intop poverty that they often rely on their credit cards to stay alive. I can see Lyn having a gret laugh and toast to how he has the parents of the college drop outs footing the bills to feed them while he digs into a juicy roast.
Some members think that they can find a mate who can keep them afloat. Mike B would be still eating prison garb if his wife did not have some money from the parents according to many people who know them. Poor Marcia M thought she would have it easy by hooking up with enough doctors that I am surpised that she isn't dating a can of Dr Pepper. Life aint so easy on the mean streets of Leesburg.
I had yet abnother flashback ot the LC when my local paper pullout section had a big article on RhienGau. The current avg prices for Rhiengau the article mentioned are
Riesling - $12.99
Kabinet - $21.99
Spatlese - $31.99
Spatlese, that's the ticket! I am definately not a sommelier like Phil U who was at Lyn's beck and call, but I do remember hitting the liquor stores for a few cases of this for Lyn.
Amazing that one case of what I bought in the 1980s was the same as a daily stipend for 4 LCers. Lyn gave a while region per day what a case of his booze cost back then.
Take a gander at the Schiller Institute site for Gary Genazzio.
http://www.schillerinstitute.org/bio...riam/gary.html
This tells me that someone with some decency read what we have been posting here and made some changes. That also means what I and others have been saying all along, that members do not read the lunacy which the cult produces.
It also may mean that something may have happened over the circumstances involving the death of Gary Genazzio and John Morris which is not too pretty for the cult.
This is pure specualtion, but the cult does not do things becuase they are nice people. If I was the family of the two who died and was contemplating a lawsuit, I would include every single Larouche Operation there is. You see, this is not the case of people doiung something with their free will and independent of the controllers of their lives. Every bit of Gary Genazzio and Johnn Morris's life was determined by the cult via physical and mental control.
The choice of where to go, when to go, which car to take, how much money was allocated for the trip, the condition of the car, the allowed breaks, (you think the cult follows union and NHTSA and OSHA rules on the hours allowed to drive?) how much sleep they are allowed, how many days they are worked, when they can take off. This can go on for ever with so many factors which could have caused catastrophic failure do to operator exhaustion and/or error.
Did they make this drive to go siteseeing in Downtown Detroit or were they acting under the direction and umbrella of the cult? That trunk was not filled with beach gear to go see Michigan sand dunes. If someone I know was sent on a multi hundred mile trip with a LaroucheMobile and the circumstances we have guessed here, you would have a major lawsuit over working under these conditions.
You see LYM and LYMettes, in a cult, you do not even get the basic laws of human decency, protection and abuse to keep you safe.
Maybe you can dump bottles of Lyn's empty Rheingau in the fuel tank if you had a flex fuel vehicle .
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

07-10-2008, 11:24 PM

localgreek

a typical Larouche obituary-very sad indeed

xclr4life writes:
Take a gander at the Schiller Institute site for Gary Genazzio.
http://www.schillerinstitute.org/biographys/memorial/Gary_John/memoriam/gary.html
This tells me that someone with some decency read what we have been posting here and made some changes. That also means what I and others have been saying all along, that members do not read the lunacy which the cult produces.
It also may mean that something may have happened over the circumstances involving the death of Gary Genazzio and John Morris which is not too pretty for the cult.
+++++++++++++
Localgreek: I went to the link; and frankly, I was sickened; the whole obituary spoke about what he did for the cult; there was nothing there about his origins, his family, his background. It was as if all other aspects of a person's life were irrelevant for the Larouchies. Disgusting crew. He had a mother, he had a father. Who were they? Where did he grow up? All that counts is what he did for Larouche. It's true this obituary is a cut above the others, but it still stinks of the odor of the cult. How sad; how very very sad.

07-11-2008, 12:21 AM

borisbad

Quote:
Originally Posted by localgreek

xclr4life writes:
Take a gander at the Schiller Institute site for Gary Genazzio.
http://www.schillerinstitute.org/biographys/memorial/Gary_John/memoriam/gary.html
This tells me that someone with some decency read what we have been posting here and made some changes. That also means what I and others have been saying all along, that members do not read the lunacy which the cult produces.
It also may mean that something may have happened over the circumstances involving the death of Gary Genazzio and John Morris which is not too pretty for the cult.
=================
Localgreek: I went to the link; and frankly, I was sickened; the whole obituary spoke about what he did for the cult; there was nothing there about his origins, his family, his background. It was as if all other aspects of a person's life were irrelevant for the Larouchies. Disgusting crew. He had a mother, he had a father. Who were they? Where did he grow up? All that counts is what he did for Larouche. It's true this obituary is a cut above the others, but it still stinks of the odor of the cult. How sad; how very very sad.

It's definitely true that the epitaph is a lot more personal than what they gave to other "fallen heroes" and must have reflected some actual agonizing for some members. They didn't mention how he died of course while in the service of the one he apparently served so well.
It's a shame for this loss because looking on the artwork that he produced he was definitely extremely talented. As I mentioned once, I think he started out with Stan Lee and Marvel Comics before getting sucked into LaRouche's orbit. But it seems that there was still plenty of life in Gary that came out in the pictures and the reproductions of his artwork that hadn't been totally squelched. But the shameless opportunism of these guys really disgusts me. Thank heavens I didn't stick around long enough to be memorialized by what I did for LaRouche.

07-11-2008, 03:39 AM

earnest_one

No, No, No...

I did not get past the second paragraph of that "obit". Simply could not stomach it.
The tone from the beginning was disgusting, worse than I expected from some posts here.
I did not read any of the "Fallen Heroes" material, so I can't say if it is an improvement or not.
But it is pure STALINIST propaganda. Simply my opinion.
Please Lord: Stop the Insanity. No More Insanity. No, No, No...

07-11-2008, 04:44 AM

eaglebeak

The Obituary Writers

The authors of the obituary for Gary Genazzio are two Chicago lifers, Gerald and Mindy Pechenuk, who have been out there since the late 1970s or early 1980s. Mindy used to be a musician, recruited off some college campus in New York State, and Gerald recruited from New York City....
Anyhow, they went to Chicago a million years ago and stayed there through all sorts of permutations and combinations of cults and junior cults within the overriding LaRouche cult.
They stayed for the Dalto subcult, and the Sheila subcult, of which Mindy was a particularly enthusiastic epigone.
By now, they must be way beyond zombitude.
Poor Gary--hardly allowed his own life, in the maelstrom of LaRoucheness that swirls around Lyn and his thralls.
Interesting that Shelley's Ode to the West Wind has now become de rigeur for memorials, after it was read--by Ken Kronberg's request--at his funeral by his son.
The real thing Gary and Ken share is that they both embarrassed Lyn mightily, in the manners of their respective deaths.

07-11-2008, 11:52 AM

boomersage

The memorial piece about Gary Genazzio epitomizes a lot about the organization: a heartfelt tribute to one decent person's idealism coupled with the requisite bleatings about their lonely and valiant struggle against all tentacles of the Great Evil -- whatever those happen to be this month.

07-11-2008, 07:55 PM

earnest_one

Not Just Ken's Death

I never met either of the two fine folks who died recently. As far as I know, I never met Ken either, although I certainly met many people in high leadership positions, both here in the US and in Europe.
But... Gary did not simply stay after Ken's death, but AFTER the bizarre response to Ken's death: the late, self-serving obit, the attacks on Molly, the, the, the, the, the....
And why is Ken's death a demarcation point? What about Jeremiah Duggan? Or the host of others, tortured in various ways, all to keep LL and his close buddies amused while living a good life off of stolen money, other people's work, and other people's stolen lives.

07-12-2008, 05:03 AM

eaglebeak

The Demarcation Ken's death is a demarcation because it involved LaRouche so personally, so intimately, so disgracefully, and over such a long period of time, that there was no getting away from his involvement--and that of the entire NEC--even for the most loyal of members.
Those in Leesburg seeing the reaction of many members, including many still in today, know that Ken's death and everything surrounding it, including Molly's constant insistence that Lyn et al. killed him, was a devastating experience for many among the most loyal zombies.
After all, with Jeremiah Duggan and others, Lyn's direct involvement was not so egregious.
Remember, Ken was in Leesburg, meeting with the NEC on virtually a daily basis, one of the leading members in Leesburg, and his suicide constituted a total rejection of the org by one of its longest-serving leaders--a rejection precipitated by personal and vicious and totally lying attacks on him by LaRouche over a period of years, as everyone in the Leesburg org well knew.
That's why Nancy Spannaus said, when she called Molly the day after Ken's death, "I don't know if you ever want to see my face again." And, as everyone in the org now knows, the answer turned out to be "No." Molly did not want ever to see her face again.
To fend off charges from Molly and others, Lyn has concocted fantasies about Ken's committing suicide because Molly gave bucks to Bush, because Molly was the central and pivotal and utterly key figure in LaRouche's 1988 Alexandria trial, because Molly was a government agent since at least 1988....
Everyone knows it's all bilge. That's why Lyn in April, on the anniversary of Ken's death, took to raving about the Molly-coddlers still lurking in the interstices of the org.
Also, Ken's death and Molly's subsequent public behavior marked the first time a Labor Committee dropout, a former NC member, a former "LaRouche defendant" and LaRouche felon, took on LaRouche straight up and in her own name.
It's hard to overstate what a rupture was produced by Ken's death and its aftermath.
Remember, Jeremiah died thousands of miles away, and the U.S. LaRouche org didn't know him, and most LaRouche org members are wilfully ignorant about what happened, and they are determined to stay that way.
But Ken died right down the street, right there on Waxpool Road on overpass over Rte 28, right there next to PMR, and it was all shoved in the collective face of the Labor Committee in every possible way. And they all knew him, and they all knew Molly, and they all knew Max....
So it's not that Ken's death was more important than Jeremiah Duggan's--because Jeremiah Duggan's death was every bit as important as Ken's--it's that Ken's death was harder to cover up, lie about, sweep under the rug.

07-12-2008, 09:04 PM

earnest_one

Split Between US and European Org

Well pull, Eaglebeak. I think, however, that there is/was a large chasm between the US org and the European branches.
This may explain a lot.
From one point of view, each new rant by LL is a demarcation point as sane people think that NOW, FINALLY the madness will be seen by ALL, given that it is SO apparent. A demarcation poin.! Ongoing, apparently.
LaRoucheTruth used to post here all the time, examining in great detail LL's latest, and writing that LL had gone over the edge and that things were NOW different.
Apparently not.
In some circles, they call it "moving the goalposts forward (or backwards -- I'm not sure of the expression but I do know the goalposts get moved further AWAY from the workers).

07-12-2008, 11:15 PM

localgreek

demarcation lines

[QUOTE=earnest_one;356108]This may explain a lot.
From one point of view, each new rant by LL is a demarcation point as sane people think that NOW, FINALLY the madness will be seen by ALL, given that it is SO apparent. A demarcation poin.! Ongoing, apparently.
=============
Localgreek: I just want to say to you Earnest ONe that in your previous post you really hit the nail on the head; the whole structure is Stalinist--in every possible way: the lies, the deception, the priviledge of the inner circle; the propaganda; the shifting enemies; the terror by insult and denunciation. But in the USSR there was always a well established underground--economy, intellectual current, etc. You remember Samizdat. This of course because people could not get out. But here they can. They can like xclr4life save a few buck and head for the road. I genuinely do not understand how the hold is maintained; it is all so nuts. Is it like Borismaglev stated--they are neurologically damaged people who remain. This of course begs the question: who damaged them? and how?
As for demarcation lines, what you say is correct; the line shifts and has shifted; those who have remained after Ken have now accepted THAT reality in whatever twisted way; they have also accepted the road side deaths due of course to the negligence of the org. with regard to the well being of its members: life is cheap in Larouchburg. this is getting seriously dangerous and creepy. And I sure wish the authorities would somehow be able to be involved. Neither do I understand why the Democrats haven't in some way made a statement in order to distance themselves from this crew.

07-13-2008, 06:01 AM

earnest_one

European Exodus

Borismaglev,
I don't know what happened. Some say resignation, some say purge, some say it was a combination of the two.
I doubt it was connected with the Duggan case, per se, but I HOPE that it was, because this means that cracks had formed and people were/are scared and, finally, there is a possibility that the full truth will emerge about this horrible tragedy.
One thing I know from first hand experience, in Wiesbaden, in the late 70s. These guys and gals will threaten your life and/or the life of loved ones, then proceed to hold you "captive" for some period of time, sleep deprived, "working you over" (in my case, only psychologically) until you crack.
At the point of cracking (the peak of the infamous ego stripping sessions) you bond in some bizarre way with the people torturing you (Stockholm syndrome cubed) and then your are under their control.
I was/am a tough cookie, and I happened to be experienced and so I ended up cracking them, one by one (in a sense, it was hilarious to see this tough guys crumble).
My first point was that if they were so wonderful, and had such good intelligence and were going to save the world, then a reasonable person would conclude, based on the evidence, that they MIGHT be a group to join (if one were interested in joining up with others to change the world).
But exerting extreme pressure and doing it in such a bizarre way would NOT be needed if they were actually who they said they were.
So I cracked them as frauds, and made clear that the more pressure they exerted, the more they exposed themselves as frauds and likelihood of my joining them would go to zero.
Like most salesmen, they did not have the intelligence to see/understand who they were dealing with, and simply thought that brute force would really work. Simply apply more and more and the potential customer (recruit) will crack and open up their wallet and buy (or join up and ruin their life).
But I split them many ways.
Again, I know nothing of an inside nature about Jeremiah Duggan, EXCEPT that if he was exposed to one tenth of what they did to me, then the proper and reasonable thing would be to run like the wind. Perhaps he was running away in a state of terror and tried to flag down cars, because he felt in mortal danger.
Or, perhaps some zealots of LL, took it into their own hands to beat him up beforehand.
Or, perhaps, LL ordered a beating, to get publicity and prove that he was a TRUE neo-Nazi group. That they new about the Tavistock connection is very suspicious. Perhaps he was set up.
If Jeremiah was sleep deprived, then his running, although reasonable, might not have been safe, because you lose your "senses" and perceptual acumen after sleep depriviation. Perhaps he misjudged the cars that hit him.
If the zealots beat him up then this sort of thing should have been investigated with a fine tooth comb and further LL meetings across the Globe should have been "supervised" by the appropriate authorities, who could guarantee the safety of possible volunteers (and make sure they were actually joining on their own, using free will and not threats and/or exhaustion).
If LL ordered a beating, then he is was we ALREADY know he is: An Evil Stalinist Pig who should be brought to justice before the World Court (as Erica Duggan is so courageously fighting to bring about).
Again, I know nothing about the sudden disappearance of the entire German leadership and other Euro elements of the org. I wish that someone in Europe would openly state their connection to the situation there and shed light on these boards about what truly happened. It is easier now, because your IP address is not displayed (as it was with the old software) so it is far safer to speak out.
If there is hard evidence about the Duggan affair -- evidence that implicates them in anything untoward, including sleep deprivation then Houston, we have a problem.
They tried to get my passport when I arrived in Wiesbaden -- wanted to hold onto it for my safety, for safekeeping. I told them that they were crazy, that there was NO way I would let go of my passport, not have it on me, while in a foreign country! They put pressure on me and I simply turned it around to show that if they were suggesting something reasonable, then the pressure should NOT be needed; the intrinsic logic of their argument should win out (assuming, of course, that I responded to reason).
Thanks, by the way, LocalGreek, for the comments/recognition.

07-16-2008, 09:24 PM

xlcr4life

The question was raised about the difference between the death of Jeremiah Duggan and the death of Ken Kronberg for the US cult. In the USA, the news was kept from members as I had people tell me that I was making this all up./ The old site for the cult was called "theacademy2004.com" and was shut down soon after questions about Duggan were raised on their forums. The cult then opened up a forum on yahoo grooups called "antidummies" which is still active and boasts hundreds of spam posts as that too was abandoned. In addition, dozens of posts about the cult and duggan as well as fun stuff from me was erased from the site.
One of the posts erased was a command issued from Lyn via the moderator that no member was to talk about the Duggan death, period. A german member posted that we
"were innocent"
which is about all the cult had to say. She did leave this post # 232 on April 8, 2004.
"Sorry guys if I don´t respond to you immediately about this suicide
story. You might understand, that I don´t feel really secure to talk
about it here, so if you want to know more, send an email {directly}
to me. I prefer it that way than over this system. Maybe it is
foolish and you can convince me of the opposite. If not - just do as
I said.Thanks."

What this all means is that for the US members, this was a verboten subject with the usual line of how it is all made up and slander. This led to Harley giving a briefing one night from the LA office that the whole story was a hoax created by the British to stop Lyn from winning the 2004 election!
Ken Kronberg's suicide meant more to older members as the LYM was set up as the usual dictator sub group to be kept away from the older members and then supercede them. In my adventures on the two LYM forums I found that all LC history was either erased or rewritten whick often led to hysterically funny arguments from LA LYM members who said I made up the quotes I was using from the PDF campaigners on their own LYM web site!
For his contact with me, LA member Ed Park was sent to do walking tours in bad areas according to other LYM members who emailed me that he was assaulted and beaten pretty badly. No more computer time for Ed Park.
Besides dozen of posts being yanked on antidummies and the entire academy2004 site being shuit down, the cult recently erased every single post on the MichiganLYM yahoo group site as well.
I took a look at the Schiler Institute web site obit on Gary Genazzio and see that they added a photo gallery.
http://www.schillerinstitute.org/biographys/memorial/Gary_John/memoriam/gary_pix.html
LYM and LYMettes, let me explain this all to you. This whole production is for your benefit to keep you in the cult. A person reading this would have the impression that Gary Genazzio persued his dreams of being a painter and lived a glorious life of creativity and love with not single question raised about if he was in a cult and just blew 35 years of his life. Gary Genazzio lived an illusion which he never left to see from the outside. He spent 35 years in this lunacy and accepted every crazy thing which came along with hardly a whimper, which is what a cult loves best about you. Did Gary spend his days painting or did he spend his days and nights raising money for Lyn's fabulous lifestyle?
Gary joined 35 yerars ago in 1973. That means that he went through mop up, and found nothing wrong.
He went through the whole brainwashing farce with Chris White and Cuban frog man, and found nothing wrong, even when the "victim" left the LC and said it was all a crock.
He went through the dirty tricks we did on Dems while parading as Dems.
He went through the fundraising which led to prison time and never objected to it as far as I can tell. He accepted the stories of how we were innocent and Lyn was a political prisoner.
He went through seeing most of the LC just quit and leave and kept on being a field hand who when the cult needed something painted, he was allowed to do that and shuttled back to the fields.
He went thorugh the death of Duggan and the death of Kronberg as well as the death of numerous other members , still worshipping Lyn .
In the world of the cult LYM and LYMettes, he was worthy of praise and is the role model for you to follow for another 3 or 4 decades so when you are past social security taking age, you too will never question and just be busy raising money. A few times a year you may be in a play or sing in a choir, but for the most part, prisoners in China will be better off then you and will eventully be freed.
In Chicago there was a story about some theft of funds. Many years ago Shiela Jones was a big cheese and was tight with Helga. Somehow, some cash was allocated to Chicago for some "creative" work. It seems that the only thing which was creative was the bookeeping. Ask some oldtimers about what happened to Shiela and Terry Jones physical and mental health and where they are today.
If Gary Genazzio and John Morris were alive today, they would be organizing aorund this headline by Nancy Spannaus in the new EIR.

This article appears in the July 18, 2008 issue of Executive Intelligence Review.
Pelosi Is Covering Up for 'Money-Changers in the Temple'
by Nancy Spannaus
Gary Genazzio and John Morris would also be saying this about Nancy Pelosi at their card table shrines.
"Pelosi has run a fraudulent side-show, to protect the speculators, and this is more than reason can tolerate," LaRouche charged. "She should be sent back to housekeeping, to defend the honor of all women"
LYM and LYMettes, ask yourself what group of people are associated with "Money Changers in the Temple" and the historical role in using this?
Here is something to think about from
http://www.bibleinterp.com/articles/bergen_033001.htm
Whether the context was secular or religious, biblical allusions in the Third Reich were rarely neutral. They bound Jews to negative stereotypes based on accounts, retold and retooled, from the Bible. In the hands of German gentiles, the stories of the golden calf and the money changers in the temple turned into illustrations of "Jewish materialism." Cain became the accursed, wandering Jew. The gospels, especially John, provided antisemitic vocabulary and images that were by no means reserved for professing Christians. Secular Nazis and neopagans too called Jews "whitewashed sepulchers," "vipers," and "Pharisees."
Use of such images joined decidedly anti-Christian voices with others from within the churches. Alfred Rosenberg dubbed the Old Testament a collection of "stories of pimps and cattle traders"; but the high school religion teacher and German Christian agitator Reinhold Krause earned "sustained applause" in November, 1933, when he repeated that phrase at a rally of twenty thousand people. Like Rosenberg, Krause viewed "liberation from the Old Testament" as part of the current assault on Jews in Germany: "If we National Socialists are ashamed to buy a tie from a Jew," he told his audience, "how much more should we be ashamed to accept from the Jew anything that speaks to our soul, to our most intimate religious essence?"
Oh, you can continue with Lyn's misogyny as well
"She should be sent back to housekeeping, to defend the honor of all women."
Start making your scrap book album today for your very own Schiller Intitute obit page so you do not end up like a John Morris and countless others.
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

07-17-2008, 02:39 AM

candor

Creativity

Not to needlessly denigrate the work of the deceased (de mortuis, nil nisi bonum), but it must be observed that Genazzio's paintings are either copies of other paintings or exercises in hero worship. All of this goes to demonstrate once again that it is strictly - almost apodictically - IMPOSSIBLE to have one SINGLE creative idea while in the orbit of the LaRouche cult, let alone to forge a solitary creative path. The minimalism of Agnes Miller would be verboten as an artistic stepping stone, the poetics of Hart Crane or George Oppen, likewise. And as LaRouche himself is surrendering all pretense of staying on top of things by issuing these sick-bed whoppers devotedly recorded by the youthful amanuenses the near-cadaver is doing his best to rob of a future, no one is permitted any room at all for original investigation, unless it be some trivial exercise in continually reinventing the wheel under the rubric of accessing someone's creative process. Creativity starts the moment one says, what would happen if I did this? That's it, kids. If you develop the habit of taking nothing for granted and learn to see and you have only at least sub-average intelligence you can't help but not be "creative." :)

07-17-2008, 01:17 PM

borisbad

Quote:
Originally Posted by candor

Not to needlessly denigrate the work of the deceased (de mortuis, nil nisi bonum), but it must be observed that Genazzio's paintings are either copies of other paintings or exercises in hero worship. All of this goes to demonstrate once again that it is strictly - almost apodictically - IMPOSSIBLE to have one SINGLE creative idea while in the orbit of the LaRouche cult, let alone to forge a solitary creative path. The minimalism of Agnes Miller would be verboten as an artistic stepping stone, the poetics of Hart Crane or George Oppen, likewise. And as LaRouche himself is surrendering all pretense of staying on top of things by issuing these sick-bed whoppers devotedly recorded by the youthful amanuenses the near-cadaver is doing his best to rob of a future, no one is permitted any room at all for original investigation, unless it be some trivial exercise in continually reinventing the wheel under the rubric of accessing someone's creative process. Creativity starts the moment one says, what would happen if I did this? That's it, kids. If you develop the habit of taking nothing for granted and learn to see and you have only at least sub-average intelligence you can't help but not be "creative." :)

Candor may be onto something. The problem that he addresses is similar to what happened in the Soviet Union under Stalin where artists, musicians and writers degenerated from exploring new forms of expression to adopting Soviet Realism and making art and literature subservient to a political agenda.

07-17-2008, 09:50 PM

earnest_one

Devolved "The NCLC has devolved into a non-creative bureaucracy."
Robert McLaughlin (former NCLC member) circa 1997

07-18-2008, 12:34 AM

localgreek

Quote:
Originally Posted by borisbad

Candor may be onto something. The problem that he addresses is similar to what happened in the Soviet Union under Stalin where artists, musicians and writers degenerated from exploring new forms of expression to adopting Soviet Realism and making art and literature subservient to a political agenda.

+++++++++++++++++++++
Localgreek: in the USSR--under Lenin and Stalin and after too-- they wanted to create a Homo Sovieticus; Larouche wants to create a HOMO Larouchicus. LL's is also a totalitarian dream. The human being in the org. must be just a small cell in the larger organism, which he fashions. The Soviet state's overriding goal was to turn human raw material into passive cogs in the machine. LL does the same.

07-18-2008, 04:17 AM

boomer70

the comments about art in the soviet union are political opinion. i thought we were going to avoid such.

07-18-2008, 12:15 PM

localgreek

Quote:
Originally Posted by boomer70
the comments about art in the soviet union are political opinion. i thought we were going to avoid such.

++++++++++++++++++++++++
Localgreek: in defense of Borisbad and Candor, it is important to recall that the comments about art in the Soviet Union are in fact NOT "political opinion" as you suggest. It was Zhdanov who initiated in 1934 at the Congress of Soviet Writers that Socialist Realism was to be adopted as the official art form that Soviet artists must adhere to. This was approved by Stalin, Bukharin, and Gorky too.
The art had to serve the "proletariat" by being laudatory of the socialist plan. Thus you have many paintings and films and poems praising industrialization, collectivization and Stalin the inaugurator of this. All forms of experimentalism was deemed bourgeois and decadent and degenerate. All works which depicted the true and devastating destructive reality of these experiments was supressed. It was only in the time of Khrushchev that One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich came out, and initially only in newspaper segments.
Here is a quote from one source:
"Experimental and non-conformist writers such as Yevgeni Zamyatin, Isaac Babel, Boris Pilnyak, Nickolai Tikhonov, Mikhail Slonimski, Vsevolod Ivanov, Victor Serge, Vladimir Mayakovsky, Sergei Yesenin, Konstantin Fedin, Victor Shklovsky, Mikhail Zoshchenko and Alexander Solzhenitsyn suffered under this policy. Zamyatin and Serge managed to leave the country, whereas Mayakovsky and Yesenin committed suicide. Writers who refused to change, such as Babel and Pilnyak, were executed or died in labour camps."
The writer of the above also forot many other names, particularly such eminent writers as Anna Akhmatova and Mandelshtam, who were deemed not politically correct and suffered excruciably.
I believe that Borisbad and Candor were trying to understand the LL phenomenon and connect it to its source.

07-18-2008, 06:39 PM

socialistboomer

"Stalinism" and LaRouche

It's one thing to note resemblances between Stalinism and LaRoucheland. But it's a big leap to regard Stalinism as "the source." I can think of numerous political and religious groups that have demanded total obeisance to the leader; regarded the leader as infallible; severely restricted acceptable forms of followers' artistic, political and sexual expression; ostracized, slandered and punished ex-believers and alleged heretics; fabricated conspiracies; etc., etc. These may be characteristics of "Stalinism' -- but not necessarily the source.
For those interested in matters raised by localgreek, especially the statement concerning Bukharin, I urge you to read Bukharin's address to the Writers Congress, "Poetry, Poetics and the Problems of Poetry in the U.S.S.R." While Bukharin made the obligatory nods to the line of the CPSU, his speech skewered its cultural approach. In discussing Soviet poetry, he said that he would only refer to Russian poetry because there were many Soviet languages that he did not know. He then pointedly added: "I know there are some amateurs who pass judgment on everything." Bukharin went on to defend Soviet romantic poets, including some whose political views had never been congruent with those of the Communist Party.
Was Stalin the source of LaRouchemania? Was Jim Jones? I just don't find this approach illuminating.

07-18-2008, 07:42 PM

eaglebeak

Source?

I don't think it was claimed that Stalin or Stalinism was the source of any LaRouche-related phenomenon.
I think the two phenomena--cults of the personality--were being analogized. The source of megalomania may be neurological, or psychological, but is always somehow sui generis--LaRouche is not a nut because Stalin was a nut, he is a nut in the same way that Stalin was a nut, but with far, far less ability to impose his will.
Now, it is perfectly true that unlike Stalin and Hitler and a number of other people that someone like Thomas Carlyle might call "great bad men," LaRouche could never get anywhere close to power, and couldn't mobilize a a troop of penguins to follow him across the ice.
In that sense, Stalin and LaRouche are poles--light years--apart.
But the effects on those trapped in LaRouche's orbit, however few those people be, is in some ways comparable to the effects of those trapped in Stalin's orbit. The difference is that if Stalin noticed you, he killed you--he killed all the Old Bolsheviks because they knew him too well and knew too much and had expertise and were threats.
LaRouche, however, only WISHES he could kill you, and only WISHES he could kill all the Boomers, for their knowledge and their sardonic eye and their expertise and their threat.
Only occasionally does LaRouche actually manage to kill someone--Ken Kronberg, for instance.
But believe me, he has the same murderous impulses we have seen in the Moscow Trials, the Maoist Cultural Revolution (remember? When the youth took over, the elders were driven out to the countryside, the universities closed?), and of course, the foul anti-Semitisim, obscene and violent, of a Julius Streicher.
This is not political comment, it's psychoanalytical comment.

07-18-2008, 09:12 PM

earnest_one

Agreed Eaglebeak wrote:
"This is not political comment, it's psychoanalytical comment."
Indeed! And bravo too.

07-18-2008, 11:11 PM

poe

Quote:
Originally Posted by eaglebeak

I don't think it was claimed that Stalin or Stalinism was the source of any LaRouche-related phenomenon.


Yes it was! It certainly seemed to me like that was exactly what localgreek was saying. Localgreek, am I wrong?

07-18-2008, 11:34 PM

poe

Schiller not Stalin is the Culprit.

I disagree with those posters who are blaming Stalin and Socialist Realism for the Labor Committees tendency in recent years to use "Art" merely as a vechicle for propaganda. LaRouche has denounced "Socialist Realism" over and over again. He used to denounce (back in the Beyond Psych period) as banal and didactic any attempt to use Art as a vechicle for literal political messages. The real subject of "Revolutionary" Art was the "unspoken", the "inbetweenness", the "irony", or creativity itself. This is back when the ICLC was promoting Shelley, Poe, and Heine as great poets. Then, all of a sudden, they started pushing Schiller, whose plays and poems did promote some very lofty ideas, but in a literal way that the LC previously used to deny was Art. Will Wertz and his imitators started to produce "Art" that mimicked Schillers literal and didactic use of "Republican" ideas. This was not the "Socialist Realism" that Lyn correctly denounced and that some here incorrectly link with him. The Schillerian ideas are far superior to Stalin's , but despite that fact, neither set of political ideas should ever be the explicit, literal, subject of true Art. If it is literal, it isn't Art. Stalin never understood that. The Labor Comiittees, at one point, did understand.

07-19-2008, 01:06 AM

localgreek

Quote:
Originally Posted by ’‘‘socialistboomer'''

+..... These may be characteristics of "Stalinism' -- but not necessarily the source.
Was Stalin the source of LaRouchemania? Was Jim Jones? I just don't find this approach illuminating.

+++++++++++++++++++++
Localgreek: To Socialist Boomer: I don't know which Writer's Congress you are referring to. If you can give me the date, I would appreciate it. The only point that I was making was that EVEN a writer like Gorky adopted Socialist Realism, and SO DID Bukharin, who was on the right wing of Stalin, but who was the most miserable sycophant; holy Toledo—get that note he wrote Stalin when the latter was after his head. A mediocrity; no valor. Not a Mandleshtam. (see exactly what I wrote please in that previous post.)
I have not yet had a look at Stephen Cohen's book on Bukharin. I am somewhat surprised by what you say about Bukharin's position on the nationalities issue (you say he raised at a Congress??) because he thought national rights were incompatible with internationalism and thought there was a contradiction in Lenin's position. Well, so he liked the 19th c. Not just the Romantics either. It is true he hated the 'peasants' less than did Lenin and Stalin. But more on Bukharin at a later point.
To Eagelbeak: Bless you dear soul for understanding the thrust of my post.
Candor wrote about "creativity" and said it was "impossible to have a single creative idea while in the orbit of the Larouche cult." (I agreed with this because from my inexperienced vantage point everything has to filter through how LL thinks and the membership seem really like parrots, repeating and doing as the great Lord says. Didn't LL talk about making people in his image—I thought I read that somewhere.
Then Borisbad brought up Socialist Realism.
After that Boomer70 said: "the comments about art in the Soviet union are political opinion."
Here is where I came in; Socialist Realism is not a political opinion. I wanted to raise this. But I also wanted to support Candor and Borisbad and agree that there is a horrid whiff of similarity between Stalinism and Larouchism. Eagelbeak so intelligently understood this; of course here in the US it ain't so easy to just line up people and shoot them as those Commies did.
So I was making two points:
1) what took place in the USSR (with regard to art--and for that matter anything)was not "political opinion."
2) And there are (I disagree with you Socialist Boomer) analogies to be made between LL and Stalinism—and on many levels. And those of you who were in this "org." know this better than I do.

07-19-2008, 02:07 AM

candor

It seems to me that the foundational organizational dynamic in the LaRouche cult beginning in the late sixties was supplied by his aping of Leninist methods (e.g., "the vanguard of the working class.") This was soon overlaid with a patina of paramilitary tomfoolery, a relic of which today remains in calling street organizing teams "squads."
As far as Art is concerned, I think Poe is right on target in singling out Schiller as a major source of contemporary LaRouchite agitprop, especially Helga's treacle-dipped Schiller. There's no question that Schiller's was a noble spirit, but Goethe, Heine, and Trakl are far finer poets, in my estimation. It is well known that LaRouche was moved by both Goethe and Heine. He was especially fond of Goethe's "Prometheus" the last stanza of which, now read in the context of the horrific LaRouche cult, is chilling (Prometheus is addressing Zeus):
Hier sitz' ich, forme Menschen
Nach meinem Bilde,
Ein Geschlecht, das mir gleich sei,
Zu leiden, zu weinen,
Zu genießen und zu freuen sich,
Und dein nich zu achten,
Wie ich!
Here I sit, forming men
In my image,
A race to resemble me:
To suffer, to weep,
To enjoy, to be glad--
And never to heed you,
Like me!
So Schiller may not be alone to blame. Nor Jessie.

07-19-2008, 02:34 AM

eaglebeak

Yes, Lyn has spoken of making or remaking people in his image. Lyn is a Promethean in the root sense of a Luciferian--the "light bearer" who epitomizes hubris and defies heaven.
From a Jewish or Christian standpoint, such an outlook is not just a sin, but the sin--and Lyn, with his bilge about the "third trial of Socrates" and his "I Become a Martyr" batsola paper of 1988 and all the rest has made it plain that he has left Stalin, Lenin, and Luxemburg in the dust long since, in his quest to take on God.
A number of us--including Ken Kronberg, please note--used to joke about Lyn saying to God, "the universe isn't big enough for the two of us."
It is vitally important to Lyn to challenge God and storm heaven--and the poor benighted vicious old sap thinks he's the man to do it. And the poor pit creatures who live in The Basement think so too.
It is absolutely the case that if Lyn had ever had the power--thank God, he was too inept ever to amass it--heads would have rolled. He has the hatred, rage, and fear needed to motivate purges, just not the strong right arm to carry them out.

07-19-2008, 03:11 AM

earnest_one

Identity Crisis The only one who "takes on God" is Satan.
Lyn is simply confused. You cannot be God AND Satan simultaneously.
He is split, right down the middle, inside his own head.

07-19-2008, 08:39 AM

xlcr4life

Quote:
Originally Posted by ’‘‘socialistboomer'''

It's one thing to note resemblances between Stalinism and LaRoucheland. But it's a big leap to regard Stalinism as "the source." I can think of numerous political and religious groups that have demanded total obeisance to the leader; regarded the leader as infallible; severely restricted acceptable forms of followers' artistic, political and sexual expression; ostracized, slandered and punished ex-believers and alleged heretics; fabricated conspiracies; etc., etc. These may be characteristics of "Stalinism' -- but not necessarily the source........Was Stalin the source of LaRouchemania? Was Jim Jones? I just don't find this approach illuminating.

I must say that I am enjoying reading the different views here as it is a refreshing exercise compared to life in the LC/LYM. After I left the LC decades ago I stumbled upon books on cults and find that the same methodology is employed by many cults be they tiny sects to large operations. In addition, exiting the LC/LYM will make your senses a bit more sensative to employers and other situations which are run along the same lines as a cult of personality.
The gimmicks may change, but the show is still the same. I offer this on the question of LC/LYM artistic ventures.
I tend to think that just about everything presented to you is done for a reason. Maybe not directly in cause, but part of the dynamics of a cult based on the requirements at the moment and the overlying need to recruit and retain people of a certain type.
Not everyone will be knowledgable about every single thing presented, but like a shotgun, you can hit some targets while missing a lot. In my case I think back to the cover of the Fusion campaigner which featured the William Blake painting. At that moment the technical aspects of fusion were one thing if you wished to learn about it. Indeed, I was aware of fusion technology from reading popular science journals at the time years before I met the LC. What was presented by the LC as I rememebr was a quasi Marxist hybrid of Man overtaking God and developing the universe. A sort of structure where Man and by default the LC, become "God Like" and solve all of humanities problems in a single day. The tone of many classes I attended were all negative about religion and placed us above that where no one was an expert on everything except Lyn was the closest man to perfection.
This seemed odd to me at the time, but, I did not see pictures of Lyn everywhere as I would have expected of a cult or small sect. The working knowledge of cults at the time was very limited and of the belief that only dummies joined cults, which one will find out is not the case.
Think back to what was presented as "artistic" and you will find that it always coincided with whatever new direction Lyn was setting the LC towards. The art, music and poetry was not for your enjoyment, but to slyly get you to accept what was coming. The enjoyment part was to me the equivalent of giving a dehyrdated prisoner a few ounces of water to get cooperation to some mythical nirvana we were all going to be running when the LC, later Lyn became the boss of bosses. We were to be the new Elites in this fantasy world and we would finally free humanity of the ugly art, bad poetry and Satainc music which was being used to run the masses.
The only thing right about this was that those things were used to run the LC. Did anyone think that it was odd that at the saem time we are now glorifying Germans that we are also distributing hundreds of thousands of pieces of lit with Lyn's Holocaust revisions and celebrating Nazi rocket scientists? Gary Genazzio painted a picture of Patton I believe in his obit. Dou you all remember that Will Weertz would read from Patton and people were busy reading Patton's bio and clamoring to see the movie at the time?
Did it ever occur to anyone back then that Will and the LC wanted you to be "Patton Like" by NOT assaulting Nazis, but assaulting our supporters to fight them for every dime with our promisorry note hustles?
Will and Lyn yelled "Charge" and we certainly did charge our supporters credit cards.
In our publications we were on a kick about early American painters for a while. Does anyone here know that there was a multi millionaire who had a gallery of this stuff in her large house up the Hudson river and she was related to one of the featured artists? We had Schiller Institute events in her gallery and were trying to get her friends to call for money. How about Pepper Fine Arts? Do you know how much money we were trying to get in selling art work to our supporters with PFA as the middle man? Did you know that the Peppers had a luxury Manhattan apt which was where we took our supporters to view artwork we were pushing at the time?
For many members, their short time spent in rehersals was about the only thing which made life tolerable. I was a wise ass and would ask leaders how come we are a pro art and music group of people who keep everyone from being able to get days off to go listen or look at this fine collection of available works.
The key thing is to make it clear to the members that the outside world was corrupt. No one except the LC and Lyn could interpret or listen and read the way we did. Lyn became an authority on the arts and if you read what we actually wrote, there was an endless list of directors, performers, artists and whatnot who were all inferior. Except if they supported Lyn. We never had a single word about ballet except when Gelsey Kirkland had some words about Helga and the Schiller Insitute in her autobiography.
Who the hell ever read about the brilliance of Robert Beltran as an actor until he called and gave some bucks to Lyn's campaign?
Think about what we performed at 1980s national conferences like Tambourlane and The tragedy of the Rich Jew of Malta. Ever wonder why Jewish members in the late 1970s were being asked to read "Perfidy"?
When LYM and LYMettes are being sent out to sing for spare change , get a few bucks a day and sleep 4 to a room, is it any wonder that they start the day off singing old Negro Slave Spirituals in the local clubhouse/soup kitchen.
Gary Genazzio has a lot more talent than I have in painting. My best work is usually with Behr paints on a wall in my home. But what did Gary Genazzio do in 35 years of service to Lyn? He painted the side of a truck, some scenery and several portraits of whatever the LC was into a the time.
Could Gary Genazzio been a far better artist is he stuck with the great Stan Lee or attended artist forums, galleries, education and had the freedom to do that? He was not an artist in the LC, He worked the fields and the boiler rooms for over 35 years and was allowed to persue his interests only when Lyn's interests were met.
I have some numbers to show you just how sick this is later.
Over the years I have spoken to many memebrs who were also field hands, boiler room callers and in leadership positions. Just about every one has had a hell of a good life with many achieving success and positions never envisioned in the LC. Does the LC and LYM stifle creativity? I should say so when you look into what many former members are doing. In the LC you automatically have a disorder where you are incapable of looking or observing anyhting without Lyn's lunacy ringing in your head. "Oh, this is British". it takes a while to get this crap out of you.
The best case I can make for what Genazzio could have been is with a former member named Dan Wasserman. I do not know him and maybe met him once at a NYC conf in the 1970s. He left the LC around 1977, a few years after Gary Genazzio joined.
http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/dan_wasserman_cartoonist/
"Wasserman joined the Globe in 1985. He is syndicated in 40 papers in the U.S., Latin America, and Europe, and is the author of two books, "We've Been Framed" (Faber & Faber) and "Paper Cuts" (Ivan R. Dee, 1995). Wasserman has a BA from Swarthmore College and studied at The Arts Students League of New York"
http://cartoonbox.slate.com/danwasserman/
Meet Dan Wasserman
Dan Wasserman of The Boston Globe is one of America's most refreshing editorial cartoonists. His visual skits-sharp, sly, humorous and memorable, choreographed in one to six frames-show no mercy.
The Wasserman voice and striking style stem from his interest in the vocabulary of politics, politicians and public figures. "The English language," he notes, "is usually one of the first casualties of misguided policies. When the characters in my drawings speak, I try to give them a more accurate teleprompter to read from."
He approaches most issues from the left, but doesn't hesitate to go after the liberals. Says Wasserman, "Their dearth of new ideas with which to challenge the conservatives is one of my favorite targets."
His cartoons, distributed by Tribune Media Services three times a week-sometimes with a bonus fourth-appear in such newspapers as The Washington Post, Los Angeles Times, Chicago Tribune, Baltimore Sun, The Seattle Times, Philadelphia Inquirer, Cleveland Plain Dealer, San Francisco Examiner and Dallas Times Herald.
His cartoons also have been frequently featured in national publications, including Time, Newsweek, the Economist and The New York Times' Sunday "Week in Review," and on the MacNeil Lehrer "NewsHour" and other TV network news programs. He is the author of We've Been Framed! (Faber & Faber, 1987), a collection of his cartoons covering President Reagan's two terms in office.
Wasserman, who drew for The Washington Star before he joined the Globe in 1985, is a native of New Haven, Conn. While attending Swarthmore College he began writing and drawing for campus publications, then went on to study at the Art Students League in New York while teaching college-level English.
He lives in Boston.
Provided by Tribune Media Services
http://www.boston.com/news/specials/year_in_review/2006/wasserman_gallery/
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/gallery/DanWasserman/
LYM and LYMettes, ask Barbara about a car ride Zeke and Gus were in with him.
The art, music, poetry is just like the history, science and math in the cult. It is there for a reason which has more to do with maintaining a cult of personality then for you to enjoy life by learning and discussing. All the roads lead to Lyn, including the ones you run out of gas on.

Next, we will review just what Gary Genazzio was worth to Lyn using a spread sheet. Pay attention LYM and LYMettes, Bruce Director should use this as a crucial experiment in his AntiDummies series for you.
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

07-19-2008, 09:29 AM

shadok

1 Attachment(s) creativity and freedom

Quote:
Originally Posted by eaglebeak

I think the two phenomena--cults of the personality--were being analogized. The source of megalomania may be neurological, or psychological, but is always somehow sui generis--LaRouche is not a nut because Stalin was a nut, he is a nut in the same way that Stalin was a nut, but with far, far less ability to impose his will.

I totally agree with you.
The only analogy between LL and Stalin, Hitler or Mao is that of a "cult of personality". Political cults could/should be considered as "dictatorships in miniature". Hence LL as a "small-time Hitler" (or Mao, or Stalin, whatever...)
As for the discussion on Art and Creativity... (or Science and Creativity), there is no creativity without freedom of the mind. Therefore there is no creativity (in art or science) in dictatorships or cults. Period.
Let's compare the race for atomic bomb during ww2. The Americans discovered it first because it is a free country. The Nazis didnt because "science was politicized" "Politicization of academia under the National Socialist regime had driven many physicists and mathematicians out of Germany as early as 1933. Furthermore, the politicization, along with the demands for armed manpower, had managed to nearly eliminate a generation of physicists." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_nuclear_energy_project Same thing under Stalin. "Nuclear physics was not strong in the country, as much of the ideology of the Soviet Union revolved around science for primarily practical and industrial applications. Fearing the possibility of something like Lysenkoism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysenkoism in physics, Soviet physicists, led by Abram Ioffe, had attempted to emphasize their commitment to strengthening the Soviet economy and industry, and were purposefully avoiding lines of research which could be accused of being too "theoretical" and "impractical," which is what nuclear physics was generally perceived to be in the 1920s and early 1930s." It's called in the org., the "political line"... (or the "Laws of the Universe", that is Larouche's...)
The same thing with Art.
Under the Nazi regime it was called "Entartete Kunst" (Degenerate Art) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degenerate_art
that is, everything that was "modern"... i.e. new, creative... was "degenerate"... Rings a bell?
Creativity and dictatorship are incompatible, because creativity requires freedom of the mind.
The LCs who have some artistic inclination and skills can find their niche within the cult, like some oxygen that helps them to survive.
I remember a LC member in France who paints, that is copies "old masters" with sometimes a twist like including LL's face... He has spent - so far - 3 decades of his precious life selling newspapers in the streets. How pathetic?
Art, especially music, is utilized by the cult. As a LYM you are expected to sing Bach, but never to compose like him (or try to). Of course, never ever consider pop/rock/rap/r&b, it's all "Entartete Kunst"!
LL picked music because this is the only thing he likes, art wise, to condition you. It's a typical cult technique.
There is a difference between artistic skills and creativity. Skills, talents are only means.
Art in the LC is all self-delusion; the illusion of freedom, not freedom.
As a Larouchie, the only way to be "creative" is the leave the cult.
In fact, once you become really creative, you have de facto left the org. because the cult is in your head. Nowhere else.

07-19-2008, 04:23 PM

realme

ex-member's accomplishments For another example of an ex-member actually accomplishing something in the realm of art (specifically poetry), see
http://claudiagary.home.att.net/
http://www.blehert.com/guest/gpgary.html
http://www.expansivepoetryonline.com/journal/rev122006.html
Here's someone who was never highly regarded in the LC, yet once free of the cult, she found the ability to write real poetry, not the drek produced by Wertz et al.

07-19-2008, 06:05 PM

xlcr4life

Quote:
Originally Posted by realme

For another example of an ex-member actually accomplishing something in the realm of art (specifically poetry), see
http://claudiagary.home.att.net/
http://www.blehert.com/guest/gpgary.html
http://www.expansivepoetryonline.com/journal/rev122006.html
Here's someone who was never highly regarded in the LC, yet once free of the cult, she found the ability to write real poetry, not the drek produced by Wertz et al.

I remember seeing her in the national office and you are correct about her not being considered a "name celebrity LC intellectual giant". She kinda blended in the backround, like many of us did. This is just another example for the LYM and LYMettes to understand that what you think is real is actually another cheap parlor trick of Lyn. The trick is to take some existing material and "larouchesize" it to the next higher lunacy of the higher lunacy.
If you do not have an immediate knowledge of the subject , Lyn can bamboozle you by having you spin your wheels examining what is allready known by adding some British twist to it or some other Old Dark Ages nonsense to make you sound real goofy when you meet people. You think you know something,, but you are still in Lyn's cave.
Anyone remember Milton? Claudia Schulman left the nut house and earned a PHD while teaching English Literature. She wrote a book called "Paradise Lost and the Rise of the American Republic"
http://www.jstor.org/pss/2167451
Review: [untitled]
John Canup
Reviewed work(s): Paradise Lost and the Rise of the American Republic by Lydia Dittler Schulman
The American Historical Review, Vol. 99, No. 2 (Apr., 1994), pp. 641 (review consists of 1 page)
Published by: American Historical Association
I picked up my copy real cheap here.
https://www.alibris.com/search/books/qwork/4980420/used/Paradise Lost and the Rise of the American Republic
http://www.amazon.com/Paradise-Lost-Rise-American-Republic/dp/1555531253
2 books cite this book:
Writing and Postcolonialism in the Early Republic by Edward Watts in Back Matter
A Concise Companion to Milton (Concise Companions to Literature and Culture) by Angelica Duran in Back Matter

http://www.scuttlebuttsmallchow.com/earlrep2.html
$45.00

[Milton] Schulman, Lydia Dittler, PARADISE LOST, AND THE RISE OF THE AMERICAN REPUBLIC . Northeastern University Press , 1992. NEW copy. Hardcover with dust jacket, still in shrinkwrap. Notes, bibliography, index, 273 pages. Synopsis: "This book examines "how American readers understood and employed Milton's text before, during, and after the American Revolution. Contending that Milton's epic, which was written after the fall of the English Commonwealth, represented the author's 'reflections on the difficulties of creating and sustaining . . . governments that ultimately rest upon the virtue and self-discipline of their citizens', Schulman suggests that this embedded debate on republicanism made his poem a touchstone for secular politicians during the rise of the American republic." (American Literature). From Booknews: "Schulman argues that an important, overlooked key to uncovering the social and political subtext of Milton's (1608-1674) epic is its popularity and use in the early American republic. At the same time, she demonstrates that an examination of the American reception of Paradise Lost contributes to an understanding of the ideological origins of the American Revolution." Annotation. From The American Historical Review: "For Schulman, the real point is Milton's argument that republican liberty, based on an educated, virtuous citizenry, must meet the challenge of controlling narrow self-interest through enlightened reason. . . . If Schulman inevitably fails to prove her thesis 'definitively,' she succeeds admirably in suggesting the complexity of Milton's role in the still lively debate over the soul of the republic. Her book is a strong contribution to that debate."

It is one of the highlites of life to see how former members have flourished after leaving this despicable life destroying collection of a mafia/cult run by a madman. Some current deadenders still cling to a delusion that they can flourish within the confines of a cult once Lyn kicks the bucket.
Aint gonna happen.
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

07-19-2008, 09:00 PM

boomer70

concerning Claudia Gary's poetry, what great stuff! hooray Claudia!
http://www.n2hos.com/acm/prep52001.html
does anyone know what's happening with Lydia Schulman's husband, Richard?

07-20-2008, 01:06 AM

howie

I don't know how much anyone has watched the "1932" film, narrated by Robert Beltran and with a couple thousand views on youtube. I basically skipped to the last ten minutes or so, and skipped about and saw very quick splashes.
So we see FDR openly chastizing Winston Churchill, a seething Churchill, Roosevelt speaks about how "The American People Despise the British Empire". Skip to a glowing , quote-in-quote "Roosevelt's hand picked successor" Henry Wallace, and he's forced out by the Democratic powerbrokers (visions of, I guess, the Triumphant British Empire in their head), and once Roosevelt dies, Truman comes to power, the Dream dies, the New Deal is destroyed, our present course is set in motion, and...
I think it might actually be Jeff Steinberg, but I'm not sure (I know I caught him referenced explicitly earlier in this thing) who gives the finale, and it's meaning didn't really hit until a while after I watched it. "Lincoln was killed by the British. A different set of circumstances with Roosevelt, who just died. But imagine if we didn't think of it like that. Imagine if we thought of Roosevelt as Alive and carried on from there!" (Paraphrasing)
Okay. Preparation to the LYM for Larouche's demise. Roosevelt = Larouche.
I think I missed this point initially because I was just sort of lost in this sea of faulty re-arranging the bricks to fit this narrative History. Franklin Roosevelt dumped Henry Wallace from the ticket on his own accord, and if he was convinced by the various elements in the Democratic Party that wanted him to do so, he was pretty easily convinced. He dumped Wallace for Truman in a rather passive-aggressive manner (starting with the fact that he was quite literally sent off to Siberia), but which allowed Wallace to stubbornly wash away the obvious entreaties Roosevelt made to get rid of him and, in his case, pack the Convention Hall to stampede his slot -- which was when that Fire Hazard was called to adjourn the night to safely brush the Wallacites aside and give it to Truman.
But then again, when we begin with the British assassinating Lincoln, why am I even getting lost in this historical detail?

07-20-2008, 03:16 AM

xlcr4life

Quote:
Originally Posted by borismaglev
On the contrary. When LaRouche penned the notorious "The Question of Stalinism Today," he left no one in doubt that Stalin was his inspiration. It was this particular writing that triggered the resignation of Christine Berle, the Labor Committee's Grand Dame on matters of music and art.

Since these events occured over 33 + years ago, I think the timeline has to be looked at.
On laroucheplanet.info you can read the Christine Berl resignation letter here.

Christine Berl & Henry Weinfield's letter of resignation - April 2, 1974

http://laroucheplanet.info/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=Library.BerlWeinfieldResignatiuon1
Notice the date of April 2, 1974.
The Stalin Campaigner which is here
http://wlym.com/PDF-68-76/CAM7511.pdf
is dated Nov 1975. Knowing that our delivery dates had no basis in the Greggorian calender, it is safe to say that it was produced and shipped after the Berl resignation, which began with Operation Mop Up .
In skimming just a few pages certain paragraphs leap out where the pile of DE books in the local office make Lyn the master of Marx. Lyn has Stalin being impotent in the Dialectical method. Of course, Lyn has mastered Dialectical Economics. Amazingly, Lyn does what I always find him doing if you actually read this lunacy in describing his own mental breakdown and paranoia via a description of Stalin. Someone who knows a bit about the Russian history of this era should give this a quick read to see how disjointed this all is.
In my defense of LCers past and present, who the hell actually read this crap? It was easier to just nod off during a class and hope it ends soon so you can get home to sleep. I swear if you did not know what you were reading, I could take some exerpts and if you read it you would think it was a description of Lyn by a mental health admissions officer instead of Lyn describing Stalin.
Howie, the cult's latest vector is to mass email rightwing conspiracy theorists with traditional Trilat, CFR and the Brits as the hook while they target the anti Obama / pro Hillary people with supposed "insider's info" about Obama which is dime a dozen on the web. Some of the sites are suspect as I am getting emails from people who find that they can not post anything about the Larouche cult without it being not allowed.
This really is a flash back to our 1970s organising where we have Obama as Jimmy carter who we have to stop, the right wing is fed daily meals of conspiracy food by us and later we should see inroads being attempted to gain favor with McCain supporters by having them finance the anti Obama material. Obama gets the racist makeover by Lyn to the LYM and LYMettes so that as "Larouche Democrats" we care so much for the country and the globe that doing dirty tricks on Obama is part of stopping the New Dark Ages. We did the same thing with Carter in demanding an "Open Convention" to save the party.
If McCain wins the election, you can dress up the LYM and LYMettes and have them do card table shrines in GOP areas by being Pro Nuke and attacking the Dem party and environmentalists via global Warming. You slow down the FDR channeling and say that "to support President McCain's pro nuclear proposals, you must support LPAC. Did you know that Lyn wrote the nuclear energy portion of his platform? We must save McCain from the British who will be usurping him via their phony Global Warming conspiracy".
If Lyn stepped back, I and a few people here could run this whole show as it is a virtual repeat of the late 1970s. Always remember that Lyn sets the sails to catch the flow of cash in multi directions.
Most of the right wing stuff comes via the Rense show and the reanimated Carto grouping. Jeff Steinberg makes a few bucks which he may keep for himself by ghost writing articles.
Believe me LYM and LYMettes, Jeff and Michelle will be seeing the new Batman movie and will have no trouble getting the extra large snacks , premium show time schedules and putting gas in the tank to drive to the multi plex.
Go make that money.
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

07-20-2008, 04:02 PM

borisbad

Just word of advice. Since many of us have no way of knowing how former members wish their current activities to be viewed, I would suggest we try and limit mention of ex-members by last name as much as possible except for those exceptions, like Robert Zubrin, who is very much in the news on his own accord. While we may not have blacklists like existed under McCarthy, some ex-members, IMHO, may not wish their past affiliations to be known.

07-20-2008, 04:52 PM

earnest_one

Sane Precaution

Quote:
Originally Posted by borisbad
Just word of advice. Since many of us have no way of knowing how former members wish their current activities to be viewed, I would suggest we try and limit mention of ex-members by last name as much as possible except for those exceptions, like Robert Zubrin, who is very much in the news on his own accord. While we may not have blacklists like existed under McCarthy, some ex-members, IMHO, may not wish their past affiliations to be known.


Reasonable advice and a sane, humane, precaution.

07-20-2008, 05:33 PM

scrimscraw

On the Record

Quote:
Originally Posted by borisbad
Just word of advice. Since many of us have no way of knowing how former members wish their current activities to be viewed, I would suggest we try and limit mention of ex-members by last name as much as possible except for those exceptions, like Robert Zubrin, who is very much in the news on his own accord. While we may not have blacklists like existed under McCarthy, some ex-members, IMHO, may not wish their past affiliations to be known.

While I understand this concern, it does seem to me that anyone who ever wrote with a byline for the Campaigner (which are all up online) or wrote for New Solidarity or the New Federalist - or was written about in those papers (a fair number of articles of which are online) , or anyone mentioned in Dennis King's book or in his bibliography, is already in the Public Record as a member at one time or another.
I don't think that former membership should qualify anyone for ridicule here, and I am all for extending sympathy to anyone caught up in the cult. But it also seems to me that an important function of this board (and of the LaRoucheplanet.info site) is to discuss the history of the LC, and that sometimes means mentioning names. A bunch of anecdotes about "Bob" or "Jim" can soon get confusing and lack a certain credibility, IMHO. But that's just my opinion as an outsider.

07-20-2008, 06:15 PM

socialistboomer

"in the public record"

scrimshaw wrote:
While I understand this concern, it does seem to me that anyone who ever wrote with a byline for the Campaigner (which are all up online) or wrote for New Solidarity or the New Federalist - or was written about in those papers (a fair number of articles of which are online) , or anyone mentioned in Dennis King's book or in his bibliography, is already in the Public Record as a member at one time or another.
In the field of archives and public records, there is a term "practical obscurity." Yes, the info is available, but not all that readily accessible, and may languish in practical obscurity.
Lots of people had occasional New Solidarity bylines, or were mentioned in NS articles. Some former members may have made their sole NS appearance when they were listed as part of a plot to assassinate El Marco. I don't think there's a reason to use surnames, on the basis of having appeared in a LaRouche publication.
I can't think of an absolute "rule." Accordingly, I won't use surnames of ex-members unless I think it's very relevant to the posting.
07-20-2008, 11:22 PM

xlcr4life

Quote:
Originally Posted by earnest_one
Reasonable advice and a sane, humane, precaution.

That is generally a good idea to follow. I guess it is a great emotion to fling the lunacy , the abuse, the cruelty, the sickness of the Lyn right back at the last remnants of this nightmare.
Realme wrote this a few posts back with links to Claudia's works.
"Here's someone who was never highly regarded in the LC, yet once free of the cult, she found the ability to write real poetry, not the drek produced by Wertz et al."
People may disagree, but I thoroughly enjoy reading that as a FU to the people who made her life miserable. I was not personal friends with Claudia, however, that post and links shocked my memory to a few occasions decades ago. I will not repeat the horrendous descriptions of her uttered by a few people. What you should all know is that the cult ,by nature of the Larouche/Schachtian economic model did not look upon favorouly on members who need to attend to their medical needs instead of Lyn's needs.
To have a worthless bootlicking toady like Will Wertz parade himself as a jailhouse genius is not just comical, but understand that he and the rest of Lyn's lower level thugs viewed certain members as LC Useless eaters . I think Shadok once posted a link to Marriana Wertz's obituary on the "fallen heros" obit page. Her value was being able to still make those fundraising calls to keep Lyn's lifesyle going to the very end. They were LC useless eaters if they did not sign over their credit cards, take out loans and spend every single moment awake making money . IF they had talent in any field of the arts, that talent was only valued if they would find more artists and musicians to fleece or sucker into worshipping Lyn. At the very least the job was to create an illusion so Lyn could say "My dear friend _______ ( insert first name here) who agrees I am a genius."
That was a real treat to click those links and read her work and about her career.
Brave, Bravo, Bravo, Bravo
The Lydia S. book on Milton is a real nice book to read and only costs a few bucks. These examples , among the very few which are found here is but part of how people flourish who leave this nightmare . You do not have to write a book or win an award or make a million bucks to prove yourself outside of the cult. But, it is damn sure a lock if you bet that a member in the cult will not be able to do the same thing.
I have some finishing touches to do on using the Larouche-Schachtian economic model to analyze the 35 years of Gary Gennazio for the LYM and LYMettes. Your value is pretty clear to see to Lyn and he sure aint going to your funeral. But he expects you to worship him during his instead of laughing at this farce.

In the mean time, what happens when you travel by jet and end up sitting next to a LYM or LYMette these days. Boy, if this isn't a case for building Maglevs so you can walk away to another car.
http://lifeofmattbymatt.blogspot.com/2008/07/larouche-means-la-crazy.html
Friday, July 18, 2008
LaRouche means La Crazy
On an earlier post, I mentioned that I sat next to an Australian guy who was a part of the Larouche Youth Movement. This movement is an underling of the "infamous" political/economist Lyndon LaRouche. I had no idea who this LaRouche guy was when his name was mentioned on the plane, but after doing some research, I can see that the guy I was talking to worked for a crazy man. In my discussions with the guy, I noticed that he had some weird views about some current political and economic issues, so I tried to counter point all his views (not argue, just inquire with counter points), but they seemed to be brushed off, a sign that the guy really had no answer to my counter points, mostly because the counter points were logical and his views were not.
The only other thing that was really weird was that this youth movement he is a part of gets their message out via African American Spiritual singing. When he said this to me, I just fell silent... as I typically do not respond to crazy.

Check out this new countergang to the LYM and LYMettes which is , get this, asconding with FDR from Lyn.
http://rooseveltinstitution.org/
While Jeff and Michelle are seeing Batman for the second time, Tony Chaitkin is busy doing the research to prove that the British did this to steal college youth away from Lyn.
http://chadlupkes.blogspot.com/2008/07/netroots-nation-thursday.html
Saturday, July 19, 2008
Netroots Nation, Thursday
Two of the exhibitors caught my attention.
The Roosevelt Institution is a nonprofit, nonpartisan national network of campus-based student think tanks. The people behind the table were young guys who could have been part of the LaRouche movement if they had turned off their brains. I'm glad they didn't.
The "Texas Table" was a table where a bunch of Texas nonprofits got together and shared time and space. I think dealing directly with nonprofit organizations is something that the political and activist groups should be doing more and more often.

I would try to hook up with the Roosevelt Institution LYM and LYMettes. You do this while in college to do what is called "networking" as well as be in the real world. Stuff like this leads to internships and adding to your resume to persue real opportunities to do real work with real groups and real people.

xlcr4life@hotmail.com

07-21-2008, 04:33 AM

eaglebeak

The Life of Lyndon LaRouche, Starring Charlton Heston

MORNING BRIEFING
Monday, July 14, 2008
WINDY HILL DIALOGUES, OPEN DISCUSSION, July 2, 2008
"THIS IS A LIVING TRAGEDY,
IN THE REAL, CLASSICAL SENSE OF TRAGEDY"
[This is meaningless, in the real, classical sense of meaningless]
Here is the back and forth [mostly forth] dialogue from Saturday's Windy Hill meeting with Lyn. The complete transcript is in a8287lar001.

….The moral and intellectual and physical degeneration of the United States during this period, the viciousness of the degeneration, as typified by video games, has produced a condition in which youth are losing their ability to be human beings. They may look like human beings; they may have potential human qualities; but they're becoming less and less human. They're becoming more and more like something out of Aldous Huxley's Brave New World. The society is degenerating into a Wellsian society, an H.G. Wellsian society, in which you talk about green—you know, you melt down the bodies of living people, for people to eat; you recycle humanity as green, as Brave New World. Hmm? That's the kind of society! …
…So these guys have no sense of reality. They have a sense of entertainment, they have a sense of Brave New World. They have a sense of an H.G. Wells kind of conception of the world, a utopia, in which things are just "managed"; Big Brother manages everything….
Let's see. In the space of two short paragraphs LaRouche manages to confuse and conflate Aldous Huxley, H.G. Wells, Harry Harrison and Stanley Greenberg, and George Orwell—more proof positive that Lyn never read a book. Aldous Huxley and H.G. Wells, it's true, both wrote dystopias—but there the comparison ends. Abruptly. George Orwell, the creator of Big Brother, had zip to do with either of them. And then there's Harry Harrison (the novelist) and Stanley Greenberg (the screenwriter)—of Soylent Green. Isn't it just typical of Lyn to think that soylent green was in Brave New World? Like the way he confused the Boris Karloff movie with Mary Wollstonecraft Shelley's Frankenstein? The guy never read a book—he just watched endless hours of movies on TV.
You can consider all his other opinions equally authoritative.
….
So the point is, it's like—I had this unimportant experience, I suppose, World War II, when I'd got myself in the military, and got myself in the process of training troops, basic training.[Absolute, total lie—or, to be charitable, fantasy. Lyn never trained anyone for the U.S. Army. Trained them to do what? Empty bedpans? Because that's what Lyn did during World War II.] And I can tell you, what we got was not very promising. Every time a truckload of these new recruits, draftees would turn up, I'd look at them, "We just lost World War II." [laughter] … [Just think. Lyn entered the Army at the age of 22 or so—born in 1992, went into the Army in 1943 or 1944—and he went in as a Conscientious Objector, a medic—and suddenly he's Douglas MacArthur, winning the war in the Pacific. Well, LYMers and LYMettes, we probably can't get his military records without his consent while he's alive--although it would be worth a try--but the day will come when he's shuffled off this mortal coil, and you can read those records, and read up on this "training"….]
…It's deceptive because you had the parents of the Baby-Boomer generation—the Baby-Boomer generation were generally people who were secret McCarthyites, or secret same kind of thing: They were fascists. They were fascists themselves, but they believe the United States was being controlled by fascists; And they're (sic) family was going to have good jobs, in universities, as professors or this, or going to go to work for a company where you had to have a security clearance to work for that company, in that particular job. Huh? [Emphasis added. Note that the Baby Boomers were not secret McCarthyites, they were infants. Also note that the people Lyn is calling fascists—the parents of the Baby Boomers—are the generation that fought and won World War II.]
And the whole system was immoral. The wives were the worst; the husbands were meek and timid characters themselves, being beaten up by their wives. . [The eternal LaRouche principle: Cherchez la femme.] Because the wives said, "You are not going to… You are not going to… you are not going to get this family in trouble." You are not going to do that," the children were told. You're not going to do this; you're not going to get this family in trouble." You've got to know the conditions of the late 1940s and early 1960s. "You are not…" so that people who—there was really a reign of terror in this country.

07-21-2008, 05:31 AM

xlcr4life

Quote:
Originally Posted by eaglebeak
MORNING BRIEFING
Monday, July 14, 2008
WINDY HILL DIALOGUES, OPEN DISCUSSION, July 2, 2008
"THIS IS A LIVING TRAGEDY,
IN THE REAL, CLASSICAL SENSE OF TRAGEDY"
[The society is degenerating into a Wellsian society, an H.G. Wellsian society, in which you talk about green—you know, you melt down the bodies of living people, for people to eat; you recycle humanity as green, as Brave New World. Hmm? That's the kind of society! .

Two things of note here.
The money saved on gasoline must have went to pay Lyn's premium channel cable tier. One of the cable networks (I think TCM) has been running both the movie and short special on the making of Solyent Green. It has been playing along with ads for the next viewing on TCM for the last month.
http://www.tcm.com/tcmdb/title.jsp?stid=2061
I saw the ad last night between movies I recorded on TCM.
The WW2 speech is virtually word for word of previous Lyn speeches for LYM and LYMettes. But then again, everything the LYM and LYMettes are hearing is the same crap done over and over for decades.
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

07-21-2008, 08:53 AM

scrimscraw

Quote:
Originally Posted by ’‘‘socialistboomer'''
scrimshaw wrote:
While I understand this concern, it does seem to me that anyone who ever wrote with a byline for the Campaigner (which are all up online) or wrote for New Solidarity or the New Federalist - or was written about in those papers (a fair number of articles of which are online) , or anyone mentioned in Dennis King's book or in his bibliography, is already in the Public Record as a member at one time or another.
In the field of archives and public records, there is a term "practical obscurity." Yes, the info is available, but not all that readily accessible, and may languish in practical obscurity.

That may have been the case in the past, but with online archives these days and search engines such as Google, practical obscurity is a thing of the past. Type someone's name into Google and you'd be amazed what you come up with.

Quote
Lots of people had occasional New Solidarity bylines, or were mentioned in NS articles. Some former members may have made their sole NS appearance when they were listed as part of a plot to assassinate El Marco. I don't think there's a reason to use surnames, on the basis of having appeared in a LaRouche publication.

And I respect your opinion on this. Nevertheless, if someone has publicly linked their name with the LC or LaRouche in print, at any point in their life, they are now in the same position as anyone else who linked their name with any other organization, movement, ideology, or publication in the course of their life. Most of it is now out there - accessible to Googling - and they now have to deal with it.

Quote:

I can't think of an absolute "rule." Accordingly, I won't use surnames of ex-members unless I think it's very relevant to the posting.

That's fine. But I still think it is relevant with some publicly prominent ex-LCers, such as Webster Tarpley, to be able to discuss their present output in terms of what they may have imbibed while part of the LC. To me, that is just as relevant as discussing the past political associations of other political commentators (such as, say, Christopher Hitchens or Irving Kristol or Edmund Wilson or Garry Wills) when assessing their later stances. Anyone who commits themself to print defacto becomes a part of the public debate and that means they are not immune from mention in public forums such as this. Again, YMMV...

07-21-2008, 12:47 PM

eaglebeak

Seriously, Though

Lyn's World War II record: Bearing in mind that Lyn turned 23 after the Japanse surrender, and bearing in mind that he was a medic in the Army, don't you LYMers and LYMettes think his "war record" of "training" soldiers in boot camp bears a little closer examination?
I said we probably can't get his military records without his consent as long as he's alive. But I could be wrong. Someone with some $$ and/or legal resources should consider a FOIA request. Maybe Barbara could help prepare it.
Or George.
Of course, the best thing would be to figure out some way publicly to demand it, and to force Lyn to refuse to release his records.
"Training" my foot!
The truth simply isn't in him.

07-21-2008, 04:38 PM

localgreek

Hate your lmother and father and love only ME!!

[QUOTE=eaglebeak;357568][b]MORNING BRIEFING
Monday, July 14, 2008
===============
localgreek: thanks eaglebeak for this posting of that briefing. Frankly, I do not, really do not understand, how anyone who is over 40 and who reads this stays in that "org." The subtext is hate your families and all they did for you and hate all their aspirations for you, love only ME. Only I, the great LL will lead the way. And you guys just came from terrorized families who wouldn't allow you to do anything real, or creative. So, just follow me, LL, and you will be free and enlightened.
To describe the hard working generation who were the parents of the Baby boomers as fascists is so disgusting, so creepy, the boomers should just walk out en masse. And it was the US who really made sure the war was won. Without American know-how and money, nothing was going to be won.
So, what is wrong with being a professor? Just the best life you can have, huh, or is it that in the world of LL standing on the street sucking in fumes or sitting in some boiler room calling up old ladies and wrenching out dollars, now that is really the road to nirvana??
And what is wrong working in a company that has a good health insurance, a good pension plan, and respects its workers and does not abuse them like LL??
And then the attack on women. Again here we go: the castrating femal.
I hate to say it over and over again but I just don't get it how the membership can take this kind of ....

07-21-2008, 06:42 PM

earnest_one Worthiness Cubed, then Doubled

Quote:
Originally Posted by earnest_one
"Reasonable advice and a sane, humane, precaution."
Quote:
Originally Posted by XLCR4LIFE:
"That is generally a good idea to follow. I guess it is a great emotion to fling the lunacy , the abuse, the cruelty, the sickness of the Lyn right back at the last remnants of this nightmare."
Indeed. And I MUST simply note that nobody can fault YOU for making a minor mistake or two, given your truly VAST, SANE, AND HUMANE, dedication to this worthy cause.
With EVERY BEST WISH,
earnest_one
07-21-2008, 08:43 PM

xlcr4life

Quote:
Originally Posted by eaglebeak
Lyn's World War II record: Bearing in mind that Lyn turned 23 after the Japanse surrender, and bearing in mind that he was a medic in the Army, don't you LYMers and LYMettes think his "war record" of "training" soldiers in boot camp bears a little closer examination?
I said we probably can't get his military records without his consent as long as he's alive. But I could be wrong. Someone with some $$ and/or legal resources should consider a FOIA request. Maybe Barbara could help prepare it..

We really do not have to do that as someone has graciously sent some sections of a project on the early years of Lyn creating a cult in his own image to Laroucheplanet.info.
Some of Lyn's military life is now being posted here for the first time.

In reading some of these exciting chapters my early gut instincts about the cult a few years ago seems to be on target. I always wondered just how is that Lyn has a laser like pointer at specific enemies for us to go after? Could it be that besides providing a comfortable life with someone else paying the bills, is the real reason for the LC/LYM to exist is to avenge the numerous wrongs supposedly done to Lyn's mother?
I say this because part of what I am having a ball reading is that Lyn grew up in a household of lawsuits, trying to split groups and seeing firsthand Evangelical fire and brimstone preachers preach.
One of the most bizarre periods in the LC was Lyn sending the membership to attack the Amercian Friends Service Commmittee (AFSC). When I review many of the enemies which filled Lyn's head with a delusional hysteria, I find that a lot of what was considered "our" enemy was a parade of people and groups who Lyn or his family did not like for one reason or another. LHL Jr means that there was a Sr.
Here are some exerpts.
In World War I, the American Friends Service Committee (AFSC) established. The AFSC became a personal bête noire for LaRouche's parents apparently because the AFSC was seen both as a secular social work organization operating under religious guise and also because it had worked with the Wilson administration during the war. Many of its members were also from the strongly liberal wing of the wealthy Quaker elite. In The Power of Reason, LaRouche writes of the AFSC: The AFSC was defending its desired interest . . . by proselytizing and factionalizing within the Society. The AFSC was associated in this respect with the substitution of a doctrine of social works for the Friends' faith and theology.11
The crisis for the LaRouches was particularly acute precisely because at this time there was a drive by all factions inside the Society of Friends to reach some kind of reconciliation and finally end the bitter disputes that had plagued the organization for a century and which had led by the 1920s to a rapid decline in general membership with the Hicks group being the worst (5) affected.
The LaRouches, however, opposed any attempt at theological compromise even as they railed against the AFSC. (12)LaRouche's father first begins his polemical attack against the AFSC in the early 1920s. He even accused the group of trying to develop a pro-Bolshevik faction inside the Society of Friends. (13) Some of the background to the family fight with the AFSC also seeps out in an interview in the November 1986 issue of San Francisco Focus.
Asked, "So you had a liberal Quaker upbringing?"
LaRouche replied, "Oh, it wasn't liberal at all. It was evangelical. We were not liberal Quakers. There are liberal Quakers, I know the American Friends Service Committee et al. I never liked them, and I was right on that one. (Laughs.) But the evangelical Quaker position is the traditional Quaker position."
Yet at its root, the conflict between the LaRouches " and the Aliberal Quakers" in the AFSC involved money.
From the Labor Committee published book, The New Dark Ages Conspiracy:
"LaRouche"s parent were involved in a battle for many years to prevent the Friends Service Committee from misappropriating funds which had been left in trust to the Society of Friends for the furtherance of the Christian religion. This principled struggle subjected him and his father to the kind of targeted harassment that taught him to recognize a British dirty operation at an early age. More important, his parents' staunch Whig conservatism gave him a more intimate connection with that tradition than many other less fortunate people of his generation."(14"

This dispute with the AFSC involved the "Austin Crossman Trust Fund," which had been set by a wealthy uncle of LaRouche's mother, who had been a prosperous shoe-box manufacturer. LaRouche's parents claimed that the money from the fund Adisappeared@ in 1928-32. They also said that they had some rights to the money that Crossman and another Quaker had given to the Society of Friends for "religious education."(15) Instead the "AFSC faction within the Silsbee Street Meeting" used the money presumably to finance their own social work activities.(16)
Later we find this;
Bracketing the name The Independent on both sides are two tiny fleur de lys, symbol of France. It appears that Lyndon, Sr. -- either alone or with others – may have run a right-wing publication called The Independent out of Manchester. From 1932 to 1937, LaRouche's father regularly commuted between Lynn and Manchester, where his father reportedly owned some businesses. In fact for those years, his father mostly lived in New Hampshire and only spent the weekends with his family in Lynn.21 The family also earlier helped sponsor an anti-Communist evangelical preacher in the 1920s. LaRouche relates this incident in a NS piece about his childhood, where he described his parents as "good, average, God-fearing evangelical Christians." He relates that his parents once sponsored the talk of an unnamed evangelical Christian woman who specialized in anti-communism diatribes. She spoke in the basement of the Congregational Church in Manchester. LaRouche describes her as being in the "Gerald Winrod" tradition. The Kansas-based Winrod (dubbed the "Jayhawk Nazi" in the 1930s in the press) was a well-known leading Protestant fundamentalist. He was also a fierce anti-Semite and conspiracy theorist who attacked the Illuminati as part of a Jewish-Satanic conspiracy against Jesus

Like father like son?
The LaRouches continued to reject any idea of reconciliation with the broader Quaker community. After the war, the LaRouches seem to have formally broken with the rest of the Orthodox Quakers, who had accepted a compromise that allowed both Orthodox and Hicksite Quakers to worship together in the same meeting house by putting doctrinal differences aside. Instead the LaRouches founded their own church, a Boston skid-row ministry where they preached to the down and out much as Jessie Weir's (11)
father, the Reverend George Weir, had preached to skid row sinners many years ago in 19th century Ohio. From The Boston Phoenix: Mr. and Mrs. LaRouche were strong partisans of a rigid fundamentalist position and protested the proposed reunification, according to Quaker meeting members, even to passing out broadsides attacking those of differing views. After Mr. LaRouche was Adisavowed@ by the Lynn Meeting, his wife and 19-year-old son, Lyndon, Jr., resigned. Shortly after that, the LaRouches became involved with a mission in the South End of Boston called the "Good Samaritan."(24) They stayed active with it until, in the mid-Fifties, they took control and reorganized it as The Village Street Society of Friends, an independent fundamentalist Quaker group. According to Mr. LaRouche, Sr., his son, Lyndon, was one of the incorporating officers of the church [this was while LaRouche was simultaneously a member of the SWP] and is still an officer. LaRouche=s parents, in short, created their own religious sect to promulgate their views much as their son would create his own secular sect years later to preach his own doctrines!

More family squabbles.
"FAMILY FEUD When not attacking his religious foes, LaRouche, Sr., occupied at least part of his time suing his own sister! The roots of this conflict seem to stem from the fact that both Joseph LaRouche and his wife Ella remained Catholics even as their son became a fanatical Quaker. Although Joseph died in 1931, his wife lived till 1957. In her will she clearly disinherited her only son.
14
At the core of the conflict seems to be a deep hatred between LaRouche's hyper-religious mother Jessie and her mother-in-law Ella that rapidly grew worse after Joseph LaRouche died. From The Power of Reason: About the time the second sister was born [LaRouche's youngest sister Caroline Shirley], the conflict between my mother and my father's mother not only became obvious to me, but was a focal point of intensified disturbances within the family order itself. It became worse after my grandfather, my father's father [Joseph], died in 1931. . . . After that, things in the family grew progressively worse. The hostility between my mother and grandmother deepened, with my father caught between, sometimes left with only rage. It grew worse. (40-41) The feud even had a theological dimension since Ella LaRouche remained a staunch Catholic. Even after her death, it continued.
The Lexis cite Lyndon, Sr.'s, suit against his sister reads as follows:
CHARLES V. HOGAN vs . LYNDON H. LAROUCHE Supreme Judicial Court of Massachusetts 337 Mass. 772; 150 N.E.2d 526; 1958 Mass. LEXIS 801 May 19, 1958 COUNSEL: [**1] Michael J. Reardon & John A. Murphy , for the contestant, submitted a brief. John J. Foley, for the proponent.
OPINION [*526] Order denying jury issues affirmed. This is an appeal from an order of the Probate Court denying a motion to frame issues for a jury in the matter of the allowance of a will of Ella S. LaRouche, late of Lynn.
15
The decedent died January 22, 1957, leaving as her only heirs a daughter Edith Preston, who was the sole beneficiary named in the will, and a son Lyndon H. LaRouche, who contests its allowance. The appeal is prosecuted only in respect to the issue whether the will was procured by the fraud and undue influence of Edith Preston and her husband Herbert E. Preston. From statements by counsel of expected evidence, it appears that, although eighty-six years of age when the will was executed on April 21, 1955, the decedent was a woman accustomed to making her own business judgments, competent to care [*527] for her property, and unlikely to be subject to the influence of others in her disposal of it. It is plain that the averments of undue influence are based mainly on suspicion and conjecture. Flynn v. Prindeville , 327 Mass. [**2] 266, 269. There was no error in the order of the judge. See Neill v. Brackett , 234 Mass. 367; Fuller v. Sylvia , 240 Mass. 49; Hannon v. Gorman, 296 Mass. 437. In short, Lyndon LaRouche, Sr., had not only been summarily expelled from the Lynn Quaker Meeting but he also had been disinherited by mother in a family dispute that raged on for decades.
Does Lyn need psychoanalysis to deal with his mother???? Notice that what Lyn wants you to tell your mother is not what he tells his mother.
ROOTS OF A MARXIST MESSIAH? When Boston Phoenix reporter Vin McLellan went to visit the Village Friends Meeting in 1974, he spoke with LaRouche's then 81-year-old mother, Jessie. (She would die 4 years later.) She still visited Boston twice a week to teach Bible class at Village Friends.
True to the Orthodox Quaker belief in the validity of the Bible, she told McLellan,
"You'd enjoy studying the Bible. It's the one book that never makes a mistake."
When asked about her son, Jessie replied:
"You know about the seed and the tree,"she said, after a discussion of the Bible. "Well, I'm the seed when it comes to Lindy. I got a letter (16)
from Lindy in August. 27 Shall I tell you what it said? I will.
He said,
"Mother, there are many who will never see you who love you for what you have given to me." "

McLellan then mentions LaRouche'' repeated attack on "mothers" in his Beyond Psychoanalysis series of writings before concluding I find myself going back again to the oddest knot I=ve found. Awkwardly and ironically, perhaps his own model for understanding personality explains most. Lyndon Hermyle LaRouche, Marxist Messiah, is still an officer of his mother's church. In the course of the 1970s, as we shall see, LaRouche would become less and less Marxist and more and more Messiah. As he did, the seed turned tree would bear strange fruit.

Now let us take a look at how GI Lyn actually saved the world.
"STRAIGHT INTO CAMPTON
5
With the outbreak of World War II in December 1941 (just two months after his father had been expelled from the Lynn Meeting) LaRouche was faced with the prospect of registering as a conscious objector (CO) and going to prison or being drafted. NO doubt under intense pressure from his family, he chose at first to become a CO. By December 1942, he was interned in Camp 32 in West Campton, New Hampshire. Ironically, the American Friends Service Committee (AFSC) helped supervised Camp 32 for the government so that the very organization that his father had so bitterly railed against was now in charge of his only son. The camp COs split into two factions, the A100er. The first group supported the AFSC's management of the camp while the second bitterly opposed it. LaRouche, for his part, chose to become a A2ers were highly political and argued that they should engage in peaceful non-resistance to government power inside the camp and that to accept the deal struck between the Roosevelt government and the AFSC was to tacitly collaborate in the war effort. A great many of the 2%ers came from anarchist, pacifist, Socialist Party, Communist Party and other left-wing backgrounds. Until 7 December 1941, the vast majority of Americans -- both left and right -- were firm isolationists. It is also worth recalling the role played by the American Communist Party in promoting leftwing isolationist sentiment. From 23 August 1939 till the day Hitler invaded the Soviet Union on 22 June 1941, the CP tirelessly campaigned against American support for England. The party argued that British imperialism – and pro-British financiers inside America like the Morgan group in New York – posed the real threat to world peace. Churchill, not Hitler, was the real "warmonger." Anti-interventionists on both the left and the right viewed World War II as essentially a repeat of World War I. Both then and now, British imperialism wanted to trick America into fighting on its side in an imperialist war between rival capitalist powers. The only principled position, therefore, was to resist participation in another senseless war much as the American Socialist Party had opposed American entry into World War I.
In the 1920s and 1930s, many Americans were convinced that the lives of their soldiers that were lost in World War I had been sacrificed for a meaningless cause. Antiwar films such as The Big Parade and books like All Quiet on the Western Front became huge hits. Throughout the1930s, populist Congressmen zeroed in armaments manufacturers and claimed (6) that these "merchants of death" promoted war solely for private economic gain. Resistance to American involvement in a new war in Europe also swept many American campuses in the late 1930s spearheaded both by Communist Party front groups as well as the student wing of America First.6 At the same time, the German government also worked feverously to encourage American isolationist sentiment, and this fact also plays a role in LaRouche‟s history.
F. PORTER'S PATER
While incarcerated in Camp 32, LaRouche became good friends with F. Porter Sargent, whom he later described in a long article in New Solidarity.7 They met while on a government-assigned work detail. Sargent later recalled their encounter in an interview with the Boston Phoenix:
"I met him (LaRouche) in the ALouse Camp,@ a section of the camp where they put us in tents and used us for guinea pigs for medical experiments. They covered us with lice and told us not to scratch.".................
A MARCO POLO OR WHAT'S IN A NAME?
During his sojourn at Camp 32, LaRouche reports that he was nicknamed "Marco Polo" by his fellow prisoners because of his deep desire to travel. Curiously, there was a real life "Marco Polo" among the inmates named William Hinton, who would later became famous for Fanshen, his study of Mao‟s China. In 1936 at age 17 Hinton postponed entry to Harvard and hitchhiked from Vermont to San Francisco. He then worked on a boat that took him first to Japan and then northern China. From there he hopped on the trans-Siberian railroad to Europe before returning to the United States. While LaRouche was reading Capital, Hinton was reading Edgar Snow's pro-Mao book Red Star over China, a book that convinced Hinton of the existence of just wars. Hinton then left the camp to enroll in the Army (although he was rejected from service due to a perforated eardrum). LaRouche and his fellow 2
er he supported the AFSC.(12)
Now we get to the real deal on what went on back then. As is usually the case, what Lyn tells you is not what wintesses will tell you later after they hear the whoppers.
PASSAGE TO INDIA
In 1943 LaRouche – like Hinton -- decided that he also wanted out of West Campton. His decision threw his parents into a new frenzy.
Asked by the San Francisco Focus, "Were your parents upset with you because of the break?"
he replied: Oh, extremely. This was the bitterest strain between me and my parents that ever happened. They had their tears, crying and so forth. It went on for six or seven years.
SF Focus: How did it affect you?
LaR: Well, it was an upheaval, a very good one, in the sense that I had to take responsibility for the state of affairs around me.
In this same interview, LaRouche says that I was only a CO for about a year, then I couldn't stand it anymore. The clincher was meeting the other COs. I said I'm not one of these. I don't belong here. I called the Selective Service Board and said, "Get me out of here."
What LaRouche didn‟t mention was that 1943 saw the beginnings of a nationwide total resistance campaign inside the federal camp system launched by the 2%ers who aggressively refused to cooperate with either the AFSC or the government. Instead they opted for mass incarceration in (12) federal jail. (13) LaRouche would have been faced with choosing either to remain in the camp under the AFSC as his 2%er allies went to jail or to go to jail with them.
Whatever his reasons, LaRouche enlisted in the Army as a non-combatant medic and served in the India-Burma theatre during World War II, After the war ended, he was stationed in Bengal and Assam. (14)
A source once close to LaRouche added these comments:
"He says he entered the camps under duress from his family. . . . However, he did not go from the camp directly to the army. He applied for transfer to a non-sectarian [CO] western camp which was rehabilitating land in the desert. He got into trouble there and then applied for non-combatant status in the Army. In later years he pretended to have gone through boot camp and trained recruits. The latter can't be true. About the former I don't know. "
The same source also recalled him saying that during his time in Assam, he "worked as a medical orderly giving injections to soldiers who ran afoul of wild animals in the jungle."

xlcr4life@hotmail.com

07-22-2008, 07:33 PM

xlcr4life

While Schiller wrote a play called "The Robbers", the Schiller Institute is still in the middle of performing something which could be called "The Grave Robbers". It took a while to show up, but the cult finally set up a collection for themselves using the death of John Morris in the Chicago Sun Times.
http://www.legacy.com/chicagosuntime...onID=112280437
Morris, John David June 7, 1960 to June 16, 2008, Political organizer with LaRouche movement for 26 years. Survivors include parents Hal and Barbara Morris, brother Rob, and many colleagues and friends. Condolences and contributions to Schiller Institute, c/o MCC, 4343 N Clarendon, Suite 104-8, Chicago, IL, 60613.
Published in the Chicago Sun-Times
John Morris's biggest mistake was getting mesmerized by Lyn when he was once seated near him at a dinner table. The report I recieved had poor John never the same after this special effects show. John Morris is about the same age as myself. I have a wonderful family and see what a waste it was to die so young. For the non stop devotion, fundraising, worship , physical, mental and monetary sacrifice he made to Lyn, you would think you could find something on the Schiller Institute web site.
You think?
You have to go across the ocean to find something which shows just how cruel and cheap this cold blooded cult really is when you bite the dust.
This is from Aus der Neuen Solidarität Nr. 28/2008
http://www.solidaritaet.com/neuesol/2008/28/john.htm
Here is an English version from Italian.
http://translate.google.com/translat...azio%26hl%3Den
In memory of John D. Morris Morris
Il 16 giugno è mancato John David Morris, 48 anni, leader del movimento di LaRouche negli Stati Uniti dagli anni Settanta, vittima di un incidente stradale a Chicago. On June 16 there has been no John David Morris, 48 years, leaders of the movement of LaRouche in the United States since the seventies, a victim of a traffic accident in Chicago. Nel 1995 John contribuì a dar vita al Movimento internazionale per i Diritti Civili Solidarietà a Milano, proveniente allora da Filadelfia, dove aveva studiato l'italiano. In 1995, John helped give life to the International Movement for Civil Rights Solidarity in Milan, then coming from Philadelphia, where he studied Italian. Lo conobbi di persona nel 1997, durante un viaggio negli Stati Uniti, e rimasi colpita dalla sua conoscenza approfondita non soltanto della cultura e della musica italiana, ma anche del cibo e dei vini italiani. The met in person in 1997, during a trip to the United States, and I was impressed by his deep knowledge not only of culture and Italian music, but also food and Italian wines.

Insieme organizzammo dei banchetti informativi del movimento di LaRouche in vari campus americani, tra cui la West Virginia University el'Ohio University, e tenemmo conferenze sull'Italia e sul Rinascimento italiano a Pittsburgh, dove risiedeva allora. Together organizzammo banquet of information of the movement of LaRouche in several American campuses, including West Virginia University el'Ohio University, and tenemmo conference on Italy and the Italian Renaissance in Pittsburgh, where he lived then. I giovani reagivano bene alle sue battute sui Sessantottini, el'ironia era sempre parte integrante del suo approccio, nello spiegare a studenti e professori il progetto di LaRouche per cambiare il corso della politica mondiale. Young people responded well to his jokes about Sessantottini, el'ironia was always an integral part of its approach, in explaining to students and professors the draft LaRouche to change the course of world politics. Quando sorse il movimento giovanile di LaRouche anche in Europa, si recò spesso in Germania, e anche lì diede un contributo fondamentale al Movimento Solidarietà tedesco, incoraggiandolo a superare gli ostacoli che in politica non mancano mai, soprattutto in un paese in cui predominano categorie formali, sempre smentite dalla realtà. When the youth movement arose to LaRouche also in Europe, went often in Germany, and also there was a fundamental contribution to German Solidarity Movement, encouraging them to overcome obstacles that in politics never fail, especially in a country where formal categories predominate , Always denied by reality. Tornato negli Stati Uniti, si era trasferito dalla California, suo stato natale, a Chicago, anche lì per dar vita alla sede del movimento di LaRouche. Returning to the United States, was transferred from California, his native state, in Chicago, also there to give life to the headquarters of the movement of LaRouche. Anche a Chicago incontrava moltissimi italiani che si dicevano interessati al movimento di LaRouche. Even in Chicago met many Italians who said concerned with the movement of LaRouche. Ha perso la vita insieme al collega Gary Gennazio perché era sceso dall'auto per riempire il serbatoio di benzina, quando entrambi sono stati falciati da un furgone. He died along with colleague Gary Gennazio because it was dropped out of to fill the tank of gasoline, when both were mowed by a van. Le mie condoglianze e quelle del Movimento Solidarietà vanno ai suoi colleghi e amici a Chicago e Leesburg, ed alla famiglia in California. My condolences and those of the Solidarity Movement should be to his colleagues and friends in Chicago and Leesburg, and family in California.
Liliana Gorini Liliana Gorini
(presidente del Movimento Solidarietà) (Chairman of the Solidarity Movement)
You can't even get to this directly as I found this via looking for more Gary Genazzio obituary information from the cult. Even in Italian, his life is soley defined by larouche and the cult.
http://translate.google.com/translat...azio%26hl%3Den

I reread the obit on Gary and you will see how he was shipped around like a sack of potatoes by the cult to
"New York City, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Detroit, St. Louis or Davenport, Iowa ."
Only the media which covered his death have the decency to report that Chicago was his present home, unless Gary Genazzio and John Morris were being shipped to Detroit for Bob Bowen's amusement. You are but a field hand, assigned to go harvest and forage upon command.
How valuable were Gary Genazzio and John Morris to Lyn and the cult? I guess about $3.85 or a $1.93 per person which was the going rate for a can of gas when they died. For some reason, there is no talk about the deaths and some wacky story being circulated which makes no sense. No one wonders just why it it that these two members pased by several gas stations and perhaps by fate, ran out at the only exit with no fuel near by, surrounded by vegatation when one looks a the imagery on computer. But does it matter in cult if the story makes sense? I say no since we have proven conclusively in the several thousand posts here that very few people ever questioned the lunacy no matter how silly it was or defied all logic and common sense. After all, being made in the image of Larouche means that there is no rationale basis of reality, just a Biazarro World to play in and get hurt.
The minute you start to question is the minute you are heading to the exit door.
LYM and LYMettes, next we will be reviewing just why you absolutely have to be run in a certain way by Lyn. It is no longer just for simple mind control and manipulation, but you really are worth millions using The Larouche-Schacht Economic Model of Lyn.
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

07-22-2008, 10:10 PM

howie

http://horoscope.bestdresses.com/blog/?p=48
Who knew?
And this bit of political activism makes my head spin:
http://princessejen.wordpress.com/20...ssons-of-1932/
http://clintondems.com/?s=Larouche
"ladyhawkke" and "hill4pres" appear to be quite taken by the Larouche message.

07-23-2008, 01:01 AM

candor

howie reminds us of the great Keplerian tradition in astrology :)

07-23-2008, 05:52 PM

xlcr4life

3 Attachment(s)

Quote:
Originally Posted by shadok
There is a difference between artistic skills and creativity. Skills, talents are only means. Art in the LC is all self-delusion; the illusion of freedom, not freedom. As a Larouchie, the only way to be "creative" is the leave the cult. In fact, once you become really creative, you have de facto left the org. because the cult is in your head. Nowhere else.

Something is free in the LC/LYM for members. In this Bizarro world of Larouche, the members basically are "free".

+++++++++++++++++++++****** The LAROUCHE-SCHACHT ECONOMIC MODEL++++++++++++++**
The LYM and LYMettes should print this out and do some experimentation with their own lives to see just how Lyn and the cult works in dollars and cents. I was reading the Schiller Insitute pages on Gary Genazzio and focused on his spending 35 years in the LC. This figure is not too far from what many current deadenders, barely clinging to life in Leesburg and outer rim locals have in their tenure. Many of these fine older members were once fine younger members who to this day will still repeat the mantra I often hear on the web casts and classes.
Larouche is building a movement to ........
Bunk! The only movement is your ass dodging cars while inhaling carcinogens , adjusting your cap to avoid the inevitable skin cancer you will be getting from those card table shrine deployments and moving your furniture from one rat hole flat to the next.
If you are a deadender in Leesburg, then you are busy moving your mountain of debts from one charge card to another as you remain in the bottom percentile of poverty in one of the most affluent areas of the US. The other movement you do is to drive your beat up car to the next P/T substitute teaching gig. If you would have ended this lunacy a few decades ago, you could be drawing a nice public school system pension like many ex members you know who are doing that today.
If you are Lyn, then your movement is usually fine food and drink from the plate to the mouth, moving funds from the members to your lifestyle and sometimes moving millions raised by the increasingly skin cancered and lung damaged membership to scam artists who feed your delusions.
To get a grasp of just how much of Gary Genazzio's life was stolen by Lyn, I did some basic math to see how much of his life was spent devoted to and raising money for Lyn. I also looked at just how valuable a Gary Genazzio is to Lyn as long as he never made claims for his health care. What I found was startling as a healthy Gary Genazzio, with his health costs being covered by Medicare and his cost of living being covered by Social Security, was worth a small fortune to Lyn.
Lyn's cost for a Gary Genazzario actually decreased while the value of a Gary Genazzio increased the longer he was doing card table shrines and painting the occasional portrait .By drawing Social Security and Medicare, this provides Lyn with a source of income while not having to actually pay to support Gary or pay into Gary's upkeep. Since the basic payout to a member always revolves around near starvation levels, Lyn and the cult get the value of virtually two members doing a legal work shift by extending the work day . The effective wage given to a LYM or LYMette bypasses the minimum wage since the only payment received in hand is a few bucks per week or day . The overall costs of housing, utilities and other expenses are shifted to the local regional businesses. If you give a member 5 bucks a day, you are only putting out $1,825 a year in cash. This also means that you avoid several hundred dollars in taxes and FICA. Even if you give a member a 100 bucks a week, you still only are giving out $5,200 a year in cash and also save nearly a 1000 in other taxes and FICA.
IRS and local state taxing authorities can see how if Larouche can have the cult put out say 250 people a year in this manner, you can save several hundred thousand a year in those requisite taxes. Do this every year for a decade and you have cheated someone out of millions and millions, Do this for a few decades and you will get into the tens of millions just at the member end of things. Since the income required to live and pay bills may be showing up on another corporate front as an expense, you also save a fortune in corporate and personal taxes.

This aint "doubling the cube" LYM and LYMettes, but it is the closest mathematics to describe your lives you will be coming in contact with. So here we go.
First, we should see what the grand total is for Gary's life with Lyn and how much was spent. To make it easy I did not include leap years into the math and figured that a typical LCer had half of his or her Sunday's off with some shortened Sat. deployments , depending on which region they were in.
This figures out to mean that each year a typical member devotes 325 days a year to the cult and not him or herself. Thus:
Total days Gary spent on Lyn instead of himself is 11,375
35 years x 325 days a year = 11,375
I estimated a typical member day rather conservatively as based on a 15 hour day . This is based on starting at 8 AM one way or the other to going to 10PM. A boiler room worker would start later, but would end later as you usualy had money meetings after that to be yelled at for not hitting quota. We would during intense fundraising divvy up contact cards with different time zones so at 9PM, you could call people where it was 6, 7 or 8 PM to extend the day.
Remember, both Gary Genazzio and John MOrris were still under the umbrella of the cult being next to a Larouchemobile on their way to Detroit. The deaths occured at @ 10PM which meant that they would still be under the umbrella of the cult till at least 11PM . Maybe even later if they went tot he Detroit office and then were sent to their hovel.
The results were staggering!
Total hours spent by Gary over this 35 year period amounted to 170,625 !
15 hours x 11,375 days = 170,625
Now here is where the spread sheets can do wonders. I did this late one night by pencil ,paper and calculator since I did not have Excel nearby and tried to figure out how much Gary would have been paid over that same time frame in the LC to see how much Lyn and the cult did not pay Gary over that time frame. What this does is set a sort of base line to see what a member is worth at the very minimum to Lyn and whether a Schiller Institute blow off obituary was worth it when you are finally lowered into the ground.
The results were staggering and mind boggling.The Larouche/Schacht economic model produces incredible disparities between physical self worth and the percieved added value to one's life by being in a cult. Lyn makes out like a millionare while you end up a pauper.
To do this I had to set some parameters which would allow soome basic math to show the results of a 35 year run in the LC working for Lyn. Here is what I used.
Each year, Gary and a typical member would put in roughly 4,875 hours of labor for the cult based on a 15 hour day and 325 days a year. This is reasonable since your life is dictated by the cult as to location, movement and the hours to start and end that day.
A typical yearly total of hours worked for everyone in the USA is based on a 40 hour work week, or 2080 hours a year. Above 40 hours a week, overtime (OT) rates of 1 1/2 times base salray is used for hourly staff.
What this means is that a typical LCer like Gary works 2,080 regular hours and 2,795 OT hours each year in figuring out what they should be paid. To look at this further, a typical member like Gary Genazzio puts in a total of [b]93.75 hours ]each week,.
4875 hours of work each year divided by 52 weeks a year = 93.75 hours a week
Each Gary Genazzio is actually 2.34 Gary Genazzio's if he worked a normal 40 hour work week.
93.75 hours per week LC shift divided by a normal 40 hour per week shift = 2.34 shifts per member per week ratio.
What this means to Lyn and the cult is that by using his Larouche/Schacht model, Lyn can keep Gary Genazzio alive just enough with bare subsistance cash and still extract the equivalent of having 2.34 people working each and every week without the burden of paying the legally mandated wages that 2.34 employees would need each week or one employee doing incredible overtime!
Every 3 Larouche slave hands are the equivalent of 7 regular, normal working people!!!
Do the math.
3 Larouche members x 2.34 equivalent normal hour workers per LHL member = 7.02 Normal workers.
Slavery did not have this type of cost to worker ratio
US slavery had one Negro worth 3/5ths of a human being while a Larouche field hand is worth only 3/7ths of a human being! Does anyone else think that there is a perversity in having LYM and LYMettes sing Negro Slave Spirituals in the office before going out to the "field"?

Keep in mind that most employees will get paid holidays and time off, something which is unavailable to LC/LYM since they are classified as "volunteers" by the cult . There are no recognised holidays in the LC except for Lyn's birthday it seems. That is a work day as well.
In figuring a monetary value on this I first used an average wage and just multiplied it by the total hours Gary Genazzio worked over 35 years. Since we have to take in to account inflation, I figured that I would be better off using the USA minimum wage for each year Gary was alive in the LC. I then looked up the legal USA minimum wage and wrote down the numbers for the regular wage and the OT wage for each year. I also assumed that the year began with a certain wage and ended with that same wage to make this easy.
I was shocked to realise that Gary Genazzio and John Morris perished before June 30th, making this all the easier as it is half of the calender year.
The minimum wage and OT wage I used was as follows.
1973 $1.60 $2.40
1974 2.00 3.00
1975 2.10 3.15
1976 2.30 3.45
1977 same
1978 2.65 3.98
1979 2.90 4.35
1980 3.10 4.65
1981 3.35 5.03
to
1989 same
1990 3.80 5.70
1991 4.25 6.38
to
1995 same
1996 4.75 7.13
1997 5.15 7.73
to
2007 same
2008 5.85 8.78

What I did next was to set up three columns
REG HOURS OT HOURS TOTAL YEARLY INCOME (TYI)
TYI is based on Gary working for the minimum wage for the first 2080 hours and the remaining 2,795 hours at the OT rate. Lunch was not taken out since the daily hours can vary and this simplifies the math.
Here is what I calculated as the yearly incomes for Gary he would have had if he was being paid the minimum wage each year.
From 1973 to 1981 = $125,478
From 1982 to 1989 = 168,216
1990 = 23,836
From 1991 to 1995 = 133,361
1996 = 29,808
From 1997 to 2007 = 349,547
1/2 of 2008 = 18,354

GRAND TOTAL = $848,600
This Grand total is not all that a gary Genazzio would have been worth, the bare legal minimum wage to Lyn. You also have to include FICA taxes which are about 7.45 combined Social Security and Medicare tax paid by the employer.
You also have to include the payments Lyn would have had to pay in Workman's comp coverage in whatever state Gary was sent to.
You also have to include the yearly health insurance rates which for many years, the LC never paid since no one had coverage except via a spouse who worked or via an entity.
With this in mind, you can see that at the bare minimum, Gary Genazzio was worth a minimum of 1 million dollars over 35 years to Lyn. Since most members could probably make more than the minimum wage, we could easily value Gary to Lyn for 2 or 3 million dollars by using different wage rates in a spread sheet.
Now what happens to Gary at the end of the 35 years he put into Lyn's life instead of his own? right off the top Gary winds up screwing his Social Security benefits since that is based on income being put into the system for determining your check.
This finacial raping of gary Genazzio is not finished yet. What happens in he had a 401K plan at a lower paying job when he joined the LC at 31 ? With his skills I could see him making 15K in 1973. Using a 401K calculator I plugged in a starting salary of 15K with 3% annual raises in income and 15% put into a series of funds which average 8% over the 35 years. This is a good set of figures because the other choice is an IRA and starting off with 2K a year or he could have done both with different percentages and still doing a bit over 2K a year and increasing that each year and letting the icnome compound.
The results are again stagerring
Gary Genazzio would have had a sum of around [b] a half a million dollars[b] at age 66, along with his social security as well as any military benefits.
401(k) Contribution Schedule (2008)
Fund 401(k) for 35 years
Annual Income of $ 15,000.00- increasing 3% per year
Beginning Balance= $ .0
Contribute 15% of Salary -Invested Monthly
Your Employer will match 0% up to 0% of salary - Annually
Annual Interest Rate = 8% - Compounded Annually

Year # -Beginning Balance - You Contribute - Employer Contributes - Earnings- Ending Balance
1 . 0 2,250.00 . 0 81.35 2,331.35
2 2,331.35 2,317.50 .0 270.30 4,919.16
3 4,919.16 2,387.03 .0 479.84 7,786.02
4 7,786.02 2,458.64 .0 711.78 10,956.44
5 10,956.44 2,532.39 .0 968.08 14,456.91
6 14,456.91 2,608.37 .0 1,250.86 18,316.14
7 18,316.14 2,686.62 .0 1,562.43 22,565.19
8 22,565.19 2,767.22 .0 1,905.27 27,237.68
9 27,237.68 2,850.23 .0 2,282.07 32,369.98
10 32,369.98 2,935.74 .0 2,695.75 38,001.47
11 38,001.47 3,023.81 .0 3,149.45 44,174.73
12 44,174.73 3,114.53 .0 3,646.59 50,935.85
13 50,935.85 3,207.96 .0 4,190.86 58,334.67
14 58,334.67 3,304.20 .0 4,786.24 66,425.11
15 66,425.11 3,403.33 .0 5,437.06 75,265.50
16 75,265.50 3,505.43 .0 6,147.99 84,918.92
17 84,918.92 3,610.59 .0 6,924.06 95,453.57
18 95,453.57 3,718.91 .0 7,770.75 106,943.23
19 106,943.23 3,830.47 .0 8,693.96 119,467.66
20 119,467.66 3,945.39 .0 9,700.07 133,113.11
21 133,113.11 4,063.75 .0 10,795.98 147,972.85
22 147,972.85 4,185.66 .0 11,989.17 164,147.68
23 164,147.68 4,311.23 .0 13,287.70 181,746.61
24 181,746.61 4,440.57 .0 14,700.29 200,887.46
25 200,887.46 4,573.79 .0 16,236.37 221,697.62
26 221,697.62 4,711.00 .0 17,906.15 244,314.77
27 244,314.77 4,852.33 .0 19,720.63 268,887.73
28 268,887.73 4,997.90 .0 21,691.73 295,577.36
29 295,577.36 5,147.84 .0 23,832.32 324,557.51
30 324,557.51 5,302.27 .0 26,156.32 356,016.10
31 356,016.10 5,461.34 .0 28,678.76 390,156.20
32 390,156.20 5,625.18 .0 31,415.89 427,197.27
33 427,197.27 5,793.94 .0 34,385.27 467,376.48
34 467,376.48 5,967.75 .0 37,605.90 510,950.13
35 510,950. 13 6,146.79 .0 41,098.26 558,195.17
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Totals $136,039.68 $.0 $422,155.49
www.MyCalculators.com
Copyright© 1997-2008 MyCalculators.com


LYM and LYMettes, have you wondered why Lyn and the cult spend so much time telling you that the world financial system is finished and it is worthless for you to even think about your future instead of Lyn and Helga's present?
Have you ever done basic math and used financial calculators online to figure out just how much you will be losing each year you blow in the cult? Do you think you will be taken care of with a real disability plan and some money , or just shippe dout to your elderly parents when your health costs rise above zero?
Do you think this is all made up or would you like to go back in the posts here to read about what the cult has done to members who cost too much?
Have you ever read in basic financial magazines that a young person who puts in 2K a year for 10 years and then stops, has over a 100K just by reinvestments of that sum over time?
Did you notice that I like to use 2K yearly not just because that was once IRA maximums, but, that is what the cult expected every member to sign over each election cycle for Lyn? I bet we could find several millions in unearned money member would have been enjoying now is that cash was used for them instead of Lyn.
When I first joined, the end of the world as we know it was the theme and everything was the now. Most cults figure out to use the cash they generate to buy apt buildings or large acreage. In the mid 1970s no one in the LC was thinking that 2008 would arrive and there would still be a world left. Consequently, the members who left earlier had time to rebuild their lives and catch up with everything. You may think that a few years spent with the cult is not harmfull. I beg to differ as you will be fallng behind financially as well as education wise .
Gary Genazzio put thousands into Lyn in direct cash contributions. Every multi deadender in the LC has lost on a huge pile of money by never saving a dime. Lyn and the cult spend a lot of time telling the public that you are all just nice young "volunteers" . I do not think that is just for fun. The regional businesses and LPAC can save millions collectively in payroll taxes, business taxes, health costs, wages, OT wages, holiday pay, disability coverage, IRS taxes as well as not having to comply with many other legal requirements for you.
No legal US employer, not even farm workers and illegal aliens could be treated as a Larouche "volunteer" is run with existing laws and regulations. Every filthy NC would be on trial for harrasment, every office would be shut down for violating numerous privacy and harrasment laws as well as age discrimination. Your cars would be impounded as hazardous to employees. You would be prohibited from exceeding the limits for toxic exposure while doing street sales.
This is why Lyn runs this as a mafia/cult and has been doing the same thing over and over for decades. You can do things in and to a cult which you can not do in the real world
Since doing the numbers I read the obituary of John Morris and see that he has 26 years into the cult. Just using the same numbers with the minimum wage I used for Gary Genazzio I calculated that a living John Morris was worth a staggering
$723,122 to Lyn over his lifespan in the cult
Just doing a guesstimate of the savings in all taxes and benefits show that John Morris was worth a cool million at the lowest legal US wage to Lyn.
On the night of the ending of Gary Genazzio and Johnn Morris's death we can see that the both of them were worth a bare minimum of
$1,571,722 just using the minimum wage
The cult would have saved over
$110,020 in FICA taxes
How much is a gallon of gas folks? You can starve a LYM and LYMette, but you can not starve an engine
Now you know why the cult tries very hard to make sure that LYM and LYMettes are classified as "Volunteers". Now you know why when you look at the LPAC expenses you do see payments of a 100 dollars to you (if you are lucky) instead of itemized payroll checks. If you do see a payroll check, is that a legitimate figure or a dilluted figure?
The amount of money owed to members in back pay due to the apparent flagrant violations of basic work rules and the minimum wage is into the tens of millions based on what we see with just two members here. The amount of money which could be owed to state and federal tax and labor offices is staggering
Srew Maestro Briano, you need Bono singing a song to rescue LYM and LYMettes from this exploitation on a telethon.
Do the math with Bruce director and see how much You lost this year. In fact, why not use Bruce himself to do these calculations and see how much Lyn extracted from him? The only reason Lyn does not have the cult extract Gold teeth from members is because they never had a dental plan to put something of value in their mouths.
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

07-23-2008, 09:55 PM

realme

Quote:
Originally Posted by xlcr4life

You may think that a few years spent with the cult is not harmfull. I beg to differ as you will be fallng behind financially as well as education wise .
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

xlcer's got that right, although I haven't felt it much until recently. I joined when I was in my early 20s, quit in my mid-30s, struggled to update my education and get established in a new career, and now, nearing 60, I'm doing great. I have an interesting and unconventional career which pays well above the median salary, so I can't complain. But I've been contemplating career moves and educational opportunities available to me at my employer, and the fact that I have about 10 years left in my working life really affects my choices. There are some things I just don't feel like taking on, although I would have loved to do them if I was 40 or even 50. Most of my colleagues are 15-20 years younger and have lots of options.
Most people my age are about to retire. Since I didn't start saving for retirment and I didn't have children until I was nearly 40, I'm not able to retire for a while. I don't mind having to work another 10-15 years; I'm in good health, thank goodness, I like my work, and I don't feel like retiring. Still, it would be nice to have the choice, just in case.
But, then again, my choices are infinitely preferable to what's available to some of the folks in Leesburg, most of who, despite everything, remain dear to my heart.
LYMers: You WILL grow older, and you WILL wish you had done something different. I guarantee it.

07-24-2008, 01:26 AM

localgreek

[QUOTE=xlcr4life;358060]Something is free in the LC/LYM for members. In this Bizarro world of Larouche, the members basically are "free".
The amount of money owed to members in back pay due to the apparent flagrant violations of basic work rules and the minimum wage is into the tens of millions based on what we see with just two members here. The amount of money which could be owed to state and federal tax and labor offices is staggering
Srew Maestro Briano, you need Bono singing a song to rescue LYM and LYMettes from this exploitation on a telethon.
Do the math with Bruce director and see how much You lost this year. In fact, why not use Bruce himself to do these calculations and see how much Lyn extracted from him? The only reason Lyn does not have the cult extract Gold teeth from members is because they never had a dental plan to put something of value in their mouths.
[email]xlcr4life
+++++++++++++++++++++
localgreek: brilliant xlcrforlife; brilliant post; How is it that these violations are not reported; should they not be reported?? how else can this be dealt with except with the law? you are, of course, right to focus on the youngsters; it is tragic to see them waste their life; by the way, how many of these LYMers are there in total?
Is it your opinion that the deadenders in Leesburg are basically just write-offs without any possibility for help? Is it that thirty or forty years in the cult really does chew up your brain and you can no longer live in the normal world?
Every time that I speak to a Larouche member they rave about how they are happy to be there and to be working to change the world. Go figure, because I can't.
I recall reading here recently about one member who sat beside Larouche and was smitten for life; I don't get it and can't; I saw LL on TV a couple of times and found him utterly physically, emotionally, and intellectually repulsive.

07-24-2008, 02:11 AM

howie

This feels like an item of nit-picking, and I don't know what whoever's project this is should do with this, but regarding:
<i>Until 7 December 1941, the vast majority of Americans -- both left and right -- were firm isolationists.</i>
Is a factoid that's not entirely accurate which has sort of become something of a crutch when discussing this period, and at best I can say it depends on your definition of "firm isolationists". I guess I'd have to go search through public opinion polls and place them next to unfolding events, but I don't even think "vast majority" fits public opinion on December 11, 1941. Public opinion had been firmly against joining the war, but had steadily floated in that direction -- and on behalf of supporting the British war effort, first conditionally than more or less unconditionally. Roosevelt paced public opinion publically, nudging it forward when he could, and was covertly a few steps ahead in having the US in war. I think the prevailing public opinion on December 10, 1941 was a Fatalistic sense of inevitibility.
Nonetheless the various strains of isolationist sentiment is necessary to understand Larouche's anti-British obsession and the "source" of his propaganda outwork (whatever the point of it all is).
<i>It is also worth recalling the role played by the American Communist Party in promoting leftwing isolationist sentiment. From 23 August 1939 till the day Hitler invaded the Soviet Union on 22 June 1941, the CP tirelessly campaigned against American support for England. The party argued that British imperialism – and pro-British financiers inside America like the Morgan group in New York – posed the real threat to world peace. Churchill, not Hitler, was the real "warmonger." Anti-interventionists on both the left and the right viewed World War II as essentially a repeat of World War I. Both then and now, British imperialism wanted to trick America into fighting on its side in an imperialist war between rival capitalist powers.</i>

07-24-2008, 01:57 PM

borisbad

Just thinking about the press coverage of the tax evasion settlement with Al Sharpton and the Feds. At least in that case, Sharpton actually came up with a $1 million to clean up some of his back taxes. Of course Sharpton has far more political sense than LaRouche, and doesn't keep his members in slave conditions as does the LaRouche movement. Point is, if the Feds used taxes to take Sharpton down a notch imagine what they could do to LaRouche.

07-24-2008, 09:46 PM

earnest_one

"Get LaRouche" Well, Borisbad, they did take him down a notch (or two or ten) long ago, but the absence of any real activity, given the multiple wild transgressions since then gives one pause for wonder.
My own theory, in line with that of many others, is that LL still has solid ties to right-wing elements within the government. He is useful and, therefore, protected (to some extent).

07-24-2008, 10:53 PM

localgreek

Quote:
Originally Posted by earnest_one
Well, Borisbad, they did take him down a notch (or two or ten) long ago, but the absence of any real activity, given the multiple wild transgressions since then gives one pause for wonder.
My own theory, in line with that of many others, is that LL still has solid ties to right-wing elements within the government. He is useful and, therefore, protected (to some extent).

++++++++++++++Localgreek: What you say is of interest Earnest One; could you please elaborate a bit on how LL is useful. I have wondered why he is untouched now for so many years. Thanks.

07-24-2008, 11:26 PM

poe

Right Wing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by earnest_one
Well, Borisbad, they did take him down a notch (or two or ten) long ago, but the absence of any real activity, given the multiple wild transgressions since then gives one pause for wonder.
My own theory, in line with that of many others, is that LL still has solid ties to right-wing elements within the government. He is useful and, therefore, protected (to some extent).


I don't think that his relationship with the Clintons is as much in his head as some here seem to believe. Lyn did seem awful desparate to get them back in power.

07-25-2008, 12:36 AM

borisbad

From various sites ostensibly linked to Hillary Clinton like Puma and others, it would seem that LaRouche is attempting to link up with discontented Hillary zealots who can't get over that she resigned from the primary race. Like Reaganites in the past, they might consider LaRouche useful, but I highly doubt that the Clintons themselves would see any benefit being linked to a right wing lunatic anti-Semite. Remember the problems to Hillary's image a while back when she was photographed smooching with Arafat's wife on a trip to the Middle East.
While there are rightwing elements who may like LaRouche for his attack dog outlook, there are many other rightwing and other blogs available today that can spout off more effective propaganda (think Swift Boat Veterans). And certainly Bush and the neo-cons have no reason to protect LaRouche from any possible IRS or other investigation.

07-25-2008, 02:06 AM

poe

Quote:
Originally Posted by borisbad
From various sites ostensibly linked to Hillary Clinton like Puma and others, it would seem that LaRouche is attempting to link up with discontented Hillary zealots who can't get over that she resigned from the primary race. Like Reaganites in the past, they might consider LaRouche useful, but I highly doubt that the Clintons themselves would see any benefit being linked to a right wing lunatic anti-Semite. Remember the problems to Hillary's image a while back when she was photographed smooching with Arafat's wife on a trip to the Middle East.


Why would posing with Arafat's wife hurt Hillary's image?

07-25-2008, 02:55 AM

earnest_one

LL is a Businessman LocalGreek,ALL:
Sorry, but I haven't the time now to give an in-depth answer. Some of it is simply common sense and in the public record. For example, when LaRouche poses as a Democrat he makes the Dems look foolish. His org is well known for running dirty tricks against all kinds of people. Various right-wing elements (including, supposedly, our own government) use/used the org to publish slanders and attack people in ways that are not so easy to get away with via normal channels.
Another example publicized, I believe, by Dennis King is this: The org spied on anti-apartheid groups for the South African government. This is anti-progressive, surely, and goes against the stated aims of the org.
One of my main sources comes from the economist Michael Hudson, who was taken for a good deal of money by LL. He claims (openly) that it appears that LL came to some agreement with very high up elements in the US government (CIA, etc) in the late seventies. Apparently, only a few people know the full details and they are not talking. The gist of the agreement was that LL did work for the US in the form of taking positions in other countries – positions such as being against the IMF, or against the US government, etc. This would attract like-minded people. LL would then communicate with them but only to gather intelligence info in order to write up reports on these people and/or organizations for sale to the US government.
The cental theme here is that he poses as a progressive but ONLY to spy on progressives.
Apparently he went too far during the 1980s, he thought that he was untouchable (via his secret relationship/agreement with the CIA, etc.). This explains why the org did such wild things, without worrying about prosecution – the credit card stuff, the promissory notes, etc. – they thought they were above the law. But LL miscalculated and they went after him. Basically, the story is that he was told to cool it inside the US (the stealing of money) but that he could do whatever he wanted outside the US.
The bottom line is that LL is basically a businessman. One of his major customers was the US government. But he did not care who paid him – he simply wanted to make money.

07-25-2008, 09:34 AM

shadok

Quote:
Originally Posted by earnest_one
My own theory, in line with that of many others, is that LL still has solid ties to right-wing elements within the government. He is useful and, therefore, protected (to some extent).

I think that nobody cares anymore about LL op. What operation is this anyway? A couple of hundred kids selling kinda literature in the streets and singing Bach? LL's intelligence op has vanished (it used to be stronger during the 80s thanks to the boomers), why would Hilary or some secret right-wing elements within the government even bother considering "LL's help"? What "help" anyway? Nothing that comes from LL's literature is taken seriously. At least by ppl in charge. LL has no mass effect either, and never did. So what?
The LL org is a closed fantasy world. When he was freed from jail, the "word" in the org was that Bill Clinton was behind this (even though we campaigned against him, calling him a a southern fried fascist and running dirty ops, maybe on behalf of some GOPs. I say maybe...)
Since LL is a man with obsessions (the least we can say), he still believes in this fantasy. Hence Hilary.
LL is a madman who believes in his own fantasies and lies. He is the archetypal madman who thinks he is Napoleon... but this would-be Napoleon took over the house like in EA Poe's "System of Dr. Tarr and Prof. Fether" and succeeded convincing us at one point he is Napoleon (BP sessions). Hence his cult.

07-25-2008, 08:36 PM

earnest_one

Back on Message

I thought that the "thrust" of the open question was: Why is LL allowed (significant) transgressions by the US government?
Obviously there are serious problems associated with individuals taking him on (this is clear, and quite scary). But one would think that the US government, if interested, could bring him to court on multiple counts of fraud, associated with a host of different law-breaking activities.
My claim of high-level contacts (or protection) may be ridiculed here, but until the a..hole is dealt true justice, I believe that this is the reason for his "immunity" even though he "appears" wildly impotent, politically.
Note, however, that he still has a network of operatives, worldwide. How many "private citizens" can claim that?

07-26-2008, 01:35 AM

borisbad

I don't quite understand where Borismaglev is coming from in the sense that many of those who have left, left many years ago, therefore whatever might have occurred to older members would well have gone beyond any relevant statute of limitations. Secondly, members are encouraged to think of themselves as volunteers, so the fact that they may not get paid for "volunteer" work may not give them cause to sue, although the IRS could definitely determine that all this "volunteer" work has actual cash value that should be taxed. Obviously if there are creditors that haven't been paid they would have every right to sue or maybe even move for criminal prosecutions.
The other thing that the gov't can do that individuals can't is go back beyond the statute of limitations by showing that an enterprise is engaged in an "ongoing" criminal enterprise, therefore, even acts that occurred years ago can be part of an ongoing pattern of activity. There are also civil penalties (and civil awards) under RICO and similar statutes.
But speaking personally, having left over twenty years ago, whatever I could complain of, like unpaid loans to the org'n, those rights lapsed years ago.

07-26-2008, 04:27 AM

earnest_one

Legal Obligations As far as I know -- and I could well be wrong --the Gov has a legal obligation to enforce FICA payment laws for workers.
If, for example, Kronberg was under orders to withhold these payments and/or there was a conspiracy, headed by LL, to defraud workers of their rightful FICA payments, then there is just cause for opening up an investigation and demanding internal documents (for example).
Other than this, the pattern of deaths is another reason for looking into LL's org and the working conditions of volunteers, irrespective of any complaints by the volunteers themselves. Surely, some of the parents are upset and have notified authorities.
Finally, I rather doubt that the various dirty tricks operations including threats and death threats have stopped. Some of this activity is clearly illegal and the Gov has an obligation to protect its citizens from harassment, especially if the problem is systemic and not limited to a particular person or group.
There are probably better examples, but I produced these in a few seconds. But again, I could well be wrong.

07-26-2008, 06:02 AM

eaglebeak

Cloud Cuckoo Land Several points in response to all of the above.
1. The U.S. government did take Lyn down a peg, starting with the October 1986 Federal aid on his "HQ" in Leesburg, and continuing through the 1987/88/89/90 etc. trials of LaRouche and oodles of his followers, including the Boston trial of LaRouche, Spannaus, Steinberg, Steinberg, Goldstein, et al., and including the Federal imprisonments of LaRouche, Wertz, Spannaus, Small, Billington and a few others, and the Virginia state trials and imprisonments of Ascher, Billington, Gallagher, Gallagher, Hecht, Phau, etc. (and all those plea deals), and the New York State trials of Kronberg, Primack, Speed, and Canning (and imprisonment of Primack). And let's not forget that LaRouche was convicted, among other things, of defrauding the IRS. Believe me, the IRS has an eye on him.
Whatever the org is now, it was worse and more dangerous before those trials, believe me.
2. LaRouche's connections in the "corridors of power" are not all "right-wing." Certainly his Russian connections are not. Nor are his Israeli connections, like the late leftist Maxim Ghilan.
And as for American circles, his "intelligence" connections (such as they are) include the leftwing CIA crowd, for example, of folks like Ray McGovern, Joe Wilson and Valerie Plame, former arms inspector Scott Ritter, etc. Then there's old Bobby Ray Inman, who has been a longtime contact, and is certainly no fan of the GOP, the conservatives, Bush, etc.
I'm not speculating about any of the above, by the way.
As to Michael Hudson as a source, I think he's a very mixed bag indeed. I say this having known him well personally. He has a lot of theories about LaRouche and everything else under the sun, but I think many of them are questionable, and I would take them with a grain of salt.
So, inasmuch as the U.S. government did go after Lyn, in the Reagan-Bush years (we all remember George H.W. Bush's remark on the campaign trail in 1988, don't we? Someone asked him about LaRouche and Bush said, "Isn't he in jail yet?" Well, no--not then. But by January 1989, he sure was), and inasmuch as his connections are by no means all right-wing, I think a number of the conclusions being drawn above are rather hasty.
3. As to suing LaRouche--maybe most former LaRouche types haven't attacked Lyn in their own names,but Molly Kronberg not only went after LaRouche in her interview with Chip Berlet, and through other avenues, but I know for a fact that she consulted with lawyers. My informed guess is she isn't shrinking from that prospect....
The question is, what do you sue this bozo for? If/when someone formulates a legally sound theory, let me know, because no one will be happier or readier than I. Unless it's Molly.
4. Finally, I can assure you there were no orders to Kronberg not to pay FICA. In fact, when Lyn found out about it--that is, when he found out the extremes to which his organization's chiseling was driving Kronberg--he flipped completely, because Lyn was terrified that Kronberg's failure to pay FICA would somehow land Lyn back in prison. (The IRS and all that....)
Lyn terrified is not an edifying prospect. One of the things he started saying was that Ken had a "criminal mind." What an obscenity, coming out of that mouth! Lyn is the quintessential criminal mind!
Also, throughout the period leading up to his death, Kronberg was in negotiations with the IRS toward what's called an "offer in compromise" over the taxes. There was no suggestion of fraud or wrongdoing, just inability to pay. If other things hadn't supervened, all having to do with vicious Lyn and his vicious catspaws, Kronberg would probably have succeeded in negotiating that, and closing down the companeis in an orderly fashion.
But one of the things Kronberg couldn't face was the venom coming his way after he closed the companies. That's why he told his wife, "We'll be vilified like you've never seen," and that's why he killed himself the very week when he would have shut down the companies. PMR and WorldComp survived him by only two days--and the fact of being forced to close them was another contributing factor to his death, the story of which has never (yet) been fully told.
So I don't think the lawsuit we all want to file can go directly after the FICA withholdings. It's much more a case of brainwashing, mind control, cult behavior--that sort of thing.
Of course, those who were not paid wages for years and years may well have great cases to bring, and I urge you one and all to do so. Others may have cases of a more personal nature, cult-related and so forth. Others may have been induced to give money that wasn't really theirs (their company's, perhaps?) to LPAC, or perhaps they witnessed illegalities large and small that some law enforcement person would be interested in.
Maybe the parent of some youth would like to sue over their child's being medicated for depression by Dr. Barbara and Dr. Ned. Barbara runs--or ran, but maybe Lyn's busted her by now--quite a little mind-control operation there for the youth. Actually, an overall control operation. Is there a parent who's interested in pursuing this?
As Mao might have said, let a thousand lawsuits bloom.

07-26-2008, 05:44 PM

poe

Quote:
Originally Posted by eaglebeak
Several points in response to all of the above.
1. The U.S. government did take Lyn down a peg, starting with the October 1986 Federal aid on his "HQ" in Leesburg, and continuing through the 1987/88/89/90 etc. trials of LaRouche and oodles of his followers, including the Boston trial of LaRouche, Spannaus, Steinberg, Steinberg, Goldstein, et al., and including the Federal imprisonments of LaRouche, Wertz, Spannaus, Small, Billington and a few others, and the Virginia state trials and imprisonments of Ascher, Billington, Gallagher, Gallagher, Hecht, Phau, etc. (and all those plea deals), and the New York State trials of Kronberg, Primack, Speed, and Canning (and imprisonment of Primack). And let's not forget that LaRouche was convicted, among other things, of defrauding the IRS. Believe me, the IRS has an eye on him.
Whatever the org is now, it was worse and more dangerous before those trials, believe me.
2. LaRouche's connections in the "corridors of power" are not all "right-wing." Certainly his Russian connections are not. Nor are his Israeli connections, like the late leftist Maxim Ghilan.
And as for American circles, his "intelligence" connections (such as they are) include the leftwing CIA crowd, for example, of folks like Ray McGovern, Joe Wilson and Valerie Plame, former arms inspector Scott Ritter, etc. Then there's old Bobby Ray Inman, who has been a longtime contact, and is certainly no fan of the GOP, the conservatives, Bush, etc.
I'm not speculating about any of the above, by the way.


Those are all some very good people that you mention, but I don't think they can be the ones pulling LaRouche's strings today. That would not explain his current behaviour. Scott Ritter, for example, spent Clinton's entire 8 years opposing the Bush-Clinton sanctions on Iraq. He accused Madeline Albright of mass murder. Why would he, or anyone who thought like him, want to sabotage Obama and help try to bring the Clintons back to power?

07-26-2008, 09:42 PM

candor

Another kook. Oy.

07-27-2008, 04:05 AM

poe

Quote:
Originally Posted by borismaglev
3. The Clinton machine got LaRouche out of jail whereas the Chicago Democratic machine from where Obama hails was an enemy of LaRouche way back when.


Actually, without LaRouche's Anti-Drug Coalition, Daley never would have become State's Attorney in the first place, and might not be Mayor today. His office used to send representatives to speak at ADC meetings, even though he knew about the LaRouche connection. So, I don't know where you get that the Chicago Democratic Machine was a enemy of LaRouche from way back. The Illinois Democratic Party did freak out quite a bit when Hart and Fairchild won the primary, but the orders to do that came from the National Party not from Chicago.

07-27-2008, 06:07 AM

earnest_one

Oligarchical Struggles Gone Awry Words have no meaning.
Statements have no purpose.
Make anything up as you go along.
Nobody cares: The inner elites are stagnant and inner ears are receiving the wrong frequencies.
Blah, Blah, Blah.

07-27-2008, 07:41 AM

scrimscraw

Quote:
Originally Posted by earnest_one
Words have no meaning.
Statements have no purpose.
Make anything up as you go along.
Nobody cares: The inner elites are stagnant and inner ears are receiving the wrong frequencies.
Blah, Blah, Blah.

The problem, as far as I can tell, is that most ex-LCers seems to still carry around with them certain reflexes built up during their LC days. Depending on what days those were, and depending on where they locate themselves at present on the political spectrum, you can still get some whack sh*t out of ex-LCers that is like LHL once removed.
I respect everyone here who found their way out of the LC maze, but that doesn't mean that everyone has found their way back to solid ground, IMHO.
And Earnest One, I'm not talking about you. I'm making a generalization bouncing off other comments.

07-27-2008, 12:49 PM

Elsie

Quote:
Originally Posted by borismaglev
The Obama movement is Nazi in character (anti-Semitism, anti-Americanism, mass rallies in Germany, intimidation of in-party rivals, etc.)

Some effects of inhaling carbon monoxide while selling LaRouche literature never really heal.

07-27-2008, 03:19 PM

xlcr4life

Yes, but Michelle's spending has increased as a result?

Quote:
Originally Posted by borismaglev
Have you noticed that Jeff Steinberg's "weekly" radio show has been dropped from the LaRouchepac website after it had last been updated over a month ago (June 20)?


LYM and LYMettes are so clueless about how this cult works that they need to be informed about how things happen in one part of the cult while you are working around the clock. Michelle S had a taste of the good life when she cashed her paychecks . She does not have any children of her own , bu has numerous relatives and friends who have children whom she adores. The Steinbergs are not sleeping 8 people in gtheir bedroom and they are not getting evicted every couple of months for no rent payments. They have a nice home, a winter/ski get away, credit cards for travel and two things almost no one else in the LC/LYM have.
A source of outside income.
A life outside of the LC.
The outside income used to come from just Michelle but now include Jeff. Jeff has a sgteady gig ghostwriting for some newsletters and can make some good checks when he gets them printed.
This money is not signed over to Lyn and I do not belive that Lyn and the LC know the true extent of this. These articles do not revolve around Lyn or certain LC lunacy, but fit within what conspiracy oriented people like to read. The checks do not go to Lyn , but go to Jeff adn Michelle to stay alive and catch up with enjoying some of the good life.
[b]Jeff and Michelle, unlike the LYM and LYMettes have extensive relationships and friendships on a level which is exactly the opposite of what is expected from the LYM. They devote a lot of time to dining going to movies, family get togethers and connvincing those outsiders that they are "normal" people.
Lyn may not know and I do not know to what extent Jeff and Michelle could be making money which is kept from him while using LC/LYM research, computers, files, contacts etc.
If Lyn does know this, then the LC/LYM/LYMettes are far bigger dopes than I ever imagined today. Jeff has his own delusion of runnning his own group after Lyn dies in a sort of US version of what the EURO members set up after they left or were purged like this :
http://www.spree-athen-ev.de/
http://www.solon-line.de/
The Steinberg's may wish to do what Bill E did after he left the LC or how Tarpley reinvented himself.
Who knows how this will all turn out, but Lyn gets angrier when you cost him money. Lyn once had a discussion with Harley Schlanger about how to squeeze more money out of the LYM. They actually discussed an idea of having each regional office pay a "Franchise fee" each week to use Lyn's genius!
A real smart wag viewed this as a "Royalty" fee since Lyn views himself as Royalty and the LYM owe everything in thier miserable lives to him.
In any event LYM and LYMettes, ask yourself how come the Steinbergs spend more time partying with "ex" members Paul and Mary G than with you bums? How many birthday parties, movie nights, dinner dates and vacations did you get from them?
Lyn may think that the Steinberg's are slavishly devoted to him, but the CC statements do not indicate that.
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

07-27-2008, 03:29 PM

xlcr4life

Local Greek, most older members who wanted to leave have left with a big chunk taking off after the Ken Kronberg death last year. It is like the Neil Young song, "Rust never sleeps" "
It's better to burn out
Than to fade away"

Most LC/LYM just fade away. The damage which is done over the years varies among people. Cults count on the embarassment of you being in the cult to not talk about this. I think we learned that when we found that we could steal millions and millions and the elderly victims were often too embarassed to admit they were taken or were swindled to local law enforcement and their families.
It would just take a few current or recent LYM members to file the appropriate complaints to start a peek into just how much in back taxes, FICA and other shenanigans have been done by the cult. Since we have been having so much fun here at factnet.org and a few other places, a lot of money has been paid out by the cult to satisfy certain , ahem, legal issues with the FEC and the IRS I believe.
I still think the next step is to see how a cult which claims to be Democrats and channels FDR violates virtualy every principal of dignity for the comon man by screwing the members.

Boris Bad, there is an expression in Hollywood where someone who is a nobody is described as "So meaningless that he can't even get arrested in this town".That is how Lyn and the cult are viewed. As far as I can tell, the cult has not returned to doing bunko fundraising from the elderly with promisorry notes. If you were in the LC in the 1907s, Lyn had this big thing about"Primative Accumulation".
That was a description about how when captialism begind to die off, it will be forced to eat itself and accelerate the collapse. Remember that I always find it strange after leaving the cult that Lyn actually lays out what will be done to the members year after year after year. The present downwards spiral of the cult is comparable to an infected body which is just feeding the parasites and cancers until all is wasted away.
The primative accumulation of Lyn is probably different from what Marxists believe. Since Lyn has corrected Marx, like he has everyone else on the planet, we use his version.

In Wikipedia I looked this up on a whim and found that things can be spooky.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primitive_accumulation_of_capital
"But market expansion is not simply a process of the peaceful, gradual increase of commercial trade. It is also a story of violence and conquest, piracy and plunder, theft and robbery, which destroys natural economy:"
Boy that sure sounds like the LC/LYM.
Wonders of wonders, it seems that the minimum wage is going up today for people who are at that level. Sorry to say that it will NOT be going up for LYM and LYMettes. Yet another end of the word mobilization is under way to save humanity and you know what that means in the LC/LYM.
The minimum wage is now
$6.65 an hour with an OT rate of $9.98
What this means is that a LYM and LYMette , doing the same hours outside the cult would have a yearly income as follows.
Regular income = $ 13,362
OT income = 27,894
Total income = $ 41,256

WOW!!!! This means that a "couple" in the LC/LYM could in one year have a combined family income of $82,512 . That figure would put them right in middle class territory just making the US minumum wage.
Lyn and Barbara have other plans though. Well, just Lyn as Barbara just goes along with this nonsense as she would have to admit to herself that this was all a bad nightmare and face the wrath of Zeke. Zeke used to pound his chest on the old days to scare you cause "Zeke can kill" (inside joke). Today, when Zeke has his chest pounded it usually for CPR.

But always remember Barbara, there are big rewards for spilling the beans on all of this which can be you and Zeke's financial lifeboat. Zeke is a 24/7 reminder to you of a member who has taken many dangerous blows to the head and had his health placed at the bottom of the list of concerns. Think about how many times poor Zeke had to drive Lyn to take care of his annoyances and scratches while Zeke ignored his. In the irony of ironies, your husband ends up trying to make ends meet and not starving by driving the elderly to their appointments for a few bucks.
You gave up you health , savings, education, children and even hair color for a madman where in one phone call, you and Zeke can be placed on that LC iceberg.

What is so funny to read in this article about the minum wage increase
http://finance.comcast.net/www/news.html?
x=http://www.origin.comcast.akadns.net/data/news/2008/07/23/1017100.xml
is this line at the end.
"You can't get a dishwasher for minimum wage," he said.

07-27-2008, 03:47 PM

xlcr4life

Quote:
Originally Posted by xlcr4life
What is so funny to read in this article about the minum wage increase
http://finance.comcast.net/www/news.html?
x=http://www.origin.comcast.akadns.net/data/news/2008/07/23/1017100.xml
is this line at the end.
"You can't get a dishwasher for minimum wage," he said.


"You can't get a dishwasher for minimum wage," he said.
How true, however, Lyn can get 2.34 LYM and LYMettes for the minimum wage in theory and in reality can pay a LYM or LYMettes for one day what a person with the minum wage can make in one hour.
Think about that for a second . With the OT minimum wage of $9/98 , Lyn can have the NCs give out 10 bucks a day and get thanked for those crumbs! I do believe that I have stumbled upon another portion of the Larouche-Schacht economic model. I bet that if we plotted the daily members stipend over the entire existance of the LC/LYM, it would closely correlate with on hour the OT rate with the minimum wage as the base.
Daily cash pay for 15 hours of Larouche labor Camp = One hour x OT wage rate (1.5 x minimum wage) in non larouche run labor.
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

07-27-2008, 05:06 PM

‘‘zisepsyche7‘‘

finally I am back.xlcr...we got paid in checks? why is it so important how we got paid? I know some yutes who don't get money at all or any ( oh the stories I could tell u!) What were your other questions?

07-27-2008, 10:52 PM

poe

Quote:
Originally Posted by borismaglev
To me Mayor Jane "Burn The Witch" Byrne is "way back." She ran for mayor in 1978 and served from 1979 on.
2. The Chicago Democratic Party never listened and neven will listen to the "National Party." Since Richard J. Daley, Chicago Democrats believe that the "National Party" is only good as a place of exile where the machine demotes its failed local Chicago politicians.
3. To imagine that a Richard M. Daley needed help from LaRouchies to win an election in Illinois is -- shall we say -- rich. LaRouche often boasts imaginary influences over historical events. Let's refrain from imitating him here.


When current Mayor Daley first ran for States Attorney the district, other than Chicago itself, was mostly Republican. His opponent was a liberal Rebublican, whose name escapes me, but who happened to support decrimilization of marijuana. As the National Anti Drug Coalition, we knocked on every single door in the conservative Republican Cook County suburbs with leaflets, magazines, and arguments that denounced the Republican candidate as being pro-drugs. As a result, Daley carried these areas. After that, his office sent speakers to Anti-Drug coalition events on several occasions. The anti-Byrne campaign was because Byrne was viewed by both LaRouche and the Chicago Machine as being an enemy of Machine politics. LaRouche's relationship to the Chicago Democratic Machine was not adversarial at all. It was in some ways very similar to his relationship with the Reagan Administration.

07-28-2008, 12:00 AM

earnest_one

Tired Scrimscraw,
I agree with your words/sentiments. Well put and quite humane (not surprising, coming from you).
But the "Obama is a Nazi" thing seemed a bit over the top. Perhaps he is, but I have yet to see any evidence. Moreover, neither he nor his movement qualify, at least in my meager opinion, as a cult or cult-like phenomenon.

07-28-2008, 05:00 AM

scrimscraw

Lynism sans Lyn

Quote:
Originally Posted by earnest_one
Scrimscraw,
... the "Obama is a Nazi" thing seemed a bit over the top. Perhaps he is, but I have yet to see any evidence. Moreover, neither he nor his movement qualify, at least in my meager opinion, as a cult or cult-like phenomenon.

From my perspective (others' MMV), "Obama is a Nazi" is a far right talk radio meme that bears lilttle relationship to reality. If someone wants to swap the gross generalizations of LHL for those of Rush and Sean, fine (and hey! they overlap somewhat). But this board is not the best place to try to retail that.
I am sensitive to the fact that it would be easy to derail and sidetrack the discussions here into partisan arguments for one side of the Left/Right divide against the other. Thus I generally try to avoid getting on someone's case because they are apparently on the other side of the divide.
If Mollie K contributed $$ to GWB, I can live with that. If Earnest One feels positive about Obama, fine. My focus here is what has the LC done to its own supporters over the decades and where is LHL coming from. The upcoming election is, all in all, a whole other matter that I find unrelated to the purpose of this board.

07-28-2008, 10:58 AM

eaglebeak

Lyn--the Ultimate Apolitical

Reflecting on the most recent exchanges on this board, over LaRouche-Left vs. LaRouche-Right:
It's my view that one can be a left-winger or a right-winger and still have some claim to integrity and sanity. One cannot be a LaRouchist, not in this day and age, and have a claim to either.
The fundamental truth is that LaRouche is totally apolitical. He started life as the offspring of a conspirofreak rightwinger (LHL Sr.), and then became a conspirofreak leftwinger (SWP and all that).
The "LaRouche movement," ICLC, whatever, started life as some kind of left group ("What Only Communists Know"), moved to and sojourned on the far right (Willis Carto et al.), moved back to the "left," but it was really the liberal left, not the hard left, with Bill Clinton and that whole thing, and on and on and on.
Lyn could care less. He needs two things: As xlcr emphasizes, he needs Money Money Money, and he needs adulation from a cult organized around his "personality," such as it is. The political position is irrelevant and changes in psychedelic fashion.
The Labor Committee is a cult, not a political org. It's about LHL, not about politics. I remember from my decades-long experience with it how amazed I continued to be (shows how dumb I was) that almost no one in the org, including some of my closest friends, showed any real interest in politics as such. Details like polls, and election laws, and political blocs, and voting records--are you kidding? Lyn couldn't have cared less.
This explains, e.g., how Lyn could spend the last 16 years, at least, railing against the DLC without ever noticing, apparently, that his boy Bill (Clinton) used to run it.
This explains how Lyn could go from excoriating Clinton as "Southern fried fascism" to hailing him as the most intelligent President we've had in x years.
How Lyn could go from sending Margaret Thatcher congratulatory telegrams when she denounced Europe-1992 as fascism, to blaming Original Sin on the British.
The guy is not serious, politically. He's not about politics. No sense confusing ourselves trying to figure out whether he's left or right.
What Lyn does is steal souls, kill minds. He's a psychic vampire. And also a figure of considerable fun, because he doesn't have a clue about the world around him, including such interesting figures as the ever-amusing Steinbergs.
And also a killer--Ken Kronberg, Jeremiah Duggan, Gary Genazzio, John Morris, and many more.
And also in his dotage. I'm not an ageist--I don't think--not being in the first flush of youth myself, but good heavens! Here's a guy who's nearly 86, losing whatever complement of marbles he started out with, attacking John McCain for being too old! Maybe John McCain is "too old," whatever that means, and maybe he's not--but Lyn, on top of being insane and delusional and narcissistic, is also now on the downward slide into senility.
Too bad we can't all say, "Move on, folks. Nothing to see here." In Lyn, in himself, there is nothing. Literally. But his effect on others is devastating, still, and that's why we need to be concerned.
And of course, friends of Ken Kronberg haven't forgiven him and are not ready to move on. They're still ready to rumble.

07-28-2008, 05:19 PM

scrimscraw

Quote:
Originally Posted by borismaglev
The Labor Committee was, is and always will be until its death a Stalinist personality cult sired by the Left. LaRouche is not Hitler-like. He is Stalin-like.

Still manning the bullhorn, I see. Perhaps some LCers joined, not for L/R reasons, but because they relished the opportunity to tell people the One Truth at top volume. Just as some amputees have phantom limbs, some ex-LCers seem to have phantom card tables.
Relax. There's no need to convince us of anything. :)

07-28-2008, 05:28 PM

‘‘Elsie‘‘

Quote:
Originally Posted by borismaglev
The Labor Committee was, is and always will be until its death a Stalinist personality cult sired by the Left. LaRouche is not Hitler-like. He is Stalin-like.

Hence his support among right-wing Germans, his friendly relations with Willis Carto, his racist attacks on Obama, and his tendency to treat Jews, as such, as the enemies of humanity (quite different in tone and manner from Stalinist anti-Semitism).
Plus, of course, there is the exact resemblance between the attitudes towards women expressed in the Beyond Psych writings and the misogynist imagery found in proto-Nazi literature.
No, not Hitler-like at all!
And remember, Stalin was all about the fundraising. Especially through credit-card fraud. Read his speeches to the Comintern -- turns out, Stalin constantly harped on the need for comrades to "charge those suckers to the max." Seriously, it's all he ever talked about.

07-28-2008, 07:15 PM

‘‘Elsie‘‘

Quote:
Originally Posted by borismaglev
it was not interested in killing Jews, it was interested in making Jews repudiate their identity in order to use them for its own purposes.

Hence (to repeat) LaRouche's support among right-wing Germans, his friendly relations with Willis Carto, his racist attacks on Obama, and his tendency to treat Jews, as such, as the enemies of humanity (quite different in tone and manner from Stalinist anti-Semitism) -- not to mention the exact resemblance between the attitudes towards women expressed in the Beyond Psych writings and the misogynist imagery found in proto-Nazi literature.
But other than that, of course, you are probably on to something.

07-28-2008, 08:04 PM

poe

Quote:
Originally Posted by borismaglev
Convincing you or anyone else is the furthest thing from my mind. But I do have a vested interest in keeping the historical record straight, simply for the reason that I am associated with this historical record. I am sick and tired of insinuations (mostly outside of this discussion board) that I or any one of us ever belonged to a right-wing fascist organization. I and all of you belonged to a left-wing communist organization whose anti-Semitism was identical to the Stalinist brand of anti-Semitism not the Nazi brand of anti-Semitism-- it was not interested in killing Jews, it was interested in making Jews repudiate their identity in order to use them for its own purposes.


I never thought that I would find myself agreeing with Maglev on anything, but he is absolutely right to point out that LaRouche and the ICLC had no interest in killing Jews. Whatever else you may call him, calling him a "Hitler" is just wrong. The ADL and all the Neo-Con talk radio hosts pitched a giant fit about George Bush being compared to Hitler, crying that doing this somehow dishonors the victims of the Holocaust and is a kind of blasphemy. But the same exact crowd thinks absolutely nothing of calling LaRouche or Farrakhan "Hitlers". Bush has killed thousands of people, Farrakhan and LaRouche have not. Bush may not have killed millions of people like Hitler, but he is a whole heck of a lot closer to that record than LaRouche is. If it is such a "cheapening of the memory of the Holocaust" to call Bush a Hitler, then I think that people should definately stop calling LaRouche one. I have a lot of problems with LaRouche, but anyone who was in the organization knows, as Maglev has pointed out above, that LaRouche does not want to exterminate Jews, and, for any of us to imply otherwise seriously undermines our credability.

07-28-2008, 08:35 PM

‘‘KosherSoze‘‘

Quote:
Originally Posted by borismaglev
Lets put this to the test:
How many members of this discussion board joined the LC to pursue right wing fascist agenda? - raise your hands.
How many of you know of anybody currently a member who joined the LC to pursue right wing fascist agenda? - raise your hands.

While I agree with the general line argued here that Lyn's anti-semitism is not genocidal, I think Boris's line here is too simplistic. In the States, the LC's left roots are unquestionable. But my reading of other material on the net indicates that Lyn's Australian operations, which began some time in the late 80s (by which time his politics had profoundly changed), were founded by members of a long-time far-right anti-semitic party called the League of Rights, and new members/fund providers were recruited out of that neo-fascist milieu.

07-28-2008, 08:36 PM

‘‘Elsie‘‘

Quote:
Originally Posted by borismaglev
You must be an ex-LYMette, judging from your imputed age and mastery of historic facts.

It has been some decades since anyone has called me a youth, and I've probably forgotten more about Stalinism than you'll ever know. (Perhaps it bears spelling out that the part about Stalin being keen on credit card fraud was sarcasm. That must have confused you.)
Definitely look up the word "imputed" before using it again. You are the one doing the imputation, and, as with the Obama-bashing comments, it creates quite the ignoramus effect.

07-28-2008, 08:54 PM

xlcr4life

Quote:
Originally Posted by zisepsyche7
finally I am back.xlcr...we got paid in checks? why is it so important how we got paid? I know some yutes who don't get money at all or any ( oh the stories I could tell u!) What were your other questions?

Zise, I am still travelling on vacation with the family. Give me a day to explain what to look for and how to think about this. Key issue is how a member is classified, paid and placed as an employye, volunteer, IND contractor for tax and legal purposes. You may find that a LYM and LYMette is in solidarity with recent INS raids on meatpackng plants and other businesses which exploit labor.
In the meantime, here is something about Lyn's 1992 VP candidate and the resident LC expert on child abuse, Rev James Bevel.
http://loudounextra.washingtonpost.c...-convicted-in/
LoudounExtra.com
Hearing Postponed for Civil Rights Leader Convicted of Incest
By Sandhya Somashekhar
Friday, July 25, 2008
Advertisement

All Advertisers
A Loudoun County judge today postponed the sentencing hearing for James L. Bevel, a civil rights leader in the 1960s who in April was convicted of incest for having sex with his teenage daughter.
Bevel, 71, faces up to 15 years in prison in connection with events that took place from October 1992 to October 1994 in an apartment in Leesburg, when the daughter was 14 or 15. His court-appointed attorney requested the postponement after learning that, because of a mistake at the jail, Bevel had not been permitted earlier this week to review a psychological evaluation that had been prepared at the prosecutors' request.
INTERNET ENHANCED
Related Stories
May 25, 2008 -- A Father's Shadow
April 11, 2008 -- Loudoun Jury Convicts Civil Rights Leader of Incest
+-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Circuit Court Judge Burke F. McCahill rescheduled the hearing for Oct. 15.
Bevel was a confidant of the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. and was present when King was assassinated at a Memphis hotel in 1968.
Bevel became estranged from the civil rights movement when he came to the defense of King's confessed killer, James Earl Ray. In 1992, he ran for vice president as the running mate of Lyndon LaRouche Jr., whose political action committee is headquartered in Leesburg.
Copyright 2008 The Washington Post Company
Comments:
Note: LoudounExtra.com does not necessarily agree with comments posted below — responsibility lies with the relevant reader alone. Peruse our reader agreement and privacy policy
Since when do minor children "have sex with" their fathers? where in the article do you accurately describe this crime as a sexual assault or rape? Incest is simply a word that describes "sex between two related individuals" -- it does not convey the horror that is associated with being sexually assaulted within one's own family by a trusted relative. Please, please accurately report these horrific crimes for what they are and stop softening the language. It is the least that you can do for the victims.
Posted by lana.lawrence (anonymous) on July 25, 2008 at 2:28 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Exactly. It's like running over a dog, on pupose, and claim it was euthanization.
Posted by birdgirl39 (anonymous) on July 25, 2008 at 3:59 p.m. (Suggest removal)
He gets until October to review a psych exam???? Surely he can read faster than that! The man is a convicted rapist.....so sentence him and get it over with. Nothing in the exam is going to change anything! Dragging this out accomplishes nothing but continued torment for the victim.
Posted by buzzsaw1 (anonymous) on July 25, 2008 at 7:10 p.m. (Suggest removal)
October is actually pretty good rescheduling, given that it's already the end of July. Postponements of any kind wreak havoc on the court's calendar and those of the attorneys. All necessary persons - judge, prosecutor, and defense counsel, must reschedule to a date that fits everyone's calendar - not easy. In the small western MD county in which I practice law, we're already backed up into December for trials at the lower district court level.
Posted by wrigleywrat (anonymous) on July 25, 2008 at 8:26 p.m. (Suggest removal)
It seems that if justic is served then Bevel may find out first hand how it feels to be taken advantage of sexually against his will .Civil Rights leader ?Lock him up and throw away the key !
Posted by superchicken911

I have some comments on other recent posts here as well. Everyone should keep in mind that what you joined the LC for was based on what would attract you. Later, your actual actions was based on what would work with different varieties of people on the phone list you had to call. Your being left or right was at the bottom of the list with Lyn and every thing about Lyn at the top with the money always below that.

xlcr4life@hotmail.com

07-28-2008, 10:23 PM

poe

Quote:
Originally Posted by borismaglev
The Australian organization was after my time, so I have no reliable knowledge of its members. What I do know, however, is that it was initially put together by one of the Douglas brothers (Al or Steve), and I personally knew both Douglas brothers to have been dyed-in-the-wool Stalinists as well as anti-Semites.


Are they still in?

07-29-2008, 12:39 AM

shadok

killing Jews

Quote:
Originally Posted by poe
I never thought that I would find myself agreeing with Maglev on anything, but he is absolutely right to point out that LaRouche and the ICLC had no interest in killing Jews.

well, maybe things have changed...
+=============
Testimony of LYM
Thursday, 16 November 2006
LaRouche's Anti-Semitism
Topic: LaRouche's Anti-Semitism
Anti-Semitism
"Killing Jews isn't such a bad idea."
It's such a little thing, but it's so damming. Immediately after the first class meeting I was in, the group gathered in the kitchen. There were some snacks, and everyone stood around talking to each other, congratulating each other on a good class. There must have been around 60 people standing around in the kitchen, and crowding out into other areas of the office, all talking at once. Like church, except everyone is about 85 times more amped. It's no wonder these people consider going off meds and becoming manic to be normal. It's loud, and it's as soon as the class ends, everyone sets themselves to fast forward. This is when I met Montez for the first time, after talking to him on the phone so many times, and after he swindled me into coming to this meeting in the first place, and like an idiot, I wanted to talk to him just because we'd talked on the phone so much. He wanted me to meet someone, so he was leading me to the far side of the kitchen. As I walked by a group of guys talking, I heard one of them say, "…killing Jews isn't such a bad idea…" it sounded to me like he was in mid-sentence.
We had just gotten out of a class on how Frederick Douglass had escaped slavery, met Abraham Lincoln, and been part of the abolitionist movement. I immediately assumed that the guy talking had said these words in some hypothetical sense, as in, "When Hitler was in power, a lot of people must have not liked him at first, but after listening to him enough, they were afraid for their own lives and started to think, 'Killing Jews isn't such a bad idea." In just a split second, I filled in the rest. All I'd heard was, "Killing Jews isn't such a bad idea."
At this meeting of this organization that has this reputation for anti-Semitism that they're so preoccupied with, as to vehemently deny when no one even asked, without even saying hello. In a way, I feel guilty that I didn't say something right there, "Excuse me, I didn't catch all of that. What did you mean by that?" Like any other statement or question that made them uncomfortable, it's likely that it would have been met with a blank stare. I missed it. I missed a lot of things.
http://www.angelfire.com/rebellion/purpleshirtdays/lym/index.blog?topic_id=1044737

07-29-2008, 01:30 AM

poe

Quote:
Originally Posted by shadok
well, maybe things have changed...

I repeat, although there are a lot of things that LaRouche can legitimately be accused of, anyone who was in the organization knows that he does not, never has, and never will advocate killing Jews. Other people might believe that stuff, but if you were ever a member, then you know better. Shadok, you are either being deliberately dishonest or are very disoriented.

07-29-2008, 02:39 AM

localgreek

Quote:
Originally Posted by poe
I repeat, although there are a lot of things that LaRouche can legitimately be accused of, anyone who was in the organization knows that he does not, never has, and never will advocate killing Jews. Other people might believe that stuff, but if you were ever a member, then you know better. Shadok, you are either being deliberately dishonest or are very disoriented.

+==============================
localgreek: LL didn't advocate killing anyone; he just destroys people's lives by inculcating them to sever family ties and then with that ego stripping I have read about here (and I wish someone would give a sort of detailed scenario how such a session takes place) he alters the personality of an individual to not care about themselves but to focus entirely on what HE deems the color of the month---preventing a new dark ages, or whatever nonsense. He destroys alright; but look Poe, this is America and it is not customary to advocate outright killing. But with Kronberg and Jeremiah and the two fellows in the car and others I have no knowledge of, what does one call this?
As for the comments about Stalin not killing Jews, well, this is more disinformation. When the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact was signed and Eastern Poland was handed over to the Soviets, and the NKVD marched into that territory which is and was ethnic Belorus and the Ukraine, deportations--which lead to hard labor and often early death, of Jews did take place. Yes, those Jews who were Communists and went along were spared and some rose in the Communist ranks but even then there were many ugly problems, but woe to those who were not Communists and in old Poland there were many many Jews who were not Communists. Deportations, executions took place of any and all elements that were deemed not to be acceptable. There is not enough literature on this 39-41 period in English but there is lots written in other languages So, Jews were also killed by Stalin; obviously not in the systematic way as in the Shoah; but they got it too; and yes, they were expected to denationalize themselves to survive; but in the final analysis the fact is that BOTH the National Socialists and the Communists were genocidal regimes; Hitler exterminated and so did STalin--millions upon millions of innocent folks; I understand Boris Maglev's distaste for the Right wing label connected to members in the Labor Com. but I also think in twenty years people will also shy away from advertising Communist allegiances; more and more documentation is coming out every day in the Former Soviet Union, and wait till the big stuff comes out of China, it will be unbelieveable.

07-29-2008, 04:43 AM

scrimscraw

Quote:
Originally Posted by borismaglev
I am sick and tired of insinuations (mostly outside of this discussion board) that I or any one of us ever belonged to a right-wing fascist organization. I and all of you belonged to a left-wing communist organization whose anti-Semitism was identical to the Stalinist brand of anti-Semitism not the Nazi brand of anti-Semitism-- it was not interested in killing Jews, it was interested in making Jews repudiate their identity in order to use them for its own purposes.

You know, when I originally picked up Dennis King's book on LaRouche, I initially thought that he was stretching things somewhat to identify the LC as a "new American fascism" and to call them anti-semitic. I'd been reading LC literature for years and I'd seen very few of the usual identifiers that go along with those terms.
However, King did persuade me on the "fascism" charge with his analysis of LHL's penchant for touting big projects that would involve mobilizing the whole country and woe to anyone resisting the projects or LaRouche.
LaRouche may have touted himself as "Der Abscheulicher" instead of "Der Fuhrer," and he may not have been calling for death camps for Jews, but that didn't mean that the end result of LHL gaining power (were he to do so) wouldn't be a strange kind of variant on fascism. As we know, Nazism was only one kind of fascism. There were Italian and Spanish and other brands as well, most of which didn't feature "the Nazi brand of anti-Semitism". Fascism has to do with the power of the State and the relationship between the State and corporations, etc.
Of course, I reckon that most LC members thought they were fighting against fascism - not advocating it. But that's the funny thing about Lyn. Lyn projects what he is really doing onto his "enemies" and that enables him to perform what Xlcer calls one of Lyn's "parlor tricks": preventing LCers from really seeing what they themselves are doing.
As for the "anti-semitism" charge, it wasn't until I ran into analysis here on this board that I began to see how that really was the case, albeit in a topsy-turvy way. There was none of the blatant yelling about ZOG or k*kes or "Jewish international bankers" that one associates with outright anti-semitism. It was much more subtle and encoded.
It may well be, as Eaglebeak contends, that LaRouche isn't about politics. Politics are just a maleable device to keep the personality cult and the $ rolling along. But I would be greatly surprised if LCers who joined post-1976 thought they were joining a "left-wing communist organization". To ask them now "did you join the LC to serve a right-wing Nazi agenda?" strikes me as a bit of a straw man. Maybe many of them just thought they were joining a "conservative democratic" organization championing "the American System," fighting drugs, battling environmentalists, pushing nuclear energy, and attacking Jimmy Carter. Perhaps some LCers thought they were doing all that and still considered themselves "left-wing communists". More's the pity.

07-29-2008, 05:02 AM

scrimscraw

Quote:
Originally Posted by borismaglev
I find the Right wing label just as distasteful as the Left wing label that once upon a time I proudly wore. What I object to is the pretense of so many of my old comrades here on this board that LaRouche is anything but a Left winger of the worst variety. He was, is and shall die a left winger of the worst kind - a brutal Stalinist. All of us veterans should know better than pretend otherwise. Calling him Stalin-like and not Hitler-like does not make him a less contemptible man. It merely restores historical accuracy.

Oh, tut tut. If you find the Right wing label "just as distateful as the Left wing label", why are you espousing such right wing exaggerations as "The Obama movement is Nazi in character (anti-Semitism, anti-Americanism, mass rallies in Germany, intimidation of in-party rivals, etc.)" C'mon, dude. If one is going to throw around accusations of being "Nazi in character," do you truly think that Obama fits that bill more than LHL?
Or is it just that such labeling rankles when it is applied (by others) to you, but not when it is applied (by you) to a Democratic presidential candidate?

07-29-2008, 09:49 AM

shadok

Quote:
Originally Posted by poe
I repeat, although there are a lot of things that LaRouche can legitimately be accused of, anyone who was in the organization knows that he does not, never has, and never will advocate killing Jews. Other people might believe that stuff, but if you were ever a member, then you know better. Shadok, you are either being deliberately dishonest or are very disoriented.

I m just more informed about how the LYM works as compared to my/your days...
They recruit anybody, I mean ANYbody and some are illiterate nutters who would fanatically follow this senile mad man, madder than ever before. Believe me, that s why many boomers left in recent years.
You don't need to advocate "killing Jews" (or anyone else) per se.
LL creates a closed and controlled environment. Violence and hatred are in the words. Then accidents could happen, whether LL wanted it or not!
The LYM have some unstable elements amongst their ranks. Jeremiah was probably killed by one of them, although we ll never know.
Hence this quote from a guy who spent some time with the LYM. I know another ex-LYM whose friend was physically threatened because they thought he was an "agent" (he just disagreed with LL)
So, unlike you, I m not surprised.

07-29-2008, 10:20 AM

shadok neither left nor right

Quote:
Originally Posted by borismaglev
Please, don't get me wrong. I find the Right wing label just as distasteful as the Left wing label that once upon a time I proudly wore. What I object to is the pretense of so many of my old comrades here on this board that LaRouche is anything but a Left winger of the worst variety. He was, is and shall die a left winger of the worst kind - a brutal Stalinist. All of us veterans should know better than pretend otherwise. Calling him Stalin-like and not Hitler-like does not make him a less contemptible man. It merely restores historical accuracy.

This topic was already discussed on this board at many occasions and always fails because larouche does NOT belong to politics and therefore cannot be labeled "right" or "left" (be it moderate, or extreme)
The LCs became very early on a cult of personality that uses politics to its own ends: Lyndon Hermyle LaRouche Junior. The parallels with Stalin, Hitler or even Mao could be drawn only as regarding to their respective cults of personality. The major difference, as noted earlier, between them and LL is that this last one was/is incapable of taking power (should we complain?) and as xlcr keeps reminding us, never intended to: the org. was never meant to "succeed" (politically) for what we were working for; to take power and change the world. Nope, the LCs were and the LYM are but an insignificant cult of personality (a "vanity press" as Avi Klein put it) full of illusions, delusions, lies and deceptions. I know, it is embarrassing.

07-29-2008, 03:28 PM

AwesomeIsGraceSlick

Quote:
Originally Posted by borismaglev

Anyway, I will end any further contribution from my part to this topic because we all have known from the beginning that the LC was always a Left phenomenon.

Yeah LHL.....a bit like Mussolini and James Burnham.....:D

07-29-2008, 05:38 PM

shadok

Quote:
Originally Posted by borismaglev
Then others who should know better come along to offer a compromise solution and say "aw, shucks, relax everybody and lets everybody be friends, the LC neither Left nor Right, it is an apolitical cult because it's all for the money." I disagree with this. The CL is a cult and it is political, and the money it raises is used to subsidize its political fantasies. Its politics are Left Stalinist politics regardless of temporary turns and twists on issues and tactics -- and always have been because the guru and all his top acolytes are all hard core Stalinists:

boris, it s all a battle of words and labels. Some think (like you) he was always "left" (bad one, ie stalinist) and his apparent right-wing turns were only opportunistic, others like King or Chip think he was always a fascist to undermine left organizations.
When I say he does not belong to politics ("neither left nor right"), I never meant he is "apolitical". Of course he s not "apolitical"!!!!
He uses politics... to undermine any democratic (ie political) debate (other cults would use religion or UFOs, whatever, to their own agendas). In this sense he can be compared to fascists during the 30s who opposed "parliamentarian democracy" (debates)
In other words, Larouche is anti-politics and in this sense resembles to Nazis, communists and other dictatorial-minded "political" organizations. (btw "neither right nor left" is a book written by isreali historian Zeev Sternhell who explained and documented how - in France - united antibourgeois, antiliberal nationalism, and revolutionary syndicalist thought united into what was later called "fascism"- so the divide between "left" and "right" was more blurry than we think when dealing with a phenomenon like Fascism)
But I think to compare LL to Hitler or Stalin (even a "small time" one) is misleading because post-war mind-control techniques have replaced what ideologies were used for during the early 20th C.
Saying that, I think LL finds himself (mind control techniques wise) between these two eras: the simple fact he still believes he can manipulate ppl only with... literature and speeches ("power of Reason", "vanity publishing") is the main reason why, as a cult leader, he didn't do as well as a Rev. Moon or Ron Hubbard.
Larouche is but a failed cult leader.
But I take your point on board re the Stalinist background of most (American) founding LC members.

07-30-2008, 02:06 PM

xlcr4life

Quote:
Originally Posted by borismaglev
As a postscript to my promise to stop talking about this, just let me add that such well reasoned responses as yours should be forthcoming whenever the "LaRouche is a Fascist" canard rears its head.

I would sumbit that opinions of everday people who have no connection to whatever incantation of the LC/LYM existed at the time should be examined as well. What you will find is that in virtually every case, Lyn is considered more of a kooky cult leader while the LYM are but annoying fools who are pitied and then laughed at.
These are the sort of "Crucial Experiments" Lyn always yaps about. This is what the 96 or so hour Larouche-Schacht work week a LYM or LYMette put in produces.
http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/doc/200...n-the-ratchet/
Another click on the ratchet
July 29, 2008 in Past, Future, Ideas
I woke up with the song "Sixteen Candles" running through my mind. I didn't get the dyslexic pun until I realized that I turn sixty-one today. Technically, I've got several more hours at sixty, since I'm writing this at 6:22, and I was born at about 11am (at Christ Hospital in Jersey City).
In an unrelated matter, last night I attended an Obama gathering in Boston that was enjoyable except to the degree that three followers of Lyndon LaRouche kept bending conversation sideways toward their own ideological vectors.
When the evening was ending, I stood outside talking with one of the three (who had been told to leave by one of the meeting's organizers). At first I thought we could have a conversation, but it wasn't possible. The guy was not only convinced absolutely of his own (and presumably LaRouche's) rightness, but resolutely paranoid. (Later he gave me a small pile of LaRouche literature. Not surprisingly, it was thick with paranoia.)
Aside from the nature of his opinions, I found it sad that a mind so young was so completely closed.
I remember realizing, at about age sixteen or younger, that I would never know everything, and that I should always stay curious about the world and open to facts that challenge my opinions. One might think that this would get harder as one gets older, but it doesn't. It gets easier.
We need our opinions, our certitudes, our belief systems. Can't get along without them. But even belief systems need new information. Being right is overrated. Being open is essential if we wish to grow as human beings. At any age.

xlcr4life@hotmail.com

07-31-2008, 03:36 AM

earnest_one

Off Topic Humor This is off topic but proffered with no apologies as I think I've contributed "some" nontrivial substance to this board over the past year or so.
On 7-27-2008 Borismaglev wrote:
"As far as I can tell, the only differences between LaRouche and Obama are two:
1. One leads the struggle to "save the human race" and the other to "save the planet."
2. One has a college degree and the other doesn't.
Otherwise, they are both married to seriously anti-American wives."
I was intrigued by the claim that Michelle Obama is "seriously anti-American" because I've seen no evidence of this. But in an article on Obama's teaching history at the University of Chicago Law School that appeared in today's NY Times ("America's newspaper of record") the following was written:
"A favorite theme [of Obama's], said Salil Mehra, now a law professor at Temple University, were the values and cultural touchstones that Americans share. Mr. Obama's case in point: his wife, Michelle, a black woman, loved "The Brady Bunch" so much that she could identify every episode by its opening shots.
Here is the link:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/30/us/politics/30law.html?hp=&pagewanted=print
Now, of course, Obama could be lying or the professor interviewed could be lying.
I simply note, however, that "The Brady Bunch" is generally considered as part of mainstream American culture and anyone who loved that show would have to be a real schizoid if they were ALSO "seriously anti-American".
Again, off topic, but supplied for those with a sense of humor as I doubt that Helga could sit through a single episode of that series.

07-31-2008, 03:14 PM

borisbad

The only way that LaRouche can be called Stalinist is in having perfected the "cult of personality" to make him the Supreme Leader. Anyone with a knowledge of history knows that before Stalin, no matter what may be made of the Bolsheviks, there was such a thing as internal debate within the party, and there were the factions around Zinoviev (left), Bukharin (right) etc. In one sense, there is no comparison between LaRouche and Hitler, in the sense that Hitler was a demagogue who knew how to move masses through his propaganda. LaRouche can only move people to sleep with his endless droning.
There were so many inaccuracies in Borismaglev's presentation of history that it is hard to know where to begin. First of all, Trotsky never attacked Stalin as a fascist, because he recognized that it was necessary to unite the entire "worker's movement" in united fronts against fascism. He certainly did attack Stalin for appeasing the Nazis and for undermining united fronts with socialists, non-communist trade unions, etc.
The use of the labels of left and right are misleading in any event. Certainly there were those on the left that bordered on fascist ideology, witness someone like Mussolini who started as a socialist and then became the architect of fascist economics. There were splits in the fascist movements as well between those who wanted to united with the communists against the liberal democratic regimes in Europe, while others like Hitler wanted to link with countries like Britain initially to declare on Russia, or at least to promote the idea that there was a common interest in fighting Bolshevism (which also had the convenience of being identified as being Jewish in origin).
But most of these disputes were convenient ruses. It was the same reason the Nazis could denounce the communists on one hand and the Jewish controlled financial interests on the other, and in that there is a great deal of similarity with LaRouche.
There may be some truth in what Borismaglev says about the Stalinist background of people like Papert and others who came directly out of the Maoist PLP. In the early days the NCLC called itself Trotskyist and later Luxemburgist (both Jews) but the actual leadership was more out of the PLP Maoist mold and the org. definitely seemed more adapt at recruiting people out of the Maoist orgs. than out of what LaRouche always identified as the Swamp left (I believe that was a term he picked up from Lenin regarding the Mensheviks).
The crucial point, as xlcr always says, is that the org. that LaRouche founded never except possibly in its earliest days had a chance of becoming any type of mass movement, never had the potential of gaining a mass following and was never oriented in any consistent ideology except whatever caught the fancy of LaRouche.

07-31-2008, 04:03 PM

xlcr4life

Quote:
Originally Posted by earnest_one
I simply note, however, that "The Brady Bunch" is generally considered as part of mainstream American culture and anyone who loved that show would have to be a real schizoid if they were ALSO "seriously anti-American".
Again, off topic, but supplied for those with a sense of humor as I doubt that Helga could sit through a single episode of that series.

In talking to someone years ago who was a guest at Ibykus many times, I found out that Helga's rage at American TV grew to an extreme boiling point (Elvis shooting the screen anger) when she watched a few episodes of the great TV show "Hogan's Heros". I think she may have mentioned it once at a conference in promoting her "Patriots for Germany" candidates slate in Germany.
Earnest-one, when you mention what Michael Hudson said about the LC and having so many contacts and secret support, keep in mind this. Lyn and security had a few all time favorite movies. Lyn was always a big fan of the original comedy "The Producers". He would often tell people that the movie was real capitalism at work. Years later, one would hear many stories about Lyn working old ladies as a Southern Gentlemen farmer when we invited them to Ibyikus to meet Lyn for dinner.
The next big movie Lyn and the LC loved was "The Sting" with Paul Newman. The lesson there to be learned is that the LC coulod create illusions real easy by calling people all of the time for info and to share info. Some of this would turn into a meeting or two. We could then write something positive about someone using whatever profile we had about their enemies or opposition in an election or in business or politics. We could then take that and use that to call up a bunchof other people and say that "so and so" is meeting with us and asked us to call you". General Danny Graham and others mention this without knowing that it was for everyone, not just them. If the person stoped talking to us, the membership never found out why, just that they were harrased by Kissinger or some other evil enemy of Lyn..
This is all cheap parlor trickery which is both used with contacts and with members. You can create both wide spread support for Lyn by taking a simple phone call by a sector researcher in the National office who stayed on the line with the person. People in certain positions, usually GOP were able to use the LC for many dirty tricks. Many Dems like Ed Koch and some local mayors and officials could use us to spread dirty rumours and do dirty tricks against their opponenets. We would offer to do this and would meet with a staffer to get dirt.
All of this was suppsed to get us into power and lyn to the White House. Whenever a person finally met with lyn, everyhting would evaporate as they soon found out that luyn was nuts . Making money off of this was the final product and lyn did believe his own lunacy and spread more to the LC which also wanted to believe it. Those close friends of Jeff and Paul who all built up Lyn, soon had a pipline of cash coming from Lyn with an estimated 13 million dollars being sent by Lyn to scam artists like The Colonel and Carpet.
Lyn and security should have watched "The Sting" a little more closely to see how con artists themselves get swallowed by con artists.

This is one of the best delusionary interviews done by Lyn. This is Monty Python worthy.

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200511/22/eng20051122_223150.html

File photo shows Lyndon H. LaRouche, Jr. is making a speech in October, 2005, in Washington, US.
+-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lyndon H. LaRouche, Jr. is an American political activist and founder of various political organizations in the United States and elsewhere. He is perhaps best known for being a "perennial candidate" for U.S. Presidency, having set a minor record for most consecutive attempts at the office by running eight times; Harold Stassen ran for President nine times, but not consecutively. LaRouche has run for the Democratic nomination for President in every election year since 1980, including in 1992 while he was in prison. Yet he and his "LaRouche movement" have gained only limited electoral support, although he has received some support in Democratic presidential primaries.
Although he has no formal qualifications, LaRouche has written extensively on economic, scientific, political, and cultural topics. Critics consider him to be a conspiracy theorist and political attention-seeker. He is frequently described as an extremist, cult leader, a communist, a fascist, and an anti-Semite, all of which he denies. LaRouche is regarded by his followers as a brilliant individual who for political reasons has been unfairly persecuted.
In 1988 LaRouche was sentenced to fifteen years imprisonment for conspiracy, mail fraud, and tax code violations. He continued his political activities from behind bars. He was released in 1994 on parole after having served five years.
LaRouche lists his formal position as a director and contributing editor of the Executive Intelligence Review News Service, a core part of the LaRouche movement.
Recently Yong Tang, People's Daily Online Washington-based staff writer, has conducted an exclusive interview with LaRouche at his home in Virginia.


Yong Tang: Let's turn to your political life. As I know, you have run for the Democratic nomination for President in every election year since 1980 and you lost the election every time.
LaRouche: No, I won every time. it's not winning a prize. Running for President is influencing the future of the country. When you run for President repeatedly and seriously, when you are a serious personality, not some fool or clown, what happens is that you become a part of the Presidential system. You are called upon to advise the government. For instance, I wasn't a member of government, but I worked for President Reagan on the negotiation with the Soviet Union, on the SDI (Strategic Defense Initiative) proposal and other things.
Yong Tang: What is your professional title in the elections?
LaRouche: I'm just the head of my own association. But that's the way it functions. You become a recognized political figure of the institutions of government. And you're recognized as being a part of the presidential system. So technically, I'm a part of the presidential system. I've run officially and been qualified as a candidate. I've run as a candidate. I influence politics. I consult with people in all kinds of layers in politics. I consult with international people. I advise my government on various kinds of things, when it's willing, from time to time. So I'm a part of the system of government of the United States, in this capacity. That's the way our system works.
Particularly with the presidential system, in which you become a permanent part of the actual government, without you actually holding any office, but you become, by common Understanding, a part of the system. And I'm a part of the system of government of the United States.
Yong Tang: But every time you just failed.
LaRouche: Not at all. It's like how many battles does a soldier fight? He keeps fighting the battles. Why? Because he's a soldier.
Yong Tang: So next time in 2008 you're going to run for President again?
LaRouche: I don't plan to because of my age. I could run. But I've got to think about the future. My job now is to create the selection of the next President of the United States. You know in China, you sometimes go to a higher position from being an official. And when you become a higher level than an official, your responsibility is to help select and train the people who will run this country. That's my job.
Yong Tang: So that is why you are turning to a youth movement in America?
LaRouche: I created a youth movement because we needed it, and that nobody else knew how to do it. Because they forgot. They lost the understanding of the youth movement.
Yong Tang: You are a big shot here. But it seems you are much more famous overseas than here in America. You have a large number of followers among young people.
LaRouche: (Laughing) You walk into a room here and mention my name, you could start a riot, especially in Washington, D.C. You mention my name. Aaaaaaaaaaargh!
Yong Tang: (laughing) A troublemaker! So you are trying to cultivate the younger generation to follow you?
LaRouche: No, I am trying to create a new younger generation. You see I have all these young people around me. They represent a lot of potential. They need the opportunity of self-development. They don't know how to do it. But I know how to get them to do it. To develop themselves.
Yong Tang: What is your approach?
LaRouche: I give those young people a sense of independence. I find they don't need too much. The potential is there. They need help. They need advice. And once you give them advice, and they come back and ask you a few questions here and there. I get a lot of questions. And they do it themselves.
The best way to have a permanent effect on the youth is not to do it for them or to tell them what to do. The best way is to get them to do it for themselves. Then they have independent capabilities. And the people who lead the future of America must have independent capabilities. They must not be simply people who wait for orders. They have to have the independent sense of their own capability.
Yong Tang: you said the Soviet government wanted to kill you because you were a dangerous person?
LaRouche: Yes, I became a threat at that time for the Soviet Union. I became a threat because I was a power in the United States at that point. So therefore they had a public attack.
Yong Tang: On you? and they tried to kill you?
LaRouche: Well, Gorbachev's wife was used for this purpose. Her name is Raisa and she controlled a whole series of publications, so-called cultural publications in the Soviet Union. And this and other institutions were used to demand my killing. "Imprison or kill him!". "Imprison or kill him!"The Soviet press was full of this.
Reagan was going to Reykavik for a so-called summit meeting with Gorbachev. And on the week before that, 400 people came to kill me, official people.
Yong Tang: 400 people? To kill you?
LaRouche: Yeah. Well the 400 was to run an operation in the whole area, but there was a special team there which was assigned to come in and kill me. So I sent a telegram to Reagan, and that night the order came down to stop it.
Yong Tang: Who came down to stop it?
LaRouche: Well, Reagan gave an order, the Reagan Administration gave an order to the head of the Justice Department to stop it.
Yong Tang: To stop the Soviet....
LaRouche: From killing me. Not to kill me. So later they decided to send me to prison. And that was George Bush Senior, who was involved in saying yes to that.
Yong Tang: But why?
LaRouche: Because I'm a part of the Presidential system.
Yong Tang: How did they make a good excuse for that?
LaRouche: They make one up. That's easy. The United States system is very good in that. They can make excuses. They can kill anybody they want to kill and they can make it look legal. There's no problem.
Yong Tang: The government charged that you never repaid $200,000 of loans.
LaRouche: That wasn't our fault. They did, I didn't do it. The government did it.
Yong Tang: But I don't quite understand...
LaRouche: They faked the figures.
Yong Tang: But I still don't understand how this works.
LaRouche: They had a judge in Alexandria. They have a special system inside the United States Government which was set up in this form under Teddy Roosevelt. It was set up by the creation of the National Bureau of Investigation, which later became the FBI. You have a secret element of the U.S. Government, which is buried inside the Justice Department. It's called the Internal Security Apparatus. It's the most secret part of the Government, the Internal Security Apparatus. It's actually controlled by groups of bankers and law firms from New York City and so forth, who are tied into this entity.
And any time you want to get rid of someone who is high-level as I was, they go into this section of government which cooperates under various names, which is actually the secret internal security apparatus. The judge of the Alexandria. Virginia Federal court is the judge for this system. Anytime they want to kill someone or send them to prison, who is high-level, he ends up with charges in Alexandria before the judge who is the chief judge of that court. And anyone who is sent into that court will be convicted of anything.
Yong Tang: Bu they should have a charge.
LaRouche: Hahaha! The charge was conspiracy.
Yong Tang: What was the charge for you?
LaRouche: Thirteen counts of conspiracy.
Yong Tang: Conspiracy for what?
LaRouche: All kinds of things. It was crazy. Insane. But it can only work in that way. They put me on trial in Boston and they lost the case. So before the case was officially closed, I was actually exonerated, but technically not. So they reopened the trial under different auspices in Alexandria and it's automatic. The trial was in Boston. I won the case in Boston.
Yong Tang: You won it?
LaRouche: Well, I won it with the court.
Yong Tang: So they moved you somewhere else and retried you?
LaRouche: Yeah. Under new charges. Which is conspiracy. Only conspiracy. It's that simple. It was a short trial. It was over.
Yong Tang: It was about financial matter?
LaRouche: Well, it's all kinds of things. They tried to make it financial, but actually it was all done by the government, everything they accused me of was actually done by the government. You see, what the government did was they bankrupted a firm illegally. The government did the illegal act.
Yong Tang: Then they put you under bankruptcy?
LaRouche: The losses from the bankruptcy were the basis for the charges. Later, the thing was ruled as being an illegal bankruptcy. But they charged that it was not a bad faith error, it was just an error. If it had been a bad faith error, there would have had to be a new trial, and would have gotten the whole thing over. The former President George W Bush was the key President in charge, who was responsible for this. And he hates me to this day.
Yong Tang: You could have hired very competent lawyers to defend yourself.
LaRouche: The United States has a secret dictatorship built into it. Don't believe this stuff about democracy. (Laughter).
Yong Tang: Just like Saddam Hussein?
LaRouche: Saddam Hussein was, of course, cruder. These people are slightly more refined. Not that much, but slightly more. When they want to kill, they kill.
Yong Tang: How did you feel at that time?
LaRouche: I understood.
Yong Tang: You understood?
LaRouche: Sure.
Yong Tang: You accepted your fate?
LaRouche: No, I didn't accept it. I understood it. There's a difference.
Yong Tang: Oh, you understood.
LaRouche: I understood that in my time I will do what I have to do.
Yong Tang: You mean you run for president?
LaRouche: That's right. You decide what you have to do. They knew it, OK, they did it. You can't go around weeping about it. You have to decide what you're going to do.
Yong Tang: You didn't cry?
LaRouche: No, you don't cry in warfare. If you're a soldier you don't cry.
Yong Tang: How many years did you spend in prison?
LaRouche: Five years.
Yong Tang: Where was it?
LaRouche: In Rochester, Minnesota.
Yong Tang: Was it a prison only for political prisoners?
LaRouche: No, political prisoners go to various places, but that is a place which tended to be a special concentration of political prisoners. It was a general prison. The prison was established as an off-shoot of the Mayo Clinic in Rochester. They used to have a mental hospital there, which was a public mental hospital. So the Federal government bought this mental hospital and they turned it into a prison.
My judgment was that this was a center where they would house people who had medical problems and who were political prisoners. Because the Mayo Clinic would provide the medical services. And this facility had a hospital in it. So you would have this prison, and political prisoners would tend to go there. They would go there because they had some medical thing, or something like that, you could send them there.
Yong Tang: How do you think of the treatment you received while you stayed there?
LaRouche: It was fixed. Because a lot of people in the system of government knew exactly what the case was. So the warden of the prison and some of the officials knew exactly what the case was. They knew I was a political prisoner. They didn't bother me.
Yong Tang: They didn't bother you?
LaRouche: Ah, but then you had a section of the security apparatus in the prison which belonged to the other side. So we had some threats. There was one effort to induce a heart attack, which didn't work. But the news got out, and they got slapped in the face for trying. So after that, I had minimal problems inside the prison.
During the first year I was there there was this effort to have me eliminated. But after they got caught at it, and there was a complaint about it from Washington, then they backed off.
Yong Tang: How could you survive it? Five years is a long time.
LaRouche: With my personality I survive all kinds of things. When you get to be an old soldier, you survive a lot. And the way you survive is being yourself.
Yong Tang: What did you do every day?
LaRouche: Well, I did what I should. I did what I was supposed to do, and I helped people when I could.
Yong Tang: Help people? How?
LaRouche: Well, prisoners are there. They've problems. They've got psychological problems. They've got all kinds of problems. They have fears, they have anxieties. They're human beings.
Yong Tang: Bill Jones, one of your friend once said that you organized a musical group in the prision.
LaRouche: We did all kinds of things. Since I was very much with civil rights and the history of civil rights, I became involved in various things around that. You know, people came around and they knew you have been in politics and so forth, and they came to you with their problems. They had their personal problems they want to talk about, they wanted someone to talk to. You became involved in being good to people.
Yong Tang: You had written some books while you were in prison?
LaRouche: I wrote some, yes.
Yong Tang: How man books?
LaRouche: Oh, several. What I did is that I wrote a lot of things. And some of them became books, and some other things were turned into parts of books.
Yong Tang: How did you write books in prison?
LaRouche: I just wrote them.
Yong Tang: Did you have pens? Reference books?
LaRouche: Yes, I had materials. I was able to write, and send out what I wrote.
Yong Tang: So you didn't call somebody up and ask him to write down what you wanted to say?
LaRouche: I called and talked to people on the telephone. I just wrote what I wrote.
Yong Tang: What are the titles of these books?
LaRouche: One was on cold fusion, on the implications of cold fusion. We also wrote a composite book on railroads, two volumes. And a lot of articles. I was constantly busy, doing interviews...
Yong Tang: You could accept interviews in the prison?
LaRouche: Yes. We had certain restrictions, but we could do it.
Yong Tang: Who interviewed you?
LaRouche: A lot of people. Mostly my people, radio stations, things like that.
Yong Tang: How did you feel as a political prisoner in America?
LaRouche: Well I was concerned about what I was doing, there wasn't much...
Yong Tang: You were proud of being in prison?
LaRouche: Yea, sure. Not that I liked to be in prison. That was not my profession. But I felt good about myself, should we say. Not about my conditions.
By Yong Tang, People's Daily Online Washington-based Staff Writer


xlcr4life@hotmail.com

07-31-2008, 08:55 PM

boomer70

People's Daily interview the People's Daily interview is one of the weirdest things i've ever read. i used to be close to someone who became convinced that he was the Prince of Wales and began telling stories based on his idee fixe. a lot of Hube's remarks in the interview remind me of those stories. really.

08-01-2008, 05:04 PM

scrimscraw

Pest control

Quote:
Originally Posted by boomer70
the People's Daily interview is one of the weirdest things i've ever read. i used to be close to someone who became convinced that he was the Prince of Wales and began telling stories based on his idee fixe. a lot of Hube's remarks in the interview remind me of those stories. really.

The interview appears to be from 2005, BTW. And the part posted by Xlcer is only "part 5" of a much longer interview. I don't know if I have the patience to read all 8 parts, but just this from part 1 indicates that there are treasures to be found:
Yong Tang: So far have you made any wrong predictions?
LaRouche: No, because I understand world economy. And I understand what mistakes are. My forecasts have involved the mistakes that are made by the incumbent authorities. I've simply not forecast much. Really I've forecast what the results of their mistakes will be, and their mistakes were obvious to me and the consequences of their mistakes are obvious to me.
As for Borismaglev's meta-question on why the Chinese CP would publish this, I wish someone would explain to me why the Chinese CP does anything that it does. But in this case, perhaps someone at People's Daily wished to get rid of the pest (Lyn) by letting him discredit himself at length in his own words. ;-)

08-01-2008, 07:16 PM

eaglebeak

LOL Stands for Lyndon O! LaRouche

The interview xclr posted is, as the saying goes, priceless.
I just want to note here that the "attempt to induce a heart attack" which "failed" was none other than the famous assassination-by-colonoscopy episode of fall 1989 or thereabouts (may have been fall 1990, but I doubt it).
Someone, please, I beg of you--find those press releases.
The Rochester, MN federal prison is a medical facility, with connections to the Mayo Clinic. Lyn was sent there because he was relatively old-65 when incarcerated--and claimed to have numerous physical ailments which were trotted out to prevent imprisonment.
As part of the normal workup, he was given a colonoscopy. And, in what had to be the apex of bad tastte/nadir of good taste, he and Warren Hamerman wrote a series of lunatic press releases on how the Feds were trying to kill him in prison via colonoscopy, making him sick, making him work at whatever stupid job he was assigned after the colonoscopy, etc.
Far too many medical and physiological details were included in the press releases. To say that it was an embarrassment is to understate the situation to the point of grotesquerie.
Beyond belief is the best way to express the releases.
Mad as a hatter is another way.
This episode was one of the landmarks, or milestones, on the long strange trip of Lyndon LaRouche's descent into absurdity--sometimes murderous, sometimes hilarious, always vicious, but absurdity nonetheless.
So I am pleased to discover in this interview that Lyn has not forgotten The Day the Feds Tried To Kill Me with a Poisoned Colonoscope, or whatever he thinks happened.
And of course, the worldwide outcry over Death-by-Colonoscopy stopped the Feds from trying that again.

08-01-2008, 07:33 PM

xlcr4life

Quote:
Originally Posted by eaglebeak
The interview xclr posted is, as the saying goes, priceless.
I just want to note here that the "attempt to induce a heart attack" which "failed" was none other than the famous assassination-by-colonoscopy episode of fall 1989 or thereabouts (may have been fall 1990, but I doubt it).
Someone, please, I beg of you--find those press releases..

No need to beg. This is from factnet.org three years ago. It ages just like a fine Rheingau wine with time.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++** ++++++++++++++
08-05-2005, 07:09 PM
xlcr4life (xlcr4life) Posts: n/a
"P.S. what happened to Cov
++++++++++++++++++++
"P.S. what happened to Covici? He was just getting warmed up. Did somebody finally yank on his leash from high above? "
For those not privy to LC history, let me explain a little. John Covici was the guy you would hear laugh hysterically at Lyns jokes from the front of the room during our national conferences. He would audio tape and duplicate Lyns speeches for sale. He was a bright fellow who though visually impaired, was working on Wall Street in some computer capacity.
Since he had a job and credit, many people lusted after his plastic. In the early days of the web, he would post Larouche press releases on many bulletin boards. You would later see comments from people who were angry at him for interrupting BB's with Larouche lunacy and for doing something with their email lists.
One of the best Covici posts was a release by Warren Hammerman about how Lyn was in yet another assasination plot by the oligarchs to stop him in jail from saving the world.
I had to hold back from laughing and crying at the same time. Laughing because any person over 50 who has a colonscopy is given laxatives to clean out their colon prior to a sigmoid scope and polyp removal. Laughing because most people who work only take the day off for the exam as it is a routine part of health care for older people and they go back to work the next day. Laughing because everyone is given a mild anesthetic so they can be groggy/asleep during the procedure.
Lyn was very big on red meat consumption and often had elaborate banquets in the Leesburg mansion with several pounds of prime beef cooked a night, for he and Helga, not the card table shriners. The dogs got the scraps, the help got the door. What an operation we had. You get people to be servants by telling them that they are now security specialists!
The musicians we had never figured out that their main job was to entertain us and recreate a Euro salon for lyn as he contemplates taking over the world. Damn, we should have had powdered wigs when we threw these nightly bashes.
Helga joined the festivities a little later after feeding her critters by the cement pond we paid for on rented property.
Of course, one needs gallons of fine wine to go with the meat. Which explains why we needed an extra Pontiac Bonnevile for the hooch runs. All that driving around Leesburg gave one of Lyn's big burly NEC wannabe security guy the experience he needed to drive medicare patients around Leesburg County to their medical appointments when the money machine went dry.
If you were considered a "somebody" in the org, you got the invite to the big house. The banquets were also a time to wine and dine our donors who were putting up big bucks and to impress some low level press people from AM radio stations. Poor Barry Farber must have been paid diddly squat by WOR in NYC to be impressed by this Potemkin village pomp and circumstance. The current radio guy Stockwell got the same treatment. I am not sure if Rense made it to the big house as he seems too busy chasing UFO's in the sky and Jews on the ground.
I was crying because I know that a bunch of yutes and dead enders would take this lunacy as being serious. In Warren Hammerman's case, I am wondering why he and his wife left the org a few years later. Warren was one of the founders of the LC and came from the anti war movement. Warren masterd Larouchian economics as he ditched his utility and rent bills in the move to Leesburg. I feel scared mentioning this as I heard about how he used "arm twisting" on his spouse many, many years ago.
If you yutes ever wish to prove a straight line is straight and not a curve, measure the part in Warren's hair. Now that was a straight line on a curved surface.
Lyn was treated quite nicely in jail and got better health care than some of the other dead enders who died of things like prostrate cancer, booze induced liver disease and self inflicted gun shot wounds. Lyn has unlimitied time on the phone in jail, shared a room with Jim Bakker and bamboozled him. Lyn also had William Wertz as his prison bitch. Early in the prison sentence. Lyn and Will entered the same cell and Lyn took over the desk and the desirable bunk and relegated Will to being his man Friday.
Covici is now at the age where he may have to have a colonoscopy. I wonder if he will release a press statement over his conspiracy of mistreatment to silence his web offerings to Lyn.

xlcr4life@hotmail.com
So what does high red meat and booze consumption lead to?
More assasination attempts. This is a release that was spread in numerous BB's in 1989.
And now you know why the yutes start each day singing old Negro Spirituals about Slave days before they march to the card table shrines.
I will give Steve credit for staying in Yale though. Take Johnny Cochran's legal advice Steve:
"When in doubt, you must stay out"

We are still waitng for the yutes views of the Mars Society.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
THE WORLD SHALL HOLD GEORGE BUSH PERSONALLY RESPONSIBLE

Sept. 16, 1989

The following chronology of events describes the gross
mistreatment of political prisoner Lyndon H. LaRouche, Jr.
which occurred during the five days between Sept. 11 and Sept.
15.
Monday, Sept. 11 at 1300 hours, LaRouche was called to
the clinic at the Rochester Federal Medical Facility and told
that later that week he would have a surgical procedure for
the removal of two intestinal polyps. He was instructed to
report back the following day at 1100 hours. He was also told
that he would have a no-residue diet on Tuesday and then would
be on a liquid diet until the procedure.
Tuesday, Sept. 12. After working a full work-shift from
0400 hours to 1200 hours, LaRouche began receiving strong
laxative medication in preparation for the procedure at
approximately 1600 hours. On Tuesday he only ingested egg
whites, coffee, and water. Between 2200 hours and 0200 hours
into Wednesday morning he experienced violent bowel movements
caused by the medication.
Wednesday, Sept. 13. At 0200 hours LaRouche finally fell
asleep. At 0320 hours--less than an hour and a half later--he
was awakened to report to work. LaRouche was forced to work
on Wednesday for the entire work-shift from approximately
0400 to 1200 hours. During the entire day on Wednesday LaRouche
only ingested coffee and water. He was only able to sleep
sporadically on Wednesday evening.
Thursday, Sept. 14. At 0320 LaRouche was awakened for his
normal work-shift, to which he reported at 0400 hours. After
working an entire shift, at approximately 1230 hours LaRouche was
called to the clinic at the Federal Medical Facility, where he
was informed that he would be brought to the Mayo Clinic for a
``test procedure. Officials at the prison had administratively
classified it as a ``test procedure
rather than a ``surgical
procedure. LaRouche was taken in irons into the Mayo Clinic by
two guards, and brought to the area where the procedure would
occur in a wheelchair while in irons. After being interviewed by
the physician responsible for the procedure, he was given a
painkiller intravenously. Because of his accumulated exhaustion
he fell asleep immediately, and slept through the entire
procedure. The surgical procedure lasted approximately one hour,
during which time a polyp was removed from his lower intestine.
After being in the recovery room for three-quarters of an hour,
LaRouche was brought back to the prison where he arrived at
approximately 1530 hours. On Thursday all LaRouche had ingested
was coffee, apple juice, and a bowl of jello. On Thursday evening
he slept from sheer exhaustion.
Friday, Sept. 15. At 0320 LaRouche was awakened to go
to work as normal. At 0500 hours, after just beginning work,
LaRouche had to sit down because he was exhausted. At 0700
hours he was asked to help the other prisoners in a group
work assignment. LaRouche at that time reported to sick bay,
unable to work. He requested to see a doctor. Shortly after
0900 hours, when his doctor had still not come, LaRouche was
called out to see a paralegal visiting him on legal matters.

Comments -

The mistreatment of Lyndon LaRouche, in the context of
previous assignments to heavy labor, reflects an intent of
someone in the prison system to kill him in the obvious way.
If political prisoner Lyndon LaRouche is forced to die
in the prison system, the world and history will read this
as President George Bush's personal intent. Whether that is
true or not, the world will see it so, and fairly. If Lyndon
LaRouche dies in prison, only Bush could be blamed, and fairly
so.
The work assignment of LaRouche requires an estimated
intake of 3,000 calories per day in the estimation of LaRouche
himself--an expert in industrial engineering practice with
over 20 years' experience.
The surgical procedure which LaRouche underwent is
traumatic. In the evaluation of his personal physician:
``Under this condition in West Germany, you are advised
by your physician that you have to rest for the time the laxative
is affecting you, usually two days before the procedure, and
at least one day after the treatment. To my great astonishment,
I learned that Mr. LaRouche had to work during a treatment
with a supposedly strong laxative, and was called for duty
less than 12 hours after his treatment. I feel obliged to
raise my utmost concern about this procedure, and I want to
assure you that this is not lege artis medical treatment you
apply to an elderly patient in Germany.

Just as Lyndon LaRouche was targeted, railroaded, and
imprisoned for his politics, so too he is now being mistreated
in prison for the same reason. George Bush, based on his personal
knowledge and complicity, in events central to LaRouche's
imprisonment, shall be held individually accountable for
LaRouche's fate.
Further precise bulletins on political prisoner Lyndon
LaRouche's situation shall be released as required.

-Warren J. Hamerman
Rochester, Minnesota
September 16, 1989

Please contact the President.

PRESIDENT GEORGE BUSH
THE WHITE HOUSE
1600 PENNSYLVANIA AVE, N.W.
WASHINGTON D.C. 20500

COMMENT LINE IS 202-456-7639 (Does not function on week-ends)
WHITE HOUSE SWITCH BOARD IS 202-456-1414
FAX IS 202-456-2461

08-02-2008, 12:12 AM

KosherSoze

the colonic conspiracy The transcript is good for a laugh, but does anyone know why his shift began at 4am? [if it did] Just sounds a bit harsh for the old fraudster...

08-02-2008, 12:34 AM

borisbad On prison conditions, I might give LOL a pass. I saw the conditions facing John Gotti when he was in general suffering from throat or thyroid cancer I recall. Prison is not known for its humanitarian treatment of prisoners with medical condition, so, it is possible that the prison officials sent LaRue back to work before he should have been medically cleared. However, it is also equally likely that he just wanted to have an excuse to goldbrick. Besides, his experience as an orderly during WWII should have served him in good stead if his laxative kicked in. In all events, I hardly think it qualifies as a murder attempt.

08-02-2008, 08:39 PM

candor

A little news on the European organization:
http://www.larouchepac.com/news/2008/07/30/sheep-panurge.html
which goes to show what a liar LaRouche is.
Lyn, you're ready to DIE - have you no remorse before you shuffle off your twisted coil?

08-03-2008, 04:29 AM

zisepsyche7

Quote:
Originally Posted by xlcr4life
In talking to someone years ago who was a guest at Ibykus many times, I found out that Helga's rage at American TV grew to an extreme boiling point (Elvis shooting the screen anger) when she watched a few episodes of the great TV show "Hogan's Heros". I think she may have mentioned it once at a conference in promoting her "Patriots for Germany" candidates slate in Germany.
Earnest-one, when you mention what Michael Hudson said about the LC and having so many contacts and secret support, keep in mind this. Lyn and security had a few all time favorite movies. Lyn was always a big fan of the original comedy "The Producers". He would often tell people that the movie was real capitalism at work. Years later, one would hear many stories about Lyn working old ladies as a Southern Gentlemen farmer when we invited them to Ibyikus to meet Lyn for dinner.
The next big movie Lyn and the LC loved was "The Sting" with Paul Newman. The lesson there to be learned is that the LC coulod create illusions real easy by calling people all of the time for info and to share info. Some of this would turn into a meeting or two. We could then write something positive about someone using whatever profile we had about their enemies or opposition in an election or in business or politics. We could then take that and use that to call up a bunchof other people and say that "so and so" is meeting with us and asked us to call you". General Danny Graham and others mention this without knowing that it was for everyone, not just them. If the person stoped talking to us, the membership never found out why, just that they were harrased by Kissinger or some other evil enemy of Lyn..
This is all cheap parlor trickery which is both used with contacts and with members. You can create both wide spread support for Lyn by taking a simple phone call by a sector researcher in the National office who stayed on the line with the person. People in certain positions, usually GOP were able to use the LC for many dirty tricks. Many Dems like Ed Koch and some local mayors and officials could use us to spread dirty rumours and do dirty tricks against their opponenets. We would offer to do this and would meet with a staffer to get dirt.
All of this was suppsed to get us into power and lyn to the White House. Whenever a person finally met with lyn, everyhting would evaporate as they soon found out that luyn was nuts . Making money off of this was the final product and lyn did believe his own lunacy and spread more to the LC which also wanted to believe it. Those close friends of Jeff and Paul who all built up Lyn, soon had a pipline of cash coming from Lyn with an estimated 13 million dollars being sent by Lyn to scam artists like The Colonel and Carpet.
Lyn and security should have watched "The Sting" a little more closely to see how con artists themselves get swallowed by con artists.

This is one of the best delusionary interviews done by Lyn. This is Monty Python worthy.

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200511/22/eng20051122_223150.html

File photo shows Lyndon H. LaRouche, Jr. is making a speech in October, 2005, in Washington, US.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lyndon H. LaRouche, Jr. is an American political activist and founder of various political organizations in the United States and elsewhere. He is perhaps best known for being a "perennial candidate" for U.S. Presidency, having set a minor record for most consecutive attempts at the office by running eight times; Harold Stassen ran for President nine times, but not consecutively. LaRouche has run for the Democratic nomination for President in every election year since 1980, including in 1992 while he was in prison. Yet he and his "LaRouche movement" have gained only limited electoral support, although he has received some support in Democratic presidential primaries.
Although he has no formal qualifications, LaRouche has written extensively on economic, scientific, political, and cultural topics. Critics consider him to be a conspiracy theorist and political attention-seeker. He is frequently described as an extremist, cult leader, a communist, a fascist, and an anti-Semite, all of which he denies. LaRouche is regarded by his followers as a brilliant individual who for political reasons has been unfairly persecuted.
In 1988 LaRouche was sentenced to fifteen years imprisonment for conspiracy, mail fraud, and tax code violations. He continued his political activities from behind bars. He was released in 1994 on parole after having served five years.
LaRouche lists his formal position as a director and contributing editor of the Executive Intelligence Review News Service, a core part of the LaRouche movement.
Recently Yong Tang, People's Daily Online Washington-based staff writer, has conducted an exclusive interview with LaRouche at his home in Virginia.


Yong Tang: Let's turn to your political life. As I know, you have run for the Democratic nomination for President in every election year since 1980 and you lost the election every time.
LaRouche: No, I won every time. it's not winning a prize. Running for President is influencing the future of the country. When you run for President repeatedly and seriously, when you are a serious personality, not some fool or clown, what happens is that you become a part of the Presidential system. You are called upon to advise the government. For instance, I wasn't a member of government, but I worked for President Reagan on the negotiation with the Soviet Union, on the SDI (Strategic Defense Initiative) proposal and other things.
Yong Tang: What is your professional title in the elections?
LaRouche: I'm just the head of my own association. But that's the way it functions. You become a recognized political figure of the institutions of government. And you're recognized as being a part of the presidential system. So technically, I'm a part of the presidential system. I've run officially and been qualified as a candidate. I've run as a candidate. I influence politics. I consult with people in all kinds of layers in politics. I consult with international people. I advise my government on various kinds of things, when it's willing, from time to time. So I'm a part of the system of government of the United States, in this capacity. That's the way our system works.
Particularly with the presidential system, in which you become a permanent part of the actual government, without you actually holding any office, but you become, by common Understanding, a part of the system. And I'm a part of the system of government of the United States.
Yong Tang: But every time you just failed.
LaRouche: Not at all. It's like how many battles does a soldier fight? He keeps fighting the battles. Why? Because he's a soldier.
Yong Tang: So next time in 2008 you're going to run for President again?
LaRouche: I don't plan to because of my age. I could run. But I've got to think about the future. My job now is to create the selection of the next President of the United States. You know in China, you sometimes go to a higher position from being an official. And when you become a higher level than an official, your responsibility is to help select and train the people who will run this country. That's my job.
Yong Tang: So that is why you are turning to a youth movement in America?
LaRouche: I created a youth movement because we needed it, and that nobody else knew how to do it. Because they forgot. They lost the understanding of the youth movement.
Yong Tang: You are a big shot here. But it seems you are much more famous overseas than here in America. You have a large number of followers among young people.
LaRouche: (Laughing) You walk into a room here and mention my name, you could start a riot, especially in Washington, D.C. You mention my name. Aaaaaaaaaaargh!
Yong Tang: (laughing) A troublemaker! So you are trying to cultivate the younger generation to follow you?
LaRouche: No, I am trying to create a new younger generation. You see I have all these young people around me. They represent a lot of potential. They need the opportunity of self-development. They don't know how to do it. But I know how to get them to do it. To develop themselves.
Yong Tang: What is your approach?
LaRouche: I give those young people a sense of independence. I find they don't need too much. The potential is there. They need help. They need advice. And once you give them advice, and they come back and ask you a few questions here and there. I get a lot of questions. And they do it themselves.
The best way to have a permanent effect on the youth is not to do it for them or to tell them what to do. The best way is to get them to do it for themselves. Then they have independent capabilities. And the people who lead the future of America must have independent capabilities. They must not be simply people who wait for orders. They have to have the independent sense of their own capability.
Yong Tang: you said the Soviet government wanted to kill you because you were a dangerous person?
LaRouche: Yes, I became a threat at that time for the Soviet Union. I became a threat because I was a power in the United States at that point. So therefore they had a public attack.
Yong Tang: On you? and they tried to kill you?
LaRouche: Well, Gorbachev's wife was used for this purpose. Her name is Raisa and she controlled a whole series of publications, so-called cultural publications in the Soviet Union. And this and other institutions were used to demand my killing. "Imprison or kill him!". "Imprison or kill him!"The Soviet press was full of this.
Reagan was going to Reykavik for a so-called summit meeting with Gorbachev. And on the week before that, 400 people came to kill me, official people.
Yong Tang: 400 people? To kill you?
LaRouche: Yeah. Well the 400 was to run an operation in the whole area, but there was a special team there which was assigned to come in and kill me. So I sent a telegram to Reagan, and that night the order came down to stop it.
Yong Tang: Who came down to stop it?
LaRouche: Well, Reagan gave an order, the Reagan Administration gave an order to the head of the Justice Department to stop it.
Yong Tang: To stop the Soviet....
LaRouche: From killing me. Not to kill me. So later they decided to send me to prison. And that was George Bush Senior, who was involved in saying yes to that.
Yong Tang: But why?
LaRouche: Because I'm a part of the Presidential system.
Yong Tang: How did they make a good excuse for that?
LaRouche: They make one up. That's easy. The United States system is very good in that. They can make excuses. They can kill anybody they want to kill and they can make it look legal. There's no problem.
Yong Tang: The government charged that you never repaid $200,000 of loans.
LaRouche: That wasn't our fault. They did, I didn't do it. The government did it.
Yong Tang: But I don't quite understand...
LaRouche: They faked the figures.
Yong Tang: But I still don't understand how this works.
LaRouche: They had a judge in Alexandria. They have a special system inside the United States Government which was set up in this form under Teddy Roosevelt. It was set up by the creation of the National Bureau of Investigation, which later became the FBI. You have a secret element of the U.S. Government, which is buried inside the Justice Department. It's called the Internal Security Apparatus. It's the most secret part of the Government, the Internal Security Apparatus. It's actually controlled by groups of bankers and law firms from New York City and so forth, who are tied into this entity.
And any time you want to get rid of someone who is high-level as I was, they go into this section of government which cooperates under various names, which is actually the secret internal security apparatus. The judge of the Alexandria. Virginia Federal court is the judge for this system. Anytime they want to kill someone or send them to prison, who is high-level, he ends up with charges in Alexandria before the judge who is the chief judge of that court. And anyone who is sent into that court will be convicted of anything.
Yong Tang: Bu they should have a charge.
LaRouche: Hahaha! The charge was conspiracy.
Yong Tang: What was the charge for you?
LaRouche: Thirteen counts of conspiracy.
Yong Tang: Conspiracy for what?
LaRouche: All kinds of things. It was crazy. Insane. But it can only work in that way. They put me on trial in Boston and they lost the case. So before the case was officially closed, I was actually exonerated, but technically not. So they reopened the trial under different auspices in Alexandria and it's automatic. The trial was in Boston. I won the case in Boston.
Yong Tang: You won it?
LaRouche: Well, I won it with the court.
Yong Tang: So they moved you somewhere else and retried you?
LaRouche: Yeah. Under new charges. Which is conspiracy. Only conspiracy. It's that simple. It was a short trial. It was over.
Yong Tang: It was about financial matter?
LaRouche: Well, it's all kinds of things. They tried to make it financial, but actually it was all done by the government, everything they accused me of was actually done by the government. You see, what the government did was they bankrupted a firm illegally. The government did the illegal act.
Yong Tang: Then they put you under bankruptcy?
LaRouche: The losses from the bankruptcy were the basis for the charges. Later, the thing was ruled as being an illegal bankruptcy. But they charged that it was not a bad faith error, it was just an error. If it had been a bad faith error, there would have had to be a new trial, and would have gotten the whole thing over. The former President George W Bush was the key President in charge, who was responsible for this. And he hates me to this day.
Yong Tang: You could have hired very competent lawyers to defend yourself.
LaRouche: The United States has a secret dictatorship built into it. Don't believe this stuff about democracy. (Laughter).
Yong Tang: Just like Saddam Hussein?
LaRouche: Saddam Hussein was, of course, cruder. These people are slightly more refined. Not that much, but slightly more. When they want to kill, they kill.
Yong Tang: How did you feel at that time?
LaRouche: I understood.
Yong Tang: You understood?
LaRouche: Sure.
Yong Tang: You accepted your fate?
LaRouche: No, I didn't accept it. I understood it. There's a difference.
Yong Tang: Oh, you understood.
LaRouche: I understood that in my time I will do what I have to do.
Yong Tang: You mean you run for president?
LaRouche: That's right. You decide what you have to do. They knew it, OK, they did it. You can't go around weeping about it. You have to decide what you're going to do.
Yong Tang: You didn't cry?
LaRouche: No, you don't cry in warfare. If you're a soldier you don't cry.
Yong Tang: How many years did you spend in prison?
LaRouche: Five years.
Yong Tang: Where was it?
LaRouche: In Rochester, Minnesota.
Yong Tang: Was it a prison only for political prisoners?
LaRouche: No, political prisoners go to various places, but that is a place which tended to be a special concentration of political prisoners. It was a general prison. The prison was established as an off-shoot of the Mayo Clinic in Rochester. They used to have a mental hospital there, which was a public mental hospital. So the Federal government bought this mental hospital and they turned it into a prison.
My judgment was that this was a center where they would house people who had medical problems and who were political prisoners. Because the Mayo Clinic would provide the medical services. And this facility had a hospital in it. So you would have this prison, and political prisoners would tend to go there. They would go there because they had some medical thing, or something like that, you could send them there.
Yong Tang: How do you think of the treatment you received while you stayed there?
LaRouche: It was fixed. Because a lot of people in the system of government knew exactly what the case was. So the warden of the prison and some of the officials knew exactly what the case was. They knew I was a political prisoner. They didn't bother me.
Yong Tang: They didn't bother you?
LaRouche: Ah, but then you had a section of the security apparatus in the prison which belonged to the other side. So we had some threats. There was one effort to induce a heart attack, which didn't work. But the news got out, and they got slapped in the face for trying. So after that, I had minimal problems inside the prison.
During the first year I was there there was this effort to have me eliminated. But after they got caught at it, and there was a complaint about it from Washington, then they backed off.
Yong Tang: How could you survive it? Five years is a long time.
LaRouche: With my personality I survive all kinds of things. When you get to be an old soldier, you survive a lot. And the way you survive is being yourself.
Yong Tang: What did you do every day?
LaRouche: Well, I did what I should. I did what I was supposed to do, and I helped people when I could.
Yong Tang: Help people? How?
LaRouche: Well, prisoners are there. They've problems. They've got psychological problems. They've got all kinds of problems. They have fears, they have anxieties. They're human beings.
Yong Tang: Bill Jones, one of your friend once said that you organized a musical group in the prision.
LaRouche: We did all kinds of things. Since I was very much with civil rights and the history of civil rights, I became involved in various things around that. You know, people came around and they knew you have been in politics and so forth, and they came to you with their problems. They had their personal problems they want to talk about, they wanted someone to talk to. You became involved in being good to people.
Yong Tang: You had written some books while you were in prison?
LaRouche: I wrote some, yes.
Yong Tang: How man books?
LaRouche: Oh, several. What I did is that I wrote a lot of things. And some of them became books, and some other things were turned into parts of books.
Yong Tang: How did you write books in prison?
LaRouche: I just wrote them.
Yong Tang: Did you have pens? Reference books?
LaRouche: Yes, I had materials. I was able to write, and send out what I wrote.
Yong Tang: So you didn't call somebody up and ask him to write down what you wanted to say?
LaRouche: I called and talked to people on the telephone. I just wrote what I wrote.
Yong Tang: What are the titles of these books?
LaRouche: One was on cold fusion, on the implications of cold fusion. We also wrote a composite book on railroads, two volumes. And a lot of articles. I was constantly busy, doing interviews...
Yong Tang: You could accept interviews in the prison?
LaRouche: Yes. We had certain restrictions, but we could do it.
Yong Tang: Who interviewed you?
LaRouche: A lot of people. Mostly my people, radio stations, things like that.
Yong Tang: How did you feel as a political prisoner in America?
LaRouche: Well I was concerned about what I was doing, there wasn't much...
Yong Tang: You were proud of being in prison?
LaRouche: Yea, sure. Not that I liked to be in prison. That was not my profession. But I felt good about myself, should we say. Not about my conditions.
By Yong Tang, People's Daily Online Washington-based Staff Writer


xlcr4life@hotmail.com

He claims to give young ppl a sense of independce huh? That is both laughable and said...when one sees not only how these yutes live but esp. their state of mind and the fact that they seem to ramble and talk in circles and have had their lives stolen from them (and don't object to this, in fact they are completely unaware of this) and seem to think they are doing The GOOD, one has to ponder.....Also, anyone who has been to these banquets, please elaborate more on what they were like! I also would like to add that I think the yutes who are joining have a misplaced sense of self and usually come from messed up families

08-04-2008, 05:34 PM

earnest_one

More Humor If you look for the guy LL is ranting about in Google (without using quotes around the name you'll find this guy:
http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm...ndid=310784618
The first and last name are reversed, but perhaps it is the same guy in an alternate universe (an XLCR bizarro-type universe), albeit one that co-exists and/or overlaps with this one.
Long Live MySpace Metal Music Rockers!

08-04-2008, 06:41 PM

earnest_one

Clarification Sorry folks: I should have mentioned that I was referring to Candor's post, above, and the link that he/she provided where ex-members are excoriated by LL.
LL RANTS at virtually everyone and everything, and so readers might be slightly confused and think I was referring to the long interview with the Chinese.

08-04-2008, 08:29 PM

xlcr4life

1 Attachment(s) More members dying off?

Quote:
Originally Posted by candor
A little news on the European organization:
http://www.larouchepac.com/news/2008/07/30/sheep-panurge.html
which goes to show what a liar LaRouche is.
Lyn, you're ready to DIE - have you no remorse before you shuffle off your twisted coil?

A few things to address here. There should be a picture below of Raimondi next to someone who recently died in Europe Giovanni Cilli. Cilli, according to the obit in the Italian org translation I looked at
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=it&u=http://www.movisol.org/ulse261.htm&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=3&ct=result&prev=/search?q=di+Giovanni+Cilli&gbv=2&hl=en&sa=N
joined at 30 and died at 49.
The Italian is here for anyone who can extract some more info such as when he passed away as I can't be sure of the google translation.
http://www.movisol.org/ulse261.htm

KosherSoze the colonic conspiracy
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The transcript is good for a laugh, but does anyone know why his shift began at 4am? [if it did] Just sounds a bit harsh for the old fraudster...

Koshersoze. I think Lyn's work detail in prison was working the breakfast shift in prison. In that case, starting at 4 AM is about right as his shift was over at 12:30 PM. I do not know why Lyn is complaining since he used to brag to everyone that he could stay up for days saving humanity and sleep is a sign of weakness. The fine print is what very few members know about which is that according to a few ex members who were very close to Lyn in the 1970s, he benefited from B12 injections, which coupled with endless coffee intoxication would keep him up for days. I do not know if that is entirely correct, but a few ex members have confirmed that as well as pointing out that Lyn had a few health issues which required injections where B12 is part of the regiment. I can never forget poor Allen Salsibury complaining to us how he is so sad because he has to go to sleep eventually and can't work 24 hours around the clock for Lyn.
Well, he worked for Lyn, recieved LaroucheNoCare and is now sleeping eternally .
Most people who reach 50 are due for a colonscopy. I happen to be quite familiar with these procedures and most MDs will tell you to eat lightly for a few days before the procedure to mimimise the laxative side effects. You are placed into a groggy drugged state so you can be semi alert to respond to the MD performing this procedure. Most people who havbe this procedure ar eback at work the next day like my fellow employees.
This quote from the press release is hilarious.
"The work assignment of LaRouche requires an estimated
intake of 3,000 calories per day in the estimation of LaRouche
himself--an expert in industrial engineering practice with
over 20 years' experience.'
No wonder Lyn had ahard time if he was consuming 3,000 calories a day with his high meat consumption and the magnesium citrate hit him hard the night before.

zisepsyche7 A lot of the descriptions of Ibykus are found in the trial testimony of a few members in the Va trial. In will see if they are available on a place like laroucheplanet.info. If not, then I guess all of the testimony needs to be placed in the piublic domain. Ibykus was run as special events center for guests. Several members were placed there under the guise of security who were really servants, cooks and staff. When you had a real highroller you wanted to impress, they were offered a meeting with Lyn over dinner where Lyn was on his best behaviour and had members entertain them with food,, drink and song. Musicians were sent to Ibykus to perform and Lyn behaved as a Southern Gentleman horse famer in manners and opulence. Just watch some scenes with Bialistock in the movie "The Producers" to see how it is done on old ladies and their investments.
In the trials, Lyn attempted to explain that he does not have to pay income taxes since he has no income and has no idea of where all of this came from. The jury was listening and seeing endless records of expenses for swimming pools, driveway expansion for more cars, enormous food bills, incredible utility bills, musicians being summoned from all of the USA and European org to perform at Ibykus and a count of how many people slaved there. Lyn is quite the delusionary beast who will believe his own delusions to the point that the swimming pool was not a swimming pool, but a "firewall" to protect the main house.
One estimation of the expenses at Ibykus had the whole place costing over 10 Grand a month for just utilitites, food, telephones and maintainance. That is probably using LC as slave labor where those costs do not show up right away. So I could see over 50K a month at the bare minimum for labor costs.

LYM and LYMettes, you need to read these court records to see just what sort of criminal mind and enterprise you are involved in. Lyn is an old and experienced bunko player who can take for a ride as well as get taken for a ride.
http://laroucheplanet.info/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=Money.Transcripts

We have asked poor Barbara Boyd to come clean with these court records for the whole LC/LYM to read, but she is just too busy keeping Zeke alive it seems.
Do not worry Barbara. There are hundreds of more pages which will be placed for everyone to read and enjoy. The world needs to know why you and Zeke are just slowly rusting away in Leesburg while Jeff and Michelle are planning vacations, trips, balancing check books with off LC income sources you do not know about and waving good bye to Zeke.
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

08-05-2008, 09:24 AM

c256

Even worse than you thought. Cilli died at 49 and didn't join at age 30, he HAD BEEN IN THE ORG FOR 30 YEARS, so that means he joined at 19.

08-06-2008, 12:07 AM

howie

No particular reason to post this, as it illimunates roughly nothing. But, if you are like me and have "Larouche" keyed in a search, you know that the Pittsburgh Pirates have a player on their roster named Larouche and another named Laroche.:
http://www.serioussportsnewsnetwork.com/2008/08/pirates-sign-lyndon-larouche-in-effort-to-have-all-laroches-and-larouches-on-team.html
Pirates sign Lyndon Larouche in effort to have all Laroches and LaRouches on team
PITTSBURGH, PA — The Pittsburgh Pirates announced today that they are signing quadrennial presidential candidate Lyndon LaRouche, with the intention of amassing all living LaRoches/LaRouches on their roster. The invective spewing conspiracy theorist will join Adam and Andy Laroche, who man the corner infield positions. "Always nice to meet another Laroche," said Andy. "I think Lyndon will really fit in here. We have a good young team developing." Lyndon LaRouche, who is 86, will likely play second base, occasionally moving to shortstop to give Jack Wilson a night off. "The unchecked greed and dishonesty of the West will result in the end of American life as we know it," LaRouche said. "Go Bucs!"
.......................................
And tangentally related to something. Take it however you want.:
http://www.designobserver.com/archives/entry.html?id=38772

08-07-2008, 11:02 PM

eaglebeak

Prison Daze

I agree that prison can be pretty harsh. But honestly, I don't believe Lyn's imprisonment was harsh at all. He had an enormous amount of time on his hands to dictate all kinds of crap to the National Office--virtually endless attacks on various members, denunciations of our lawyers, rewrites of history to improve his own dramatic role, etc.--all for transcription by Denise Henderson, for publication in the briefing, the paper, the EIR, etc .... He wrote one or two "books" while in prison. He was on the phone every day "analyzing" the world situation. He met with all sorts of people. He ran for Congress.
I think he had a pretty easy time of it. And, I need hardly say, no one tried to kill him.
Lyn had time to emit (as he would say) an extraordinarily vicious attack on Ed Spannaus and Ed's work on John Marshall very shortly after Ed's and Nancy's older son Michael was killed in a car accident. Mind you, Ed was in prison, Michael was dead at 19--and Lyn was attacking Ed. Astonishing--unless you know Lyn. My information is that Carol White called Lyn up and told him to stop it, that his behavior was disgusting.
Interestingly, Ed and Nancy are still soldiering on in the org--one wonders if there is anything, anything at all, that Lyn could do to them that would drive them out. (Clearly nothing he could do to anyone else would drive them out--they took Ken Kronberg's death with relative equanimity, as also Lyn's attacks on Fernando, the death of Jeremiah Duggan, the slanders against Molly Kronberg and countless others, etc.).
Lyn had time to commit libel per se against various of our lawyers--Larry Hochheiser, Jeff Hoffman, Mike Morganroth come to mind--by calling them shysters. These three lawyers from the New York trial (plus Kenny Aronson and Susan Wolf) were "shysters" because--why? Because after Lyn gave the most unresponsive and incredible testimony (that is to say, false--another word for it might be perjurious, but I don't want to get technical), none of these lawyers wanted to "rehabilitate" him by doing a redirect examination.
Lyn has always held that they failed him (not his trial, but who cares?) by not "rehabilitating" him with redirect, but of course the man was unrehabilitatable, and everyone at the defense table--that's EVERYONE (please note, Barbara, Bruce et al.)--agreed: Get him off the stand before he completely mangles the defense.
In short, Lyn wasn't worked all that hard in prison. He had huge amounts of time to make huge numbers of idiotic, lying, and mean-spirited statements about all sorts of people and things.
P.S. Thank you, XLCR, for printing the uproarious press release.

08-08-2008, 10:07 PM

localgreek

The Steinbergs

It was mentioned not too long ago that the Steinberg's lead a relatively normal life in terms of comfort and freedom. If anyone can explain more details of how this is possible in the cult, it would be much appreciated. Does LL not rule over them? Are they to take over once LL goes?

08-09-2008, 02:14 AM

poe

Quote:
Originally Posted by eaglebeak
Mind you, Ed was in prison, Michael was dead at 19--and Lyn was attacking Ed. Astonishing--unless you know Lyn. My information is that Carol White called Lyn up and told him to stop it, that his behavior was disgusting.



I would love to see Carol write either a biography of LaRouche and/or a history of the organization. It would be much more interesting than anything either his enemies or his followers could write.

08-09-2008, 05:18 AM

scrimscraw

Quote:
Originally Posted by poe
I would love to see Carol write either a biography of LaRouche and/or a history of the organization. It would be much more interesting than anything either his enemies or his followers could write.

I'm not sure who the author is of the multi-chapter history of the NCLC in the library at LaRouchePlanet.info (listed, as I recall, as "UnityNow"), but it's pretty good. Internal evidence would seem to indicate that it is by a former member, though I'm not sure why it took them 20 years to get the manuscript out that was apparently originally written circa 1988.

08-09-2008, 06:07 AM

xlcr4life

Quote:
Originally Posted by scrimscraw
I'm not sure who the author is of the multi-chapter history of the NCLC in the library at LaRouchePlanet.info (listed, as I recall, as "UnityNow"), but it's pretty good. Internal evidence would seem to indicate that it is by a former member, though I'm not sure why it took them 20 years to get the manuscript out that was apparently originally written circa 1988.

Amazing material is written there which often corresponds with what ever topic happens to be mentioned here. The last few pages have been about the international colonoscopy assasination plot against Lyn in prison. Somehow, this plot was to be so top secret that it was going to take place in one of the USA's best medical facilities, the Mayo Clinic. If you reread that international press release, it claims that Lyn had his colon scoped and a polyp removed while in a wheelchair! That Mayo Clinic is far more sophisticated than many of us ever imagined.
LaRouche was called to the clinic at the Federal Medical Facility, where he was informed that he would be brought to the Mayo Clinic for a ``test procedure. Officials at the prison had administratively classified it as a ``test procedure rather than a ``surgical procedure.'' LaRouche was taken in irons into the Mayo Clinic by two guards, and brought to the area where the procedure would occur in a wheelchair while in irons."

There is something else to notice in how this big time ASSisination colonoscopy caper was going to be pulled off. No, there were no Cuban frog men hiding in one of Minnesota's ten thousand lakes, but there could have been. Notice how so much effort is focused on the use of the word "test" vs "'surgical procedure". What one finds out as you approach mid life in the 50s is that your MD will usually recommend a colonoscopy with a specialist using a scope. The usual way to tell this to a patient is that they will be going in for a test. While undergoing a colonoscopy, the MD peforming this may spot polyps and at that time remove them for biopsy in a lab for cancer. If you read up on this you wil see that there is a level of risk of a perforated colon which is why you do these in hospitals more than private clinics at the time Lyn has his work done.
LYM and LYMettes, why don't we just head off to the web site of the mayo clinic and see what a 74 year old male said about his colonoscopy.
http://www.mayoclinic.org/checkup-20...scopy-nov.html
"At the age of 74, however, he had simply never had the screening test for colon cancer, which is recommended for all people over 50. His doctor urged him to get one.
"I was healthy in that respect, so I didn't know I should have a colonoscopy," says Driscoll. "But I do whatever my doctors tell me I should, so I had one."
The procedure itself was "absolutely nothing to go though," Driscoll says. The worst part was the preparation the night before, but going through it turned out to be a lifesaving experience.'
Here is what the mayo clinic writes about how to prepare for your colonoscopy. Obviusly a 20 year Industrial expert like Lyn was not consulted.
http://www.mayoclinic.org/medical-edge-newspaper-2008/june-13b.html
It would have been highly suspicious if Lyn had a colonoscopy done and was sent back to prison without the polyps being removed. If Lyn was sent back a few times for this, I would be complaining to various authorities.
But what does the Mayo clinic itself write about what may happen to you? Let's go find out, shall we.
http://www.mayoclinic.org/colon-cancer/diagnosis.html
"Colonoscopy: This technique allows the doctor to directly view the entire colon with a thin, lighted, flexible tube called an endoscope. The endoscope contains a tiny camera. Small polyps may be removed during an exam. Colonoscopy is the best diagnostic tool currently available for colon cancer. Some patients find the necessary bowel preparation inconvenient and uncomfortable. The examination also may include some discomfort, and patients may be given a mild sedative. The exam takes about 30 minutes. "
In Lyn's case we have a test/procedure which is usually done in a half hour and one polyp was removed for a total time of one hour. I think Lyn did quite well as there was no perforation of the bowel and was sent to recovery after this.
Do any of you deadenders or citizens of LaroucheTown find this all so absurd that it qualifies as a Bizarro World episode?

What brought this all about was a few emails from readers who along with ScrimSaw point out the great research being placed on laroucheplanet.info I had to laugh very hard when I read the title here of going from "species to feces consciousness by the author or authors. Back in the day, the term "blocking " was used frequently which in Lyn's writings cold indicate both mental and fecal blocking. Another phrase often heard was "turd rolling" which I guessed back then meant being overly concerned about "facts" and empiracal evidence. Being pretty stupid back then, I did not view all of this as clues to force me to exit this lunacy.
For the LYM , LYMettes and LCers past and present, here is the text version from laroucheplanet.info. There is some editing needed, but it does the trick.
http://laroucheplanet.info/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=Library.UnityNow11


THINK DOWN YOUR COLON": OR HOW LAROUCHE WENT FROM "SPECIES" TO "FECES CONSCIOUSNESS"- APPENDIX TO THE CHRIS WHITE AFFAIR
< The Chris White Affair in context | NEW STUDY | Appendix: the Possible "Newtonian" Origin Of "Beyond Psychoanalysis"? >
Pdf file downloadable here (132 Kb)

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One of Lyndon LaRouche's most bizarre claims during the Chris White affair was that White could have. All kinds of wonderful things can be done, in the name of science.
LaRouche's notion made little sense. Why wouldn't the CIA or KGB simply program White to throw him self out a window? Any autopsy would show that he would have died by taking cyanide. Yet LaRouche was so committed to his scenario that he argued that repeating the mantra "CIA rats eat ****" would show that a member of the NCLC had not been tampered with!1
Yet LaRouche's ideas about feces were central to his broader views of human psychology and can be found in his "Beyond Psychoanalysis" writings. LaRouche's also discusses **** in his 21 August 1974 polemic against Centers for Change guru Fred Newman entitled "Marxism and Existentialist Socialism." Here LaRouche writes:
Much of the psychological warfare technology developed by Tavistock, the RAND Corporation and other fascist think-tanks concentrates upon identifying the particular scato-psycho pathologies specific to various national cultures and their principal component classes. It happens that the endemic forms in capitalist society (in particular) correspond to the potential of the atomized individual to become a fascist, provided he is reduced by lumpenization to such an infantile state in an appropriate way.
LaRouche continues,
The individual who employs the term ("****"). . . does so because his own infantile fears enable him to more or less accurately project the effect of the "****" attack upon the intended victim of sadomasochistic psychological violence.
The year 1974 also saw the publication of another document that discusses "****"': Christine Berl's Resignation Statement. Only here the only one identified as attacking their "intended victim" with "sadomasochistic psychological violence" was Lyndon LaRouche. Berl recalls that in the "Beyond Psychoanalysis" sessions that she experienced:
The obsession with **** and the endless stream of scatological and sadistic humor issuing from Marcus around this obsession successfully and repeatedly reduced all the individuals in the sessions to the level of animals.
They were forced to concede that a large portion of their thinking could be reduced to a preoccupation with ****, and especially the fear of this preoccupation. Women were hit particularly viciously with this form of reductionism, even to the point of tracing their sexuality to the proximity of the anus and the vagina with only the thin strip of the perineum distinguishing the two. Marcus claimed that this anatomical peculiarity was the origin of women's feelings of degradation, since it gave rise to the confusion of the sexual act with the act of excretion. It is hardly an exaggeration to say this was a radical departure from classical Marxism.
LaRouche even raised his fascination with feces to philosophical dimensions.2 He claimed that "empiricism/reductionism" model that included everyone from David Hume to B.F. Skinner to Jean-Paul Sartre was a manifestation of a "little hard ball" or "monad" psychology based on an infantile notion of feces. When LaRouche popularized the phrase "You're blocking" he meant it both in a mental and physical sense since he believed that the real problem with truly grasping dialectical thinking, gestalt creativity, "species consciousness," etc., was due to a kind of mental constipation rooted in physical constipation. By "unblocking," seemingly ordinary individuals could develop into creative geniuses.
From Challenge of Left Hegemony issued in May 1973:
The "crap" you discover . . . represents powerful, pain-induced compulsions. Listen carefully and hear not the depersonalized compulsions, but the voice of your parents, etc. The "crap" you find in you is all something done to you brutally by your parents (and others) who have acted viscously toward you in their capacity as the mediators of capitalist culture . . . Dig deeply into yourself and you will really begin to discover the hideous things done to you, especially about the time you were bowel-trained.
The anxiety you feel as you begin to call up and reckon with the crap induced by you by your parents, et al, is the punishment being inflicted upon you by your idealized parents and others within your mental life.
In his article on the PSP in the Campaigner, LaRouche states,
There is a direct connection between this sort of phenomenon [the individual being reduced to a "Schwaermerei" of a lost sense of "I" and then being restored to a "self-conscious" identity] and the remedying of even severe psychosomatic illnesses.
Intestinal psychosomatic involvements and migraine headache syndromes are among the most accessible to remedy in this way. (Indeed, the variety of disturbances falsely deemed of organic etiology which are suspicious of remedy or significant improvement through analysis indicates that psychosomatic medicine is of far greater importance and engages much more of the realm of "organic" disorders than is usually admitted even by professionals.). . . (my italics)
The link between psychological disorder and somatic disorders is shown to be connected to this psycho pathology is through the mediation of the fundamental emotion, which is obviously linked to proprioceptive and ACTH dynamics.
"THINK DOWN YOUR COLON"
LaRouche also discusses "****" in his 3 January 1974 speech, where he attacks R. D. Laing, the former Tavistock clinic psychiatrist, as a brainwasher:
structuralists like Laing are very instrumental. Laing's psychology, if you look at it with the understanding that I have of it, is an argument, an apology for brainwashing.
You know what "being-in-the-world" is? ****. That's right. That's what it means psychologically. That's what it means in
brainwashing. They take away your father. Your father's nothing. Your mother doesn't love you, your sister, and so forth. Look at you, you little id. You little failure, you nothing. Look. You know what you are? Think down. Think down your colon. Go along that transverse colon. Go down the descending colon. Come to the sigmoid. There's where you are. That's you. You're nothing. I won't repeat the phrasing, because if anyone has had a programming experience - if there's a sleeper in the audience - he would freak out. Or probably would freak out. That's Laing. The brainwasher or programmer who has to do the job simply translates Laing into its practical form. Laing is not human. Laing and Hitler belong in the same category. With Hitler maybe slightly higher up in the moral scale.
In "Marxism and Existential Socialism," LaRouche elaborates on how someone reduced to a feeling of id terror and worthlessness and fear, will willingly enters into a state of bonding with a group whose magical rites he believes will protect him from the terror lurking outside:
The victim is reduced to an infantile state, in which his psychological existence depends upon the availability of a "mother surrogate," either an individual (as in the hypnotic or "Manchurian Candidate" form of brainwashing) or upon an immediate group which acts for him as a collective "mother." In this state, the "child" has lost all sense of reality of cause-effect relations in the world "outside" the surrogate mother's immediate domain.
In this circumstance, the irrationality ("absurdity") of the outer world is seen to be prevented from destroying him only by "mother's magic." The process of propitiating the surrogate mother becomes the center of suggestibility, to graft onto the residue of his infantile beliefs a set of beliefs which correspond to the propitiatory verbal and other interpersonal acts (e.g., rituals of touching and feeling) which he regards as "survival mechanism" within the group. That induced pathological state is the only significant meaning of the term, "belief structure" ....
In reality, it was the members of the NCLC who found that they had "lost all sense of reality of cause-effect relations in the world 'outside'" the hermetic environment of the cult.
In his essay "The Real CIA" in the "Tavistock" Campaigner (part 1), LaRouche again discusses at length the use of "small group" brainwashing methods and their employment against physically and mentally beaten down social groups:
In all instances, individual brainwashing or in "small group" control, the essential method deployed is measured use of the techniques adduced in clinical studies of the inducing of "war neurosis" in the victims. . . .
"War Neurosis." Under the strain of what appears to be "infinitely extended" pain or stress, the victim tends to make the unendurable tolerable by what can be broadly termed disassociation. The mind retreats, by one trick or another, from knowledge of the stress or pain which it regards as otherwise unendurable.
The primary neurotic mechanism for so disassociating the victim's self-awareness from the stress is reaction formation. This is crudely illustrated for our present purposes by reference to what might be termed the "Bettelheim syndrome," the common experience from the inmates of the Nazi concentration camp in which the victims of psychological stress identified with the SS guards.
Former NEC member Christine Berl's l974 Resignation Statement documented LaRouche's "ego-stripping" "Beyond Psychoanalysis" sessions and how they were aimed at first humiliating an individual down to the id/ "****" level before then transferring the individual's sense of identity back into an identification with the "Logos Principle" (embodied, of course, in LaRouche) in order to escape further attack.
In summing up his discussion of "Tavistock" brainwashing methods, LaRouche then actually and accurately describeed the very experience that the NCLC collectively went through just a few months earlier:
1) The example of "war neurosis" as a model for developing sophisticated methods of inducing desired forms of neurotic and psychotic states in both individuals (brainwashing) and controlled groups. 2) The use of the basic neurotic mechanism of mother-image domination and "mother's fears" as the key to the dynamic approach to stress-induced neurotic or psychotic forms of "belief system" modification and "attitude change." 3) The concentration of psychological terror in "attack therapy" itself upon those particular forms of "anal fears" identified as characteristic of each national-cultural grouping.
.... In short, it is the Tavistock fascists concentration upon the fears associated with the pseudo-mother within the neurotic victim, and playing upon anal-psychological fears most emphatically which is the main thrust of the brainwasher's "attack therapy" within the police-created aversive controlled environment.
Here LaRouche -consciously or unconsciously - projects onto the "Tavistock Institute" and "the CIA" the very practices that he implemented inside the NCLC beginning in the summer of 1973 with leading European cadre and which ultimately culminated in the utter debacle of the Chris White affair.
ENTER THE HOMINTERN
During the Chris White affair, LaRouche's interest in "anal fears" also was unrelenting. He repeatedly and graphically elaborated on the idea that both Chris White and Bill Engdahl had suffered homosexual rape.
From LaRouche's 3 January 1974 speech:
I ask you to contemplate the high voltage electro-convulsive shock therapy. I ask you to contemplate eating **** as a way of getting less pain. I ask you to contemplate sucking a penis as a way of getting less pain. I ask you to contemplate sitting for hours with a bottle shoved up your rectum as a way of easing pain.
And there are some more real beauties. The best of them all - you know what it is? Svoboda. How does the program end? Svoboda. You're free. The person goes into a final total caricature sort of steppin-fetchit homosexual act. Pathetic. Worse. Like a dead cow. It begins to die. He's free. Automatic crematoria. No gas ovens required. The person is programmed to self-destruct. That's his freedom.
Homosexuality was on LaRouche's mind in the month before the NCLC's convention. In a NS item dated Dec. 10, there is a brief article entitled "Homosexual Rapists in Blue" which said the paper would explore in future articles "the widespread homosexual attachments and sadistic practices among the cops." NS also commented that "would-be he-men who protest most loudly their loathing of homosexuals are hiding from themselves their impotence and fear of unmanliness." It also announced that "major articles by L. Marcus in this paper and in the Campaigner, the Labor Committees' theoretical journal, will explore the etiology of police impotence and homosexuality." It seems clear, then, that LaRouche was planning to write an entire Campaigner article on the subject for his "Beyond Psychoanalysis" series.
Homosexuality also makes a brief appearance in LaRouche's "How to Catch a Cop" also written on the eve of the December 1973 Convention:
Homosexual blackmail used to be most common to police agencies, especially the KGB. Even today, the individual who was blackmailed into police-agentry for his closet-life of yesterday continues to be blackmailed now because he has been had in the past.
LaRouche hated and feared homosexuality. In one sense he was, of course, reflecting strong divisions inside the puritanical Old Left over this issue. After all, the Soviet Union, China, and Cuba were extraordinarily anti-gay regimes and claimed that homosexuality was a sexual perversion that only existed under capitalism. It was commonplace in the Old Left from the 1930s forward to claim that the Nazis were really closeted homosexuals and that fascism was a form of homosexual perversion.
Yet LaRouche's hatred of homosexuality went far beyond the theoretical to the deeply visceral. From a June 1976 Craw daddy article on the NCLC:
The only exception to their puritanical denunciations of the counter-culture was Marcus's taste for scatology. "Even in those early days back in the Village, he had a very foul mouth," said one drop out. "He was always cracking jokes about how the homosexuals were upset about the Vaseline."
LaRouche's former common-law wife Carol also recalled:
Lyn was an abusive "husband" to me for sure. His specialty was giving me a black eye. [One] occasion I remember kind of vividly was when I innocently remarked that I could see how for men jailed for long periods of time, homosexuality could constitute a human relationship in an awful environment.
Wham!!!!!!
Clearly there was something that both fascinated and terrified LaRouche about homosexuality on a very deep level.
CONCLUSION: THE METHOD
LaRouche's first public discussion of the link between homosexuality and torture appeared in the 27 November 1970 issue of New Solidarity in "How Greek SS Makes Stoolpigeons," a review of The Method, a book by a Greek leftist named Perikles Koroveses, first published in London in 1970. In the book, Koroveses graphically describes his six months being tortured by the Greek police, who were trying to turn him into an informer using methods that focused on sexual humiliation. In his review, LaRouche writes:
The mechanics of "The Method" used by Agnew's Greek cronies represent a qualitative extension of pragmatic principles and characteristic moral defects of police interrogation squads around the world. The essence of these procedures is a sadistic variety of male homosexuality which "instinctually" focuses on efforts to destroy a male victim's sense of identity by emasculation threats, and with consistent appropriateness seeks to degrade to woman victim to the status of an animal-like common sexual object. . . . Back in the torture process, [Koroveses] was again returned to the status of a female sexual object accompanied by threats to and actual attacks on his sexual organs.
LaRouche adds:
The sadistic homosexuality of the Police Department is ironically revealed by police persecution of male homosexuals generally. The existence of the open homosexual is sexually provocative to the worst sort of man in blue and also threatens to reveal that aspect of the Police Department's barracks life whose truth the police are at some pains to conceal from themselves.
The wonder of the Chris White affair is that LaRouche employed the very psychological techniques he claimed to attack to consolidate his total control of the NCLC. This fact again raises the difficult question of how much the Chris White affair was rationally orchestrated by LaRouche and how much it reflected his own overwhelming sense of paranoia and obsession with personal domination. Yet it is also clear that even if LaRouche thought he was on a conscious and rational level manipulating the NCLC, the fact was that his fears and fantasies were overwhelmingly projected during the crisis.3 The irony was that instead of discrediting his claims, the passion with which LaRouche expressed his raw almost hysterical emotional states actually gave him a strange credibility that no conscious "rational actor" could ever hope to achieve.

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NOTES:
1. For more on this phrase, see chapter two of the section on the Chris White affair.
2. One might recall in this context that Norman O. Brown wrote famous books like Love's Body and Life Against Death where he used the term "filthy lucre" in a Marxist and Freudian concept of the drive for accumulation. Also see Eric Erikson's famous discussion in Young Man Luther.
3. Given the veneer of pseudo-reality that LaRouche's projections took on, the NCLC's December 1973 conference might even be understood as a partial modern re-enactment of a classic medieval "witch scare" craze.

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08-10-2008, 10:27 PM

'''Doran‘‘

Hi, I'm new here. I was never a LaRouche member, but I was best friends with one who eventually drifted out of the fold. He was on the west coast, and his name (I don't talk to him anymore) was Adam Stevens. He was in the L.A. office and through him I met Harley Schlanger once. He was friends with a higher-up speaker named Ted. Adam briefly had a relationship with a woman whose name I cannot recall, who was the ex-wife of either Khushro or Bey Gandhi, also in the organization. I have been reading the occasional LaRouche literature since about 1990; I find various thing interesting and salvageable, but the apparently intentionally obfuscatory, autodidactic rambling on an overly wide variety of subjects has always struck me as self-indulgent and illogical. The "the sky is falling" tone and the "[fill in blank] is Satan" talk always made me laugh, as well. I occasionally see LaRoucheans on campus; I agree with some of their ideas, but they seldom know what they are talking about very deeply, and resort to incomprehensible things about Gauss. I am a doctoral student at Berkeley in Ancient History, and I know ancient Greek and Latin and can read French, Italian, and German, so I don't think that it is me who is just stupid. Anyhow, I am wondering if any of you ex-members out there know about Khushro and Bey Gandhi and the "defection" of one of them, what the name of this ex-wife of one of them was, what happened to Harley Schlanger, what Ted's last name is, and also who this horrible woman who used to call my house from their office in, I believe, San Leandro. I'll remember her name eventually. Oh yes, perhaps it was Amy. About 48, blonde, watery eyes, annoying voice, was in charge with telephoning people on a list who were not members but thought of as "friendlies," a bit of a moron (fancy that), always urging me to go to meetings. I went to one -- they picked me up and dropped me off -- and it lasted about 12 hours, and there were so many bloody names and dates (this is when I was 21 and did not know history well -- I'm 38 now) that I could not keep track of them, and was forced to assume that they were trying to dazzle me.

08-10-2008, 11:51 PM

borisbad

Welcome Doran. I can't answer many of your questions, but believe both Bey and Khushro have been out for quite some time. I believe that the Ted you are referring to is Ted Andromidas, who with his brother, Dean, have been members for about thirty years. Otherwise, I was not too up on the West Coast membership, but Ted and Dean both came out of New York, Dean being in the old Asia sector and Ted was a local NC.

08-11-2008, 12:59 AM

realme

Ted A. has been a member for more than 30 years. Probably at least 35. I don't know about Dean, but I suppose about the same time frame for him. Ted was a security guru back in the old days, first in NYC where he had close ties with Gus, perhaps because Ted is of Greek ancestry, or maybe it had nothing to do with that. Then Ted was sent to San Francisco (with Don B., Doug M., and Pat D.) in 1974 (I think--or was it 1975?). Gus and many others left the LC, but Ted stayed. And stayed. And stayed.
Hasn't xlcer referred to Ted as an LYM den mother and cook? Or was that someone else? Anyway, if that's what's happened to Ted, I cry for him. He was a real pain in my butt, but I have a soft spot in my heart for him and Dorothy.

08-11-2008, 06:49 AM

'''Doran‘‘

Thank you for the welcome.
I met Harvey Schlanger once at a thing in Oakland which was supposed to be about the crack epidemic in Oakland but turned out to be about African politics. Seemed terribly nice, but he hated the Ian McKellan "Richard III" because he thought the scene of Richard urinating was in bad taste. That reaction was too prissy for me and alerted me to the Puritan nature of many of the official LaRouche aesthetic pronouncements. I heard that Ted, if we are talking about the same person, had a routine he would do while orating that involved taking off his glasses and wiping them with a cloth -- sounded horribly staged -- and that he would repeat the same silly speech about Hamlet, including quoting a few special lines, which you see in every single LaRouche article in Fidelio (I used to subscribe to it and largely liked it), New Federalist (godawful; I got it for a year, then realized it was aimed for the midwestern Christian populist types -- not me), certain of the "special reports," and various other of the house organs.
I'm quite curious about the ex-wife of one of the Gandhi brothers that I mentioned. I am almost certain her name was Christine. She was a real true believer, according to Adam Stevens, but so was he.
I think the first thing that really turned me off from these people in 1991 (the first time I went to one of their meetings) was the narrow way they looked at literature (and paintings) and their insistence that all written works have a single, specific political intent. This is about as far from what I believe as I can imagine -- plays and novels are usually just not like that and present multiple viewpoints through multiple characters.
Plus, the single, specific political intent of each literary work MUST (in their eyes) fall into one of two camps: either The Camp That Believes That Humans Are Little More Than Beasts or else The Camp That Believes In The Inherent Dignity Of The Human. I have read a lot, a lot, of Aristotle and Plato in the original Greek and LaRouche's silly generalization of Aristotle as being in the former camp and Plato being in the latter displays both immense ignorance of the original authors plus ignorance of the modern scholarship on them.
The obeisance displayed by the movement's followers toward the Official Party Line on each artistic work was simply sickening. Adam Stevens (my friend who was involved in the L.A. chapter) got very animated and even rude in a conversation I had about Dostoevsky, insisting that Dostoevsky was a "piece of ****" anti-Semite (my god, that word is overused), a "blood and soil" Romantic nationalist who adhered to the "bestial" nature of man. This may be partially true, but we do not look to literature for simplistic answers but for an authentic-seeming experience and for questions and partial answers. It is silly to have a party line toward each author and it is simply degrading to subsume your own sovereign opinion on an artistic work to the allegedly superior and correct belief of a supposed genius -- and this would be true even if the genius in question were NOT manifestly senile as LaRouche is.
Are there any West Coast ex-LaRouchers on this thread?

08-11-2008, 04:17 PM

'''Doran‘‘

Quote:
Originally Posted by boomer70
I am wondering why there is not more discussion in this forum of the positive influence the org' has had on us, and of the positive qualities within ourselves which drew us to the org'. I believe that only with the development of this positive content can we be completely free of the org's destructive influence.

I have not noticed sufficient discussion of this, or maybe I missed a page. There has been a huge positive influence upon me. Again, I never JOINED the bloody thing and always had a job and certainly never left the university. So I was not exposed to the Stalinist removal of people, to the drunkenness (except through the crappy, meandering writings of LL), to the deprivation of resources, starvation, crappy housing, etc.
Here are some of the positive things I learned:
1.) History is interesting and all-connected. Not as connected as LaRouche thinks (or pretends to think). I did not really appreciate history's wonderfully interconnected nature in school. Nor its inherent interest. I ended up majoring in history in college and now I am in grad school in ancient history, at one of the best grad schools in the country, and I got in because I was passionate about history as an undergrad, and part of that passion and knowledge came from reading the (admittedly unhinged, but interesting) Chaitkin and long crazy LaRouche essays.
2.) I learned to be critical of the embrace of what LaRouche calls the "sex-drugs-rockandroll counterculture." And I otherwise would not have been; I would have accepted it wholeheartedly. I was a punk rocker in the 1980s. My father hated that music: he is a classical composer. I think LaRouche is a total goofball if he thinks that a modulated amount of popular music is dangerous, but I agree with him that knowing classical music is very important.
3.) Speaking of which, I got into lieder through LaRouche. I never would have bothered listening to a Schubert lied without that influence. I now love the lieder very much. They are a great passion of mine. On the last day of German 1, my teacher had us all sing a lied together and it was a truly beautiful experience.
4.) I also might never have studied FDR and appreciated infrastructure development without LaRouche's explanation of its importance. Maybe that makes me sound dumb, but that's the case and there you go. And I have carried that interest through and looked at other political figures in world history (such as Pericles, Philip of Macedon, Augustus Caesar, and more) and what was the meaning of their insistence on infrastructure development.
5.) For me, the exciting thing was that there was/seemed to be a youth movement that was enthusiastic about Culture instead of a bunch of dumb nihilistic bull****. Culture in the Matthew Arnoldian sense of the best that has been thought, not in the anthropological 20th century sense of "everything is culture." I appreciate the Arnoldian version of culture with a capital C, and not an anthropological (or worse Bourdieuean) idea of culture. I appreciate that an imperative developed within me, a need to understand the finest cultural productions humans had wrought, and when I went to Europe the first time, at 25 in 1995, I was correspondingly impressed with such things as the Cathedral at Chartres.
6.) I came to understand that civilization is beautiful and fragile (not as fragile as LaRouche thinks, obviously -- by his count we would be in the stone age again, 25 times over since I first started reading his literature in 1991 or so). I luckily never really believed that the world would end unless I joined the group. The times a LaRouchie would tell me "you're concerned with finishing school when all of this is about to collapse!??" I would smile and nod and keep walking.
Many of these things, I recognize, are things I could have picked up elsewhere. But I didn't. No one else was proclaiming them. I saw no enthusiasm for them elsewhere (except amongst dorky people -- the LaRoucheans seemed all about fighting for civilization, and that martial spirit was Cool). ALL of these principles or goals could have existed without a senile paranoid fruitcake running an organization of oppressed, starving, penniless errand boys while he goes on about the end of civilization. For me, though, these were the positive things.
So if there are any LaRouche Youth Movement people reading this (I seriously doubt it, xlcr4, sorry), keep in mind that you can have these very positive things without the crazy totalitarian leadership, the murky murders/deaths, the giving of your life for a demonstrably insane leader, the refusal to have a good job, finish an education, get married, have a family, and do the normal things that humans normally find great satisfaction and happiness in.

08-11-2008, 07:11 PM

xlcr4life

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doran
I have not noticed sufficient discussion of this, or maybe I missed a page. There has been a huge positive influence upon me. Again, I never JOINED the bloody thing and always had a job and certainly never left the university. So I was not exposed to the Stalinist removal of people, to the drunkenness (except through the crappy, meandering writings of LL), to the deprivation of resources, starvation, crappy housing, etc.

Welcome to this site Doran. I am very happy that you made certain decisions and are busy persuing advanced level work. Before I continue, sometimes people are hesitant to reveal names of former members who left and are persuing life in a post LC/LYM world. On this site you have the ability to PM someone to make contact over any personal questions to avoid any potential embarrasment for that person. That and email has come in handy many times to preserve some privacy for people who are concerned that people will know who they are by posting here. When you read posts I place here, always keep in mind that behind the post are many, many people whose privacy I try my best to safeguard as well as show what is known.
Always remember that no one has the entire picture of this by virtue of how it was set up as well as the numerous cover stories issued to members. The most common words I hear over the years is "Wow, I had no idea we did that or said that or printed that or spent that or lost that".
What you are writing explains a lot of why certain people will be attracted to us. Lyn has always stated what he will be doing to you by replacing "recruit" or "member" with a descritpion of what happened to other people. If you have been in the LC for years you will see that quite clearly after leaving.
Now view this from the inside out when you meet a member who needs to raise money, feed a boiler room more names and replenish the membership to replace the old membership which is leaving.
You are in the "in door where you are hearing what is attractive about the arts, science , infrastructure and everything else. The members who are in the "out door" lived the endless slavery of toiling and fundraising, endless apacolyptic hysteria, extreme poverty and lumpenization along with being in an insular Bizarro world. In reading a few books by Steve Hassan about cults, it hit me real hard that cults need and can attract pretty smart people from all walks of life. What you describe as being the positive is the bait we have to use to get you to come to a meeting . You happened to be sharp enough to pick up on the things which made no sense and did the most simplest of actions which is to question.
You are not going to be coming into our events if I told you that we will be vaporizing your credit cards, having you work 16 hour days, 7 days a week at times, cutting you off from your family, friends and interests , paying you nothing with no health care and then kicking you to an outbound icefloe 35 years later whe you are burnt out. Perhaps the hardest thing for a former member to read is about how cults and mind control work and how the LC/LYM follows a basic business model on par with those other cults like the Moonies and Krishna which you did not think smart people joined either.
There really is nothing you wrote about in what you learned and kept with you that I and many other people could have written as well. I do not mean anything negative about that. What I mean is that I have things which I took with me as well and enjoyed being exposed to that. At the same time I can tell you about how so much I was not able to persue and enjoy because this was a cult where the needs and whims of Larouche far outway what you enjoy and took so much precious time in doing so. Indeed many a prisoner has discevered God and some skills while being in prison. Should he or she have waited to be in prison to learn something? I believe not. But that is what a cult of personality needs to run for a few decades a self made prison with some inmates. A lot of factors will effect people when they are very young such as schooling and peers and family. The big secret as far as I can see is just how many people I know who joined the LC had difficult home lives with their fathers who were both there and not there. In my purely anecdotal review, those who had close relations with their family and friends left sooner. Those who had outside jobs with interaction with others kept it that way and placed themselves in their own circle to stay sane and left earlier when they learned more than they were supposed to about Lyn and the LC.
The worst thing to us was to have someone like you who would come to meetings for years and years and never join while persuing work or a degree. It was different if you had a contact who was married with a family as that was an obvious reason but I can assure you that it was not healthy to have you mingle with members in your age bracket who see you having a good time, reading , seeing and listening to what we told people to do, but could not do ourselves.
In other words, our job was to convince you that there are very high levels of culture and science and politics, but everyone who was involved with that was corrupt, eeevil or had fundamental flaws which somehow, only larouche was able to resolve.
You give us a group, book, author, politician, charity, cause and we will have a way to connect it to some evil enemy of humanity in 6 steps or less. Only through Larouche would all of these problems be solved for ever and humanity will finally start that Renaissance we all want
Was this the way I and others thought when we called you to attend a meeting? Absolutely not as far as this being an outright scam. We actually believed our own hype and many of us did what we did based on our supposed higher principals. Most members of a cult of personality will act this way which is why we had to make sure that you did not look to or find anyone else , group, reading circle, acting guild, poetry club, music group to take you away.
I knew about infrastructure years before I met the LC. I was part of a tour of the TVA system in the South and ate up all I could about that and nuclear power. Becasue of my zeal for something like that, I did not wish to see that NOT get built. Instead, I wished to hook up with what I at the time thought was the only group which wanted to do everything I wanted PRONTO. Maybe I could have become a great civil engineer if I stayed in college instad of leaving to join the LC. The word we used back then was "Hubris". We were told that everything we imagined was a problem like hunger, energy shortages, wars, pollution, great music was all so easy to get except that the mythical enemies Lyn had waiting for us were the roadblock If only an older, wiser, taller, smarter figure like Lyn was in the White House or in power , all of this would be changed with a snap of the fingers. This sure is sounding like the mythical Father figure many cults of personality are started by and end up runnning in history to me.
In the real world , if only we had the powers, all could be changed and a revolution of learning and growth would take place. Who wants to live in the real world I and everyone else lives in where you have to listen to other views, obey laws, conduct feasability studies, figure out financing and do it on a budget and a deadline?
The silly LC and Lyn never had a budget, were always overspending, broke numerous laws, squashed all questions and dissent , acted on Lyn's whim with never a pragmatic question and after 250 million dollars and a few thousand of very talented people burnt up, ends up as a bad joke on web blogs with a few hundred college drop outs .
In the real world, it took our town about 2 years of negotiations and planning to get a few traffic lights and traffic cricles installed . I am glad it took a few years because we did on a budget and timeline to work with current projects and created asthetically very pleasing designs and structures within an allotted budget with no tax increases.
Yes , you have learned enough to get you started, however, I firmly believe that if you joined, you would have never gotten to where you are today and in fact would have had your thought processes so Laroucheified that it would be laughable.
Take the case of Dean Andromidas who you mentioned. In previous posts, little more than a year ago I posted something from Dean about Al Gore.
http://www.larouchepub.com/eiw/public/2007/2007_10-19/2007_10-19/2007-13/pdf/49-50_713_hitler.pdf
Here are the posts from that time frame. I do not know if you have gone back this far in reading the threads.
http://www.factnet.org/vbforum/archive/index.php/t-10257.html
This is a great segment to read as it shows how there is a very delibitating effect on a person's thinking the longer they stay in the cult. To stay in the cult for so many years requires one to suspend critical thinking which often permeates anything written by members as your whole world is built on tall tales by a tall man
When you leave the LC you can read articles I wonder if others have noticed what I noticed. You can read any article appearing which is written by members and notice based on how much Lyn lunacy is included to see the merits of it. In other words, the less laroucheisms are there, the better one thinks of the work. Since this permeates so much research and work, you then find that even if there are some great lines and work done, it is all spoiled by the lunacy infecting it. Just a thought.






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xlcr4life06-06-2007, 03:57 AM
Steve, I get douche chills reading this from you. it is all of the same show done for another audience. In the 1970s Lyn put on his wizard hat and said the same thing in conferences with the same need for yutes to not look at the man behind the curtain.
Back then he and the NCs would go on for hours about the split second between "Knowing" and "Not Knowing". "We in the LC through Lyn are mastering the "In betweenness" to take world power.
When you are 18 without any standards to measure frauds, cults or scams, it is easier than getting a degree or a job.
Steve, I will next prove to you and others that reading Better Homes and gardens will make you a better and more informed individual than becoming a 12 step Laroucheaholic
xlcr4life@hotmail.com
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xlcr4life06-06-2007, 04:01 AM
Jeff is back on top today and Gore is the headline again. The chants of racism against Gore take a new turn as we now use connecto to make Gore the clone of Hitker and the British
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++******* **
GORE IS A BIG, FAT SOUTHERN RACIST
Let us be very blunt. The most elementary fact--the thin g
that is going to poison Al Gore with all sane Democrats--is that
Al Gore is a big, fat Southern racist. And he has a long track
record to prove it. He is not a racist in the same sense as his
daddy, who tried every-which-way to sabotage the civil rights
movement, especially around voting rights, during the 1950s and
1960s. He is more in the Hitler/Schacht tradition, the brown and
green mold. His policies kill. They kill Africans, in
particular, on a grand scale..........
This is the significance of Al Gore's absolute ideological
commitment to the "environmentalism" of Prince Philip and Prince
Bernhard of the World Wildlife Fund. ...................
In the
meantime, Huxley, Prince Philip, Prince Bernhard, Sir Peter
Scott, and Sir Max Nicholson--the oligarchs who founded the WWF
and its antecedent, the International Union for the Conservation
of Nature--contented themselves to use the more sanitized terms,
"conservation," "ecology," and "environmentalism," instead of
race science: eugenics.
But the content was the same: mass murder of the
darker-skinned races.........................

As Vice President, Al Gore further demonstrated his
genocidal racism, going totally berserk against South African
President Mbeki, when he threatened to produce generic AIDS drugs
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++** **
Something is not right here. With LC material you can poretty much count on using a sampliong technique to see if we are on the level here. The issue as always is that a legitmate problem which people solve becomes an elaborate conspiracy of connecto and the FSG in Lyn's head. This can only lead to LC researchers and security working from the top down to prove that Lyn is right and eveyone else has it wrong.
You can look at the issue of Gore and South Africa when it happened and I remember what was discussed was US patent laws and protection of intellectual property. Gore was between the White House, South Africa and the Drug companies negotiating that. I get a different situation than what the briefing is saying to fill up the heads of yutes who are inhaling exhaust fumes .
http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/africa/9902/18/us.sa.talks/
http://www.aegis.com/news/re/1999/RE990614.html
http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/africa/9808/07/congo.01/index.html
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xlcr4life06-06-2007, 04:04 AM
You can critique Gore on anything and since he was the VP, he and Clinton's policies are there to be debated and judged. But that is not what is being attempted here as in a cult, things are done for the cult's benefit, not the real world.
Next the yutes are being told that Gore and Lyn are equals but Lyn has the superior mind!
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++****
It is all a totally coherent bill of indictment against this
cracker. He is a died-in-the-wool Malthusian, who stands
shoulder-to-shoulder with Prince Philip and Prince Bernhard, in
promoting radical population reduction. In his 1992 book {Earth
in the Balance}, Gore used the same population charts that Lyndon
LaRouche used in his "History as Science" {Fidelio} study. But
Gore drew the opposite conclusion. He labelled the 17th-century
upward spiral of the population curve as a disaster point, and
wrote that the world has to return to the pre-nation state era of
oligarchical feudalism.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++******* **

Now we are back to Gore and the British.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++** ******

The biggest mistake that Al Gore's London handlers made, was
to send him out into the public, to make his End-Times Armageddon
pitch. They actually thought that they had successfully
re-engineered this sociopath, to turn him into a "popular" hero.
Nothing could be further from the truth--and it is our job to
make that point perfectly clear.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++** ****
Whats next is one of the most bizarre exercizes I have seen in a larouchian mind meld . The breifing now states that since Al Gore had native plants restored to the VP residence he is a real Nazi !!!!!!
You have to read this insanity to understand why the yutes you run into are clueless and the deadenders you see slogging to liquor stores like the living dead in Leesburg are so larouchefied .
http://larouchepub.com/eiw/public/20...713_hitler.pdf
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xlcr4life06-06-2007, 04:07 AM
Read this lunacy and see how Steve is ready to send another check for 5K to Lyn for this.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++*******

IS THAT HITLER IN YOUR GARDEN? NO THAT'S AL GORE.
When Al Gore was Vice President, living at the mansion in
the park of U.S. Naval Observatory, he embarked on a project to
restore the grounds, especially the gardens and forest.
An article describing this project at the time Gore was
running for President, stated,
"Gore restored the rich diversity and lush beauty of his own
backyard by yanking out FOREIGN EXOTICA IN FAVOR OF NATIVE
PLANTS."(emphasis added; www. homegardens.move.com ). Treating
plants as if they were unwanted foreigners from the "mixed races
of the south" or other unwanted immigrants under orders from
Gore, the gardeners "dug out all exotic plants," including such
"invasive" immigrants as English ivy and garlic mustard from
Europe and Kudzu from Japan.
Gore's interest in gardens comes from the same fascist roots
as his lying CO2 campaign that could make Joseph Goebbels blush
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++*
I do not know where to start. in many US communities, local residents have worked with profesional botonists and scientists to reverse some of the problems created by introducing non native vegetation. In Arizona and Nevada the locals had problems when developers imported California plants in projects being sold to relocating Californians. The introduction of high water use plants was not too smart while the plants came with insects which now needed to be sprayed. In Florida the state is eliminating hibiscus trees which were planted because they grow fast. They have very shallow roots and became a public hazard when they all blow down during high winds and knock out power and block streets.
If you ever go to North Carolina, there is a real problem with Kudzo vines which strangle the local trees and grow too fast. The only good news about Kudzi is that the State is working on using Kudzo as a bio fuel with good progress.
But this does not mean a thing to the cult who shoudl ask Lyn about what happened when he started his plan to cross breed cattle on Ibykus to create a master breed.
Now you can see why I once joked that a yute is better of reading Better Homes and Gardens than Larouche cult insanity.
Read what a crazed Dean Andromidas writes about Gore being a Nazi and what Tipper Gore writes about what happened. Dean is not qualified to wash dishes in Gore's house, though he may be qualified to scrub pots and pans at the LYM clubhouse.
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xlcr4life06-06-2007, 04:10 AM
Reread the Larouche Gospels about Al Gore and plants and ask yourself if any comedy writer in Hollywood could have written something like that.

Here is Tipper Gore about the VP residence
http://clinton4.nara.gov/WH/EOP/VP_Wife/home.html
Vice President Gore's long-standing interest in environmental preservation prompted a unique landscaping project for the property surrounding the house. With the help of the Foundation, a tract of land was targeted for "reforestation," an effort that restores native and indigenous species which are environmentally self-sustaining to the forest patches that border the house and public areas. To bring the grounds back to what they must have looked like around the turn of the century when the house was built, tulip poplars, red maples, hickory, persimmon, walnut, dogwood, redbud and American holly, along with a great variety of small shrubs and tiny native wildflowers were introduced to areas once diffuse with non-native species, such as English Ivy, which can choke out less hardy plants.
Elsewhere around the house, perennial, vegetable, cut flower beds and a summer garden are maintained. Plans are under discussion now to plant the same kind of fruit trees around the grounds that original owner Margaret Barber would have been familiar with when she owned the property. The project has garnered great interest from visiting dignitaries, including Japanese Prime Minister Hashimoto and His Holiness, The Greek Patriarch.

Folks, I would wager any Lyn authored delusion against a version of Better Homes and Gardens for intellectual honesty.

http://homegarden.realtor.com/HomeGarden/Gardening/Features/Gardens/VPGardens.asp?poe=homestore
xlcr4life@hotmail.com
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eaglebeak06-06-2007, 04:56 AM
To Steve, or Odd One 2003:
You wrote, "What Lyn says in Beyond Psych boils down to the fact that your state of mind whan the 'light bulb' of creativity is on in your head is radically different than the state of mind you normally walk around in day to day."
No, what Lyn says in Beyond Psych is that by reducing your identity to the Id, to the Pit, and terrorizing you with a synthetic "Mother Image," he can make you his, following him slavishly.
What Lyn did with Beyond Psych is to run a bunch of unbelievably destructive "sessions" with the NEC in which he turned many if not most of them into cringing zombies who orient toward him as the All-Father. They were degraded, humiliated, exposed, ridiculed--and lo! When they woke up, they were robots.
Perhaps, Steve, since you were just a supporter, not a member--I think that's what you said--you don't know the history of Beyond Psych and the formation of the amoral, infantile, vicious body known as the NEC, but I was a longtime member, and I do know.
The Feuerbach Campaigner, part of the Beyond Psych series, has the anti-Semitic crap we have alluded to above, plus a wild formulation of the Virgin-Mary-Is-a-Whore. Creativity? Hardly.
We are dealing with Abnormal Psychology here, not non-linearity.
And I can tell you that LaRouche is one of the most linear and reductive thinkers I have ever known. Don't believe me? Read any interview he does with a semi-hostile reporter. Go back and watch his performances on TV in 1976 in the minor candidates' forums. Or read some of his court testimony, starting with his performance in the NBC case.
Linear? To work in your frame of reference for a moment, he's so linear he makes Aristotle look like Timothy Leary--although as a matter of fact, Aristotle is not a linear thinker, and one could think that only if he/she lacked the attention span actually to read Aristotle (three guesses who I am talking about).
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shadok06-06-2007, 07:14 AM
I agree.
Creativity? nonlinearity? Change? There is none of that! Not even pro-creativity! This is a sterile cult populated with soon-to-become zombies.
I used to joke about this "nonlinearity" tantrum when i was in the cult:
"yeah, i said: the most important thing is nonlinearity, the most important thing is nonlinearity, the most important thing is nonlinearity,...!" Get it?
The only "nonlinearity/creative/highest hypothesis" process that is tolerated is: RAISING MONEY, you dummies! The rest is mental masturbation.
What a real "sovereign/creative mind" would do is to LEAVE the cult. That s creative and nonlinear! To break free from it both mentally and physically.
And by the way, all that glitters isn't gold, and that applies to would-be "golden souls" too...
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howie06-06-2007, 09:17 AM
If it's the same Steve with whom I exchanged a few comments with, he rejects the "Golden Soul" line because it so opposite of the Larouche he knows.
There's nothing wrong with the supposed insight he had into the creative process, except its supposed correlation with Lyndon Larouche. What bugs me a bit more, and gives me the reaction of "ugh" -- is the outs he provides against anyone who leaves Larouche's mental grip.
Steve: Read this. It's been posted here before, but repetitive is the nature of this board. I have one question: Do You Feel Like God???
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howie06-06-2007, 09:18 AM
Dear Jeff,
Much has changed since your visit and I hesitate to unfold it within the limited scope of a letter but it must be attempted if we hope to continue to communicate. There are innumerable reasons to recoil in dismay from reality. However, Bill and I have ruthlessly confronted those reasons and found them less than human, if not totally insane. Throughout our lives, Jeff, we have been surrounded with fantasy — TV, mother's homeside magic, Vietnam and its deluded antiwar "revolutionaries", the myth of success, etc. — and we have responded with neurotic insanity, feverishly constructing more fantasy, performing propitiatory rituals to dead pasts. Now the fantasies are melting away.
This letter is VERITABLY IMPOSSIBLE for me to write, so big is the gulf between yourself (who can write impassively of Rockefeller and William F Buckley) and myself (who is pouring my intellect, creativity, time, energy, probably my life's blood into the battle for humanity against the bestialized filth of those men and their following). Have you read about TRIAGE as suggested by Rocky's Trilateral Commission? If so, how can you possibly tolerate it and call yourself human? Einstein, Feuerbach, Marx, Luxemburg, Hegel, Oparin, Vernadsky — in essence break out of the controlled environment spawned by "higher education" and begin your education anew. Bill and I have embarked on the excruciating task of finding the real world and we are tempted to backslide daily, but the realization of the discovery of self-concious mentation of the type experienced by Descartes, "I think therefore I am", and the responsibility it carries of negentropic growth constantly compels us to tear out the demons of our education. Ie, we are confronting the "giggling, nervous infants of bourgeois fear" which grip and strangle the minds of most of our acquaintances, our families, our friends — and we are becoming members of a new species, equipped to make the conceptual leap which is absolutely necessary if the human race is to survive an impending ecological holocaust.
Political, economic, psychological, personal, moral, scientific, artistic levels — all the pursuits of mankind — must be conceptually raised to the next level of human progress. We are in the process of an intellectual renaissance, Jeff, and it is very real. I would be less than equal in the demands of a truly creative friendship if I didn't joyfully bring it within the grasp of your mind. I've enclosed several clippings which I hope you will read. They're from N S — you know, the paper you used to laugh at? We are planning to leave Madison and will be organizing full-time with the Labor Committees in Milwaukee and Chicago. I quit my job in November and have since been making intellectual leaps necessary to maintain the integrity of my decision to be a world historical being rather than Ruth Tuttle of Yazoo City. I am beginning to locate myself by my mental coordinates rather than geographically. Within me exists not only the experiences of 23 years, but also an intensifying sensuous grasp of the geometry of the universe and the laws and forms I am capable of imposing on it. Of all my friends, you are the one I know best intellectually. We have shared our minds much more than our experiences and for this reason, I am convinced that you have the intellectual integrity to grapple with your bourgeois persona and fear and to discover your humanity, your pride. This will be very straining to our relationship because it calls for an honesty not accepted in polite society and is certainly far removed from the magnanimous apathy of the counterculture many of our peers have opted for.
So, there you have an infinitesimal glance into the burgeoning currents of my life. Jeff, I feel like every human being can potentially feel. I feel like God.
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eaglebeak06-06-2007, 09:53 AM
Yikes. That's it precisely--"I feel like God."
Delusional, prideful (let's not forget LaRouche's favorite word used to be hubristic), contemptuous of mere ordinary human beings, contemptuous of God (because after all, what's God have that I don't have?)--that's pretty much "The LaRouche Experience."
And then, of course, when you discover the organization is only big enough for One God--and you ain't it, pal--then, suddenly, you feel more like the Goat and less like God.
And at the other end of the room, at the podium, is the goat-God himself, as it were, a figure with a smug, self-satisfied, gloating grin-- with a real demonic tinge. (Three guesses who I'm talking about?)
Is everyone contributing to keep this site going?
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borisbad06-06-2007, 10:23 AM
I have to be honest after reading Steve's posts it is possible he has totally missed anything that has gone on inside the organization since the suicide of Ken K. The self-destructiveness that is imposed by Lyn's regimentation stares at one in the face but he blythely dismisses it as contributing to the greater good. Maybe he is one of those younger members who are being served dinners by the boomers whereever he is, and is being told he is the next generation of leadership of the organization.
It's interesting, if you read the ravings of any lunatic in religion, politics, etc. they all have a messianic complex, and they all deem themselves misunderstood geniuses that common people and ordinary scientists, mathematicians, etc. don't understand. But as Thomas Edison say genius is 1% inspiration, 99% perspiration. Or as someone like Louis Pasteur may have indicated, one performs hundreds and thousands of experiments to prove or disprove a hypothesis and then and only then you may come up with a true discovery. Lyn thinks that genius flows out of his mind like Athena emerging from the brow of Zeus, without the necessity of studying those who come before you, working and learning from their mistakes and then making your contribution. That, I guess, is too linear.
I wonder if someone like Steve could actually go to a college level calculus class, learn calculus as it's taught in college, and then argue the views that he thinks Gauss and Leibniz espouse to debunk the professor.
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shadok06-06-2007, 11:26 AM
Some good advice to the LYM-ers who suggested that "school books should be burned" (sic):
Question: Aren't Kepler or Leibniz your role models?
Well here is some info from their respective bios... (just google it)
KEPLER
In 1589, at the age of 18 and after moving through grammar school, Latin school, and lower and higher seminary in the Württemberg state-run Protestant education system, Kepler began attending the University of Tübingen as a theology student. There, he studied not only mathematics but also Greek and Hebrew (both necessary for reading the scriptures in their original languages). Teaching was in Latin. At the end of his first year Kepler got 'A's for everything except mathematics. Despite his desire to become a minister, near the end of his studies Kepler was recommended for a position as teacher of mathematics and astronomy at the Protestant school in Graz, Austria (later the University of Graz). He accepted the position in 1594, he was 23.
LEIBNIZ
In 1661, at the age of 14 Leibniz entered the University of Leipzig. He studied philosophy and mathematics. Among the other topics which were included in this two year general degree course were rhetoric, Latin, Greek and Hebrew. He was awarded his Master's Degree in philosophy. By 1663 Leibniz was starting his studies towards a doctorate in law. After being awarded a bachelor's degree in law, Leibniz worked on his habilitation in philosophy. Leibniz was refused the doctorate in law at Leipzig and went immediately to the University of Altdorf where he received a doctorate in law in February 1667 at which point he started his career. He was 21. The prestigious Royal Society of London elected Leibniz a fellow on 19 April 1673.
IN OTHER WORDS: THEY DIDN'T DROP OUT OF SCHOOL, even if their ideas were quite revolutionary (against the "Establishment") but, unlike larouche who failed to get his diploma in economics, they worked hard to get their way and ideas go through, not by rejecting the system but by embracing it! Their fame is justified by real accomplishments not mere words.
The LPAC/LYM is NOT a "university", the only thing you ll ever learn is how to raise more money for the cult.
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eaglebeak06-06-2007, 11:37 AM
The difficulty someone like Steve might have in any class, calculus or otherwise, in college or elsewhere, is that it is necessary to listen to the teacher and listen to others in order to participate in the class.
But if you already Know Everything, why would you want to do that, and how would you be able to do that?
Like every demagogue, LaRouche solves things so simply, so clearly, that the need for thought, dialogue, disagreement, etc., is abolished. You can just leap into the froth, like the letter-writer whose letter Howie posted.
I think these folks are too wrapped up in feeling like God to be able to pay the slightest attention to anyone else's views on anything.
LaRouche doesn't have the patience to perform anything resembling an experiment. He would be lost in the lab. He was lost in his first year at college. He flunked out of Northeastern in his freshman year not once, but twice.
He couldn't do Euclid at 14.
Hard work holds no charms for LaRouche, and so he lives off others, doesn't read books but "gets briefed" by others, etc. etc.
Steve et al. need to realize that we actually KNOW this guy. Some of us were members way back when he was actually circulating among the membership, eating dinner with people, etc. We know him as they never will, and we have seen him start off nuts and only get worse. Honest, folks.
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xlcr4life06-06-2007, 04:20 PM
I can make this real easy for Steve and others to see if they are a Laroucheaholic who needs help.
Steve, read the Dean Andromidas article.
http://larouchepub.com/eiw/public/2007/2007_10-19/2007_10-19/2007-13/pdf/49-50_713_hitler.pdf
and then read two articles about the reforestation project.

http://homegarden.realtor.com/HomeGa...?poe=homestore

http://homegarden.realtor.com/HomeGarden/Gardening/Features/Gardens/VPGardens.asp?poe=homestore
Tell us and the world that the 55 + year old Andromidas , who has been with Lyn for more than three decades of his life wrote a rationale article which explains why the Naval Observatory grounds were returned to their native vegetation.
That is all I ask. No where on the planet does anyone even remotely use that project to connect Gore to jack booted Nazi's. There are plenty of things one can find about Al Gore to disagree with over issues. I watched short clips on that project on numerous cable TV shows on gardening iver the years.
Only a Laroucheaholic could find a way to make a forest restoration project into a Nazi conspiracy of genocide by Al Gore.
This is what you got yourself into Steve. Two years ago we gave you many reasons to stay away from this cult. According to people who know you, the cult has extracted a good chunk of change from you and your parent's money and maybe yours in producing a Dean Andromidas production which is YOUR life's time to defend, not ours.
I read this Andromidas material for a good laugh and I hope Howie and others have a good laugh until we all figure out that this is really what the cult thinks. So if anyone from a college paper wants to interview the cult, just find things on factnet here to ask them about. Keep the recorder running for an hour. Do your articles and then replay the tape back at an end of year keg party to get a good laugh going.
Better yet, reprint the Andromidas article and videotape asking some yutes about it at a card table shrine. Put it on YouTube and we will post the URL here so everyone can have a good time.
Steve, do you think that you can escape from a card table shrine so easy? Read the briefings about how the LYM now have "PowerSquads" to raise money for Lyn.
Lyn knows that Steve is in a cult. Steve does not. The slogan of the day is:
"If only Steve knew"
xlcr4life@hotmail.com
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++** +++++++*

This lunacy infects everyhting which is why I point out this LPAC release about solar power.
http://www.larouchepac.com/news/2008/07/21/gores-solar-proposal-kills-some-elementary-facts-about-solar.html
When one stays in the LC/LYM one will find that you are falling behind every year in your insular Bizarro World. Just read the first , second and last paragraph and see how crazy it all reads.
"July 21 2008 (LPAC)--Despite the genocidal Al Gore's widely advertised claims to the contrary, there are no improvements in solar conversion energy technology significant enough to make his solar power proposal into anything but a greenie wet dream--and, for basic scientific reasons, there never will be. If implemented, the great achievement of solar power would be the needless death of hundreds of millions, perhaps billions, around the globe.
The basic problem with using solar power as a source of electrical power is the low density of energy flux from the Sun. Measured in watts received per square meter of land area at the Earth's surface, the yearly averaged solar flux varies across the United States from about 160 in New England to 240 in Albuquerque, NM, for a nationwide average of 200 watts per square meter. If all that solar energy could be converted directly into electricity, you could light two 100-watt bulbs for every square meter (about 11 sq. feet) of land area--during the day, that is. .................................................. .............................
What is really under attack in the proposal by Gore, the front man for the Anglo-Dutch oligarchy's wish to return to a new Dark Age, is science itself. Having largely destroyed the nuclear capability of the United States, the intent is to channel what remains of the next generation's scientific impulse into the pursuit of better solar cells, climate frauds, and cataloging extinct species of which the fastest accelerating is mankind.

Since I was in the LC a few decades ago, I recognised the cheap parlor trick of Lyn in this release about "energy flux density". This is nothing new for the LYM adn LYMettes as it is the same cheap parlor trick done with many of us when the "Fusion Campaigner" came out in the late 1970s. Lyn defined the relative value of an energy source based on how much power was delivered per sq meter. Fine. This was the arguement about why we needed a crash program for Fusion power since it claimed to provide the most energy in KW per sq meter compared to other energy sources. But that was never the issue for us to discuss. Oh no. Just like today for the LYm, the issue was a New Dark Ages, the death of a few billion people if the world did not adopt Lyn as the saviour. Like suckers, many people collected signatures on petitions for Fusion bills and ended up working card table shrines for Fusion power at airports and in boiler rooms raising money.
The real metric was lyn's "CFD" or "Cash Flux Density". In other words, an issue like fusion power and being anti environmental made more money per organiser per card table shrine then being in plant gates passing ourselves off as Communist saviours. Close behind the Fusion Energy Foundation (FEF) Cash Flux Density was being anti drug via the NADC front groups. In between this we had Lyn's campaign committee funraising to the present model which is to make everyhtng LPAC to create the highest Cash Flux Density in LaroucheTown.
Did at any time was the question of energy flux density raised by members? Hell no. You just went along with it and never asked : Why do you need such a high ratio of power to area when you are using step up transformers to send power, step down transformers to use in it homes and on the local grids and then using more transformers and capacitors in the devices you are using?
The LYN clubhouse/soup kitchen offices in both LA and Oakland are being run by solar power from a Mohave desert installation feeding their grid at peak AC use in the day time!
Millions of acres in California, Texas and Arizona are being leased by electrical companies for solar projects using both direct conversion and reflecting mirror technology. In California the leased land has a theoretical production of over 60 Gigawatts of power annually where the State uses 33 Gigawatts annually.
While the LYM and LYMettes recite these LPAC releases as canons form larouche, Japan is selling every solar panel it can being made by Sharp. Kyocera, Sanyo and others. There is no one energy production solution as in Japan, there is no land of magnitude like the USA for their direct panels. Even th epanels today are being targetted for several rounds of price reductions with thinner Silicon layers and a 2012 target of being equall to conventional fossil fuels in cost per KWH.
Does a LYM or LYMette or deadender figured out that the total land use of a solar project in comparison to a coal or nuclear plant has to take in account the land use for mining, processing, shipping, pollution storage, water usage etc?
Of course not! Critical thinking is more short supply in the LC/LYM then cheap gas for the LaroucheMobiles.
The cult also claims that wind power is another sign of the Larouche Horsemen of the New Dark Ages. Care to wager if any of them know that their Weisbaden office gets power fed into their grid by wind power in Germany ? Or how much business the German company Siemens does in exports of wind farm technology? Care to guess how many BILLIONS GE's wind power business is doing today?
Any guess that instead of billions dying becasue of wind power that over 25 million modern homes are powered by wind generators?
Any guess on how much money is pouring into Texas for wind farms and why many farmers want to lease space along their crops to make more money?
I look at it this way. A current LYM or LYMette who dropped out of college in 2000 to join this lunacy is by now so far beaten into the cult that it will be hard for them to leave as the cheap parlor tricks come full bore. A class mate of theirs who stayed in school and earned a degree in engineering or math could be part of the over 500 new engineers GE is hiring in Albany in it's renewable energy division.
In these very quickly lost and irreplaceable years, you have lost hundreds of thousands in potential income, future job placement, family formation , marriage and retirement savings. Your health has been deteriorating and above all, you sound so damn goofy when you read what the cult produces.
The most common adjective used to describe the cult on college campuses is "creepy".
On the whole, I would rather have taken the path Daron has taken in his or her life than what I did. I and others have done pretty well, but we know many who have not. We also have the unanswered questions of what would have happened if we persued what interested us back then and persued a path to solve or learn instead of having prime years in an endless paddling in soemhting designed not to work from day one.
Dealing with what I was handed ,I was the same before I entered the LC and I was the same after I left in my yearning for knowledge. My core beliefs were not changed, but the way I attendend to them has been far more productive after I left the cult. The people I was friendly with inside the LC I am friendly with after we all left the LC.
Why and how do I find time to do this? When my kids are asleep and because I have kids and am a parent. Somehow I like the idea of well intentioned, but naive kids finding this site and not making a potential mistake which we have shown here will cost them something.
Yes you should read and explore what is exciting in so many fields, but look even deeper and see how you are being taken for a ride when you know more than a card table shriner.
Maybe we can do a YouTube video called "Are you smarter than a card table shriner?" and ask questions about native plant species and using renewable power.
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

08-11-2008, 09:09 PM

'''Doran‘‘

Thank you for the welcome. That was all very interesting. Perhaps someone else should popularize his few dozen good ideas. Someone who is not a complete fruitcake who bullies his organization, starves his workers, flipflops every few years, deludes himself on his power, and tries to squeeze money out of others.
Yes, I am glad I never got into the organization ... and I do hope that people will read this and avoid this insanity.
The gobbledygook element is bad enough alone ... Mesopotamian/Apollo cult/Roman conspiracies .... jeezuz. I study ancient history professionally .... there is not such conspiracy known. I would know about it.

08-12-2008, 01:46 AM

candor

LaRouche and the "Classics"

Many ex-LYMers talk about how the LYM introduced them to classical culture, which is all well and good; however, what happens is that in the cultural realm, though they have left LaRouche and changed their phone numbers, most still walk around like zombies antagonistic to Stravinsky and any American poet after E.A. Poe.
Reading the classics in the original languages, playing through Bach through Schubert on the piano is all well and good so long as one is at least open minded enough to try to see what Beckett and Webern were up to. Many of these maimed ex-members react unthinkingly and spitefully to a mere name such as "John Cage" on the basis of a half-digested diet of "classics" relished with LaRouchian venom.
Life and culture move on: while the classics serve as a standard of excellence, they should not be taken to prescribe the exact form and content of all future artistic activity. This was well undertstood by - Beethoven: Late Beethoven would never have been had the composer merely idolized LaRouche-style Haydn-Mozart sonata form.
LaRouche has introduced us to much of value, but because these subjects were presented in such a wholly uncreative and hateful context, they were handed to us warped and of little creative use. One has to cleanse one's palate before one can return afresh to Schiller et al. to appreciate them at their true measure.

08-12-2008, 01:50 AM

'''readers‘‘

doran, what's up? i knew adam, he was a good guy. i was a west coast member and got out, now i'm loving life with a family and good job. bey's ex was named christine, she's been out a long time, as has bey and his brother and his brother's wife.
more generally, it boggles the mind to see the cult continuing to attack obama, and now supporting russia as it attacks georgia! unbelievable! scumbags!

08-12-2008, 02:03 AM

'''readers‘‘

doran,
ted and harley, both committed cult enforcers, were also both quite charming and charismatic, each in his own way. harley comes across as the most "professional" and "corporate" of the leaders in the cult. he is a good public speaker, at least relative to the others. he dresses well (again, relative to the others). and he gives the impression of wanting to convince his listeners with facts as opposed to the more mysterious "lyn's method". in fact, members on the west coast generally thought that phil rubinstein was "better" at "science" and "lyn's method", while harley was more of a slick salesman. ted on the other hand always had a pretty good if brutal sense of humor. he was like the don rickles of the cult. but each of them abused members mercilessly and suckered lymers and lymettes and little old ladies to give up their connection to reality and join the cult or hand over their life savings.
thanks to xlcr and eaglebeak and the other posters here for shedding light on this mess. it has helped me sort out a lot of stuff, after the fact.

08-12-2008, 03:22 AM

xlcr4life

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doran
Thank you for the welcome. That was all very interesting. Perhaps someone else should popularize his few dozen good ideas. Someone who is not a complete fruitcake who bullies his organization, starves his workers, flipflops every few years, deludes himself on his power, and tries to squeeze money out of others..

Doran, I would suggest that there is no need for any one person, period. There are so many different avenues of life to explore and fix that the search or need for that figure is by itself a distraction. In my post LC life I have found that in the many problems at work and the tasks I have taken on in civic affairs require an influx ideas to be debated and ultimately advanced or rejected by the strength of the logic and practicality instead of the figure , like a mayor for example pushing his or her own agenda. At work I have to operate within the confines of a business which has a plan advanced by the owner, yet still requires checks and balances from different divisons and input from the actual users. What we end up with will not always look what we started with, but the final product and service is more important than the egos involved.
In a mafia/cult personality can you ignore everthing and persue the ludicrous since there is no opposition of debate or checks and balances . I bring this up because you jogged my memory of one of Larouche's major screeching at members over "individual issues" , like the tax code vs himself. Time and time again Lyn would issue statements about how no issue exists without him at the top of the reason why it is important. I can not overstate this because in individual local offices, it was verbotten for a local campaign to be about any issue which is of importance to that electorate. You see, this whole pile of junk is not designed to succeed. You could run for a school board seat, yet you would not know a damn thing about the funding of schools, the payscale, the physical plant, the liabilities, demographics and what you would expect the head of a school system to know. This became laughable at times when a simple question at a debate about the local millage rate would be answered by "Larouche's IDB proposal".
When I see a candidate who only has one hot button issue of vagueness and not a drop about anythng else, I run away pretty fast.
Candor brings up an important point as the immediate dismissal of so much which is available to enjoy, read, listen to or view because the wackyness takes over. It reminds me of a good freind who mentored me out of the LC who asked me questions such as have I ever heard the LC mention a bad poet who is German? This is also done for antoher reason in a cult.
If you have Black recruits from colleges where Jazz is considerd an art form as well as an intellectual marker, then you better attack that pretty hard if you want to further destroy any individual identity of that person. The whole idea of Beyond Psych is the beating out of every last vestige of your identity and past to be replaced by Lyn. This explains why so many members when away from the 10 foot safety circle of a card table shrine are often incapable of normal , everday interactions with people.
Now that you have this insular physical and Bizarro mental world, then the axioms have to ultimately match the final product at that particular time and space. This aint flip flopping but part of how the mastery of the individual by the cult works.
Take fusion power which is what I wanted to see developed when I joined in the 1970s. It did not matter what the tasks and hurdles in the real world to make commercial fusion power a long term and massive problem. The solution was electing Lyn in 1976.
Do you see LPAC asking LYM and LYMettes to research the latest fusion breakthroughs? I don't and maybe the reason is becasue of a few things, such as:
The biggest facility going with the bigggest team of scientists is the JET in where???????
England, the British!
http://www.jet.efda.org/
If you go back a few decades you will find reams of how we wrote and said that the British will stop Fusion from being developed because of Prince Philip and the Queen of England wanting to create a New Dark Ages. We yelled for decades of how the British were holding back science and rigged the Nobel prizes to advance London. My exit mentor was the only person to point out that most of the people we were attacking and using to prove how the British are running the globe happen to be Scottish!
The main scientist you see on the media reports of the JET is a young guy with 4 foot dreads!
With a computer, a cable modem and YouTube, I do not need a larouche to show me actual plasma instead of the many deadenders who need plasma to stay alive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3IKaGR9EVs
Anyone can use their computer to find tons of info about Fusion and if they have talents, go get an education and work on it. Lyn took a viable operation like the FEF and turned it into a cash cow which eventually was shut down. Only in the Bizarro world do you raise money for magazines which you hardly sent out and burn through hundreds of thousands of subscribers to get them to worship Lyn and call it a plan to support Fusion Technology.
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

08-12-2008, 08:33 AM

'''Doran‘‘

Readers, Candor, XLC, thanks for the replies. Readers, I am curious to get more but we can do that over private mails. Candor, I fully agree with your point about how art continues. For example, I like Penderecki's Metamorphoses a whole lot, and also of course Stravinsky and various other folks. When I would play them for my LYM friend, he'd shriek and say it was "inhuman." He had many arguments he'd make based on the idea that music should only sound a certain way. (He had never taken a class in music composition, needless to say.) I asked him what sort of music composers should compose now. He did not know. "Retreads of Bach?" I asked. "Maybe a Little Fugue in H minor?" He did not know. He called rock and roll "fascist." I thought that was dumb. Most rock and roll is not trying to be a hugely brilliant abstract composition (no "motivic thorough-composition," only a repeated refrain). it is an electrified version of popular songs from a long time ago. You can say it is Dionysian and Romantic, but that is not the same as fascist at all.
XLC, I see your point when you say that you submit that no single person needs to present all these fine ideas; but they are good ideas, and it would be a shame to see them sink into obscurity. That is all I meant.
I am curious to know more about "ego-stripping" and "beyond psychology." It sounds like emotional abuse presented as medicine. What sorts of things were said? I trust that no actual feces was used to accompany the scat talk I see LaRouche employed (and the "sitting on a bottle" and "sucking a penis" talk -- yikes).

08-12-2008, 04:20 PM

eaglebeak

A Real S---Storm

Lyn's obsession with the fecal extended to his deeply disturbed remarks about the female anatomy, as memorialized in Christine Berl's resignation letter back in 1974, and as immortalized somewhere in the Beyond Psych series or one of its precursors.
Namely, Lyn was hung up on the fact that the various apertures of the female anatomy were so close together, separated only by the relatively narrow perineum. He came up with all sorts of idiotic theories about the subconscious problems of the female, deriving from this fact or supposed fact. And of course, the women in the leadership--Nancy, et al.--didn't raise a peep. (Well, Christine quit, but most of them didn't say much. On the other hand, there were very few women in the leadership.)
Lyn's intense misogyny no doubt accounts for that interesting demographic fact.
As to Lyn's theory of the female anatomy and how it ruins women (biology is destiny, what?), I won't go into the details--someone who has Christine's letter to hand (didn't you post it once, XLCR?) could include the relevant portion again on Factnet.
But his theory gives you an idea of the intensity of Lyn's fixation on the fecal--I think Freud, or maybe Dr. Spock, has a name for that phase in the development of the small child--and also an idea of the intensity of Lyn's psychosexual disturbance, which finds its full flowering in his constant attacks on other men's potency, his fixations on castration and circumcision (which to him, in his abysmal ignorance, is a form of castration), his incessant ravings about homosexuality and homosexual rape, sodomy, etc., and his obsessions with excretion, sex and excretion, etc.
Yikes, as the saying goes.
More than anything else, what convinced me that Lyn was crazy, all those years ago, was his absolute, total lack of self-consciousness. He had no idea how he betrayed himself and his most profound problems with his obsessive rants--any more than he had any idea how he betrayed himself with his idiotic press releases on death by colonoscopy.
No one with a modicum of self-awareness could possibly publish this stuff. He/she might think it, but he/she would be too self-controlled to actually SAY it.
Not Lyn. He has zero self-control, zero capacity to see himself as others see him (pace Robert Burns), zero awareness of the beam in his own eye. (This is why he can blithely attack the victim, be it Jeremiah Duggan or Erica Duggan, Ken Kronberg or Molly Kronberg, Ed Spannaus, Carol White, or anyone else he has victimized over so many years of victimizing people. He doesn't understand how BAD it looks.)
When it comes to Lyn's mind, I would say that he is the plaything of dark preconscious forces that he does not understand, and that if he happens to latch on to a good idea, in the process of latching on to a hundred bad ones, it's purely by accident. Whatever is good is not, you can be certain, his idea, although it may be the stolen idea of an unsung subordinate who could think more clearly.

08-12-2008, 04:55 PM

'''Doran‘‘

xlcr wrote:
Yes , you have learned enough to get you started, however, I firmly believe that if you joined, you would have never gotten to where you are today and in fact would have had your thought processes so Laroucheified that it would be laughable.
Take the case of Dean Andromidas who you mentioned. In previous posts, little more than a year ago I posted something from Dean about Al Gore.
http://www.larouchepub.com/eiw/publi...713_hitler.pdf

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1.) Yes, I fully (and "firmly") agree with you on point #1 -- I saw how this worked with my friend. He was my best friend, after all. His thought processes did become, in fact, heavily LaRoucheified. He constantly said things like "all art either celebrates the dignity of man or is bestial." This is laughable. So an artist who doesn't celebrate the nine things on the LaRouche list is "bestial." What if I just happen to like that artist? Should I pretend I don't because he is un-L.C.? (un-LaRouche Correct?) My friend ragged on solar power and said it was "stupid." He became a crypto-Catholic as LaRouche was doing that as well in the 1990s, or at least appealing to a (highly intellectualized, metaphoric) Catholic line.
2.) As for the Dean Andromidas gardening piece comparing Al Gore's gardening with native plants to half-baked Hitlerian race theory: on the one hand, that is the stupidest thing I have ever read, and the present (amongst the LaRouchies, on the Left, and even on the Right) incessant comparison of everyone to Hitler is simply hilarious. Obama = Hitler? All moderately patriotic Germans are secretly Hitlerians who want to take over the world and institute a new Reich involving killing Jews, storming the Ruhr, and making war? Hillary = Hitlery? Giuliani is a "fascist"? Anyone with charisma and drive and any power at all who is actually popular gets compared to Hitler by someone.
3.) And in the argument of this moronic gardening article, any concern with plant breeds is tantamount to human eugenics SPECIFICALLY OF THE HITLERIAN KIND.
4.) But to be perfectly honest, on the other hand this article is only a little worse than the paranoid nonsense I am forced to read in the university in which every line in every play "exposes the deep misogygny of the author," "showcases the racism and colonialism endemic" around every utterance of every character except the inevitable outcast character who is defined by modern scholars as "queer" and to whom they are sympathetic. Everyone who has gone through a lit course will know what I am talking about.
5.) On the subject of Gore's plant breeding: I get quite sick of anything remotely eugenic being compared automatically to Hitler and fascism as well. Eugenics means "good birthing" and does not NECESSARILY mean anything sinister, murderous, state-controlled, or even race-oriented at all. The term understandably gained evil accretions in the 20th century because of mass murder and forced sterilizations; but the fact is, everyone practices what can be called (taking the word's definition very strictly) a form of eugenics. And this has nothing to do with fascism at all. How often do people marry someone who is ugly, stupid, physically frail, and sickly? Not often. This is a personal eugenic choice. Most organisms, not just humans, make this choice on some level. Most folks probably would prefer that their children marry someone who will be more likely to produce grandchildren who are smart, healthy, good-looking, and not carrying hereditary disorders, too. Is this eugenics? Yes. Is it Hitlerian? I don't think so. Just another example about how concern with breeding is not tantamount to being a fascist.
Sorry, #5 was a bit offtopic.

08-12-2008, 05:33 PM

'''Doran‘‘

Quote:
Originally Posted by eaglebeak
Lyn's obsession with the fecal extended to his deeply disturbed remarks about the female anatomy, as memorialized in Christine Berl's resignation letter back in 1974, and as immortalized somewhere in the Beyond Psych series or one of its precursors.......
......When it comes to Lyn's mind, I would say that he is the plaything of dark preconscious forces that he does not understand, and that if he happens to latch on to a good idea, in the process of latching on to a hundred bad ones, it's purely by accident. Whatever is good is not, you can be certain, his idea, although it may be the stolen idea of an unsung subordinate who could think more clearly.

I want to read more of Beyond Psych. Can I get ahold of transcripts of this series of lectures? I have a long interest in wack C20 psychology. From what I can understand, he came up with this craziness as a response to what he thought was going on in CIA deprogramming. Is this correct? In any case, the cure was worse than the disease, apparently.
Your second point above: very interesting perspective. I never thought of him in that light. That rearranges a lot of my mental furniture on this matter.

08-12-2008, 06:22 PM

shadok

1 Attachment(s)

Quote:
Originally Posted by eaglebeak
As to Lyn's theory of the female anatomy and how it ruins women (biology is destiny, what?), I won't go into the details--someone who has Christine's letter to hand (didn't you post it once, XLCR?) could include the relevant portion again on Factnet.

The text can be found here http://laroucheplanet.info/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=Library.BerlWeinfieldResignatiuon4

08-12-2008, 06:42 PM

eaglebeak

Beyond Psychotic

Thank you, Shadok, for posting the Christine Berl letter. Note, for Doran and others: Marcus is of course Lyn Marcus who is of course--LHL, Lyndon H. LaRouche.
As to Beyond Psychoanalysis--this series is not lectures, but articles in The Campaigner magazine--the first article, from 1973, was Beyond Psychoanalysis; the second (early 1974) was The Case of Ludwig Feuerbach; the third, also 1974, was The Sexual Impotence of the Puerto Rican Socialist Party. Then there was a related piece, The Passion and Second Coming of L.D. Trotsky, by a onetime leader of the organization.
The titles of these things alone tell you that Lyn was already not a well man, all those years ago.
All of these appeared in The Campaigner, and I imagine all or most are online. You can try the LYM site itself, because I believe they have had the extraordinarily poor judgment to post this stuff there, and you can also try larouche planet http://laroucheplanet.info/pmwiki/pmwiki.php. Another good resource is Dennis King's site, www.lyndonlarouchewatch.org.
Shadok and XLCR may have more precise info as to where this can be found online.
There were also a number of internal memos from the early 1970s forward which were related in content to all this codswallop--for example, the Whoa-Boy memo. Again, larouche planet is the first place to go.

08-12-2008, 11:01 PM

earnest_one

Beyond-Psycho

My-laptop-has-a-broken-spacebar.
Here-is-the-link-to-LL's-bizarre_Beyond-Psycho-madness:
http://www.wlym.com/drupal/campaigners
More-later.

08-12-2008, 11:22 PM

'''Doran‘‘

Perineal Politics Plus Psychology

I am POSITIVE I have read the silly assertion before, elsewhere (i.e. not in LaRouche) that a woman's anus and sexual organ are so close together that some confusion or something like that will result. I don't think The Genius made that up.
I just got through reading Time-for-truth's posts from one year ago. What a sad, sad case. It sounds to me as though he had organic problems to begin with, though. I would guess that sleep deprivation and reading crazy nonsense exacerbated them. "This is your brain on LaRouche."
The other defender of LaRouche from that same period was blathering that "since LaRouche rejects mere Aristotelian logic, you cannot expect his utterances to conform to mere logical rules." My goodness, that is stupid. He is supposed to be making ARGUMENTS. There are rules you must obey to make arguments if you wish to CONVINCE PEOPLE.
This reminds me most of all of the stupider and crazier postmodern theory I read in my first year in grad school. Lots and lots of words, scientific ideas misused and misapplied to artistic works, an "impressive" verbiage rife with scattered cultural allusions. Luckily the book "Fashionable Nonsense" by Alan Sokal and L. Bricmont tore that sort of nonsense apart.
If any of you do not know what the "Sokal Hoax" was, I recommend looking it up. Sokal was a physicist, appalled by the craziness he was reading in literary theory journals, and submitted an article to an egregiously postmodern lit journal called Social Text in which he argued that gravity was subjective. They accepted it and published it, and then he revealed that it was a hoax. BUT THEY STUCK TO THEIR GUNS GRIMLY.
LaRouche is no postmodernist, officially speaking, but his confused and nonsensical rhetoric, bizarre connections, attempt to intimidate by name-dropping and concept-dropping, and hugely illogical world view, reminds me very much of those sorts of literary theorists.

08-13-2008, 02:32 AM

candor

Doran,
I recall the Sokal case well: and you can have fun with it in a LaRouche context by using the LaRouche internal memorandum generator at LaRouche Planet:
http://laroucheplanet.info/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=LaRouche.Larouchememo
Although I suppose LaRouche despises the Anglophile T.S. Eliot (without LaRouche having read him, which is par for the course), a paragraph from Eliot's essay "Tradition and the Individual Talent" will complement my earlier observations:
In a peculiar sense [the poet] will be aware also that he must inevitably be judged by the standards of the past. I say judged, not amputated, [emphasis mine] by them; not judged to be as good as, or worse or better than, the dead; and certainly not judged by the canons of dead critics. It is a judgment, a comparison, in which two things are measured by each other. To conform merely would be for the new work not really to conform at all; it would not be new, and would therefore not be a work of art. And we do not quite say that the new is more valuable because it fits in; but its fitting in is a test of its value—a test, it is true, which can only be slowly and cautiously applied, for we are none of us infallible judges of conformity. We say: it appears to conform, and is perhaps individual, or it appears individual, and may conform; but we are hardly likely to find that it is one and not the other.

08-13-2008, 03:29 AM

'''Doran‘‘

Quote:
Originally Posted by candor
Doran,
I recall the Sokal case well: and you can have fun with it in a LaRouche context by using the LaRouche internal memorandum generator at LaRouche Planet:
http://laroucheplanet.info/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=LaRouche.Larouchememo

Now THAT is what fun is all about.
I think I'll print some of those out and put them on cardstock and make an after dinner board game out of it. Some dice, a road your playing piece goes on. The start will be "freshman in college" and the end will be ... hmmm .... "Third decade passing out literature" perhaps?

08-14-2008, 02:56 AM

poe

Hillary on Georgia

I found the following statement by Hillary Clinton on the Democratic Underground Website: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x6622713 . If LaRouche is right about the Georgian Government being part of a British-Soros plot to start World War III, then I guess that Hillary is a British-Soros dupe.

Quote:

4/18/2008
Statement by Hillary Clinton on Georgia and Ukraine
I am deeply disturbed by the latest Russian actions regarding Georgia, and Russia's broader policies towards its neighbors.
Several weeks ago I called on NATO to extend a Membership Action Plan (MAP) to Georgia and Ukraine at the Bucharest Summit. I emphasized that this move would be a litmus test for the success of President Bush's leadership of the trans-Atlantic community. My support for MAP was based on the need to send a positive signal to Tbilisi and Kyiv to encourage them to stay on track with their positive reforms as well as to send a signal of our concern to Moscow about the future security of these countries.
I deeply regret President Bush's inability to convince our NATO allies to take this action. This is the first time in memory a U.S. President has traveled to a NATO summit and failed to achieve his publicly proclaimed goals.
Now the Russian government has taken advantage of the lack of unity coming out of the Bucharest Summit to further ratchet up the pressure on young democracies on its borders. Moscow's actions this week to strengthen ties with the separatist regions of Abkhazia and South Ossetia undermine the territorial integrity of the state of Georgia and are clearly designed to destabilize the government of President Mikheil Saakashvili.
Georgia is a small democratic state in a turbulent region. It must not be allowed to be undermined. Two weeks ago President Bush sat with President Putin in Sochi just a few kilometers away from the Georgian border. He prided himself on his close working relationship with Vladimir Putin. President Bush should call on the Russian leadership to immediately rescind these steps.
I also call on President Bush to immediately send a senior representative to Tbilisi to show our support for the government of Georgia. The United States should raise this matter in the United Nations Security Council, in a special 26+1 session of NATO's North Atlantic Council (NAC), and in the NATO-Russia Council. Russia needs to hear a unified message from the United States and our European partners about our shared commitment to Georgia's security and territorial integrity.
These are not the only Russian moves that I have found troubling. Senior Russian officials have engaged in a pressure campaign to prevent Ukraine from seeking deeper ties with NATO. President Putin even raised the prospect of retargeting nuclear missiles against Ukraine.
I am not advocating, nor do I envisage, a return to a new Cold War with Russia, which I believe ought to remain in the G-8, where the United States and its allies can together address our growing list of concerns with Moscow. But the current Administration's mishandling of Russian relations has contributed to Moscow's belief that it can do as it pleases. America and its allies can and must do better.

08-16-2008, 01:09 AM

howie

A blast from the past, posted ... um... basically because I want to link to this article from my blog and this is the easiest way to dump it on the Internet at the moment.
PRESS ENCOUNTERS OF THE THIRD KIND
Washington Post-January 18, 1987
Author: Peter Carlson
T HE DOOR WAS LOCKED AND THE sign said to telephone for admittance.
"I'm from The Post," I told the woman who answered. "I'm here for the press conference." The door in the K Street office building buzzed open and the woman instructed me to sign in. The page was blank. I was either the first or the only reporter drawn by an invitation to hear Webster Tarpley -- a follower of political extremist and perennial presidential candidate Lyndon LaRouche -- explain how an order from Moscow had inspired the Justice Department's indictments of LaRouche aides.
The woman led me to an elegantly carpeted, absolutely spotless and silent room. The walls held maps, posters and an advertisment for a special issue of LaRouche's Executive Intelligence Review entitled "Global Showdown: The Russian Imperial War Plans for 1988." Three rows of seats contained four chairs each, all of them perfectly aligned, horizontally and vertically, and all of them unoccupied. I sat and waited.
Twenty minutes later, I was still the only reporter in the room when two men emerged from behind a closed door. They sat at a table and the first man made the shortest introduction in the history of press conferences: "Webster Tarpley," he said. Then Tarpley, a chubby, gray-haired man in a three-piece blue suit, began to read from a thick pile of handwritten papers. He spoke loudly, projecting his voice as if he were indeed addressing a press conference packed with TV crews and scribbling reporters.
Tarpley, a contributing editor of EIR, wouldn't comment on the details of the indictments, which charged three LaRouche aides with conspiring to obstruct an investigation of an alleged credit card fraud scheme designed to finance LaRouche's campaign. Instead, he wanted to discuss the "political significance" of the case.
And so he did, nonstop, for the next 45 minutes. The indictments were part of a plot to ruin LaRouche, who was, he said, "the front-runner for the Democratic presidential nomination." Mikhail Gorbachev set off the plot by making a speech containing "a coded demand" for action against LaRouche. The Soviets want LaRouche silenced, Tarpley said, because he has information on their role in the assassination of Swedish Prime Minister Olaf Palme; the Justice Department wants to get him becausehe has the goods on "Irangate." The dastardly plot also involves NBC News -- "the faithful stooge and handmaiden of Soviet disinformation" -- the Anti-Defamation League of B'nai B'rith, Donald Regan, several assistant attorneys general, Olaf Palme's mis
Tarpley outlined this conspiracy in stentorian tones, pausing periodically to carefully straighten his pile of papers, which was already perfectly straight. "Much of what I'm saying," he added, "has been documented in detail in a package of reprints from the Executive Intelligence Review, which is available for those who are interested."
Wait a minute, I thought. What do you mean, "those who are interested"? I'm the only reporter in the room.
When I asked for the reprints, though, they found that they had only one set. They sent somebody out to Xerox it. Maybe they weren't expecting any reporters to show up.
In that case, I wondered, would they have held the press conference anyway

08-16-2008, 02:32 AM

'''Doran‘‘

That, Howie, is quite funny and squares well with something my dad said the other day. He is a year older than LaRouche and has been bemused by "the loser" as he calls him for many many many years. They started calling him about a decade ago after he accidentally gave them his number in conjunction with his receiving FIDELIO (my bad; I liked that magazine and got him a subscription once). My dad got them to stop calling him by saying to the woman on the phone, "you know, I think LaRouche is an impostor. He doesn't have any credentials at all. He can't get his act together enough to get anyone in any office. He's a giant fake." This offended the woman enough to strike him off her list ...
... The Loser.

08-16-2008, 04:31 PM

xlcr4life

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doran
That, Howie, is quite funny and squares well with something my dad said the other day. He is a year older than LaRouche and has been bemused by "the loser" as he calls him for many many many years. They started calling him about a decade ago after he accidentally gave them his number in conjunction with his receiving FIDELIO (my bad; I liked that magazine and got him a subscription once). [b]My dad got them to stop calling him by saying to the woman on the phone, "you know, I think LaRouche is an impostor. He doesn't have any credentials at all. He can't get his act together enough to get anyone in any office. He's a giant fake." This offended the woman enough to strike him off her list ...
... The Loser.]/b]

The question is whether the boiler room acolyte was able to raise that question herself back then or in the future. I can answer that by explaining that the cult rasies that question to members all of the time in the following manner. I was looking at some back Campaigners yesterday and had a flashback to how there were many references to the impotence of academia in them. Back in my day the recruitment was more leftist oriented and you would find that on campus. What I do remember very clearly was how much time was devoted by Lyn and the leadership at every available moment ot denounce academia, schools, teachers, professors and every single vestige of school work or life as not just impotent, but far worse. You could not stay in school and work around or support any ideas you thought were worthy unless you left that environment. In other words, if you chose to just read and buy some lit, your inaction in leaving everything and joining the LC was contributing to the end of civilization and whatever apocolyptic crisis happened to be ocuring at the moment.
If you review every year of your life, there was, is and will always be a major crisis happening somewhere in the globe. If you are Lyn, then the cheap parlor trick is to just link that to some complex order of delusional enemies where eventually one of the enemies will connect with you.
Lyn has lived of the pathetic Abba Lerner story for decades and decades as if that one room encounter which no one the face of the Earth gives a rats ass about , knows about or cares about suddenlt gave Lyn secret powers. That was the moment for the LC to twist this into a mythical Lyn slaying the academic beast for our own folklore.
What we did later was another pretty simple cheap parlor trick when I think about it. Instead of challenging a conventional view or scientific fact, we just had to employ "the polemical method" which basically is using Larouche "connecto" to spin some incredulous web of conspiracy to whatever we wished. There was no need to either understand the subject or to be able to present a critique with real info or to present any realistic alternative. It ws sufficient for us college drop outs to stomp into some poor teachers classroom, denounce him or her for miseducation and being part of the ever expanding 6,000 year old world wide plot which has enslaved humanity.
You may find a few memebrs who had some knowledge, they usually learned that and had that in the back of their heads while it was slowly being "Laroucheified". The rest of us could sprout some names of famous or obscure people , throw in the latest crisis like plant shutdowns, banks, housing, famine etc, and leave a bewildered group of people who both laughed and were annoyed at us at the same time.
You and your partner left with your heads in the clouds for doing another succesfull "intervention" to save humanity. That was written up in the local report and sent to NYC or Leesburg where if it was mentioned in the briefing, you felt even more world historical.
Lyn cracked open another bottle of Rheingau, checked the hourly income and enjoyed yet another day of fulfilling his destiny of ruling the world. If only one person showed up at that press conference by Webster, then you whiuppe dout another cheap parlor trick and write in the briefing that all of the attendees who were to show up were harrassed away by Henry Kissinger or some other delusional enemy.
Speaking of that press conference by Webster. Understand that his action was part of how the cult operated to continue a delusional existance of actually being supposed to work. The blue print was a NYC mayorial campaign inthe 1970s with Tony Chaitkin running. There was some back chatter about how we had no chance of winning or even coming close in votes to other "joke " candidates on the ballot. I do not know the full story, but Lyn and Gus blew their tops and the party line was that Tony and other USLP cansidates neede to run "as if they were going to win!". Lyn follows his own cheap parlor tricks when he gives interviews like the one we saw with the Chinese paper a few pages ago.
The other cheap parlor trick is to just say that we did get a tremendous vote, but it was stolen by vote fraud. Works every time.
What you need to notice in the Tarpley press conference is how there is not a single peep about loans, securities , tax fraud, sending members out of the country and not repaying money. Whatever was the delusional enemy at the time was why we were under indictment. This cheap parlor trick allowed us to continue to raise money and have members completely ignore the debris of abuse we were doing to members and supporters.
All of these tricks are done today to LYM and LYMettes who will have to take a few years of this lunacy before figuring it all out.
Tarpley somehow has himself in the middle of the "PUMA" group which makes for interesting questions.
http://www.rumproast.com/index.php/site/comments/the_truth_about_puma_conference_08_you_cant_spell_conference_without_c_o_n/
There is a picture of tarpley with this caption.
"That's Lyndon LaRouche devotee and 9/11 Truther Webster Tarpley showing off a little leg for the ladies. He wrote a book comparing Obama to Mussilini that was so PUMAwesome that Will Bower made him a PUMA cocktail pal so that he could pretend to be a disgruntled Democrat for CNN!
I don't know what I find more funny/surreal… that they drew 60 people, or that two of them were Andy Martin and Webster Tarpley.
Comment by known troublemaker on 08/14/08 at 02:54 PM
Actually - here's a real brain teaser for you…
Were Andy and Webster the two sanest people in the room?
Anyone ever think THAT would be a real question?
Comment by known troublemaker on 08/14/08 at 03:03 PM
Isn't Tarpley a former acolyte of Lyndon LaRouche?
Comment by Kevin (not K) on 08/14/08 at 03:04 PM
Isn't Tarpley a former acolyte of Lyndon LaRouche?
Yes… and one could legitimately argue it as the sanest bullet point in his body of work.
Comment by known troublemaker on 08/14/08 at 03:12 PM
Interesting - those white t-shirts have the DNC "kicking ass" logo on them, which seems a bit off message for a group with such disdain for the DNC.
Comment by Ripley on 08/14/08 at 03:12 PM
Let me guess, the majority of the attendees didn't want their pictures taken. Mwahaha!!
PUMA power at it's finest.
Comment by Jennyjinx on 08/14/08 at 03:24 PM
Wow, Darragh must have felt SOOOO young!
Comment by gimmeabreak on 08/14/08 at 03:24 PM
hahahahaha. This is beautiful. Darragh the reformed Republican looks might cozy with the anti-semite.
Comment by Christina on 08/14/08 at 03:40 PM
Actually, I'm not 100% sure that's Darragh so I pulled the reference.
Comment by Kevin K. on 08/14/08 at 03:42 PM
Wow.
One small point:
That's Lyndon LaRouche devotee and 9/11 Truther Webster Tarpley showing off a little leg for the ladies. He wrote a book comparing Obama to Mussilini that was so PUMAwesome that Will Bower made him a PUMA cocktail pal so that he could pretend to be a disgruntled Democrat for CNN!
Well, LaRoucheniks do like to run as Democrats, in imitation of the master.
Comment by Steve M. on 08/14/08 at 03:42 PM
...so that he could pretend to be a disgruntled Democrat for CNN!
Well, LaRoucheniks do like to run as Democrats, in imitation of the master.
I would argue the caption stands as issued… LaRouchies like to run as CRAZY Democrats, so I think Tarpley would need dispensation to present as a disgruntled Democrat!
Comment by known troublemaker on 08/14/08 at 04:52 PM

This site has some more info.
http://reason.com/blog/show/128113.html
Fun Times with Anti-Semites and Larouchies
David Weigel | August 14, 2008, 4:47pm
Blogger Kevin K. reports from that Clinton dead-ender "PUMA" conference that was derided at length yesterday.
There was scant chatter in the PUMAsphere about the convention following the closing of registration, which was pretty odd considering what a big deal they all made about the announcement of the convention in the first place. It wasn't until I heard the August 6th broadcast of the "No We Won't" BlogTalkRadio show that it became clear to me that there was a good reason for the self-imposed silence regarding the convention. Like so many other PUMA initiatives (the poorly-attended RBC "Count Every Vote" rally, retiring Hillary's debt, etc.), the conference was an epic failure. Listen to this short MP3 clip as alleged "Friends of Hillary" staffer "Paul Johnson" asks the show's hosts, Sheri Tag and PUMA co-founder Will Bower, how many people will be in DC for the conference. Stammer ... stammer ... time for the next caller! [You can listen to the full show here—Paul's call starts at the 55 minute mark]
More importantly, Kevin has photos, and they're... disturbing. Among the guests at this confab were Andy Martin and Webster Tarpley. First, a little about Martin, who wrote some of the first chain e-mails about Barack Obama's "Muslim past."
During a 1983 bankruptcy case he referred to a federal judge as a "crooked, slimy Jew, who has a history of lying and thieving common to members of his race." Martin, who in the past was known as Anthony Martin-Trigona, is one of the most notorious litigants in the history of the United States. He's filed hundreds, possibly thousands, of lawsuits, often directed at judges who have ruled against him, or media outlets that cover him unfavorably. A 1993 opinion by the US Court of Appeals for the Eleventh Circuit, in Atlanta, described these lawsuits as "a cruel and effective weapon against his enemies," and called Martin a "notoriously vexatious and vindictive litigator who has long abused the American legal system." He once even attempted to intervene in the divorce proceedings of a judge who'd ruled against him, petitioning the state court to be appointed as the guardian of the judge's children.
And Webster Tarpley:
In 1986 Tarpley attempted to run on the platform of Lyndon LaRouche in the New York State Democratic Party primary for the U.S. Senate, but was ruled off the ballot because of a defect in his nominating petitions.[2]. He was a frequent host of "The LaRouche Connection", which its producer, LaRouche's Executive Intelligence Review News Service,[3][4] describes as "a news and information cable television program".[5]
Tarpley first gained attention for co-authoring, with Anton Chaitkin, ("history editor of Executive Intelligence Review") a 1992 book on George H.W. Bush, George Bush: The Unauthorized Biography, which was published by Executive Intelligence Review, run by Lyndon LaRouche.[6] He has expounded the "Versailles Thesis" laying the blame for the great wars of the 20th century on intrigues by Britain to retain her dominance.[7] He gained experience as a political operative during his years with the LaRouche movement but broke away in the mid-1990s.
Yep. That's the intellectual artillery of the PUMA movement. I notice this as I see Markos Moulitsas has been contacted by World Net Daily's Jerusalem bureau chief (must... resist... temptation to use scare quotes) who demands to know whether the sneaky blogger forged Obama's birth certificate.
One thing that's often forgotten about the 1992 presidential race is that the character case against Bill Clinton—which had some real factual pegs, like the Gennifer Flowers affair—was distorted and waylayed by deeply silly conspiracy theories. I don't think John McCain's hurting from the wackiness of this subterranean campaign against Obama, but it's protecting the Democrat from the kind of reality-based attacks that could actually wound him.
Update: Andy Martin writes in.
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 3:02 PM
Subject: Demand for retraction and libel notice
I must respectfully request that you run an apology and retraction of your claim that I am an anti-Semite. Quoting court papers 25 years out of context is not responsible journalism or protected activity. I will have to file a lawsuit if the apology and retraction are not forthcoming. I was indeed at the meeting you mentioned, and your report is a gross distortion of what took place. Trying to smear me with out of context associations in my professional capacity as a blogger is libel per se.
Andy Martin

For the past two month or so, the cult has been sending its fanboys and jabronis to conspiracy web sites, pro Hillary sites and updates Y2K/NWO web sites using different variations of Larouche. This always makes the question of whether Tarpley did leave the cult or is he a Trojan horse or is he just crazy or all of the above and then some more. Chaitkin is the one to watch for some of this while never underestimate the leftover security staff joining in . LYM and LYMettes? Clueless as usuall
Regardless of what is written about Chaitkin here, many people would be very happy if he just ended the Larouche lunacy and went out on his own . He is getting older and older and will be reaching a critical juncture where the whole delusional world can not be salvaged. Maybe he does, maybe he does not have a clue of what this whole crazy thing has cost him oer the decades. A fine historian like himself should have a keen memory of the hundreds of friends he had who left this lunacy. Some people hate the over 10K posts here while others view it as Larouche Detox. Read, clear you head, maybe add something and then move on and reclaim your life.
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

08-16-2008, 07:26 PM

poe

Quote:
Originally Posted by xlcr4life

For the past two month or so, the cult has been sending its fanboys and jabronis to conspiracy web sites, pro Hillary sites and updates Y2K/NWO web sites using different variations of Larouche. This always makes the question of whether Tarpley did leave the cult or is he a Trojan horse or is he just crazy or all of the above and then some more. Chaitkin is the one to watch for some of this while never underestimate the leftover security staff joining in . LYM and LYMettes? Clueless as usuall


Tarpley, LaRouche, and Engdall all do seem to be pushing the same exact line these days on the Georgia situation, which goes something like:
"Saakashvili is part of a British/Soros/Brzezinski plot to start WWIII and stop enonomic cooperation between China, Russia, the United States, and India. The Russians are heros. Obama is an agent of the same people as Saakashvili (the British, Soros, and/or Brzezinski ). Therefore, Obama must be stopped. The Democrats need to nominate Hillary instead."

What all of them are leaving out is the fact that Hillary Clinton has been pushing NATO membership for Georgia for some time now, and both she and John McCain actually nominated Saakashvili for the Nobel Peace Prize
http://clinton.senate.gov/~clinton/news/2005/2005126715.html .

08-16-2008, 09:50 PM

eaglebeak

"The Guns of August"

Well, it's August. Isn't it time for LaRouche to say World War III is starting? Isn't it time for him to say "no one goes on vacation, this is war"? Isn't it time for haggard-looking boomers to cancel their few days off--not an issue for LYMers, who probably don't take days off?
Except to "study" Lyn's "writings."
Isn't it time for Nancy Spannaus to write an editorial in EIR (where else? ha ha. There IS nowhere else) about the Guns of August and World War I and Balkan (and Caucasus) tinderboxes?
I mean, this is an annual ritual of the org, observed with scrupulous attention to detail and tradition.
Speaking of vacations, looks like Jeff got a FABulous tan on his Florida vacation.
Speaking of World War I, II, and III: Dennis King has an interesting post (www.lyndonlarouchewatch.org)--a LaRouche rant on total war. Makes Dr. Goebbels look like Dr. Kildare.
Back to vacations. LYMers and LYMettes: Do you ever wonder how Jeff and Michele manage to get so much time away? If it's not their Florida vacations, it's their ski resort time-share.
Life in LaRoucheland can be quite luxurious if you're at the top--and not really living in LaRoucheland.
Around Town:
Not just Jeff's tan. Also spotted recently: Nancy looking more guilt-stricken than usual. Don't know all the details, but it had something to do with Ken.

08-16-2008, 11:06 PM

'''Doran‘‘

Quote:
Originally Posted by eaglebeak
Not just Jeff's tan. Also spotted recently: Nancy looking more guilt-stricken than usual. Don't know all the details, but it had something to do with Ken.

A photo or two would be lovely if you can arrange it.

08-17-2008, 12:19 AM

'''Doran‘‘

Two quick things

Hello xlcr (and others),
Your reference to "the polemical method" is very funny and nicely defined. I have seen something like this before. In fact, my old pal (the one I mentioned in previous posts) said that Ted (presumably Andromidas) did this once to him. Here is how it (or some cruder version thereof) "worked" (if you can say it worked -- more on that below).
My pal challenged Ted on a point. Ted took off his glasses and wiped them in that utterly preeny way and said, "Wait a minute. Have you read (point glasses-arms at my friend dramatically here) Plato's Gorgias? Do you know what the point is of the Gorgias?"
My pal said, abashed and shamefaced, "Uh, no, Ted, I haven't."
Ted looked at him, eyes blazing and said, "Wait a minute. Are you trying to tell me that you are trying to make ANY ARGUMENT AT ALL when you have not read the Gorgias? How you can dare to advance any argument whatsoever on any topic whatsoever if you have not read the Gorgias is simply beyond me."
My pal laughed as he told me it, partly because he felt ashamed and didn't know what to do, and partly because he thought it was so very effective, annoying as it was to be 'shown up,' but he admired Ted's boldness and rhetorical exposition as well.
This is how this sort of nonsense works. At least one teacher tried it on me once when I was talking about syncretism in Roman religion: she asked if I had read Edward Said's bookOrientalism. I had not, and to my credit I admitted it. She said, "Well, read that, and then tell me if you still believe that about syncretism."
The problem is (and it's a big one), THIS IS NOT AN ARGUMENT. This is a way to avoid argument. This is a way to "win" (note quotation marks) by getting your opponent to back down. But you have not actually used an idea or convinced your opponent. You have only gotten him to (temporarily) shut up. If he has a streak within him that desires to subordinate himself to a wiser master, he may never question the value or validity of this "argument." If he has a logical mind (unless logic has been bleached out of him by some utterly specious "Platonian negation of mere Aristotelian logic") he will eventually, sooner or later, realize that this was not a battle he lost. Nor one that the other person won. No one won or lost anything. The discussion was only derailed temporarily. The only thing that happened was that Ted Andromidas felt like a badass to be able to cow my old friend who was superb at kung fu and could have turned Ted Andromidas into a vegetable with a single punch. In that brief, precious moment, Ted Andromidas felt that he had a large and heavy schlong.
Sorry, those last phrases were a bit ugly. Anyway. The funny thing about the choice of Plato's Gorgias if I remember that dialogue correctly (it has been five years since I read it in Greek): aside from the Laws and of course the Republic, the Gorgias is the longest of Plato's works. (I may be slightly off, but not by much.) It is a fictionalization of the visit to Athens of Gorgias of Leontini, a highly esteemed Sicilian orator. In this dialogue, mere rhetoric is exposed as charlatanship in contrast to actual philosophy. A rhetorician has only a "knack," Plato's Socrates says, but a philosopher has actual knowledge. Here is the imaginary test: if a truly accomplished rhetorician were arguing against a real medical doctor as to who should receive the post of the official doctor of a city, in front of the city's Assembly of citizens, the rhetorician would surely win. But his patients would die, and the actual doctor, whose rhetorical skills are more modest, would lose the contest, dooming the city's people to an impostor. The fact that Ted used that particular dialogue to show up my friend shows a sense of humor that he understands that what the LaRoucheans are perpetrating is sheer nonsense. He must have a brutal sense of humor. This insight is probably in conformance with the impression that others have of him.
The notion that the academic establishment is useless, corrupt, controlled by the British, or full of lies is also huge nonsense. I will be the first to admit that much nonsense is passed by teachers. Postmodernism, for example, at least in its stronger forms, is (as far as I am concerned) sheer quackery. However, the difference between academia and the LaRouche cult is the same difference between science and Lysenkoism under Stalin.
Science and academia have built-in sifting mechanisms to TEST the claims that are made, to test them rigorously against other claims, and there are thousands and thousands of people who are eager to do this. All the time. They will try to invalidate the claims of others, WHEN THESE CLAIMS ARE STATED FORTHRIGHTLY, and a huge apparatus of journals exists in which potential articles are reviewed by the journal editors and by a committee of other scholars whose job it is to poke holes in the article that is being submitted. IT WOULD BE IMPOSSIBLE FOR A SINGLE OLIGARCHY TO CONTROL THIS APPARATUS. Because it exists in many, many countries, and editors have many, many different ideological stripes. Postmodernism is being refuted by books like The Flight From Science and Reason. A controversial idea like sociobiology is being fought over in books like Segerstrale's Defenders of the Truth (even handed but fairly in favor of it), Bock's Human Nature and History (against), and Laland and Brown's Sense and Nonsense. And when enough arguments are published to invalidate large parts of a model or idea, its maker modifies his claims if he has been convinced.
Even if a journal accepts an article, there are thousands of scholars who have worked on these problems and are reading the journal and they will publish articles in that journal or another one in which they attempt to refute that author's claims. Reading about whether Athens was popular amongst the poor in the cities of its empire in the fifth century BC requires many articles, all of which were written in reaction to each other or to a previous, published point of view. It is a fascinating process and in addition to really getting to know Thucydides and the debate at hand, you learn a great deal about how arguments are made, how assumptions stand on what evidence, and how the scholarly world operates. The arguments are published, and any person can read them and respond to them, and they do.
But all of this depends upon two important things. First, a set of clear propositions. LaRouche never, ever does this, and neither do his writers. Anything he says can, if later disproved, be defended as "metaphor." "But the crash didn't happen." "Oh, well, it was a metaphorical crash." Nothing he writes is clear; it is a jumble of references to Gauss and Kant designed to do exactly what Ted Andromidas did to my pal: to confuse you into thinking that you are not smart enough to understand his points and that it would be best if you would just shut up.
Second, there must be an apparatus consisting of many minds working on the same problems who can test other people's claims. This does not exist for the LaRouche people either. Nothing by any member of the cult has ever gotten into a real journal, as far as I know. Why couldn't some arm of the LaRouche movement edit their articles and submit them to a real scholarly magazine? OH, THEY'RE ALL CONTROLLED BY OLIGARCHS. THEY'D NEVER PRINT US. Besides the fact that no oligarchy could have the personnel to monitor all these academic journals, this is onsense for another reason, for the academic journals do print outsiders sometimes. Some of the most important books that have gotten the greatest scholarly attention have been written by outsiders. Take Black Athena by Martin Bernal. Yes, it got panned by my profession, but it also got people talking. Because it was a real book, making real claims.
Claims originating from the LaRouche establishment are never clear enough to be falsified, nor good enough to actually get past a peer review.
The second big point I wanted to make is about a book I am reading for another goal, namely The Rise of Christianity by Rodney Stark. This is a sociologist who spent much of his career on modern religious movements such as the Moonies and the Mormons and then later in his career figured he just might be "good enough to play in the Greco-Roman league" as he calls it and wrote about the early spread Christianity. Fascinating in its discussion of the mechanics of cult. And apropos to the LaRoucheans, believe it or not (ha ha). But I'll get to that later.

08-17-2008, 12:04 PM

shadok

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doran
Ted looked at him, eyes blazing and said, "Wait a minute. Are you trying to tell me that you are trying to make ANY ARGUMENT AT ALL when you have not read the Gorgias? How you can dare to advance any argument whatsoever on any topic whatsoever if you have not read the Gorgias is simply beyond me."

They are a fraud, con artists as we all know.
Funny, Ted referring to the Gorgias...
Two things:
1/ it proves he is an "other-directed" personality (like your teacher), the kind of person who needs other references to support his/her argument. Behind Ted's apparent boldness, there is a deep insecurity...
2/ did you ever, anywhere, read Plato's Socrates using that "polemical method" like a Socrates asking "Did you read this book?..." for the sake of his argument? Never of course.
Laroucheans are NOT "socratic", but like to use big names and references as stones thrown at their opponent's faces. (Btw, these big names are all from dead persons, so they couldn't complain anymore for being utilized by such a fraud. Imagine a Leibniz or a Riemann complaining for being associated with a larouche? They can't anymore, can they?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doran
Second, there must be an apparatus consisting of many minds working on the same problems who can test other people's claims. This does not exist for the LaRouche people either. Nothing by any member of the cult has ever gotten into a real journal, as far as I know. Why couldn't some arm of the LaRouche movement edit their articles and submit them to a real scholarly magazine? OH, THEY'RE ALL CONTROLLED BY OLIGARCHS. THEY'D NEVER PRINT US.

The "logic" that all academia are bad is based on larouche's notion of the "axiomatic method": All academia are bad because their "system" ("establishment") is based on "bad axioms". Consequently whatever they do, think etc. is bad because "logically" derived from these "bad axioms".
"Axioms" in Larouche's mind act like germs. If you have "bad axioms" inside you, you are like a "contaminated" person who has to be treated accordingly. Either you're curable (ie "recruitable"), then you would receive some "larouche medicine" (his literature, webcast etc) or you're not. Then the larouchian will use larouche's "polemical method" which would just be throwing at this hopeless incurable case you are, insults.... (to keep these "germs" away from the "healthy" larouchian) (1)
When I was leaving the org, a top EC member told me that I had "all the symptoms of the disease"... Disease? Mmm...
Being in the org. is like protecting yourself from a diseased society full of bad germs and potentially cured by its resident Herr Doktor LaRouche who has the "Patentrezept". There were posts here- i think from xlcr, about other "resident doctors" in the org. "treating" the members. Often the diagnosis was "psycho-somatic". Because in larouche's mind, "bad axioms" (psycho) = germs (somatic)!
"Conspiracies", as viewed in laroucheland, are simply logical consequences of "society's bad axioms": people (outside of the org.) don't know they are "bad" (fascist, brainwashed etc), don't know they "have the symptoms of the disease" but they still would act accordingly (hence "conspiracies"). That's larouchean "logic".
This is why the members don't mix with non-members (it is dangerous to have a boy/girl friend from the "outside": the risk of contamination with "bad axioms" is too high... Jeremiah Duggan when he was being "recruited" was separated from his girlfriend. Typical.)
There is an interesting parallel (2) to be drawn with the Nazi mvt.: Larouche's "bad axioms", germs contaminating, corrupting our society are comparable to the Nazi notion of "bad blood" contaminating the German people's blood. The Nazi concentration/extermination camps were a logical development of their "racial hygiene" policies in the 30s. Jewish culture and blood were corrupting the German superior aryan blood and culture (Entartete Kunst)... But Hitler considered they couldn't be "cured": Final solution. Remember larouche used to say, not being a "platonist" is like not being a member of the Human race? What does that mean?...
Larouche's obsession with the word "brain-washing" is symptomatic.
Who's brain-washing whom after all, and "washing" from what?
When people arrived at Auschwitz, they first received a... shower.

Note:
(1) Al Gore depicted as a "bacteria" by the French LYM with the caption saying that Al Gore's propaganda could kill as fast as the spread of a bacteria...
(2) I said "parallel"... Doesn't mean larouche IS a Nazi per se, but if he were in power, what would he do with all these "non-Platonists" who can't be "cured" and keep infecting our Society?... Was Jeremiah Duggan "diagnosed" by some as "incurable"?
Interesting analysis at http://laroucheplanet.info/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=Cult.InferiorCultures

08-17-2008, 01:10 PM

shadok

viruses, germs and other diseases...

This is what larouche had to say recently about the internet :

Quote:

Therefore, these three things (facebook, myspace, Computer games, note), presently dominating our culture, must each be destroyed, just as a contagious killer virus or bacteriological disease must be properly diagnosed, and cured. This disease, of course, is not a biological one, per se, but a mental and cultural disease. Our diagnosis, and a pathway towards a cure, is what follows.
From: The Noosphere vs. The Blogosphere: Is the Devil in Your Laptop?

Or this one:

Quote:

Obama is a disease, but he's not the infectious agent that caused the disease. He's a product of the disease, not a cause of it.
From: http://www.lyndonlarouchewatch.com/larouche-obama.htm

Or this older one (obviously old symptoms from lyndy):

Quote:

There are, unfortunately, too many persons who suffer the same mental disease as Kissinger and Cohn. One pities them; no human being, however wretched, should have to continue suffering the condition in which a Kissinger and Cohn exist; the problem is that very foolish people, world-wide, have given power to such homocidal types.
From KISSINGER, THE POLITICS OF FAGGOTRY


It would explain why larouche uses the word PESTILENCE to take on usury, why it's always been associated with epidemics (Black Plague etc). Usurers are more recently called "locusts" by Frau Helga...
In 1983 we started a campaign against the AIDS epidemics.
It is clear that in larouche's mind, this "biological" epidemics was a mere logical consequence of "bad axioms" (politics, culture)... There was no intention whatsoever to save/help people with HIV. Those who realized that, eventually left (I didnt but know one ex LC who is still active in this area)
To larouche watchers: don't bother deleting webpages I'm referring to (I know you did it at several occasions). I always do a backup and would, if necessary, send them to laroucheplanet website.

08-17-2008, 04:57 PM

candor

More Mendacity Big Daddy: What's that smell in this room? Didn't you notice it, Brick? Didn't you notice the powerful and obnoxious odor of mendacity in this room? -- Cat on a Hot Tin Roof
The LaRouche organs, such as they are, repeatedly bash George Soros as a Nazi collaborator. For example
http://www.larouchepac.com/news/2008/08/16/nazi-collaborator-soros-british-lord-behind-phony-democracy-.html
So I goes over to Wikipedia to sees what I can see. Turns out Soros WAS a Nazi collaborator - for TWO DAYS - at the age of THIRTEEN:
Soros was thirteen years old in March, 1944, when Nazi Germany took military control over Hungary http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungary. Soros worked for two days for the Jewish Council, which had been established by the Nazis to deliver messages to Jewish lawyers being called for deportation. At the conclusion of the second day, his father forbade him to continue. Soros' father describes the circumstances in these words:
When systematic persecution of the Jews began, it was carried out not by the Germans, nor by their Hungarian lackeys, but -- most astonishingly -- by the Jews themselves. One of the first things the Germans did was to form a so-called Jewish Council, consisting of the leaders of the Jewish community. Council members were made personally responsible for the implementation of the various German measures relating to the Jewish population. As a reward, they, their families, and those who worked for them were exempted, at least at the beginning, from these restrictions. According to Soros, he was not aware of the consequence of the messages.
To avoid his son being apprehended by the Nazis, his father had Soros spend the summer of 1944 living with and posing as the godson of a Ministry of Agriculture employee, who in turn was involved in confiscating Jewish properties.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soros
I don't know. I've been around a lot, but I've never seen a smellier gaggle of skunks and possums than this bunch.

08-17-2008, 05:09 PM

poe

Quote:
Originally Posted by eaglebeak
Well, it's August. Isn't it time for LaRouche to say World War III is starting?

If his favorite candidate, Hillary Clinton, had succeeded in getting NATO membership for Georgia, then we would actually really be in World War III right now.

08-17-2008, 05:10 PM

'''Doran‘‘

Well -- not to sound as though I seek to defend The "Genius" -- while I see the parallels made between culture and race in LaRouche's publications, and while I see the "x is the disease" rhetoric, I personally (that is, in my own judgment) am not sure I see the connection so much, although you are of course entitled to your own interpretation of the evidence.
It seems to me that by talking about wiping out a culture, LaRouche is quite definitely NOT saying anything about wiping out a race. Contrast the people on the white nationalist/white supremacist site Stormfront dot org who think that African-Americans are racially inferior, and that no education or shift of culture would raise them to human status. It seems to me that LaRouche is making a pretty important distinction between race and culture here.
I'm not trying to defend the madman, I'm only saying that IN MY OPINION it's an important distinction, and there is already so much solid stuff we can say against him that I would be hesitant to ascribe something for which I don't really see the evidence that I would normally need to make this ascription. As much as I respect the Dennis King projects, in my opinion he gets too sensational, and this is a thing in which sober analysis is called for.
On the other hand, the way he talks about the British (of all people) does tend to sound like he thinks they should be simply annihiliated. A "Carthaginian peace" as the Orson Welles film The Stranger calls it. And this does sound like, as you say, a racial annihilation, I suppose.
His refusal to speak clearly and his insistence on obfuscation and over-metaphorical use of language makes it hard to figure out what he is actually saying. The sharp about-faces over the decades don't help either. He reminds me of the many things I dislike about religion: the supposed need to interpret things that are said in an inscrutable manner, to the point that claims are made that the meaning of an utterance is the opposite of what it grammatically, literally states.

08-17-2008, 06:30 PM

poe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doran
Well -- not to sound as though I seek to defend The "Genius" -- while I see the parallels made between culture and race in LaRouche's publications, and while I see the "x is the disease" rhetoric, I personally (that is, in my own judgment) am not sure I see the connection so much, although you are of course entitled to your own interpretation of the evidence.
It seems to me that by talking about wiping out a culture, LaRouche is quite definitely NOT saying anything about wiping out a race. Contrast the people on the white nationalist/white supremacist site Stormfront dot org who think that African-Americans are racially inferior, and that no education or shift of culture would raise them to human status. It seems to me that LaRouche is making a pretty important distinction between race and culture here.
I'm not trying to defend the madman, I'm only saying that IN MY OPINION it's an important distinction, and there is already so much solid stuff we can say against him that I would be hesitant to ascribe something for which I don't really see the evidence that I would normally need to make this ascription. As much as I respect the Dennis King projects, in my opinion he gets too sensational, and this is a thing in which sober analysis is called for.


Why do you respect Dennis King? Do you really think he doesn't know he is lying when he says that LaRouche wants to eliminate races? The man knows that he is lying, and all the ex-members who are working with him know it too. There are lots of good reasons for leaving the organization, but absolutely no reasons at all for working with a pig like King.

08-17-2008, 07:33 PM

shadok

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doran
It seems to me that LaRouche is making a pretty important distinction between race and culture here.

It does NOT matter whether you or Larouche make a distinction between Culture and Race. The very fact he "intellectually" succeeds to categorize entire chunks of the population as "good" or "evil" as "human" or "sub-species" and has followers, should be worrying enough. (remember his Prometheans v Dionysiacs/Apollinians during the 80s?- proto-fascist Nietzche developed a similar view; opposing Apollo and Dionysos...) This is so central in larouche's thinking and method it cannot be dismissed too lightly.
Whatever the "means": ideological, racial, cultural or religious etc: it does NOT matter, the results could be the same.
It is a fact the org and larouche are full of hatred against some "categories" of people (recently: the Boomers with some dramatic consequences as you may remember)
Doesn't it make sense to these recent outrageous racist quotes from larouche against Obama? Maybe it surprised you, it didn't surprise me. And what about his well documented antisemitism?
To me, it does make sense and it's not about "connections" but understanding HOW larouche thinks and operates.
To Poe:
I respect Dennis King because he is one of the very very few who publicly exposed larouche. Much of his information comes from ex members who didn't have the courage to come publicly. Fact.
If he s not the "perfect man", why didn't you write a book on larouche instead?

08-17-2008, 07:57 PM

'''Doran‘‘

Those are good points, Shadok, but perhaps I just have a somewhat different perspective than you do. But we agree on more than we disagree.
As for Poe's comment: yes, I think Dennis King goes too far; along with Shadok, though, I respect that he (rather flamboyantly) wrote the book and keeps up the website. That's all.
Again, I suspect we agree on these points more than we disagree.
And there is no need to agree on everything. We are not LaRouchies who submerge their opinion into one.

08-17-2008, 08:01 PM

poe

Quote:
Originally Posted by shadok
To Poe:
I respect Dennis King because he is one of the very very few who publicly exposed larouche. Much of his information comes from ex members who didn't have the courage to come publicly. Fact.
If he s not the "perfect man", why didn't you write a book on larouche instead?


Do you think the Smith-Richardson foundation would give me a grant?

08-17-2008, 08:37 PM

shadok

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doran
Again, I suspect we agree on these points more than we disagree.
And there is no need to agree on everything. We are not LaRouchies who submerge their opinion into one.

Absolutely. There is nothing less larouchian than a free debate like on this board. Remember it s factnet.org and is meant to expose all destructive cults, including larouche's.
As for D King, my view has changed with time. The more I study larouche with open eyes, the more I agree with much of his analysis. And unlike larouche's propaganda, it is well documented and verifiable! So, I would rate higher what King writes about larouche than what larouche writes about King (or anybody else)...

08-17-2008, 08:46 PM

shadok

Quote:
Originally Posted by poe
Do you think the Smith-Richardson foundation would give me a grant?

why don't you try? Maybe after he kicks the bucket... with a title like "LaRouche Who?". I remember a small article in the press in the 80s with a pic of larouche and a title; "Do you recognize this man?" + a phone number to win a price...
Not sure you can make much money though.

08-17-2008, 09:38 PM

'''Doran‘‘

If I wanted to write a book on LaRouche, this is what I would do.
I'd go to the website of a (perhaps nearby) university and examine the CVs of the professors in history, political science, and perhaps sociology. I'd see who might have an interest in working with me on such a book.
Then I would do some very neutral reading of very well-written books on things similar to LaRouche. Not books as inflammatory as King, but more sober analyses of things. I'd also read some books by those professors that had something to do with this (for example, a book on labor movements in the USA in the 1970s, or on Baby Boomer cults in the USA, or on maybe neo-fascist movements if that's your angle, or so on).
Then I'd strategize as to how I could pitch my LaRouche interest to one or more of these professors. Then I'd contact the professor, not in a Dennis King inflammatory manner, but as a 'returning student with interests in 20tn century extremist political movements.' See if the professor wants to talk to me about LaRouche (he has likely never heard of him) and then dress decently and go see the professor and approach the whole subject as objectively (although not dispassionately) as possible. Tell him I want to work on this odd political figure.
I'd probably see if I could formally enroll into their university to finish my BA if I had not done that yet, or do a 2nd BA in their field, or an MA or a PhD if I had already done the previous step.
Then I'd have a mentor, a lesson plan, and I could write the book for my MA thesis, or for my PhD thesis, or an article for my BA history thesis. I'd get the professor to look it over and correct it (that is his job, after all; it's called "grading the paper") and then I'd fix it up according to his suggestions, and then I'd tell him I was interested in seeing where I could get this published.
He'd probably suggest another draft and that I take it to two more professors who could give their angles on it, and then another draft after that, and then I'd get their help to try to submit it to get it published in article form in a solid American history journal. This could conceivably lead to a book deal.
That's what I would do if I were interested in writing a book about LaRouche.

08-17-2008, 10:55 PM

candor

Dennis King has complained that ex-members don't step forward to fight LaRouche, and for that he must find himself hoisted by his own petard.
Any ex-member I know has not the least cell of antisemitism in his/her body, and many are in fact Jews. So after decades of running around calling LaRouche "Nazi" and "antisemite", which of us should want to go out publicly to denounce LaRouche and have the "ex-Nazi" label flung at us? To the best of my knowledge, no one I knew in the LYM was prone to antisemitism in the least.
HOWEVER, King has helped me to learn about the antisemitic and other kook sources for many of LaRouche's rants of which I was unaware. King clearly demonstrates that LaRouche has for many years knowingly filtered all kinds of racist, conspiracist filth through the sieve of his alcohol-addled mind onto paper.
So while King has made it undesirable for me to stand out against LaRouche because always I had thought that I was in opposition to all forms of racism and fascism, he has also well demonstrated that LaRouche himself is an antisemite and misogynist of the first drawer. Note that LaRouche's remarks on Obama earlier this summer exposed the drunkard as an anti-black racist as well.
The farther I get from that madhouse, the more clearly do I see the evil nonsense I was promoting.
P.S. Note that now LaRouche has Soros as the next in line of his evil Jews.

08-17-2008, 11:48 PM

'''Doran‘‘

Candor, I appreciate what you are saying, and I largely agree with your perspective; but in my opinion, it is possible to go a bit too far with some of this "horror at the filth of anti-semitism" business.
Just to be the devil's advocate, I would like to point out that throughout history, there have been individuals who have done bad things, and whose misdeeds deserve to be publicized so that the public will be informed. And these individuals have belonged to various descent groups. Of these various unsavory persons, some (perhaps only a small percentage) have been of Jewish descent.
If a (non-insane, careful, measured, cautiously factual) writer should decide for some reason to focus on the detrimental things that these particular individuals were doing, then his focussing on these things would not be evidence that he is an anti-Semite, only that he has chosen for various reasons to focus on them. Perhaps he felt that these persons were shielded from criticism because their Jewishness afforded them the protection of being able to accuse their accusers of anti-Semitism. Or perhaps the writer was particularly familiar, for some reason, with the history of a subgroup of persons who belonged to that descent group.
The same would apply if such a writer decided, for whatever reason, to focus on malefactors of African descent such as Mobutu Sese Seko. This would not mean that he is necessarily anti-black. It might mean that he simply had more familiarity with this group. It would behoove him to write about people who are not black in order to avoid being accused of racism; but he would not be obliged to do that.
Just being the devil's advocate here. I think LaRouche is a freak and the story about his giving his ex-wife a black eye several times tells me all I need to know about his misogyny. It's just that I am very cautious about using terms like "anti-Semite" since I see them so very overused these days. As the historian of Poland, Norman Davies, noted, anti-semitism is a charge used against many acts, from killing Jews to criticizing Israel's foreign policy to disliking bagels.
Moreover (except for the usage of "Children of Satan" which seems pretty clear) I generally distrust claims that there are "coded messages" in a discourse because different people can say they perceive different things. The same fairy tale will be horribly misogynistic to one sensitive, intelligent reader and not at all to another sensitive, intelligent reader.
I moderately dislike rap music. I have been asked if I am a racist because of this. I do not consider myself a racist. Although I am honestly not sure what a racist is anymore because its definition seems to get broader each year.
Once again -- I am only trying to be the devil's advocate, and I do appreciate what you (Candor) are saying.

08-21-2008, 03:28 PM

howie

http://coldfilter.blogspot.com/2008/08/cryonics-forum-cold-filter.html
Gawd, this guy cracks me up.

08-22-2008, 12:40 AM

poe

Quote:
Originally Posted by howie
http://coldfilter.blogspot.com/2008/08/cryonics-forum-cold-filter.html Gawd, this guy cracks me up.


He could call his movement the Icy LC.

08-22-2008, 07:50 PM

xlcr4life

Quote:
Originally Posted by poe
He could call his movement the Icy LC.

Ya know, the best product this forum has is a line like that for exlc who will chuckle at that. Another line in the same vogue is a comment on naming the new music group in Leesburg
MisLedZeppLyn
I crack up at the vison of the Leesburg doofuses singling like Robert Plant.
"Gotta whole lotta loons.................
Gotta a whole lotta loons................."
In rereading what Doran wrote about publishng a book, I started to hate academia myself if that is what it takes to publish. Maybe you do need serious peer review, but boy is that a tedious task. I propose to publishers that the real book about Lyn and the cult does not need to be written as a serious documentary but more as a comedic documentary.
A sort of "This is Larouche" take on "This is Spinal Tap" where the peak may have been 4 decades ago and the rest is just a downward spiral of delusions and misery. I think this way after I divest myself of the abuse, harm and death associated with the cult and take a serious look at what actually happened.
"You really can not believe what you read at times because of just how goofy it all is
Years ago I and another exlc came to the conclusion that you could make a pretty good HBO type show about this, but no one would believe you and would accuse of creating an incredible fantasy with so many delusions .
I urge everyone to read the testimony of Charles T during the 1980s trial and see how just how funny this is.
http://lyndonlarouche.org/tate.htm
I reread it again and found myself laughing hysterically at so much of this. Just a few highlites for me include:
The part where Lyn tells Ed Spannaus to feed Debbie Freeman to the wolves if an FEC investigation of his presidential financing escalates. This is comical becuase Ed can't beleive this while Lyn is telling him to cut her loose and let her go to prison basically and a "This is not coming from me Ed, OK!"
Debbie Freeman is more clueless than ever imagined by staying in the cult for another 2 decades. Lyn really has a Svengali mastery on Debbie Hanania Freeman since she worships the gorund that Lyn walls on if you ever see her on the web casts. Get a grip Debbie, your next move may be to purchase a plot next to Lyn's so you can be next to him for eternity.
The way in wich Roy Frankhauser was able to fool lyn and Security in such a way that he opened up the field for every too bit con man in DC to get millions from Lyn by feeding his delusions. I really think that at Ibykus on the front gate was a scratched mark for every security con man to find and know that there was a real crazy mark inside who would give up tons of money if you played the right story.
There was a "bidding war" in assasination plots where the variuous security grifters would outdo each other with more and more assasins and plots to increae their chance of getting more money from Lyn.
It was mentioned here once how Frankhouser would take money form Lyn to do some investigative work and instead go to a Star Trek convention. This is real funny as Tate reveals how Roy had this hocus pocus trick of a "security Curtain" aorund Lyn which depened on the whims of the NSA and CIA and what other terror actions were ongoing in the word. TAte mentions that every day Jeff, Paul, Michelle and others would wait for the phone calls on whether "The shiled was up or down" that day! I can't do his testimony justice, you have to read it. It all reminds me of a Star Trek episode where after a few blasts from the Klingons, Kirk demands to know from Scotty if the Shield is up or down for the Enterprise. I can imagine a drunken Lyn yellling "Damnit Jeff I need more shield".
Tate also shows how Nancy Spannaus hid behind a facade of being pro life when we were targetting the Pro Life people for money. Read something here about Nancy at laroucheplanet.info . Don't worry Nancy. we will have Tate's testimony up there to add to your resume.
http://laroucheplanet.info/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=Cult.NancySpannaus
Gee Nancy, you did everything for Lyn and he still ripped poor Ed a new A Hole at every chance. How much of this are you willing to take? Dod you two have some warm clothes for that ice floe being prepared in LaroucheTown?
Nancy, we have a new tote board for the total amount of money whichthe cult has raised and blown in feeding Lyn's delusions. Tell Ed that the new total, started from when you two first came aboard is up to 281 MILLION dollars and counting. Your out 40 years of your life into this lunacy and the best you have to show for it is an intense debate about Lyn on a Cyrogenic web site while Webster takes over PUMA. You and Ed gave everything for Lyn, and it shows. You still have time to end this Kafkaesque nightmare.
The divine moment for Tate, who joined at 15 and was experiencing more and more doubt was when he looked up "paranoia" in a copy of the Encyclopedia Brittanica one day in Lyn's study. Here is what the present version has to offer via the eeevil web.
Read close LYM and LYMettes, your time will be coming for your personal revelation that you are in a crazy house.
"One of the most common delusions in paranoid disorders is that of persecution. A chief contributing factor is an exaggerated tendency to self-reference—i.e., to systematically misinterpret remarks, gestures, and acts of others as intentional slights or as signs of derision and contempt directed at oneself. Self-reference becomes paranoid delusion when one persists in believing oneself to be the target of hostile actions or insinuations, perpetrated by some enemy or band of enemies, when this is actually not the case. The identifying marks of delusional conviction are (1) readiness to accept the flimsiest evidence in support of the belief and (2) inability to entertain seriously any evidence that contradicts it.
In addition to the common persecutory type of paranoid reaction, a number of others have been described, most notably paranoid grandiosity, or delusions of grandeur (also known as megalomania), characterized by the false belief that one is a superlative person."
The sections by Tate are so good to read becasue he describes just how nuts the whole environment in the cult is when NO ONE and I mean NO ONE ever doubts anything. The whole cult is set up like this and when you first ask a simle question of doubt, you are on your way out of the cult.
If you do not, you end up like so many of the current deadenders whom lyn would feed to the wolves to save buck or jail sentence.
No matter how funny Tate's testimony is, it is nothing compared to Lyn's testimony.
If Tate is reading this, I wish to thank you profusely for what you did. I had what you could call an "exit advisor" who you knew and saw a lot of. That person provided me with both verbal recalls of the testimony and written docs which finalized my leaving. There are quite a few people whom he helped in leaving by dropping hints and clues to see how hard core crazy they were. I understand why it took you some time to leave, as I did the same thing myself.
The hardest part for my exit advisor and myself was knowing that certain people were going to prison as Lyn declared himself the best lawyer in the land. I do not have the ability to quote form the PDF now, but there is testimony by Tate that Lyn declared himself to be a legal expert with powers far beyond mere mortals.
One more thing, the death of John Morris and Gary Genazzio is really yesterday's news as there is no follow up in local media. I doubt if any LYM or LYMette has asked any questions about why they ran out of gas that night. That real tragedy is now just a forgotten moment while several dozen delusions of Lyn have been sent in to fill the void.
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

08-22-2008, 09:34 PM

howie

Debating "code words"?
http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=515493
Interesting commentary by Lyndon Larouche regarding the Russian/Georgian Conflict. LaRouche uses the term "British Empire" as a code word for ZOG. You need to know this to interpret his comments. Although not a white racialist, LaRouche is pro nationaism and pro-Russian. An interesting perspective.
Meantime, Larouche flogs that he and Steinberg are interviewed by Russian television. Meh.

08-23-2008, 02:49 AM

'''Doran‘‘

Hi guys,
In accord with the sensible belief that to do a comedic take on all this madness might be apropos, I am writing a script now. I am kind of channeling David Mamet in a way.
SCENE ONE. DAY. INTERIOR. CAFE. 1 and 2 sit at table in front of window. Busy street life outside.
1.
Nobody's going to believe that.
2.
Someone will believe that.
1.
Who would believe it?
2.
I believe it.
1.
You believe it?
2.
I believe it.
1.
Well, you should believe it if you're going to try to get other people to believe it.
2.
I believe it.
1.
How could you believe it?
2.
Why would I not believe it?
1.
It's transparently impossible.
2.
Why is it impossible? Why not?
1.
These claims break the laws of physics.
2.
Who says physics have laws?
1.
OK, 'lawlike regularities.'
2.
Your problem is that your imagination is too small.
1.
Is that going to be your line?
2.
It's not a line.
1.
You can't say you believe this. I know you.
2.
If you don't have the courage to believe, maybe we shouldn't do this.
1.
Oh. "The courage to believe." Wow.
2.
I'm going to push this through. We have to move forward on this.
1.
"Move forward."
2.
Are you in?
1.
I'm in, but I know you don't believe any of it.
2.
It's impossible to know how much I believe.
1.
Impossible for me to know?
2.
Impossible for me to know.
1.
You expect people to believe you?
2.
What is belief?
CUT TO
SCENE TWO.
2.
He is the chosen one.
1.
Chosen by whom?
2.
By History.
1.
To do what?
2.
We talked about it. To make history. To change the course of events.
1.
In what direction?
2.
One that is positive for us as a whole.
1.
For our nation-state?
2.
No, no, no, not for our nation-state. You're thinking small. Nation-states? Who talks about those anymore. For our civilization.
1.
How about for the species?
2.
Why do you say that?
1.
Some Brazilian rain forest people aren't in our civilization.
2.
You want to reach out to the Brazilian rain forest people.
1.
You're the one who wants to make this big. Huge.
2.
Huge, even. Huge.
1.
OK. So you're the one who believes all of this.
2.
Some of it.
1.
Okay.
2.
So he's the one chosen to lead the race --
1.
Species. No race talk. Race is bad.
2.
To lead the species to a new era in history.
1.
He's the one. Chosen, though? I'm not sure. Who chose him?
2.
I said History chose him.
1.
Yeah, I forgot. So History chose him. What will his policy platforms be?
2.
An eclectic blend, a mixture, a mélange of Old and New.
1.
Liberal and conservative.
2.
We appeal to the conservatives with some things, the liberals with others.
1.
I like it. A lot.
2.
Who knows who is liberal or conservative any more?
1.
I do. Guns, God, no birth control ... conservative.
2.
Okay. Well, we need the populist vote.
1.
Liberals though ... better safety nets, social justice. Promote that.
2.
Social justice is multiply construable.
1.
Who will the enemy be?
2.
Satan.
1.
Come on.
(they pause in thought. They pace for several seconds.)
1.
Enemy. To unite our movement. Our cause.
2.
Satan?
1.
Satan?
2.
Satan.
1.
Can't do Satan. Liberals will never buy it.
2.
Oh.
1.
A sinister cabal intent on controlling the world.
2.
A sinister cabal.
1.
Trite. But I like it.
2.
Could sound anti-Semitic.
1.
Only to a paranoid kike.
2.
Or a liberal. Hmmm.
1.
A sinister cabal based where?
2.
Must we choose a geography? Based within the human heart.
1.
Oh please. How about a location.
2.
Where's a map? Where's a dart.
1.
You might end up in the ocean that way.
2.
Atlantis?
1.
Rome.
2.
Catholics?
1.
Rome. Power.
2.
England.
1.
England.
2.
Who?
1.
The answer will come to us after we decide what the enemy is responsible for.
2.
World environmental degradation.
1.
Boring.
2.
It's a hot topic.
1.
Boring.
2.
Enslavement slash enserfment of all human kind.
1.
I'm starting to like it.
2.
Immiseration and impoverishment.
1.
Where?
2.
Here.
1.
We're doing pretty well, globally.
2.
No, we say we're in the midst of an economic crash.
1.
There's always changes in the economic sphere of events.
2.
Exactly. We blame that on the bad guys.
1.
Bad guys. I like it. Will anyone buy it?
2.
Of course. They don't buy rational actor model. They buy good versus evil.
1.
Conspiracy.
2.
Conspiracy.
1.
Sounds big. So our Chosen Guy ...
2.
Fights the conspiracy based in Rome or London.
1.
Oh, I like it. Rome or London.
2.
He will usher in a new age of progress.
1.
How do we get their money?
2.
Hmmm. We get big sponsors.
1.
Good idea. Big sponsors. Big ones. Philanthropists.
2.
What if we don't?
1.
Then our our college kids will be squeezing dimes out of everyone that walks by. Dimes, dollars, nickels, quarters.
2.
College kids?
1.
Volunteers. We can't pay them sh**.
2.
Hmmm.
1.
We can't just count on donations.
2.
No.
1.
Sell them something.
2.
What? Flowers?
1.
No. Something more satisfying. Conspiracies.
2.
Sell a conspiracy.
1.
Exactly. Write it down. Connect the dots. We rely on every source we can find. Pamphlets.
2.
Pamphlets.
1.
Pamphlets.
2.
You are even more of a visionary than I.
1.
Pamphlets.
2.
Okay. Well, I believe in this cause. I believe in this thing. Already. I already believe in this thing.
1.
You be the belief man. I'll be the practicality man. We can make this work.
2.
I believe in this.
1.
Environmentalists.
2.
What?
1.
Environmentalists. We need to scapegoat environmentalists. They're the new Satan. The new Hitler. They're the new Pol Pot.
2.
Why?
1.
They ... get too much of a free ride.
2.
Environmentalists?
1.
They want to ... to halt progress. They want to ... to make room for the titmouse at the expense of human beings. Their path is enslavement of the human race. Forcing people into zoos for the good of the spotted tit-owl.
2.
Ahhh ... you're connecting this somehow to the enslavement slash enserfment thing.
1.
I always hated Al Gore.
2.
Any reason?
1.
No. I just hate him.
2.
All right.
That's as far as I got so far. Comedic yet sinister was the idea. Comments?

08-24-2008, 04:11 PM

eaglebeak

Lyndon LaRouche proves once again that he never read a book. I keep forgetting that the LPAC website exists. I almost never look at it, so I am seriously behind-the-times with whatever it is the folks on Sycolin Road are saying (not to mention the far more important folks in Purcellville, or those in the Basement at Windy Hill).
Someone recently pointed out to me the July 24 webcast transcript (http://www.larouchepac.com/news/2008/07/24/larouche-webcast-transcript-one-year-later.html). There's a lot of red meat in there for those who say that Lyn is completely insane, but I just want to point out a typical—as LaRouche would say—ahem, fallacy of composition in Lyn's "analysis" of "world events" and "politics."
This is the section that appears in the transcript under the subhead "George Soros: Obama's Perfidious Owner." Now, let me hasten to say, I am no fan of George Soros, to put it mildly. I think he's awful. But that's not the point.
The point is Lyn's constant (maybe deepening, maybe worsening, but forever present) aggressive confusion about everything. Here he confuses George Soros's biography with the famous Kastner incident reported in Ben Hecht's Perfidy, and serves it all up to show that Soros was third-in-command to Adolf Eichmann, and that Hitler killed Jews only because the West wouldn't ransom them with trucks. What a schm—k.
Here's what the old boy had to say (excerpted to alleviate tedium):
Now, the point is, that Obama is owned, chiefly, by a guy, who got his training under Adolf Hitler's Eichmann, Adolf Eichmann [NB: got his training. Because the SS always provided training for 13-year-old Jewish boys.] He was of Jewish origin, but he was used as part of the dirtiest operation in the killing of one-half million Jews who were assembled in Hungary from areas, not only in Hungary, but Romania and elsewhere. And he was a conscious part of processing this property. ["Property"? This is one of those cases in which Lyn wanders off the track into a different reality in the middle of a sentence. Lyn is trying, but failing, to repeat the assertion that Soros assisted the Agriculture Ministry official with whom he was hiding out, in processing/inventorying the property of Jews who had been deported to concentration camps or fled the country.] Now, he was then an adolescent, and even his father was horrified by what he did [his father is the one who bribed the Ag Ministry official, whose Jewish wife was also in hiding, to keep George with him and claim George as his godson]. And this is all a matter of record; the father has recorded interviews on these questions, [George] Soros has had recorded interviews on these questions. He's never denied any of the facts, essentially. He's denied that it's important to him. What he described as his life under Hitler, under Eichmann—he was about third-down from Eichmann in the killer apparatus on his rank [Okay, let's repeat that for those in the back—Lyn is saying that Soros was third-down from Adolf Eichmann in the "killer apparatus in the rank"—this boy who was 13 when the Nazis came into Hungary in March 1944—third down from the SS-Obersturmbannführer—got it? Can't you imagine Heinrich Himmler running an SS in which a 13-year-old Jewish boy was third-down in the rank from the man charged with overseeing the Holocaust?—he said it was the happiest time of his life! In other words, he was not somebody who committed something as a young man, under great duress. He remained, in his personality, in his instinct, in his behavior, exactly what Hitler had made him, what Eichmann had made him…. [Hitler and Eichmann didn't make him anything. They had nothing to do with him.]
To get a picture of this, you take a book by an American, Ben Hecht, who was associated with Hollywood, a writer, and so forth. He wrote a book called Perfidy. And this is what he is! And what Ben Hecht showed—the significance of his particular writing on this, on Perfidy—is that Jews were processed [There's that word again, but I think he means programmed.] to do this! And that's what he meant by "perfidy." Soros is a Jew, who became a Hitler tool, and, as a British tool today—and he's still a British citizen, not an American—is doing the same thing today, in terms of the way he's acting toward the human race, that he did when he was working for Adolf Eichmann! Back in 1944, in the process of shipping a half-million Jews, gathered from Hungary, Poland, Romania, and so forth, gathering them in there for the slaughter. [Lyn's ignorance of World War II is extraordinary, for someone who has compared every opponent on the planet to Hitler. No Jews from Poland were shipped to Hungary to be gathered for the slaughter. Millions of Jews from Poland went straight to Auschwitz—in Poland. But this is just one more part of Lyn's constant effort to diminish the numbers of the Holocaust, misunderstand its causes, lie about its scope and intent.]
And what Hecht referred to, the early part of this: Hitler had gotten a project going [No, this had nothing to do with Hitler. He never knew about it. It's not clear that Himmler knew about it. This was Adolf Eichmann's brainchild at war's end, a cockamamie scheme on his part to get materiel for the collapsing German Army], under which he offered to release a certain number of Jews for every number of autos [trucks] supplied by Britain and the United States and so forth, for the German Army. And the killing process went on the basis—"you didn't turn over the trucks, so we kill the Jews. You didn't turn over the trucks; we kill the Jews." And that is the essence of George Soros! [And that is the essence of Lyndon LaRouche—who has obviously never read Hecht's book, but who has found another "excuse" for the Nazis—the Allies didn't give trucks to help the enemy war machine in the midst of global war, so somehow, the "killing process" becomes attributable to the Allies…. Lyn will never admit that Hitler's lifelong mission was to exterminate the Jews; Lyn, who is for collective guilt for everyone—especially Jews—won't permit a breath of it for Germany.
[In earlier days, taking a leaf from the book of the malignant Willis Cardo and all the other anti-Semitic creeps Jeff Steinberg and his cronies dug up, Lyn claimed that the Jews were killed because they were trade unionists or communists, not because they were Jews. That they were killed as an unfortunate side effect of slave labor, not because they were Jews. That they died of epidemics in the camps, not of gas chambers. That their plight was no different from that of the Polish intelligentsia. That besides, not "that many" were killed—"only" 2 million, he claimed, until outcry even within his own ranks made him revise that "calculation."]
Anti-Semitism
In that connection, as part of the dialogue ongoing on FactNet, let me note that I was in the Labor Committee for several decades, and I met all sorts of members who seemed to me to have more than a little anti-Semitism in their makeup. For some, it was just small-town ignorance; for some, it was far more malevolent.
The fact that a high proportion of members were Jews was and is entirely irrelevant. Some of the most virulent anti-Semites in the organization were Jews. I'm sure you old-timers know who I mean. For those newer to the org, ask Jeff and Michele Steinberg.
As for my views of Lyn and his anti-Semitism. I think Lyn's principal hate object is humanity, and I don't think anti-Semitism is by any means the differentia specifica in his case, but it's certainly there. Not because he doesn't like bagels, and not because he doesn't like Israel (although he doesn't)—it has something to do with his upbringing at the hands of two very peculiar parents, and also the time and place of his upbringing, and also his desire to insinuate himself in many circles (radical Islam might be one, the New/Old/New Left another) where anti-Semitism is the coin of the realm.
Dennis King's book Lyndon LaRouche and the New American Fascism has some interesting data on Lyn's early life, and there's more to be had, but it may be helpful in understanding Lyn to imagine an unappealing, arrogant, spoiled boy being raised by an overly doting mother and a deranged father, both of them paranoiacs and fanatics, living in small towns and the rather isolated culture of New England in the 1920s.
Speaking of King
Speaking of Dennis King. Poe writes: "Do you really think he doesn't know he is lying when he says that LaRouche wants to eliminate races? The man knows that he is lying, and all the ex-members who are working with him know it too. There are lots of good reasons for leaving the organization, but absolutely no reasons at all for working with a pig like King."
Here's what I think:
1. King believes that LaRouche is a racist anti-Semitic menace.
2. King doesn't consider that he's lying. Poe may think he's wrong—apparently he/she does—but I'm curious to know how Poe knows that "the man knows that he is lying." Does Poe know King? Has he/she talked to King?
3. King tends to see LaRouche's hate-filled malevolence and violent abusive attacks on the world around him, through the lens of politics—specifically, fascist politics. Personally, I tend to see LaRouche as a cult leader whose chief interest is the utter domination, to the point of destruction, of the personalities of those he's gathered around him—that is, I don't see LaRouche as political at all, really.
So in that respect I don't agree with King. However, I think King and I agree that LaRouche is evil.
4. That brings me to my final comment, in reference to Poe's remark that there are "absolutely no reasons at all for working with a pig like King." Putting aside the tone of the word "pig," I would say only that it is possible Poe does not yet understand all, or even most, of the reasons for quitting the organization and therefore does not understand what reasons someone might have for working with King.
Personally, I am grateful to King on a number of points, even though he and I don't agree on the nature of LaRouche's Weltanschauung. I also think that the virulence of the LaRouche response to King* suggests that King has been right more than he's been wrong. And has been very inconvenient to LaRoucheland, as has his colleague Chip Berlet.
How About That Psycho-Sexual Impotence, Folks?
Let's try to imagine if we can come up with a more impotent gesture than Helga's latest petition: http://www.larouchepac.com/news/2008...come-true.html
Now everyone who knows Helga knows she's addicted to petitions—good heavens! How many zillions have been circulated over the years? But this one seems even more ineffectual than its predecessors. Who's being petitioned here? And to do what? Talk about the Queen of Mindless Busy Work. But let's face it--mindless busy work is how the leaders of the org keep the members, from Babies to Boomers, tethered to the org. As in collecting petitions that will never be handed in. Or mobilizing to have statues torn down--statues that are still standing. Or "changing history" by singing outside the Democratic Convention in Boston in 2004. I can't wait to see what they'll do in Denver.





*Remember Lyn's creepy press release about King committing suicide? http://www.larouchepac.com/news/2007/07/27/dennis-king-planning-suicide.html. In such good taste, especially given that the release appeared just three months after Ken Kronberg's suicide….

08-24-2008, 04:31 PM

eaglebeak

P.S. Note to poe I thought the Icy LC was one of the best things I have read on this board.

08-24-2008, 09:26 PM

boomer70

Quote:
Originally Posted by eaglebeak
Let's try to imagine if we can come up with a more impotent gesture than Helga's latest petition: http://www.larouchepac.com/news/2008/07/29/helga-zepp-larouche-make-dream-american-revolution-come-true.html

what is this thing? the product of a late night drinking bout?

08-25-2008, 08:41 AM

‘‘larouchetruth'''

Naa, not a drinking bout. But if not that, what?? Naa, I don't see this as the result of a drinking bout. First of all, it's translated, and grammatically without blemish, so there is no slurring of words or grammatically incoherent phrases. If they were there in the original German, they are gone now.
But what is it?? Yes, this is surely a puzzle. The last paragraph says it all, as it is the only paragraph that is remotely reflective of a petition. It bears repetition verbatim:
What mankind needs today, are individuals who have the vision and the love for the idea of the international community, to put the question of a new, just world economic order on the agenda. This resolution is a call to leading representatives of all nations, to work toward this goal. And the more forces appeal to the three presidential candidates who still find themselves in the race, to honor the promise of the American Constitution and Declaration of Independence for all nations on this planet, the greater the chance that America can return to the positive role which it played in the times of Benjamin Franklin, Alexander Hamilton, John Quincy Adams, Abraham Lincoln, and Franklin D. Roosevelt.
So, this is a call to "leading representatives of all nation" to appeal to the "three" presidential candidates still in the race (begging the question of who's the third? Nader? Rom Paul? Who knows? Or cares?) to "honor the promise of the American Constitution and Declaration of Independence for all nations of the planet." Now, that really nails it. This makes it precisely clear what the signers purpose is, as the economy and financial systems collapses around us into a new dark age.
Which makes one wonder. Is this "petition" actually off the reservation? Was it, perhaps, not approved by LHL himself. It's absolutely not his style. Is MisLedZepp striking out on her own? I mean, this petition is to bring the U.S. to "return to the positive role" which it played in the times of the American Revolution, the Civil War and World War II. It's got nothing to do with what LHL put into his July 22 doozey, focused totally on the HBPA, his two-teared credit system, and fixed exchange rate plot to bankrupt every treasury on the planet. I suppose it could be stuck with chewing gum to LHL's call for the US to convene Russia, China and India, the first named likely to be real receptive around about now to any such call for American ledership of such a consortium, but it's nowhere hinted at explicitly.
The interesting question is, will anyone still inside think this just a tad strange? You'd think they might. And not coming from LHL gives them a slight sliver of daylight to think an independent thought. Time will tell.
But, as you've all noted, another utter howler.
But nothing compared to the webcast itself. This plowed new ground that I hope to explore in a few days, to such heights (or is it depths) of absurdity that no words I have been able to come up with begin to convey the magnitude of the stupidity of what LHL says about the banking system and how finance works. Truly mindboggling. More anon.

08-25-2008, 01:36 PM

borisbad

When Helga talks about community of priniciples between the democratic United States and world leaders, isn't she talking about those great upholders of democratic principles like the President of the Sudan, Robert Mugabe, Putin, Chinese Premier Jibao, and all those other illustrious leaders of the past and present like Juan Peron, Noriega, Sadaam Hussein, etc. Of course he can't be talking about leaders like Gordon Brown, Sarkozy, etc. The only murderous dictators I remember Lyn ever denouncing was Jonas Savimba (not a ruler but certainly a murderer) and Idi Amin, although I'm pretty sure he came out against the Israelis when they rescued the hostages in Uganda in Entebbe.
I was very interested in Ben Hecht and his book Perfidy. I know that the Satmar Hasids use his book quite a bit in attacking the secular Zionist state. However, even there there has been much questioning as to the accuracy of his article about the involvement of the early leaders of the Zionist movement on the supposed issue of trying to bargain the rescue of Zionists from Europe while leaving orthodox Jews behind.
But of course, LaRouche will uncritically take up any cudgel in attacking the Zionists.
Ironically, the only time LaRouche has ever attacked anybody for being anti-British is when he and the organization denounce Begin and the Irgun for their campaign to drive the British out of Palestine. You would think that with LaRouche's fervid anti-British ideology he would have supported the rightwing Irgun and Stern gang for their anti-British attacks, but that seemed to be the one time when LaRouche found himself sympathizing with the British, who at that point were desperate to appease the Arabs on the issue of the future of Palestine.

08-25-2008, 06:45 PM

xlcr4life

Quote:
Originally Posted by larouchetruth
Which makes one wonder. Is this "petition" actually off the reservation? Was it, perhaps, not approved by LHL himself. It's absolutely not his style. Is MisLedZepp striking out on her own? .

This is an interesting line of thought. The past several posts here should be addressed based on your perspective in the LC since it will vary, based on where you were at the time. When Helga came to the USA her initial meeting with the LC was in the 1979 Detroit conference where a sort of throne was brought out for her to sit down on the stage in the Masonic Hall. A few years later and we have the start of her own project called The Schiller Institute. This started off also as a petition and the lines I read today are deja vu from the early 1980 founding conferences. As Eaglebeak mentions, she does like petitions, except when they are directed at the cult's role in the Duggan death.
To clarify some history, we did have many early petitions in the USLP (US Labor Party) and NUWRO (National Unemployed Welfare Rights Org) days. There were petitions against slave labor with coal gasification plants (anti Humprhey Hawkins bill) , an "Emergency Agricultural act", an anti drug petition against Rocky, a pro fusion 'McCormack fusion power bill" and numerous pro nuclear petitons at card table shrines at airports. The petitions were a way to make this less of a cult in my opinion and create the master illusion that we were actually doing something besides being a cult of personality. We also petitioned like crazy to get Lyn on the ballot. In California I think we paid a service to get our AIDS bills on the ballot for referendums. Petitioning though, did not make the kind of money you want, so I think it was dropped.
Later, the petitons always revolved around Lyn and getting contacts with a title to sign something calling for something or stating that Lyn was a political prisoner and all those stories about 30 million in loans were all fabrications. I seriously doubt that anyone who signed those ads lent us money .
There was always a sort of Helga vs Lyn in the LC where Helga had the "softer side" of the cult and had an army of artisons who in my opinion were made to feel above the day to day grind, even though they too were getting 5 bucks a day. With Lyn in Ibykus, you were a servant or jester who saw plenty of far right grifters and nuts get paid thousands while you got a few bucks and scraps. With Helga, you could win the LC lottery and go on a shopping trip with her, and get a few bucks and some scraps. Those Helga lottery winners like Shiela Jones did not make out so good in the end though.
Helga always had some people in Europe as her trump card and the view of the US org was pretty simple. According to my exit advisor, Helga and the Germans viewed the USA as nothing but "The fundraising arm of the Germans". She and her German bodyguards would talk to each other in German at Ibykus about how what they were doing was so superior to the USA and the USA needed to raise more money for them to spend.
As Lyn gets to the final days of coffin building, this leads to internal intrigue as to who will take over. I kinda see Helga getting some inside info on Lyn's health and starting her move. Remember that for the past few years as Lyn was setting older LCers onto ice floes, Helga was very quiet and hardly in the briefing.
laroucheplanet.info has some of the battle here.
http://laroucheplanet.info/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=HaveFun.CelebritydeathMatch

This leads to one of the disagreements I have with King over the wealth of the LC. Somewhere I read that King believes that there is offshore money held by Lyn and others just waiting to be discovered. This I think is a mistake of King in thinking that Lyn has the brains to actually plan somehting like this. A normal con man would have some money stashed away in secret hiding places to tide you over on some island or far away place. Most con man do not have a cult to make them money around the clock till they die. Most con man asistants would also not work for nothing like LYM and LYMettes as they would eventually move on. Lyn himself had 13 million or so sent to the various con man who fed him delusions as you see in the court testimony.
Lyn also is not an economist or someone who knows about anything which is why I would doubt he has any hidden funds for Helga and friends. A "normal" cult would have had a multi year real estate purchasing plan and long term investments to build up wealth. Lyn only knows the "Lorouche-Schacht Method" which the good folks at laroucheplanet.info have placed here for eternity for everyone to review here:
http://laroucheplanet.info/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=Money.LaroucheSchacht
The only hint of hidden money I can surmise at the present moment is when Lyn became agitated with Uwe F over 9 million dollars when most of the ELC took off. It was at this time that we saw less of Helga.
This a sort of LC soap opera "As the Cult turns". Decades ago we have Uwe F f'ing Helga, Helga eye's a meal ticket in Lyn and gets Lyn, Lyn Beyond Psychs Uwe F , Uwe F may have escaped with some loot and Helga outlives Lyn till the next episode.
The bottom line for me is that I can see Helga getting ready to put the lackeys and skivosas in the USA in their place as the heir to the misfortune.
Something Boris Bad mentioned also triggered a memory flashback. When we released the edition of Dope Inc with the Protocals of the Elders of Zion we also had the NS articles by Lyn on the Holocaust. It was in this era that I first noticed that for some reason, certain Jewish members of the LC were reading "Perfidy" by Ben Hecht. Since I am not Jewish, almost all of this went over my head in seeing just how a cult uses certain internal dynamics to get people to do what tkey normaly would not. The combination of the ADL, Dope inc and Perfidy has me overhearing some Jewish members talking about "those perfidous Jews" where the discusion was about Jews running the drug business and then the ADL and then via connecto being against Lyn and wanting to kill him because only he was saving humanity from not just Jewish named bankers, but also the Zionist lobby and their drug pushing army. This was also when Tony Chaitkin presnted his family history to sort of give a stamp of approval on our campaign against the ADL for calling Lyn a small time Hitler. The question remains as to how much damage was done to Chaitkin to dismantle his critical thinking to the point where he was now promoting a cult like ours which featured German Nazi Rocket Scientists as friends, ignored the war crimes of our friends, maybe hears about Lyn joking with Carto and that crowd.
In the least case, Didn't Tony go through the period where the LC was swapping "Jew Jokes" among members to "toughen them (Jewish LC members) up"?
You see, if you were not in the LC you would not clearly understand the cult dynamics at work. You did not see Nazi flags in the office, buy you saw old Nazis and their work being glorified by us. You did not see us in the same room with Holocaust deniers, but Lyn and Jeff and Paul were in the same room with them and what we printed was just a variation of their lunacy. I only saw stories about Nazis at the ice caps in the back of cheap pulp magazines, but Lyn was pushing one Nordic story after another using Tilak and others . I defy anyone in the LC to admit that the majority of members actually read that material and had any idea of it or had any time to read it closely. The one person I found so far is Charles Tate who mentioned this in his court room testminoy where he challenged Lyn's lunacy and figured out that Lyn was a know nothing blow hard with a cult of acolytes.
As usual, the LYM and LYMettes have no idea that their future is one of which post Lyn death cult they will be part of. All I know is that Helga's dogs were valued more than members as they ate better, had better lving standards and travelled better. Helga's dogs I was told also travelled by the SST from Europe to the USA and back at $5,000 a trip.
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

08-25-2008, 09:00 PM

candor

By the way, did anyone catch the Harvard Yard video? Kookerei in the form of a legitimate documentary with some octogenarian suited up in a grandfatherly sweater who had flunked out of Northeastern - twice, mind you - commenting sagely on Harvard's history.
http://www.larouchepac.com/harvard-yard
Lyn, it's never too late to get a life.

08-25-2008, 10:27 PM

poe

Quote:
Originally Posted by borisbad

Ironically, the only time LaRouche has ever attacked anybody for being anti-British is when he and the organization denounce Begin and the Irgun for their campaign to drive the British out of Palestine. You would think that with LaRouche's fervid anti-British ideology he would have supported the rightwing Irgun and Stern gang for their anti-British attacks, but that seemed to be the one time when LaRouche found himself sympathizing with the British, who at that point were desperate to appease the Arabs on the issue of the future of Palestine.


He used to say some really horrible things about the IRA.

08-25-2008, 11:37 PM

xlcr4life

All roads lead to the British

Quote:
Originally Posted by poe
He used to say some really horrible things about the IRA.

Whe I was in the LC, IRA was simply reduced to being run by the British as a PsyOps operation out of where else, Tavistock. It did not matter what the problem was between the Protestants and Catholics, everything was run by the British. it did not matter if British soldiers were being killed , they were all expendable by the British as part of the New Dark Ages, Rocky's fascism, Jimmy Carter, Malta, Kissinger, take your pick. The opposition was also British run. This all coincided with the IRA bombings in England and linking Chris White and the brainwashing caper to part of a global conspiracy where Lyn's secret powers of reason figured out that the CIA AND MI5 AND the KGB AND the GRU and the NFL were part of the plot against............................the ICLC. Now that I think about it, in 1975 or 1976 we had endless NS articles about how the devaluation of the Pound was part of the Rockefeller conspiracy to impose world wide Fascism with David and Nelson Rockefeller ruling the globe . At this time Lyn went to Europe and we were all told that Lyn was now "tight" with the "Gods of Olympus". We did walking tours telling people door to door that we need to revive the Pound to save the USA!
The deadenders need to clean ouu theie closets and put all of those NS articles and leafletts on the web so we can all have a good laugh at how silly this all was when you actually read it. Then you understand why this was and is a revolving door cult .
This all should have been a clue for me as who else but Lyn would run for the White House by not doing anything in the USA except send telex messsages from Europe?
Now that I think about it more, our solution was to make the Russian Ruble the global currency via the IDB. The IDB (International Development Bank) was Lyn's solution he presented to European Bankers and International rulers of the world in Europe. The banker's and the Swiss rejected Lyn's proposals even though they knew that it would mean that their economic holdings would collapse and make them bankrupt. This of course led to the threat of thermonuclear war. With the solution being the German -Russian plan where the Ruble was used to create credit to via the "Brandt/Breshnev plan where now Lyn was the secret negotiator between West Germany and the USSR.
Once the 1980 campaign got underway, mysteriously, the Russians were now the enemy with Soviet tanks ready to roll over West Germany and Field Marshall Lyn was going to command NATO forces and the USA military to kill every Russian Orthodox Church going parishoner to save the planet from thermo nuclear war. That culminated with "Global Showdown".
For anyone who is reading this and is only familiar with this cult, it was crazy , is crazy and still is crazy. The stories never ended as we went from one plan to save the world to quickly switching sides to save the world.
The LYM and LYMettes are getting the same version with damn near the same program via Helga's petioning and Lyn reaching for the "Thermo Nuclear card" in the cheap parlor trick pack of cards.
The troika always has to revolve around World economic collapse, Thermo Nuclear War and a New Dark Ages. If you switch those around like three card monte cards, the suckers in the LYM and deadenders will always pick a card with one of those items as the face card.
http://www.larouchepac.com/news/2008/08/21/larouche-warns-we-are-closer-world-war-iii-november-election.html
LaRouche Warns: "We Are Closer to World War III than to November Elections"
21 Aug 2008
August 21, 2008 (LPAC)--Lyndon LaRouche today warned, in no uncertain terms, that the world is closer to World War III than it is to the November Presidential elections in the United States. "November is a far distance away, LaRouche noted.
He elaborated: "The world situation, and recent events, show that we are at the point of breakdown of the world system, and the threat of a thermonuclear World War III is immediate. The provocations against Russia, via George Soros and British intelligence's Saakashvili government in Georgia, is but one leading edge. Despite the focus of attention on the Caucasus in the past week,
LaRouche continued, "the Iranian issue is very much on the table. Do not put it past Vice President Dick Cheney and his British controllers to orchestrate a major provocation, while the Democrats are gathered in Denver next week. "This is an all-purpose go situation,'' LaRouche warns"
Lyn could have died last year and between a few people here, we could write every release for the LYM and LYMettes and no one would bat an eye. Well, maybe by default we would make more sense.
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

08-26-2008, 01:56 AM

xlcr4life

Quote:
Originally Posted by xlcr4life
With the solution being the German -Russian plan where the Ruble was used to create credit to via the "Brandt/Breshnev plan where now Lyn was the secret negotiator between West Germany and the USSR.

Big correction on my part. In getting ready to leave the house to get kids to sports practises I had a memory problem with my LC figurines. it was Helmut Schmidt not Brandt who Lyn was now negotiating with the Russians to save the planet.
Willy Brandt went from being a Nazi to a Soviet KGB spy. While a Nazi , the ELP was sued and lost a court case in Germany over using Nazi symbols in an article on Brandt in a cartoon.
Schmidt was also with Giscard De'Stang in Lyn's speed dial to save the planet. The pecking order of heads of state who Lyn was commanding was sorto of like the pecking order of the ICYLC. Germany was at the top of the food chain and Italy barely made it to the top 10. Mexico and South America made it whenever you had a dictator running the show or a corrupt gov which could use some help in having a USA Democratic Presidential candidate show up to denounce one thing and place the blame of the countries poverty not on corruption and bad management outside forces.The IMF South of the border, the World bank in Europe, the CFR and Trilats in the Mid West, the British took the franchise for Africa and then became the basic enemy with connecto.
It all leads to bankers and people with Jewish last names in the end anyways which is how the Muslim part of the globe added Lyn and people like David Duke to the usefull fool list. Now Lyn has the Saudis and BAE as the culprits which means that they may have not renewed their EIR sub. Lady Di dies and you can use that to start another round of calls and attempts to land a big one for the cult as that played itself out. The real fun is seeing how Firck and Frack, the Colonel, Mr. Ed, and a host of others wound up taking Lyn for millions in the middle of this.
LYM and LYMettes, clueless as usual to what the genetic code of Lyn and the Cult have in repeating this farce over and over and over and over.
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

08-26-2008, 09:56 AM

shadok

1 Attachment(s) Doktor larouche and WWIII

Quote:
Originally Posted by xlcr4life
LaRouche Warns: "We Are Closer to World War III than to November Elections"
21 Aug 2008


well during the 1976 US elections larouche had a tv boadcast where he warned "nationwide" that: "The election of Jimmy Carter means thermonuclear war no later than the Summer of 1977"....
video of this memorable "forecast" here on youtube
and for all his "ww3 record", have a peek at laroucheplanet.
Of course, as the con artist he is he could still argue that by "warning" the world of an imminent WWIII.... he avoided it (and saved us).
It is like Doktor Larouche diagnosing you with an imaginary lethal disease. You re feeling scared and unwell by these distressing news. But impressed by the "authority" of Herr Doktor and his "knowledge" you take the (placebo) medicine he prescribed to you. A few weeks later, you re feeling better and "cured" and thankful to Doktor Larouche, your savior...
This larouche "dialectical method" is the "negation of the negation" revisited: the "negation" (cure) of an imaginary disease ("negation" of health) ---> "larouche is a doktor" and saved you...
The larouche "dialectical method":
or how "something" comes out of "nothing"... as the mad King Lear he is...

08-26-2008, 02:45 PM

borisbad

I was going to comment on Poe's remarks about the IRA but xlcr4life beat me to it. Of course, there is truth in the contention that the British (arch imperialists for many centuries) did use counterinsurgency techniques to monitor and help control various insurgencies (that's what counterinsurgency is supposed to do), and the British SAS were heavily involved in IRA activities. This is nothing new, as the French, Germans and Russians used the common technique of planting agent provocateurs in various leftwing socialist and anarchist groups over 150 years ago. LaRouche and his minions described (accurately in my mind) the way the British deployed the Mau Mau in Kenya or took it over, as a way of manipulating anti-British movements in the 50s and nowadays links this to Obama's father as a way of trying to show Obama is a British agent. The thing about LaRouche is that he always took a nugget of truth and weaved it into his conspiracies. To him, none of these movements (like the IRA for instance) could have developed as organic movements in opposition to some wrong or injustice, they would always be some creation of an elite behind the scenes group, whether the Knights of Malta, the Trilateral Commission, the Bilderbergs or now the BEA, etc. Everything is manipulated from behind the scenes.
Speaking of the Irish I found this interesting Irish site exposing some crank in Northern Ireland who's part of the 9/11 Truth Commission who appears to be an overt anti-semite. This guy has been linked to Webster Tarpley, who may himself be a LaRouche counter-insurgency operation pretending to be independent of LaRouche to suit LaRouche's own ulterior motives.
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/82481

08-26-2008, 03:10 PM

borisbad

Looking deeper into this counter-insurgency stuff, I'm beginning to think that Webster Tarpley's role in the 911 truth movement is one ongoing insidious aspect of the LaRouche attempts to push his agenda. I'm reading up on the attacks inside the Truth movement itself on how Tarpley and some very sordid compatriots like this guy Capt. Eric May and his so-called Ghost Troops have been pushing to evade any involvement of Islamo Terrorists like Al Qaeda being at all involved in 911 while involving Zionists and of course the Bush Administration under the false flag theory. As usual, when people in the 911 Truth Movement began calling Tarpley out, he and LaRouche's tribunes begin attacking the critics as part of the conspiracy itself.
This stuff is very similar to the connections that laRouche had made with Carto and the Minutemen back in the 70s and 80s, but of course, with the Internet, it tends to spread far quicker than these connections ever could back in the Twentieth Century.
I also see the footprint (or pawprint) of LaRouche in trying to manipulate the PUMA anti-Obama Hillary supporters into trying to spread as much mischief as possible at the DNC Nominating Convention.
http://arabesque911.blogspot.com/search/label/Kennebunkport Warning
Skull and Bones has some interesting commentary on the Tarpley influence inside PUMA. My guess is that PUMA is more likely a RNC operation to cause mischief inside the Dems since nothing makes McCain and Rove and the rest breathe easier than to see a disunified Democratic Party. (Speaking of false flag operations).
http://www.struat.com/election/category/the-larouche-challenge/

08-27-2008, 01:13 AM

candor

Clinical Specimen

For those with psychoanalytical training, check out the following clinical specimen:
http://www.larouchepac.com/news/2008/08/26/defeating-force-tragedy-festschrift-helga.html
In this Festschrift offering, he cannot allow himself to talk about Helga as a freestanding individual, as
When Two Souls Conspire -
To really understand our Helga, it is essential to know her as I have come to know her. We are, indeed, an extraordinary pair.

08-27-2008, 02:05 AM

xlcr4life

Quote:
Originally Posted by candor
For those with psychoanalytical training, check out the following clinical specimen:
http://www.larouchepac.com/news/2008/08/26/defeating-force-tragedy-festschrift-helga.html
In this Festschrift offering, he cannot allow himself to talk about Helga as a freestanding individual, as
When Two Souls Conspire -
To really understand our Helga, it is essential to know her as I have come to know her. We are, indeed, an extraordinary pair.


Wow, the LYM and LYMettes certainly have their future preordained by Lyn.
I am looking for a word to describe this......................................
CREEPY!
I read this closing line and had douche chills.
"For that reason, my beloved Helga is, in fact, almost as precious to you, as she is to me."

xlcr4life@hotmail.com

08-28-2008, 03:37 AM

howie

<i>I am looking for a word to describe this......................................
CREEPY!</i>
I cannot count the number of times you have described something coming from the land of Larouche as, "Creepy".
What strikes me here is that it is a little difficult to find "Hegla" in this thing. You have to skip half-way down past a bunch of crap on George Soros and Abraham Lincoln. A long historical interlude for something supposedly honoring her. But then it veers back again -- the neo-malthusian greens, and even if you have to define her political activities against that she is still lost in it. Final sentence, probably the only one worth mentioning -- "All Your Helgas Are Belongs to Us!"

08-28-2008, 08:38 PM

xlcr4life

[QUOTE=howie;362908
I cannot count the number of times you have described something coming from the land of Larouche as, "Creepy".[/QUOTE]

I think "Bizarro world" is my number one descriptive term. That usually is confined to Leesburg or LaroucheTown life. "Lunacy" is right up there as that was the number one term used by my close friend and exit advisor to describe so many things about Lyn and the cult in my last days.
"Creepy" comes from what most college age bloggers and posters use to describe running into the cult and listening closely with some engagement. I have not found a term better then Creepy to describe something so morbid or foul that it raises the neck hairs of someone like myself who has many years of direct experience with the cult.
The articles done on Jeremiah Duggan's family and Ken Kronberg's family go above anything I ever experienced in the LC. "Creepy" is in the same milleu as stalkers . There is something quite frightening in seeing first hand a person who truly believes their own delusions and bequesting those delusions to the "mentally impaired" as described in Lyn's Ibykus barn speech many, many years ago.

BTW, Everyone here remember the posts we have had here about how Helga viewed Lyn in Germany in the early LC days? I think someone is playing a joke on Lyn or he is just catching up to reading "Larouche 3". This is from the new LPAC release by Lyn on Helga from above.
http://www.larouchepac.com/news/2008...ift-helga.html
" For her, it was as she often described that occasion, like the experience of Hollywood actress Fay Wray's meeting with "King Kong."
Good God this is too funny LYM and LYMettes. Lyn got Helga from Uwe F and Fs him. Uwe F may have gotten millions from Lyn years later, Fs him and sticks the cult with Helga who needs millions to shop with. Who knows if Helga goes back to Uwe F in the end as the dirt gets shoveled on Lyn.
LYM and LYMettes, clueless as usual as most cult members are. For the last remaining deadenders in the LC, notice that Lyn did not sacrifice his offspring to the cult like he had you do to yours. Enjoy singing at the funeral, just one more thing to cry about as you grow real old.
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

08-29-2008, 06:43 PM

eaglebeak

The Lament of the LaRouchist

Say, whatever happened to Michael Bloomberg?
You know, I've read so often in LaRouche publications that LaRouche is right in every prediction, projection [I'll say—ed.], and forecast he's made, and I've been sitting here all through Democratic Convention Week and now I'm about to sit all through Republican Convention Week, and by jiminy, I can't figure out where Bloomberg is.
I could've sworn he would be the Democratic nominee. Unless it was going to be Hillary. One thing I knew for sure: The nominee wouldn't be Obama. (Unless the British backing of Obama meant that he would be the nominee and the British backing of Bloomberg meant that he would be …. uh…. hmm….)
And imagine my surprise when the Dem Veep pick was -- Joe Biden. Didn't see that coming. I had it on the highest authority that Barry was going to pick Mike. Anything else would have been a fallacy of composition. Or do I mean a composition of fallacies?
Whatever. (Oops. Shouldn't say that. Shows the utter mental and cultural corruption of our society.) Anyhow. Fallacy schmallacy. I wasn't too worried about the underlying validity of the analysis because there were still the Republicans. And I had it on the highest authority that John McCain was going to pick both Joe Lieberman AND Mike Bloomberg for Veep—a fourfer (like a twofer only more so): a former Democrat, a former Democrat-and-former-Republican, and two Jews.
I'm a little confused here, but I'll go back and re-read the documentation (see http://www.larouchepac.com/news/2008...ascist-di.html, for instance) and hone my interpretation more closely to what Lyn really means.
I mean, I know it can't be him. So it must be me.

08-29-2008, 08:00 PM

localgreek

when 2 souls conspire

[QUOTE=xlcr4life;362782]Wow, the LYM and LYMettes certainly have their future preordained by Lyn.
I am looking for a word to describe this......................................
CREEPY!
========================
LOcalgreek: I must confess I have never read an entire LL document or EIR article; they are often disconnected tracts or artificially connected items, but I did read this hommage to the POET Helga. Frankly, with all due respect this piece is nothing but a bunch of name dropping; the references that are dropped reveal only a superficial familiarity with the authors cited; it is creepy that people go for this, accept this; the piece is repulsive on so many counts; what is it Shakespeare said: "A tale told by an idiot signifying nothing." Nothing except meshugana creepy disturbing things; my skin crawled too; I will no longer read this LL stuff; I just do not understand how people can accept this. Are the people in this movement sick? Borismaglev used to say they had neurological damage; did LL damage them? were they already damaged? I am utterly crestfallen that so many parents have had to suffer losing their children to this utter lunacy. Think of all the parents crying at night because their children have been hurt by all this, are lost in this, and have died in this.

08-29-2008, 09:54 PM

eaglebeak

Deadbeats Everywhere

I see today that Alexandria, VA lawyer Bill Moffitt is preparing to sue beleaguered Detroit Mayor Kwame Kilpatrick for the latter's failure to pay his bills, and for Kilpatrick's alleged conversion of Moffitt's unpaid work to his own use. Moffitt currently charges $550 an hour for his services.
Why should we care?
Well, those of you who have a copy of that absurdly titled book Railroad can go read up on the 1988 LaRouche Federal case and discover that Bill Moffitt was Mike Billington's lawyer in that one. (I think it was Mike—could have been Dennis Small. I don't have my "Railroad" in front of me. And there's a certain interchangeability there.)
I wonder how much Moffitt got paid in that case (not $550 an hour, for sure, but he was no doubt very expensive—LaRouche believed in hiring good lawyers, and then running out on the bills—except, that is, for his own lawyer's bills).
And I note that in the Kilpatrick case, Moffitt is saying that "I've never had a client who had not fulfilled his obligation, who would not sit down and talk with me about it."
I'll bet that's true, too. I'm sure Moffitt had his ear talked off in the Alexandria case. Mike could talk for hours to people about why they weren't getting paid. He'd talk about Henry Kissinger and the FBI and how if anyone tells you we don't repay loans, why, that's an FBI operation. In fact, that's what did him in, legally speaking—all that talking. And the fact that he taped his own conversations, so that they were ready, right there, in the office when the FBI did its famous October 1986 raid in Leesburg, VA.
(Speaking of Dennis—he was only too happy to talk about non-payment, as long as it meant he didn't have to pay. After all, Dennis—along with Nancy Spannaus—has been in charge of the "Finance Office" for years, and they're old hands at not paying, and then talking to you about it. Except for Ken Kronberg. They stopped talking to Ken about payments and non-payments. The Labor Committee stiffed their lawyers all over town, as the saying goes, but they stiffed Ken worse.)
Now we know that the org's legal bills, those extravagant monuments to LaRouche's unbridled egoism, were paid or unpaid by CDF—the Constitutional Defense Fund (great name, eh?)—whereas the Finance Office represented a sort of mélange of "entities." (Can you say fungible?)
But Nancy and Dennis (and Mike, as I noted) and Barbara and Bruce and the others—they're all kinda fungible, too.

08-29-2008, 11:50 PM

xlcr4life

Quote:
Originally Posted by eaglebeak
I see today that Alexandria, VA lawyer Bill Moffitt is preparing to sue beleaguered Detroit Mayor Kwame Kilpatrick for the latter's failure to pay his bills, and for Kilpatrick's alleged conversion of Moffitt's unpaid work to his own use. Moffitt currently charges $550 an hour for his services.
Why should we care?.

Here are two articles about Moffitt.
http://paralegalslo.blogspot.com/2008/08/detroit-mayors-ex-lawyer-sues-for.html
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080828/METRO/808280398/1409
I think the story with moffitt is that he wanted to prevent Billington from making his case worse than it was by opening his mouth. Billington's approach brought him an incredible prison sentence by the time he was through. Anyone who knows more should add to this.
In the Wash Post, someone decided to make Lyn a word historical figure . Instead of handing out 2 million leafletts which soon become recycled waste, the new methodology appears to be adding a comment .
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/postpartisan/2008/08/lost_in_translation.html
"Lyndon LaRouche predicts McCain will install billionaire NYC Mayor Bloomberg to be his VP tomorrow. He will fulfill their agenda of privatizing U.S. government's programs, infrastructure and jobs for big profit$$$ as the depressing economy threatens their wealth.
The country is going into a major economic depression with over 5000 banks are already bankrupt today with more day by day.
Hillary was rid of because she would fix the economy by bringing back President FDR's economic Bretton Woods policy to fix current economic collapse. This policy caters to the 80% of the forgotten people and threatens the oligarghy's wealth and whose ultimate goal is to rid of all governments, peoples' sovereingties and Constitutions. To install fascism.
In total contrast, Hillary would have fixed the bad economy by using President FDR's Bretton Woods system and is why she was rid of as the most qualified candidate.
Posted by: Anonymous | August 28, 2008 7:55 PM "
God this is too funny when you see all of the news outlets with the non male Sarah Palin on the podium with McCain.
Here is a bit of testimony by Charles Tate in the trial aout Lyn's legal mind.
"Q. Now, is it fair to say that Mr. LaRouche's organization was
2 fairly constantly involved in lawsuits, suing people?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. All right. And is it also true that Mr. LaRouche felt that
5 he couldn't trust lawyers or he could handle lawsuits better
6 than lawyers?
7 A. Oh, absolutely.
8 Q. All right. So if there was a legal situation, Mr. LaRouche
9 could take charge and he would do what had to be done and he
10 thought he could do it better than the lawyer?
11 A. Yes, sir."
Now we read what legal eagle Ed Spannaus has to offer and how Skeevosa Debbie Freeman is dumber than I thought for sticking around in the LC. Yes LocalGreek, the LC does do damage to your mental hygeine when you stick around.
Q. And let's switch -- well, do you know a man by the name of
a Mr. Ed Spannaus?
9 A. Yes, 1 do.
10 Q. Was he ever a Labor Committee member?
11 A. Yes, he was.
12 Q. And what was his function?
13 A. Well, he has had many functions during his experience in the
14 Labor Committee. I think at the time -- if you're asking about
15 the time that I left the organization, he was a member of the
16 National Executive Committee and he had various responsibilities
17 for coordinating the move to Leesburg, Virginia, and he was
18 responsible for the organization of his legal staff. And that
19 basically, I think, characterizes his various responsibility at
20 the time that I left.
21 Q. All right. And did you ever observe Mr. Spannaus to use
22 notebooks?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And how often did you observe him to do this?
25 A. Well, I didn't observe Ed Spannaus as often as other
persons. I was -- ~fter all, I was on the Security staff and
2 worked with people on the Security staff on a daily basis. I
3 worked with Ed Spannaus much less frequently. But there again,
4 for the most part when he was receiving information of any
5 substance, he would write it down in a notebook in my presence.
6 Q. All right. Now, you saw him more or less than you saw the
7 people on the Security staff?
8 A. Considerably less.
9 Q. All right. On the times that you did see him, did he have a
10 notebook with him on more or less occasions?
11 A. More often than not.
12 Q. How many times was it that -- well, how frequently was it
13 when you saw him receiving a briefing from anybody that he was
14 writing in his notebook?
15 A. Hard to say. My recollection is that he was -- he was less
16 I guess I can now use the word punctilious about notebook
17 entries than other -- than the people on the Security staff, but
18 I'd say half to three-quarters of the time he would make a note
19 of his conversations in my presence. He also had his notebook
20 at hand and made entries in it and, I suspect, somewhat more
21 carefully when he was at meetings of the National Executive
22 Committee. And I did indeed observe him doing that --
23 Q. All right.
24 A. -- on some occasions.
L 25 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Spannaus in conversation wlth
Mr. LaRouche?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Spannaus in conversation with
4 Mr. LaRouche when Mr. Spannaus was giving Hr. LaRouche a
5 briefing?
6 A. Yes.
7 O. On those occasions did you ever observe him to use a
8 notebook?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. How frequently on those occasions?
11 A. On some of the occasions he used his notebook as his source,
12 you know -- however, I think he was a bit more likely to -- I
13 don't want to characterize it as likely. I think he followed
14 his notebook -- my physical evidence is, of course, he wasn't
15 looking at it as closely as, let's say, members of the Security
16 staff when they were briefing LaRouche because they tended to
17 read it more or less or summarize more or less directly what was
18 in the notebooks. Spannaus was not describing intelligence,
19 world events or those, kind of things so much. He was describing
20 and discussing ongoing security, legal and organizational
21 questions, so that it was less an ,issue of communicating facts.
22 So that there was less of a need for a, you know, memoir to, you
23 know, bone up on those facts. However, he did have the
24 notebook. He referred to the notebook in the course of these
25 briefings. And when he was told to do something most
importantly he wrote it down in his notebook.
2 Q. Was it his regular practice at or near the time he got
3 instructions from Mr. LaRouche to write those instructions down?
4 A. Well, I don't know what instructions may have flown from
5 Mr. LaRouche directly to him on that question. I do know that
6 all
7 Q. I'm not asking that question.
8 A. Okay. I'm sorry.
9 Q. I'm not asking if you ever heard Mr. LaRouche instruct him
10 about writing.
11 A. Okay. I'm sorry.
12 Q. Did you ever hear Mr. LaRouche give Mr. Spannaus
,.. i 13 instructions on any subject?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. How frequently dio you hear Mr. LaRouche give Mr. Spannaus
16 instructions on any SUbject?
17 A. Three or four times.
18 Q. All right. Did you ever observe an occasion on which
19 Mr. LaRouche gave Mr. spannaus instructions that Mr. spannaus
20 did not write those down?
21 A. I did observe occasions when he didn't write them down, yes.
22 I also observed occasions when he did.
23 Q. All right. And how many times did you see him write down
24 instructions from Mr. LaRouche?
25 A. I recall -- well, I'm speaking now of three or four
occasions. r recall one clearly comes to mind when he was
2 writing, and another clearly comes to mind when he was so aghast
3 I don't think he would have been able to write anything. And
4 there are two others which I don1t know.
S Q. 11hen was the one when -- what was the one where you were so
6 aghast--
7 A. That he was so aghast.
8 Q. when he was so aghast that he couldn't write it down?
9 A. It was when Mr. LaRouche informed him that if the FEC
10 investigation of Deborah Freeman began to pose serious
11 consequences to the organization, she would be cut loose. And
12 Ed was very surprised to hear that, and so was I. I think I was
13 less surprised than Ed was.
14 Q. What did Mr. Spannaus say on that occasion?
15 A. He said, "We can1t do that to Debby.A
16 Q. And what did Mr. LaRouche respond?
17 A. He said, AI didn't order this. If Debby Freeman did
18 anything wrong, it didn't come from me."
19 MR. WALKER: Excuse me, your Honor. It wasn't clear
20 about who said if it
21 THE COURT: The answer may be read back if you wish It.
22 MR. WALKER: Maybe it could be clarified by
23 Mr. Markham's question.
24 BY MR. ~~RKHAMI
25 Q. Who were you just quoting?
A. All right

2 Q. why don't you just tell -- if you could, describe the event.

3 A. All right. I'll describe that once again. This was in
4 response to the question about when he was so aghast tha~ he
5 didn't write anything down or at least he didn't write anything
6 down during the period of time in which I was in the room. Let
7 me be more precise.
8 He was describing a situation in Baltimore, Maryland ~n
9 which an investigation was underway of a woman named Deborah
10 Freeman, who was a National Committee member of this
11 organization. The FEe investigation I think alleged or
12 revealed, I'm not sure if it's the correct word, possible -- I'm
13 being vague because I don't know the real legal standing of this
14 case -- possible wrongdoing on the part of Mrs. Freeman in the
15 context of political campaign involving the Federal Elections
16 Commission. And this was a discussion between Mr. Spannaus and
17 Mr. LaRouche concerning what was to be done in this case.
18 Mr. LaRouche's response to Mr. spannaus' summary of the
19 situation was that if Debby Freeman had been found to have done
20 anything wrong, she would be cut loose. Ed Spannaus was aghast.
21 clearly, to hear this. He said, "We can't do this to Debby."
22 And LaRouche's response was, AIf she did anything
23 wrong. it didn't corne from me. I didn't authorize it."
L
24
25
Q. Did Mr. Spannaus have any further response?
A. Not for several seconds.
Q. Well, but what ~id he say?

2 A. I don't know. I -- he had nothing to say for himself for
3 several seconds. He was -- he looked to be at a loss. He
4 didn't know how to respond. And I finished my business in their
5 immediate vicinity during this interchange and I left the room.
Here is a nice quote from the case.
".
3 Q. Did Mr. LaRouche think of himself as some kind of
4 mathematician?
5 A. WeII, Mr. LaRouche thought of himself as a universal genius;
6 and since mathematics is a subject about which universal
7 geniuses think, he thought himself a mathematician.
8 Q. Did he have any training in mathematics besides high school
9 algebra?
10 A. Well, he didn't even finish his first term in college, so my
11 guess would have to be no.
12 Q. But it didn't stop him from speaking abou~ this sUbject at
13 some length?
14 A. Nothing stopped him from speaking about almost any subject,

LYM and LYMEttes, "have fun" reading this as Lyn always tells you when you return to the card table shrines and toxic inhalation intersections.

xlcr4life@hotmail.com

08-29-2008, 11:55 PM

xlcr4life

Quote:
Originally Posted by eaglebeak
I see today that Alexandria, VA lawyer Bill Moffitt is preparing to sue beleaguered Detroit Mayor Kwame Kilpatrick for the latter's failure to pay his bills, and for Kilpatrick's alleged conversion of Moffitt's unpaid work to his own use. Moffitt currently charges $550 an hour for his services.
Why should we care?.

Here are two articles about Moffitt.
http://paralegalslo.blogspot.com/2008/08/detroit-mayors-ex-lawyer-sues-for.html
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080828/METRO/808280398/1409
I think the story with moffitt is that he wanted to prevent Billington from making his case worse than it was by opening his mouth. Billington's approach brought him an incredible prison sentence by the time he was through. Anyone who knows more should add to this.
In the Wash Post, someone decided to make Lyn a word historicla figure . Instead of handing out 2 million leafletts which soon become recycled waste, the new methodology appears to be a comment .
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/postpartisan/2008/08/lost_in_translation.html
"Lyndon LaRouche predicts McCain will install billionaire NYC Mayor Bloomberg to be his VP tomorrow. He will fulfill their agenda of privatizing U.S. government's programs, infrastructure and jobs for big profit$$$ as the depressing economy threatens their wealth.
The country is going into a major economic depression with over 5000 banks are already bankrupt today with more day by day.
Hillary was rid of because she would fix the economy by bringing back President FDR's economic Bretton Woods policy to fix current economic collapse. This policy caters to the 80% of the forgotten people and threatens the oligarghy's wealth and whose ultimate goal is to rid of all governments, peoples' sovereingties and Constitutions. To install fascism.
In total contrast, Hillary would have fixed the bad economy by using President FDR's Bretton Woods system and is why she was rid of as the most qualified candidate.
Posted by: Anonymous | August 28, 2008 7:55 PM "
God this is too funny when you see all of the news outlets with the non male Sarah Palin on the podium with McCain.
Here is a bit of testimony by Charles Tate in the trial aout Lyn's legal mind.
"Q. Now, is it fair to say that Mr. LaRouche's organization was
2 fairly constantly involved in lawsuits, suing people?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. All right. And is it also true that Mr. LaRouche felt that
5 he couldn't trust lawyers or he could handle lawsuits better
6 than lawyers?
7 A. Oh, absolutely.
8 Q. All right. So if there was a legal situation, Mr. LaRouche
9 could take charge and he would do what had to be done and he
10 thought he could do it better than the lawyer?
11 A. Yes, sir."
Now we read what legal eagle Ed Spannaus has to offer and how Skeevosa Debbie Freeman is dumber than I thought for sticking around in th eLC. Yse LocalGreek, the LC does do damage to your mental faculties when you stick around.
Q. And let's switch -- well, do you know a man by the name of
a Mr. Ed Spannaus?
9 A. Yes, 1 do.
10 Q. Was he ever a Labor Committee member?
11 A. Yes, he was.
12 Q. And what was his function?
13 A. Well, he has had many functions during his experience in the
14 Labor Committee. I think at the time -- if you're asking about
15 the time that I left the organization, he was a member of the
16 National Executive Committee and he had various responsibilities
17 for coordinating the move to Leesburg, Virginia, and he was
18 responsible for the organization of his legal staff. And that
19 basically, I think, characterizes his various responsibility at
20 the time that I left.
21 Q. All right. And did you ever observe Mr. Spannaus to use
22 notebooks?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And how often did you observe him to do this?
25 A. Well, I didn't observe Ed Spannaus as often as other
persons. I was -- ~fter all, I was on the Security staff and
2 worked with people on the Security staff on a daily basis. I
3 worked with Ed Spannaus much less frequently. But there again,
4 for the most part when he was receiving information of any
5 substance, he would write it down in a notebook in my presence.
6 Q. All right. Now, you saw him more or less than you saw the
7 people on the Security staff?
8 A. Considerably less.
9 Q. All right. On the times that you did see him, did he have a
10 notebook with him on more or less occasions?
11 A. More often than not.
12 Q. How many times was it that -- well, how frequently was it
13 when you saw him receiving a briefing from anybody that he was
14 writing in his notebook?
15 A. Hard to say. My recollection is that he was -- he was less
16 I guess I can now use the word punctilious about notebook
17 entries than other -- than the people on the Security staff, but
18 I'd say half to three-quarters of the time he would make a note
19 of his conversations in my presence. He also had his notebook
20 at hand and made entries in it and, I suspect, somewhat more
21 carefully when he was at meetings of the National Executive
22 Committee. And I did indeed observe him doing that --
23 Q. All right.
24 A. -- on some occasions.
L 25 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Spannaus in conversation wlth
Mr. LaRouche?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Spannaus in conversation with
4 Mr. LaRouche when Mr. Spannaus was giving Hr. LaRouche a
5 briefing?
6 A. Yes.
7 O. On those occasions did you ever observe him to use a
8 notebook?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. How frequently on those occasions?
11 A. On some of the occasions he used his notebook as his source,
12 you know -- however, I think he was a bit more likely to -- I
13 don't want to characterize it as likely. I think he followed
14 his notebook -- my physical evidence is, of course, he wasn't
15 looking at it as closely as, let's say, members of the Security
16 staff when they were briefing LaRouche because they tended to
17 read it more or less or summarize more or less directly what was
18 in the notebooks. Spannaus was not describing intelligence,
19 world events or those, kind of things so much. He was describing
20 and discussing ongoing security, legal and organizational
21 questions, so that it was less an ,issue of communicating facts.
22 So that there was less of a need for a, you know, memoir to, you
23 know, bone up on those facts. However, he did have the
24 notebook. He referred to the notebook in the course of these
25 briefings. And when he was told to do something most
importantly he wrote it down in his notebook.
2 Q. Was it his regular practice at or near the time he got
3 instructions from Mr. LaRouche to write those instructions down?
4 A. Well, I don't know what instructions may have flown from
5 Mr. LaRouche directly to him on that question. I do know that
6 all
7 Q. I'm not asking that question.
8 A. Okay. I'm sorry.
9 Q. I'm not asking if you ever heard Mr. LaRouche instruct him
10 about writing.
11 A. Okay. I'm sorry.
12 Q. Did you ever hear Mr. LaRouche give Mr. Spannaus
,.. i 13 instructions on any subject?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. How frequently dio you hear Mr. LaRouche give Mr. Spannaus
16 instructions on any SUbject?
17 A. Three or four times.
18 Q. All right. Did you ever observe an occasion on which
19 Mr. LaRouche gave Mr. spannaus instructions that Mr. spannaus
20 did not write those down?
21 A. I did observe occasions when he didn't write them down, yes.
22 I also observed occasions when he did.
23 Q. All right. And how many times did you see him write down
24 instructions from Mr. LaRouche?
25 A. I recall -- well, I'm speaking now of three or four
occasions. r recall one clearly comes to mind when he was
2 writing, and another clearly comes to mind when he was so aghast
3 I don't think he would have been able to write anything. And
4 there are two others which I don1t know.
S Q. 11hen was the one when -- what was the one where you were so
6 aghast--
7 A. That he was so aghast.
8 Q. when he was so aghast that he couldn't write it down?
9 A. It was when Mr. LaRouche informed him that if the FEC
10 investigation of Deborah Freeman began to pose serious
11 consequences to the organization, she would be cut loose. And
12 Ed was very surprised to hear that, and so was I. I think I was
13 less surprised than Ed was.
14 Q. What did Mr. Spannaus say on that occasion?
15 A. He said, "We can1t do that to Debby.A
16 Q. And what did Mr. LaRouche respond?
17 A. He said, AI didn't order this. If Debby Freeman did
18 anything wrong, it didn't come from me."
19 MR. WALKER: Excuse me, your Honor. It wasn't clear
20 about who said if it
21 THE COURT: The answer may be read back if you wish It.
22 MR. WALKER: Maybe it could be clarified by
23 Mr. Markham's question.
24 BY MR. ~~RKHAMI
25 Q. Who were you just quoting?
A. All right

2 Q. why don't you just tell -- if you could, describe the event.

3 A. All right. I'll describe that once again. This was in
4 response to the question about when he was so aghast tha~ he
5 didn't write anything down or at least he didn't write anything
6 down during the period of time in which I was in the room. Let
7 me be more precise.
8 He was describing a situation in Baltimore, Maryland ~n
9 which an investigation was underway of a woman named Deborah
10 Freeman, who was a National Committee member of this
11 organization. The FEe investigation I think alleged or
12 revealed, I'm not sure if it's the correct word, possible -- I'm
13 being vague because I don't know the real legal standing of this
14 case -- possible wrongdoing on the part of Mrs. Freeman in the
15 context of political campaign involving the Federal Elections
16 Commission. And this was a discussion between Mr. Spannaus and
17 Mr. LaRouche concerning what was to be done in this case.
18 Mr. LaRouche's response to Mr. spannaus' summary of the
19 situation was that if Debby Freeman had been found to have done
20 anything wrong, she would be cut loose. Ed Spannaus was aghast.
21 clearly, to hear this. He said, "We can't do this to Debby."
22 And LaRouche's response was, AIf she did anything
23 wrong. it didn't corne from me. I didn't authorize it."
L
24
25
Q. Did Mr. Spannaus have any further response?
A. Not for several seconds.
Q. Well, but what ~id he say?

2 A. I don't know. I -- he had nothing to say for himself for
3 several seconds. He was -- he looked to be at a loss. He
4 didn't know how to respond. And I finished my business in their
5 immediate vicinity during this interchange and I left the room.
Here is a nice quote from the case.
".
3 Q. Did Mr. LaRouche think of himself as some kind of
4 mathematician?
5 A. WeII, Mr. LaRouche thought of himself as a universal genius;
6 and since mathematics is a subject about which universal
7 geniuses think, he thought himself a mathematician.
8 Q. Did he have any training in mathematics besides high school
9 algebra?
10 A. Well, he didn't even finish his first term in college, so my
11 guess would have to be no.
12 Q. But it didn't stop him from speaking abou~ this sUbject at
13 some length?
14 A. Nothing stopped him from speaking about almost any subject,

LYM and LYMEttes, "have fun" reading this as Lyn always tells you when you return to the card table shrines and toxic inhalation intersections.

xlcr4life@hotmail.com

08-31-2008, 07:50 AM

scrimscraw

A grind for all seasons

Quote:
Originally Posted by sancho
So much for the Lynuversity, kids:
http://www.larouchepac.com/news/2008/08/29/larouche-outlines-organizational-policy-now.html
Now you will all learn well the grind that your "boomer" enemies within the organization have been through for decades.
Kiss your teeth goodbye!
Have fun!

Indeed. As LHL says:
"Our most prominent role, as through the work of LPAC, is to provide the intellectual leadership on crucial economic and other strategic issues which neither of those candidacies is presently equipped to deal competently without outside advice, including that provided by our initiatives. As far as the intellectual leadership goes, one might start with grammatically correct sentences. The above does not pass muster. "Therefore, our LPAC campaign has far greater importance for the weeks immediately ahead, than at any time prior to this point. We shall therefore mobilize accordingly.'' i.e., forget everything you were working on previously, we are now in the heart of the greatest crisis yet (until the next one, of course), and don't even think of taking Labor Day off.

08-31-2008, 03:30 PM

laroucheplanet

1 Attachment(s) Hi Hi to all factnet posters and readers-
Thanks to all for keeping this discussion board alive and for sometimes referring to pages from our website. Clearly there is an interesting dynamic between the two.
As an example, we have attached a pic received recently - obviously inspired by new posts here.
We have also used some of xlcr4life material, comments from eaglebeak, shadok and others who don't want their names to appear. More material from factnet will be published.
We keep receiving new analysis, pages and stuff all the time and all new contributions are welcome.
The goal of course is not just more information and access to some burried secret internal documents but to make sense of all this larouche nonsense...
More to come
Stay tuned on our What s new page http://laroucheplanet.info/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=Main.WhatsNew
Thanks from laroucheplanet.info
Keep the fight on!

08-31-2008, 04:31 PM

howie

I guess the org is putting their chips into creating films, as opposed to singing in front of political party conventions... the new films owe much to Forrest Gump, as the premise is much the same: placing Lyndon into historical moments.
One thing that struck me from the statement and the statement on the statement is this phrase:
The danger of a Republican victory in November was, in fact, highlighted the same day of the LaRouche and PUMA post-Denver statements, when [Sarah Palin pick.]
Larouche sees himself as leading the PUMA forces.

09-01-2008, 03:08 AM

xlcr4life

Death bedtime for Larouche

Quote:
Originally Posted by howie
<i>I am looking for a word to describe this......................................
CREEPY!</i>
I cannot count the number of times you have described something coming from the land of Larouche as, "Creepy"."

Maybe you are right Howie. I reread this a few times and it sort of reads like a death bed directive to the LYM and LYMettes about who they are to listen to after the final breath. All of the maneuvering, posing and dancing over who gets to run the empire in Leesburg looks like Lyn's last joke on the deadenders. If you have not been shoved to an icefloe yet, or signed over your kids, or taken out that last credit card loan, then your last days on earth in the LC will be governed by Helga. Her mission will be complete as my exit advisor often warned me about 20 odd years ago "Helga views the US org as the fundraising arm of the Germans"
Your mission in the USA will be to raise the funds for both Munich shopping tours and for whatever proposals Helga has for the globe. She will use Lyn's cheap parlor trick by resurrecting all of the old Schiller Institute festivals meetings and conferences which will cost a fortune to fly in and pay all of what my exit advisor called "Former nobodies'.
Your role in the USA LYM and LYMettes will be to fund her fantasies for another few decades instead of Lyn's delusions.
Since reading the FESTSCHRIFT FÜR HELGA - I have a vision of Lyn in a dark room telling a very sad and crying Jeff that he really will be serving another Larouche till he dies... Helga.
http://www.larouchepac.com/news/2008/08/26/defeating-force-tragedy-festschrift-helga.html
The word I find in additon to creepy is
"macabre"

One entry found.
macabre

Main Entry: ma•ca•bre
Pronunciation: \mə-ˈkäb; -ˈkä-brə, -bər; -ˈkäbrə\
Function: adjective
Etymology: French, from (danse) macabre dance of death, from Middle French (danse de) Macabré
Date: 1889
1 : having death as a subject : comprising or including a personalized representation of death
2 : dwelling on the gruesome
3 : tending to produce horror in a beholder

Maybe this all a cruel repayment by The Jews since the word macabre also has this origin.
"Another claim is that the word "Macabre" comes from the two Hebrew words "מן הקבר " (Min Hakever), meaning "from the grave".
Just think of the last remaining Jewish tinted deadenders now being punished by their refusal to recognise what all of us saw years ago. Lyn just gave them a lifetime sentence to serve a German Mad Woman .
Once again, Lyn spells out clearly to the deadenders and the LYM and LYMettes how you are to be viewed and treated by him. The method is to describe what is or will be done to someone else, when he really means you. Go back to day one of the LC and you will find that Lyn has always 100% sucessfully forecasted what he intends for the members. He no longer has Mount Ibykus, but Lyn does have LaroucheTown to say this to all of you:
""Behave yourself, and you will be tolerated, even, perhaps, accepted into our salons," is a typical reflection of the onset of a decadence which fore-shadows doom. "
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

09-02-2008, 10:37 PM

eaglebeak

Corrections, Gossip, and This 'n' That Correction

Quote:
Originally Posted by eaglebeak
I see today that Alexandria, VA lawyer Bill Moffitt is preparing to sue beleaguered Detroit Mayor Kwame Kilpatrick for the latter's failure to pay his bills, and for Kilpatrick's alleged conversion of Moffitt's unpaid work to his own use. Moffitt currently charges $550 an hour for his services.
Why should we care?
Well, those of you who have a copy of that absurdly titled book Railroad can go read up on the 1988 LaRouche Federal case and discover that Bill Moffitt was Mike Billington's lawyer in that one. (I think it was Mike—could have been Dennis Small. I don't have my "Railroad" in front of me. And there's a certain interchangeability there.)

Oops--turns out Billington's lawyer was James Clark. Moffitt was Dennis Small's lawyer. I guess I did get the two clean-cut, preppy-looking, dishonest, wife-dominating, money-boosting guys mixed up.
Meanwhile--more on those tapes: I mentioned recently that Billington taped himself making phone calls in which he claimed that the org had never had the slightest trouble repaying loans, and anyone who said otherwise was working for the FBI, Kissinger, whatever. And that those tapes were in the NCR in Leesburg when the October 1986 raid happened.... And so they wound up in the hands of the prosecutors.
Mike wasn't the only one. Rochelle--Shelley--Ascher made some tapes too, and they popped up in her Virginia state trial.
As someone in Legal said to me during the trials--"It was just like Watergate. The initial crime [in Boston--ed.] wasn't such a big deal, but by the time we'd finished with the coverup [including shipping several people out of the country for years, a federal crime--ed.], just like Watergate, we had a HUGE mess on our hands. And just like Watergate, we taped ourselves...." Gives you an idea of LaRouche's legal acumen, doesn't it?
And of course the ultimate crime, namely, the failure to repay tens of millions in loans, was something of a big deal.
Around Town

1. Seems as if Nancy Spannaus is still getting hand-me-downs from those more fortunate than she. With autumn almost here, and winter coming on, I'll bet she's getting ready to turn her thermostat to 50 (while Jeff and Michele head for the ski chalet).
2. Lyn spotted doing a little pre-celebrating of his birthday--Days of Wine and Rants, I guess. (Spotted is right. I guess they call those things age spots.) Eighty-six, and sharp as a tack.... Note his prediction that McCain would pick Bloomberg as his Veep. Right on the money! I'm just amazed by his prescience. Chortle.
The Mills of God grind slow, but they grind exceeding small.
3. Overheard at a recent gathering: "I can't believe Lyn supported Hillary. You should have HEARD the things he used to say about her! Even worse than the stuff he used to say about Molly!"
Don't let anyone tell you Lyn's threatened by determined women.... (And by the way, the "stuff he used to say about Molly" was all before Ken died. How do I know? Well, the former "leadership" person overheard saying this dropped out way before Ken died.)
4. One of the nicest Boomers in the org, handing out some fool leaflet or other on a street corner in Purcellville. And covered in the local paper, with his name and photo and all. Tragic, really. But what could he do, considering who his wife's co-worker comrades are?
5. On their way to Starbucks, two little old men--wait! It's Gerry Rose and Pierre Beaudry! Zounds! How time flies when you're having fun!
Gossip
I hear Molly Kronberg has been advised to write a book. And I hear she's interested in feedback.
Don't get any funny ideas, Barbara and Rick and all--if you know what I mean.
Meanwhile--as I remember, Molly always used to call Barbara "Babs." I think I'll start doing that.

09-02-2008, 11:38 PM

xlcr4life

Still working and working and working for free.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eaglebeak
Correction

4. One of the nicest Boomers in the org, handing out some fool leaflet or other on a street corner in Purcellville. And covered in the local paper, with his name and photo and all. Tragic, really. But what could he do, considering who his wife's co-worker comrades are?


You are right about this person being a nice person. He has so many friends who were hoping that he snapped out of the Bizarro World and get on with his life and take care of his family instead of the larouche family.
The section is found here on page 8
http://www.thepurcellvillegazette.com/d/archive/2008/August_15_2008.pdf
Whoa! The person who wrote this sure has a wicked sense of humour or is real lucky to use this hillarious headline.
LaRouche Supporter Still Working
"Purcellville resident Philip Ulanowski stood in the middle of the intersection of 287 and Business 7 early Saturday morning handing out materials highlighting information about the mistakes made, related to our economy, by the current administration. Lyndon LaRouche is a former Presidential candidate, and convicted felon for tax evasion, and is a long time resident of Loudoun County."

Phil U was Lyn's sommolier at Mount Ibykus for years. Lyn sure takes care of those who take care of him. C'mon Phil, there are so many other ways to do real work without standing out there in the hot sun and sucking in exhaust fumes for Lyn.
Phil U was also the LC photographer for years and put some big money into the LC.
Living off of those royalties for all your work son? You have talent, just get rid of the lunacy and place your family ahead of Lyn for a change.
Here is something for everyone (and you too Phil and Susan U) to get an estimate of just how much Lyn drains from people over decades of service.
http://laroucheplanet.info/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=Money.LaroucheSchacht
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

09-03-2008, 01:01 AM

poe

Clintons

Quote:
Originally Posted by eaglebeak
Correction

3. Overheard at a recent gathering: "I can't believe Lyn supported Hillary. You should have HEARD the things he used to say about her! Even worse than the stuff he used to say about Molly!"

I've mentioned here before that I remember reading an internal document sometime during the 90's where Lyn blamed Hillary for Bill not going with Lyn's New Bretton Woods. Hillary and Dick Morris. It blamed Dick Morris for everything President Clinton did wrong or didn't do right and pointed to Hillary as the reason for Dick Morris' influence on Clinton. I've tried to find it on the Web, but can't. Does anyone else remember that? I wish someone would post it.

09-03-2008, 05:18 PM

xlcr4life

The score : Lyn 281 million and Phil U. 0 I took another gander at the picture of phil U inhaling car fumes for Lyn and I am sure Phil U is proud of that picture. On so many levels that picture and title conveys many stories.
The title "Larouche supporter still working" accurately conveys the day to day heart break in seeing someone who deserves better and instead has spent three decades in the Bizarro world. Every penny and every second spent on behalf of Lyn instead of his kids is a crying shame. Who knows if they too will be sent to the LYM altar in Leesburg for Lyn in the future?
20 years ago Phil U was pouring Rhiengau into Lyn's glasses when Lyn erupted in anger with Phil U for being given a vintage unworthy if his status and meal. If you look at the picture closely, I think you can see the faint exhaust flume escaping the left rear tail pipe of the car in front of Phil U. Poor Phil has taken Lyn's belching, Helga's legendary beer farts and now, in the twilight of retirement, he takes car fumes for Lyn.
The sign on the A frame next to Phil is surreal by having the words "We need a new Bretton Woods". I say surreal because if I was driving by, I would think that this man is handing out flyers to a new development called "Bretton Woods" in Leesburg to rent or own . Laugh if you must, but there is a golf Country Club called "Bretton Woods" not too far from where Phil U is standing and shortening his life span for Lyn.
http://www.bwrc.org/
Phil U is also standing within a few miles of the real estate purchases we made and lost in the area. In Leesburg, there is a housing development called "Tavistock Farms" which has to make you think twice. Since the cult is big on a housing crash, maybe the sign is a clue for Phil U in some supernatural way .
Phil U could have left this lunacy a few years ago and saved up some money. Now he could buy a Manassas foreclosed townhouse right on Bretton Woods Drive for a mere $108,000 and maybe even lower with a low ball offer.
http://www.princewilliamexpert.com/MyHomeDtl.asp?lstPages=1&HomeID=766909
I have heard from so many people who had hopes that Phil U would leave the Bizarro World and are saddened how after three decades in the LC, he ends up like so many others who never quite figured out the whole charade and cruel joke played on them.
The new dollar total we have so far for Lyn's delusions, a sort of Gross Delusiuon Product is up to at least 281 Million Dollars and growing. Phil U has seen this money come and go while it never took a stop at his house. Fot that 281 million dollars, Phil U spends his day inhaling car fumes while at a web group, this is said about the cult.
" From: Edward.Wawrzyn...@gmail.com - view profile
Date: Fri, Aug 29 2008 7:20 pm
Email: Edward.Wawrzyn...@gmail.com
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"Problably one of those LaRouche douchebags touting the immiment US
economic collapse who hang out in front of post offices panhandling... "

Earlier, we had some posts about Webster being in the PUMA meeting in DC recently. I have to ask any people here who have LYM friends if there are any in the picture linked to this post. Go down and see the photos.
http://www.rumproast.com/index.php/site/comments/the_truth_about_puma_conference_08_you_cant_spell_conference_without_c_o_n/
Here is something prety interesting in seeing how Helga is positioning herself for the cult. Now is she in cahoots with Webster and fooling Lyn?
http://www.rumproast.com/index.php/site/comments/we_are_pumas_hear_us_laroarche_lyndon_larouche_supporters_pose_as_pumas_in/
We are PUMAs, hear us LaROARche: Lyndon LaRouche supporters pose as PUMAs in Berlin
Those silly, silly PUMAs have been roaring since Barack spoke in Berlin that there were PUMAs handing out anti-Obama leaflets at the event ("we are everywhere!"). The one thing they've consistently avoided mentioning when touting their newfound world domination is that the source for this information was Helga Zepp-LaRouche, wife of perennial presidential candidate and chief conspiracy crackpot Lyndon LaRouche. The story originated at the Lyndon LaRouche PAC web site:
Because what the misled teenagers on the Fan Mile along the way to the Victory Column apparently weren't aware of, is that many early Obama supporters in the United States now feel that they have been tricked: Obama's machine has replaced African-American regional party leaders with Establishment apparatchiks. Instead, a whole slew of new organizations have been springing up like mushrooms, demanding an open party convention, and the nomination of Hillary Clinton in an open roll-call vote.
In Berlin, supporters of one of these organizations, PUMA (Party Unity My Ass), were distributing leaflets calling for such an open party convention. Obama's security team confiscated the leaflets, not only from the PUMA organizers themselves, but also from any spectator who passed through the security gate, leaflet in hand. So much for Obama's oft-cited "change."
Now here's the kicker ... the folks distributing leaflets in Berlin weren't disaffected Democrats turned PUMAs, they were Lyndon Larouche supporters posing as PUMAs:
No large political gathering is complete without some of Lyndon LaRouche's followers. They were out in force distributing flyers with the headline "P.U.M.A.: Party Unity My Ass," accusing Nancy Pelosi and Howard Dean of subverting Hillary Clinton's presidential campaign.
Even though the article I referenced is from The American Spectator, it's a pretty even-keeled account of what went down that day. Regardless (it is the Spectator, after all), I decided to do a little more research and found my way to this article by Christian Science Monitor correspondent Jeffrey White at World Politics Review:
"We want an open convention, when the names of all major candidates are on the ballot," said Florian Metzler, 24, who passed out leaflets for a pro-Hillary Clinton group that wants to see the senator from New York's name still put to Democratic National Convention delegates next month.
"We also think Obama is not able to cope with the problems that we face in this world. Hillary Clinton is," he said.
Ladies and gentleman, I give you Florian Metzler, concerned Democrat:
First, we would like to thank Florian Metzler of the Berlin LaRouche Youth Movement. Without his assistance, we would not have been able to create the website you see here.
MORE: This isn't the first time CockLaRouches have posed as PUMAs, apparently with full approval of selected-not-elected PUMA head "10 Million Dollar" Will Bower.
RELATED: Both the American Spectator article and this diary version of White's article give a pretty clear indication of how the they-were-there-for-the-music-and-the-food meme being floated by wingnuts and PUMAs is utter hogwash. I got a chuckle outta this line:
Later a live band called Raymond [sic] took the stage. Simon Gierke, 27, a native of Hamburg, commented, "They are the worst band ever to come out of Germany."
Posted by Kevin K. on 07/28/08 at 10:09 AM • Permalink

Categories: Politics • Election '08 • Barack Obama • Hillary Clinton • Manchurian Wingnuts • Skull Hampers •

"CockLaRouches"—LOL!—and 9/11 Truthers. Perhaps PUMA can form an alliance with the Flat Earth Society to inflate their numbers even further. The Hale-Bopp comet cultists would have fit right in, but alas, they've already completed their mass cult suicide…
Comment by Betty Cracker on 07/28/08 at 12:28 PM
Wow, just, wow.
Comment by John Cain on 07/28/08 at 12:49 PM
"They are the worst band ever to come out of Germany."
Ouch. That's funny, because there's a long list.
Comment by HumboldtBlue on 07/28/08 at 01:27 PM
This is so wacky. I was at Obama's speech and saw oodles of hard-working Democrats in Berlin registering expat voters. I missed the alleged PUMAs. But I know LaRouche has a visible following in Germany thanks to his charming wife.
Oh, and the bands really were mediocre. No one in my vicinity was psyched about them; several people were outright annoyed.
Comment by Sungold on 07/28/08 at 06:57 PM
"First, we would like to thank Florian Metzler of the Berlin LaRouche Youth Movement..."
Zat anything like the Berlin Hitler Youth Movement?

xlcr4life@hotmail.com

09-03-2008, 09:26 PM

boomersage

Miscellany Friends and neighbors, if you don't look at the LaRouche PAC Web site once in a while, you are missing some good ones. A few examples: highly tendentious selections of factoids, suitably spun and missing 85% of what's actually happening, to show that the LHL's latest imaginary soul-mate (Medvedev, HRC, Mugabe, the emergent China-India-Russia alliance for humanity, whoever) is the innocent victim of far-flung wrongdoing and personally innocent of any fault; LHL's occasional proclamations that noted political figure A or B is "clinically insane" (A or B are assuredly sometimes wrong about things, including important ones, but clinically insane they're clearly not); the latest bete-noire-du-jour, and how he's behind Practically Everything Nefarious in the World; and, my personal fave, LHL's magnanimous demands that "cooler heads prevail" in certain explosive world hot-spots, most recently Pakistan (no hint that the irony is intended).
Oh yes, and just so no one wastes his/her time on following the current presidential campaign, please be informed that the US election scheduled for November actually won't be held.

09-04-2008, 06:00 PM

eaglebeak

Were You Ever Right!

Boy, you're so right, boomersage! I just logged onto LPAC for a few minutes and hit the mother lode (or load).
First, there's the now-renamed LaRouche PAC Weekly Update—no longer the Steinberg Report, you will perceive. The great thing about it is it now features John Hoefle along with Jeff Steinberg—two geniuses for the price of one. This week also features hilarious images of John and Jeff. Great Balls of Fire! Would you buy a used "world news roundup" from these people? http://www.larouchepac.com/news/2008/09/03/jeff-steinberg-and-john-hoefles-weekly-political-overview.html
Second, I notice Lyn's bizarrely titled "In Effect, There is Virtually No Candidate." (Try parsing that one. And never mind Lyn ranting in the back of your mind that parsing is a fascist exercise imposed on you by the New York Times and the Modern Languages Association. Parsing is a question of intelligibility, really. You can't always be a slob, Lyn, and then claim it's a metaphor, an ambiguity, a plasma, a density, a thought-object, a ….. Or can you?)
Anyhow, aside from the hilarious title, there's Lyn's equally hilarious phrase about the "serried ranks of some Buppies and Boomers…." For commentary on that usage, I defer to Allan Little of BBC http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/radio_newsroom/1715604.stm
Best of all, though, and this is something that Allan Little can't help with, is the claptrap in the last two paragraphs. I give you:
"As usual, when I am abroad for a few weeks, there has been a bit of an emotional breakdown in places such as Leesburg. Don't let that discourage you; it happens regularly, and we have always survived such fits by the usual suspects before. In the meantime, we shall continue to do our job, and pay little attention to the perenniel [sic] gaggle of silly gossips.
"Many things are about to change, and that more or less profoundly, very, very soon."
Where to begin? With the fond and foolish notion that people crack up when he leaves town? Au contraire, they crack up when he comes back.
Or perhaps it's the comment that emotional breakdowns happen "regularly" in the LaRouche cult, and "we have always survived such fits by the usual suspects before." Depends what your definition of "survives" is, I guess. And let me point out that whatever emotional breakdown Ken Kronberg underwent at the hands of Lyndon LaRouche, Ken did not survive. But do you think that signifies to Lyn?
Not to worry, they are going to continue to do their job, whatever that is, and they will hold their heads high above the "perenniel" (misspelled, but the interesting thing is he's saying these malcontents don't go away) "gaggle of silly gossips" (that would be the people who are disgruntled, discontented, or maybe even DISAPPROVING).
Besides, many things are about that change, and that profoundly (more or less profoundly) soon soon soon. Looking into the bowels of thermonuclear hell again, Lyn?
Or into the Abyss?
The old boy is 86 now, or "very, very soon." That profound (more rather than less) change that overtakes us all, is stalking him, to reach its goal "very, very soon."

09-04-2008, 08:05 PM

xlcr4life

1 Attachment(s)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ’‘‘boomersage'''
Friends and neighbors, if you don't look at the LaRouche PAC Web site once in a while, you are missing some good ones.

You are so right boomersage. One I read a few days ago had Lyn directing people via orders to the LYM, the Dem Party and "citizens". As soon as I read that I began to think of that great movie "Arsenic and Old Lace" where Lyn would make a great Teddy Roosevelt in living his delusions. In the newer version you could have Babs and Debbie Freeman living in LaroucheTown while Lyn is in the basement believing that he is Franklin instead of Teddy Roosevelt. Wait, that may be what is going on right now as we speak. Down the road we could have a clueless brother handing out Kinko made flyers at the intersection of 287 and the 7 bypass.
We have a picture below and a link to the map . Just go to the right of the map where 287 meets 7 and magnify it to see the best spot to inhale car fumes for Lyn.
http://loudoun.vhost.vipnet.org/lcpl/purcellville/purmap.htm
Now take a look at this blurb and see if Lyn is thinking that he is missing out on some money here.
http://www.larouchepac.com/news/2008/08/30/new-bretton-woods-russias-role-recovery.html
"NEW BRETTON WOODS:
Russia's Role in a Recovery[1]
by Lyndon H. LaRouche, Jr.
August 20, 2008
+—————————————————
A fraudulent representation of the Franklin Roosevelt Bretton Woods system was recently launched at Modena, Italy, by a pair of seasoned turncoats, Jonathan Tennenbaum and Paolo Raimondi. The targets of their fully intended fraud included both important Russian scientists and notable Italian political figures. That pair of hoaxsters, who had gone over to the proverbial "other side" during recent years, represented a small, London-oriented circle of hoaxsters which have put themselves out for sale in search of hire and fame to be supplied by British Euro-oligarchical intelligence circles. The method by which that pair of hoaxsters perpetrated their fraud on the Russian and other guests, was passing themselves off, flagrantly, by representing themselves as being currently associated with me.
A significant number of participants in that Modena event have since expressed shock at discovering that fraud perpetrated upon them by the particular rascals Tennenbaum and Raimondi. The following report will serve, hopefully, as some compensation to them for the embarrassment which they suffered at the hands of that pair of hoaxsters."

It is hard to tell who is doing what to whom here. Has the Euro LC spin off booted Lyn and Helga out the door to persue their own work or is Helga running a side show of her own is something else goinfg on here.
Here is the Salon version which should make Lyn nervous. All Jeff needs is a few LYM computer talents and a plan to suck every file and contact out of the main computer and go into business for himself without crazy Lyn being the albatross to HIS sales team.
http://www.solon-line.de/modena-init...-finances.html
Maybe Lyn needs to order Zeke to Germany and have the LYM "Mop Up" Salon in Weisbaden if this continues.
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

09-04-2008, 08:25 PM

boomersage

Venom, vituperation and vitriol The mentality of the Manichean sect always, always, always reserves its most intense and personalized abuse for those whose views actually run somewhat close to its own but who don't deign before the same organizational gods, most especially for apostates. True of leftist sects through the ages, true of many religious cults and their schismatic spinoffs, maybe also true of right wing sects but I'm less familiar.

09-04-2008, 10:02 PM

boomersage

And another thing . . .

I sometimes hate to point to the nonsensicality, or wild self-contradictions, in LHL's statements, because it tends to imply that things you don't point to make some sort of sense -- which they often do not. But hey, sometimes the goof-o-meter just jumps goes wild and you feel like saying something.
So LaRouche's latest screed on the Modena duo begins with some reference to FDR's Bretton Woods system. Well, FDR most certainly did play a key role in those events. But the single most important architect of BW of course was JM Keynes, who LaRouche frequently, and recently (though, as I remember, not consistently), has called a fascist or something very close or equivalent.
I've only read a smattering of Keynes, but to the extent LHL has ever written anything reasonable or sensible about economics -- and aside from his hysterically hyperbolic hoo-ha, he has at times, such as fairly sensible things of long ago that drew most of us to the Org -- you'll find much or even most of this in Keynes.

09-05-2008, 12:48 AM

poe

Competition for Factnet?

Quote:
Originally Posted by eaglebeak
Boy, you're so right, boomersage! I just logged onto LPAC for a few minutes and hit the mother lode (or load).
First, there's the now-renamed LaRouche PAC Weekly Update—no longer the Steinberg Report, you will perceive. The great thing about it is it now features John Hoefle along with Jeff Steinberg—two geniuses for the price of one. This week also features hilarious images of John and Jeff. Great Balls of Fire! Would you buy a used "world news roundup" from these people? http://www.larouchepac.com/news/2008...-overview.html
Second, I notice Lyn's bizarrely titled "In Effect, There is Virtually No Candidate." (Try parsing that one. And never mind Lyn ranting in the back of your mind that parsing is a fascist exercise imposed on you by the New York Times and the Modern Languages Association. Parsing is a question of intelligibility, really. You can't always be a slob, Lyn, and then claim it's a metaphor, an ambiguity, a plasma, a density, a thought-object, a ….. Or can you?)
Anyhow, aside from the hilarious title, there's Lyn's equally hilarious phrase about the "serried ranks of some Buppies and Boomers…." For commentary on that usage, I defer to Allan Little of BBC http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programme...om/1715604.stm
Best of all, though, and this is something that Allan Little can't help with, is the claptrap in the last two paragraphs. I give you:
"As usual, when I am abroad for a few weeks, there has been a bit of an emotional breakdown in places such as Leesburg. Don't let that discourage you; it happens regularly, and we have always survived such fits by the usual suspects before. In the meantime, we shall continue to do our job, and pay little attention to the perenniel [sic] gaggle of silly gossips.
"Many things are about to change, and that more or less profoundly, very, very soon."


That memo can't possibly have been meant for public distribution. It seems as if LaRouchePac.Com is trying to take over Factnet's job of posting embarrassing internal documents on the Web. I guess that's what happens when there is no adult supervision.

09-05-2008, 01:51 AM

poe

Solon Solon's take on Obama makes a lot of sense to me.
http://www.solon-line.de/obama-gorbi-and-fannie-mae.html
It sounds like what I would have expected LaRouche's position about him to be.

09-05-2008, 04:02 AM

borisbad

boomersage is absolutely right. Other than the fact that FDR promoted the agreement the foundation was pure free trade principles that created the IMF and the International Bank for Reconstruction and Development. Perhaps LaRouche liked the term since he once proposed his International Development Bank but the IBRD was the predecessor for the World Bank. So the two institutions that LaRouche has attacked for three decades were outgrowths of the Bretton Woods System. And boomersage is also right about Keynes involvement.
Considering LaRouche also talks about economic nationalism, protectionism and the so-called "American System of Economics" perhaps he should have looked a little bit more deeply into what Bretton Woods actually represented. The only key point that it had consistent with LaRouche was the fixed rate for monetary exchange. I found an interesting site on Bretton Woods at the State Dept. web site. Just goes to show how illiterate LaRouche really is.
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/time/wwii/98681.htm

09-06-2008, 01:40 AM

localgreek

Quote:
Originally Posted by eaglebeak
Correction

selves...." Gives you an idea of LaRouche's legal acumen, doesn't it?
And of course the ultimate crime, namely, the failure to repay tens of millions in loans, was something of a big deal.
Around Town

1. Seems as if Nancy Spannaus is still getting hand-me-downs from those more fortunate than she. With autumn almost here, and winter coming on, I'll bet she's getting ready to turn her thermostat to 50 (while Jeff and Michele head for the ski chalet).
2. Lyn spotted doing a little pre-celebrating of his birthday--Days of Wine and Rants, I guess. (Spotted is right. I guess they call those things age spots.) Eighty-six, and sharp as a tack.... Note his prediction that McCain would pick Bloomberg as his Veep. Right on the money! I'm just amazed by his prescience. Chortle.
The Mills of God grind slow, but they grind exceeding small.
3. Overheard at a recent gathering: "I can't believe Lyn supported Hillary. You should have HEARD the things he used to say about her! Even worse than the stuff he used to say about Molly!"
Don't let anyone tell you Lyn's threatened by determined women.... (And by the way, the "stuff he used to say about Molly" was all before Ken died. How do I know? Well, the former "leadership" person overheard saying this dropped out way before Ken died.)
4. One of the nicest Boomers in the org, handing out some fool leaflet or other on a street corner in Purcellville. And covered in the local paper, with his name and photo and all. Tragic, really. But what could he do, considering who his wife's co-worker comrades are?
5. On their way to Starbucks, two little old men--wait! It's Gerry Rose and Pierre Beaudry! Zounds! How time flies when you're having fun!
Gossip
I hear Molly Kronberg has been advised to write a book. And I hear she's interested in feedback.
Don't get any funny ideas, Barbara and Rick and all--if you know what I mean.
Meanwhile--as I remember, Molly always used to call Barbara "Babs." I think I'll start doing that.

+----------------------
Localgreek: The idea of Molly Kronberg writing a book is brilliant. I can just imagine the piece; I can imagine the talk shows she would get on; I seriously think she ought to go for it. It might be useful to talk to Dennis King, regardless whether she agrees with him or not. The point is he would be able to give advice about publishing. She would need a good publisher and a good editior, or would need to work with an editor, in order to make a good gripping book. Perhaps she can do this on her own; I do not know her at all; but talking to potential publishers is important too. I would be the first to buy such a book. This is a good proactive idea. She would, however, have to open up her privacy to come extent. But I cannot think of a better exit present for LL.
I was very interested in Eaglebeak's postings about people in the cult. More details would be very welcome to an outsider like myself. Why is Nancy Spannus wearing hand me downs; is her pay so miserable that she cannot even shop at Walmart or Target? I have seen her name on newspapers for decades. What is her mental state? Why are Jeff and Michele well-off? How do they manage this?
Who are Gerry Rose and Pierre Beaudry in the organization? Drinking coffee at Starbuck's can set you back fifteen or twenty bucks for the two, especially if you add in cheesecake. Are these eites? I did see the name Beaudy connected to a strong critique of Rohatyn. These folks have to have bogeymen, and devils, don't they. Who is Gerry Rose? I gather they have been in the org. for decades. They must have wives and children? Are they mentally sound? Are they powerful in the org.?
Keep on writing about individuals. Very interesting; I'd love to see a sort of LL tree, the hierarchy and a who is who of the org. And these millions in loans, loans from whom?

09-06-2008, 04:35 PM

poe

Quote:
Originally Posted by borismaglev
The old man has an opinion about everything, and I mean everything: astrophysics, paleoanthropology, linguistics, poetry, music of course, quantum theory and relativity, every facet of human history, every intrigue of every secret service in the world since Pythagoras was a spymaster for the temple of Amon, the reason why yoghurt is evil, all the inside stories on and off Capitol Hill, the secrets of his buddies in the secret American elite, the evil conspiracies of Skull and Bones, how Cheney destroyed the Twin Towers, British intrigues to impose Bloomberg's fascism, every recess of Soros's intiguing evil mind. An opinion about everything. Except one thing: he hasn't said a word about Sarah Palin for eight days now since her emergence on the national stage. Any theories why?
I had been with LaRouche from way back, when I knew him as Lyn Marcus and had no idea that his real name was LaRouche, and have heard or read his every utterance (including many of his not-for-publication Tischspraeche) to this day and I do not recall ANY instance that he did not have a ready opinion and ajuste mot about EVERY current event in the world and especially in the United States. And now comes this elephant in the room, Sarah Palin, and he is quiet for eight whole days. WHAT IS GOING ON?

http://www.larouchepub.com/other/2008/3535lpac_takes_leadership.html

09-06-2008, 04:51 PM

poe

Quote:
Originally Posted by borismaglev
The old man has an opinion about everything, and I mean everything: astrophysics, paleoanthropology, linguistics, poetry, music of course, quantum theory and relativity, every facet of human history, every intrigue of every secret service in the world since Pythagoras was a spymaster for the temple of Amon, the reason why yoghurt is evil, all the inside stories on and off Capitol Hill, the secrets of his buddies in the secret American elite, the evil conspiracies of Skull and Bones, how Cheney destroyed the Twin Towers, British intrigues to impose Bloomberg's fascism, every recess of Soros's intiguing evil mind. An opinion about everything. Except one thing: he hasn't said a word about Sarah Palin for eight days now since her emergence on the national stage. Any theories why?
I had been with LaRouche from way back, when I knew him as Lyn Marcus and had no idea that his real name was LaRouche, and have heard or read his every utterance (including many of his not-for-publication Tischspraeche) to this day and I do not recall ANY instance that he did not have a ready opinion and ajuste mot about EVERY current event in the world and especially in the United States. And now comes this elephant in the room, Sarah Palin, and he is quiet for eight whole days. WHAT IS GOING ON?

He mentions her here too:
http://www.larouchepac.com/news/2008/09/02/effect-there-virtually-no-candidate.html

Quote:

Meanwhile, Senator McCain's virtual breakdown in accepting the Governor of Alaska as a stand-in for the Senator Lieberman whom he really wanted, combined with the effect of several factors on the Obama candidacy, means, that, as of this moment, it is probable that neither will be a standing candidate come November. Gustav came as a welcome excuse for many Republicans' non- attendance at this week's opening of the nominating convention. Of course, nothing is certain, except chaos, unless we become lucky and get an option I would prefer.
British thuggery pushed Hillary out, but it also wrecked the Democratic Party's likelihood of winning the election.

09-06-2008, 05:06 PM

xlcr4life

Quote:
Originally Posted by borismaglev
The old man has an opinion about everything, and I mean everything: astrophysics, paleoanthropology, linguistics, poetry, music of course, quantum theory and relativity, every facet of human history, every intrigue of every secret service in the world since Pythagoras was a spymaster for the temple of Amon, the reason why yoghurt is evil, all the inside stories on and off Capitol Hill, the secrets of his buddies in the secret American elite, the evil conspiracies of Skull and Bones, how Cheney destroyed the Twin Towers, British intrigues to impose Bloomberg's fascism, every recess of Soros's intiguing evil mind. An opinion about everything. Except one thing: he hasn't said a word about Sarah Palin for eight days now since her emergence on the national stage. Any theories why?
[. WHAT IS GOING ON?[/B]

What is going on is that Lyn's delusions are running overtime as he spins out one cheap parlor trick after another to the last remaining deadeners, LYM and LYMettes. I read all of Lyn's LPAC musings and they are at best repeats of previous election cycle LC morale boosters AFTER he was soundly rejected by the globe. If Lyn was running you would have a speech on how we did win, but vote fraud kept Lyn out of the picture. What Lyn has done in the past is what he is doing now. The speeches and LPAC fumes are for internal consumption. The cheap parlor trick is set the LC/LYM up in a fantasy world where they will have some magical powers , far beyond mortal men, to "influence" who ever wins. In this cheap parlor trick, it makes no difference who wins since both candidates and parties are inferior to the geniuses who view Lyn as a genius. In one Lpac release Lyn covers his bet on McCain while still being able to claim to be a Dem via Hillary.
Lyn can set up McCain as being the good, yet simple minded president who will be dragged down my Palin while Obama will be dragged down by Al Gore as he claims to be running both Hillary and Carville from LaroucheTown.
Over riding this is the usual nightmares concocted by Lyn for the naive with virtually the same lines being recycled as I read them. This pretty much makes the LYM and LYMettes work around the clock for another presidential term, gives them delusions that standing at the corner of 287 and the 7 bypass in a town of a few thousand with Kinko leafletts means something and contnues this never ending fantasy game.
BorisMaglev Remember when you wrote this?
"Hey, don't underestimate the old man. When asked why Obama should be considered more experienced than Palin, Obama's supporters say that "he ran a presidential campaign." I'm here to tell you that nobody has run more presidential campaigns than LaRouche."
To show you how delusionary mentation is a comunicable disease, we find out that the Wall Street Journal had a small blurb which actually had that theme. That article then appeared in numerous blogs and web sites around the couuntry . You and I know that this is all a goof on Lyn after he spent 281 million dollars so far on his PR and vanity presses.
But, do the LYM and LYMettes know that this was a goof with Lyn being the punchline?
Consider this amazing post by a probable LYMette in the Chicago Daily Observor which appeared here.
http://cdobs.com/archive/blogs/larouches-qualifications-for-presdent,1646/

LaRouche's Qualifications for Presdent
By James Taranto, Wall Street Journal
Posted in From Blogs on September 03, 2008 with 2 comments.
tags: Media Obama
John McCain's choice of Sarah Palin as his running mate is a bit awkward for Barack Obama. He would like to argue that she is too inexperienced, but that underscores his own deficit of experience. Time magazine notes that in a CNN interview, Obama tried to argue that he should get credit for his time as a candidate:
Obama: Well, my understanding is that Gov. Palin's town of Wasilla has I think 50 employees. We've got 2,500 in this campaign. I think their budget is maybe $12 million a year. You know, we have a budget of about three times that just for the month. So I think that our ability to manage large systems and to execute I think has been made clear over the last couple of years.
By this standard, if you've been unemployed for five years but spent the time sending out résumés and job applications, you get credit for five years' experience in the workplace. And the most qualified man in America to be president is Lyndon LaRouche.

Read More of LaRouche's Qualifications for Presdent off-site...
Commentary:
1
Margaret says:
Well, whether you like it or not, Mr. Taranto, you're quite right! Mr. LaRouche IS the most qualified to be President, but unfortunately, he's too old, and the media is too corrupt, and Wall Street and it's British backers don't want an FDR type genius who loves mankind in the White House. After all, the ability of speculators to contine to enrich themselves by stealing and looting and gambling is eminently threatened by the likes of LaRouche, and the specter of FDR.
Hopefully, we can save the nation despite the lack of qualified presidential candidates currently in the running.
September 4, 2008 at 8:55 p.m.
2
Lyn Marcus says:
Holy smokes Margaret, the Larouche cult really is bat sh*t Crazy to not see what is obviously a joke in that column.
The Larouche cult is down to a few college drop outs who obviously dropped out of basic English class.
Speaking of corruption Margaret, how much of the 30 million dollars that was stolen by the cult and Larouche has been paid back ? Your cult has had over 25 years to make ammends. Larouche is the convicted felon who has been running a cult of comedy for 40 + years by using a basic formula of having a never ending apacolytpic collapse, thermonuclear war threats or a New Dark Ages, always involving The Jews of course for the gullible and naive.
To see what the cult is up to as Larouche prepares the koolaid in LarouchTown, please check out these sites.
laroucheplanet.info
http://kenkronberg.com
http://justiceforjeremiah.com
http://lyndonlarouchewatch.org
http://factnet.org ....look under "social discussions" for 5K of posts about this lunacy.
Margaret, It is never too late to come to your senses and leave a cult like this. This cult/con man has spent 281 million dollars so far on his delusions.
September 5, 2008 at 7:16 a.m.
Post a comment

Lyn is correct that the British have targetted him . Monty Pythonesque humour has taken over the remains.
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

09-06-2008, 07:58 PM

xlcr4life

Quote:
Originally Posted by borismaglev
We definitely have total radio silence on LaRouche's opinion of Palin. Don't you find it unique?

This may be due to trying to figure out the upside for calling Palin supporters via the boiler rooms. If you take the WABAC machine to 1979 rememebr that one of the first big fundraising lists we began to boil was composed of Western State supporters of Reagan and people in the oil and gas business.
Palin fits the description of what we used to call.
YAHOOS
Those people were fed a steady diet of anti Trilat, CFR and Bilderberger material as we millked them monthly.
AFTER Reagan won the 1980 election, we created another hat to wear in the boiler rooms based on the RTL supporters . Lyn ran as a Dem who spent millions trying to screw Dems while we were calling up right wing lists to give us money to "defend Reagan" from the Dems and the KGB.
If the Salon crowd takes over the Russian franchise from Lyn, I would expect the Russians to be dropped , become Lyn's latest enemy as the cult battles Al Gore, Obama and Soros in another concoction of delusions before the final exit

BTW, the cult has some naive Alaskan former Governor, Walter Hickel who shares a podium with them on the Russian - Alaska Maglev .
This makes me think of my exit advisor who used to always mention how the cult can attract former nobodies while the checks do not bounce.
http://www.schillerinstitute.org/hig...in_invite.html
The cult can go with Palin if it thought it could get Pro Life money, which is doubtfull. I suspect that they could make Palin the enemy of the Alaska Maglev and use that to create a frenzy with the remaining LYM and LYMettes. You do not want LYM and LYMettes going to Church instead of Lyn's basement for forgiveness and a prayer for a future.

xlcr4life@hotmail.com

09-06-2008, 10:15 PM

howie

I note that the two "Larouchism without Larcouhe" sources, solon -- I can't quite come up with an opinion on them -- and Webster Tarpley -- conman and confidence man and charlatan -- have opined on the Joseph Biden selection, with what would make the logical sense for Larouche's line and Biden's financial backing are in Larouche's wheel-house (to quote The Onion, "Hey! He's from where my credit card comes from!") A google-search of "Larouche" and "Biden" shows that this steps on past lines -- something about Biden's willingness to impeach versus Obam's Soros backed opposition to same.
I assumed that the relative lack of movement with the presidential contest's developments either were a sign of crumbling Larouche Organization Infrastructure or an uncertainty in how to proceed, or a Larouche focus -- as with new videos to be posted online -- on the past as he prepares to bid us all well goodbye.

09-07-2008, 12:45 AM

localgreek

who will pay?

Quote:
Originally Posted by howie
I assumed that the relative lack of movement with the presidential contest's developments either were a sign of crumbling Larouche Organization Infrastructure or an uncertainty in how to proceed, or a Larouche focus -- as with new videos to be posted online -- on the past as he prepares to bid us all well goodbye.

==================
localgreek: who will pay for the broken lives? who will pay for this? who will pay to the parents who are shattered by what has happened to their children? who will pay the old parents who see their geriatric children like some kind of spiritual cripples going to their own graves? who will pay for this madness? for this sadism? for this destruction?
Those here are the lucky and smart ones.
I want to know how is it that he is making his exit so easily, so smoothly. I sure wish that Molly gets that book written real fast; folks here can help here; there is lots of talent here. This is a project to embark upon and fast. Nothing would be more wonderful than to have this done before the exit.

09-07-2008, 05:26 PM

poe

Quote:
Originally Posted by howie
I note that the two "Larouchism without Larcouhe" sources, solon -- I can't quite come up with an opinion on them -- and Webster Tarpley -- conman and confidence man and charlatan -- have opined on the Joseph Biden selection, with what would make the logical sense for Larouche's line and Biden's financial backing are in Larouche's wheel-house (to quote The Onion, "Hey! He's from where my credit card comes from!") A google-search of "Larouche" and "Biden" shows that this steps on past lines -- something about Biden's willingness to impeach versus Obam's Soros backed opposition to same.


At first I thought Tarpley might have been working with the Europeans, but Mike Leibig's Solon pieice mentions Zbigniew Brzezinski in an almost positive way, whereas, according to Tarpley, Zbig and his sons are the evil geniuses controlling Obama, McCain, and Condoleezza Rice, and leading us all toward World War III.

09-07-2008, 05:37 PM

howie

I am not nor have ever been involved in any Larouchian activity, and was once castigated hereabouts for basically looking at this as "a rare species of exotic floral." I would have to shift through to see who is still here, but the Robert Beltran fan (sorry, I forget both the name and the nomdeplome) was never a member.

09-07-2008, 08:56 PM

localgreek

[QUOTE=borismaglev;363961]

Quote:
Originally Posted by localgreek;
Localgreek, the only lucky one on this forum is you. As far as I can tell, you are the only one here who has not been a member of the cult. The rest of us who were members, we are still paying for the misdeeds we committed, just like those who are still in the cult as paying for the misdeeds they are still committing. And if you think about it for a minute, LaRouche in the self-made private hell of his inner life is already in the flames of hell. There is such perfect proportion in the distribution of justice here if you think about it.
And the parents? I wonder whether their anguish and pain is not some payment for their own past misdeeds. I am privileged to have known as a fact that the vast majority of people who joined the cult were initially motivated to join by deep-seated problems with their parents. Parenting gone awry was the single largest cause that drove so many people into the clutches of this madman.

+========================
localgreek: granted, the hell of his inner life must be intense but it is now conmingled with senility; I am afraid, I still believe that some kind of legal sanction would be better, in addition to what you describe. Too many young people have been ruined, and old ones too. If Molly could get a book out, that would be fabulous. I hope she is getting encouragement from the talented folks here, as well as from other circles.
As for the parents, well, you say a payment for the parents' own misdeeds. This becomes very very complicated. Misdeeds to the chilren? misdeeds in their youth? very complex all this. If you speak of parenting gone awry, well this is interesting. Of the three individuals I know in the cult, all have several siblings, and not one of the siblings is abnormal; all have excellent professions and jobs. Yet, they all grew up in the same households.
The problem of why someone gets sucked into this is complex and not clear to me, for we all have an innate sense of self-preservation, and self-preservation is anathema to LL. He despises the 'self' of the 'other' and loves only himsel.
Furthermore, I also think that children when they come to a certain age, owe it to try and understand their parents. You and I are likely war/post-war children. This was a very difficult period for our parents' generation. I do not know your ethnic background, perhaps your family suffered greatly; or the grandparents, this lingers on and sometimes post traumatic sresses are handed down. I think we ought to examine our parents and try to understand their hell, and then help ourself overcome our emotional wounds. Alice Miller the great psychiatrist (writes in German--translations in Engl are numerous, she is Austrian, if I am not mistaken) says that if a child has at least one person in their life when they are growing up that provides moral and emotional support than the child usually has a chance of making it; this can be a teacher, a grandparent, whoever, doesn't have to be a parent. I hope that you had this in your life.
Parently goes awry for many reasons, trauma, historical circumstances, economic. It helps to construct a narrative for yourself to try to understand what happened to the parent so that the parent behaved badly; the narrative cannot be complete but if it is even partial this helps to release some of the injury.
On another note, I was thinking that it might be interesting to have for a few posts, say one topic about the cult, and to have members here write; for instance: recruitment, how this took place; ego-stripping; breaking the bond with family, work situations, abuse, etc. etc. This might be helpful to compile this all together and then Laroucheplanet could post this. Just a thought.
The other thing is I stumbled into this so by accident; I look up LL about once a year, sometimes only every three years to find out what is new, and when I punched in his name on google I found laroucheplanet and then read that and then pressed th button for Kronberg and then the factnet link. I wish more relatives of members could be brought on board; I also wish that more former members would also write.

09-07-2008, 10:32 PM

laroucheplanet

Quote:
Originally Posted by localgreek

The problem of why someone gets sucked into this is complex and not clear to me, for we all have an innate sense of self-preservation, and self-preservation is anathema to LL. He despises the 'self' of the 'other' and loves only himsel.
(...)
On another note, I was thinking that it might be interesting to have for a few posts, say one topic about the cult, and to have members here write; for instance: recruitment, how this took place; ego-stripping; breaking the bond with family, work situations, abuse, etc. etc. This might be helpful to compile this all together and then Laroucheplanet could post this. Just a thought.

To better understand how someone gets sucked into a cult I would advice to read Steven Hassan's books. Hassan has the unfortunate privilege to be an ex-cult member and understands better than a "regular" psy the strange mechanism at work.
We have started to apply at this page Hassan's B.I.T.E. model (Behavior Control, Information Control, Thought Control, Emotional Control) to assess a cult. It does apply quite well to larouche.
Any more comments to improve this page are welcome.
We also need more information regarding their present and past finances. What are today's quotas? in the '90s?, how many members? We have some rough estimates but more accurate info will be very useful.
This will eventually be published on LarouchePlanet.
Here are some new documents (transcripts) from the Alexandria trial:
Opening Statements Transcript of a Bench Conference and the testimony of Witness William Offutt Transcript of verdict proceedings Memorandum in support of Motion of Defendants Larouche et al Closing Arguments http://laroucheplanet.info/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=Money.BenchConference
Timeline LANDEGGER, BARDWELL ET AL. TESTIMONIES http://laroucheplanet.info/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=Money.LandeggerBardwell

Have fun.:D
Thanks.

09-08-2008, 04:08 PM

borisbad

If anyone is interested in a presentation of modern particle physics for the layperson that is 100 times more effective than the primitive animations of LYM or Bruce Director's classes I invite them to check out the following at youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j50ZssEojtM

09-08-2008, 08:43 PM

poe

Bite

Quote:
Originally Posted by laroucheplanet
To better understand how someone gets sucked into a cult I would advice to read Steven Hassan's books. Hassan has the unfortunate privilege to be an ex-cult member and understands better than a "regular" psy the strange mechanism at work.
We have started to apply at this page Hassan's B.I.T.E. model (Behavior Control, Information Control, Thought Control, Emotional Control) to assess a cult. It does apply quite well to larouche.


Based on that criteria, (Behavior Control, Information Control, Thought Control, Emotional Control) , wouldn't the United States Army be a cult?

09-08-2008, 09:08 PM

boomer70

Quote:
Originally Posted by poe
Based on that criteria, (Behavior Control, Information Control, Thought Control, Emotional Control) , wouldn't the United States Army be a cult?

and? well, at least the military caste is more liberal about associating with outsiders, but that's about the only difference i can see. the basic purpose of boot camp for example is to destroy the recruit's idea of himself and create a new one to milspec.

09-08-2008, 11:20 PM

shadok

2 Attachment(s)

Quote:
Originally Posted by poe
Based on that criteria, (Behavior Control, Information Control, Thought Control, Emotional Control) , wouldn't the United States Army be a cult?

Good point. Put a Guru or Fuhrer as head of say, the U.S. Army and yes you have it. Think of "Apocalypse Now" and Colonel Kurtz for instance... it gives an interesting angle to understand the parallels between Cults and military/fascist dictatorships.
Attached EIR "1986: Paradigm Shift" cover pic of Janice Hart.
Here is what The Time wrote then:

Quote:

Hart's attorney said she was unable to appear in court last week because she was in West Germany "campaigning for patriots" in that country's upcoming parliamentary elections. Hart garnered attention earlier this spring by leading an anti-drug parade through Chicago's Loop. She rode the streets in a 1942 armored vehicle with Robert Patton, a LaRouchite Senate candidate in New Hampshire.
From Larouche's Tangled Web http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,961572,00.html?iid=chix-sphere

The "German Patriots" in question were Helga's "Patriots for Germany" full of ex-members of the Wehrmacht...
Janice announced publicly that "We're going to roll our tanks down State Street." Yep, she did it and this was a U.S. Army armored vehicle with Lartouchies inside...
What was extraordinary is how swift after Larouche's Illinois "victory" we were ready to show our cards...
Creepy ;-).

09-09-2008, 12:22 AM

eaglebeak

Eek, Shriek, and Geek

Anyone who ever knew the Kronbergs will recognize those words....
But that's not my point here.
Yikes. What is going on, on the front page of the LaRouche PAC site? Who's in charge of the photo picks?
Boy, when Ken Kronberg ran the production process, they wouldn't have had such moronic graphics….
And when Editorial included Linda F and Molly Kronberg (no reason not to use her full name) and Christina H and Nora H and Don B and Vin B and Robyn Q (and even Lonnie W)—in those days, the products weren't so utterly pathetic.
But today, with the combination of Battered Boomers (that's would be Nancy) and feckless youth (LYMers and LYMettes), the net result is … ARGH.
Here's what we see today:
We have the little photo of Helga with her hennaed hair, grinning by the Sign Helga's Petition snippet.
We have the uproarious, hilarious, Gyro Gearloose photo of Lyn from some time in the very distant past, with his hair standing up in all directions, his glasses skewing here and there, and his then-ubiquitous bowtie lurching off to one side. And in the background, smoking a serious-looking pipe (emulating his guru), we have the former head of Lyn's "security," whom I will not name out of respect for the fact that he had the great good sense to quit the org not long after the October 1986 raids, no doubt because on the first day of that raid, a drunken and crazed-with-fear Lyn threatened to shoot everyone in sight, and sent a psychotic telegram to Ronald Reagan that practically said as much.
Then we have a thing that merely says "Al Gore," with a recent picture of Al.
Then we have the ad (I guess) for Lyn's Oktoberfest Webkast or Webfest, with a doubling photo of the present-day Lyn looking aged, senile, infantilized, and just plain creepy.
And then a startlingly young Franklin D. Roosevelt (taken when? When he was Assistant Secretary of the Navy in WWI?). What are we to construe from this?
In fact, what does it all mean?
(I have previously commented on the hilarious Jeff and John photo, with John looking like Man Mountain Dean, in the LaRouche PAC weekly whatsis—previously the Steinberg Report, but I guess Jeff is in the hundhaus now.)
Who's in charge of the photos now? Who's "designing" this stuff? What underlying messages are supposed to be conveyed? Because what it's saying to me is like the old New Solidarity feature, Geek of the Week. Only the geeks are way, way weirder than they used to be....

09-09-2008, 03:35 AM

candor

Insofar as LaRouchites are capable of humanity, I have long found the "boomer" www.larouchepub.com website much more humane - at least in appearance - than the starkly fascistic LYMwww.larouchepac.com website which gives me the chills whenever I summon it up. Also, there seems to be much more in the way of explication on the former site while the latter is rapidly becoming the LYM's You Tube. How silly to think that by making films and animations, one is doing "creative" work. Guess Lyn is Foghorn Leghorn training the LYM in how to catch a chicken hawk - or would that be a meta-animation?

09-09-2008, 01:27 PM

poe

Quote:
Originally Posted by candor
Insofar as LaRouchites are capable of humanity, I have long found the "boomer" www.larouchepub.com website much more humane - at least in appearance - than the starkly fascistic LYM www.larouchepac.com website which gives me the chills whenever I summon it up. Also, there seems to be much more in the way of explication on the former site while the latter is rapidly becoming the LYM's You Tube. How silly to think that by making films and animations, one is doing "creative" work. Guess Lyn is Foghorn Leghorn training the LYM in how to catch a chicken hawk - or would that be a meta-animation?


I much prefer the larouchepub site as well. They seem to constantly post things on larouchepac.com that were absolutely never meant for public distribution at all.

09-09-2008, 03:30 PM

shadok

1979 ICLC conf in Detroit Interesting posted videos of larouche at the 1979 ICLC conf in Detroit, Michigan. (on Youtube)
LaRouche 1979 Keynote 1 of 5 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkVFsybnSO8
LaRouche 1979 Keynote 2 of 5 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2mRj_H5_Ps
LaRouche 1979 Keynote 3 of 5 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpnoMxHIscg
LaRouche 1979 Keynote 4 of 5 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxuyOsAJmIM
LaRouche 1979 Keynote 5 of 5 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-1kL4UsbaA
LaRouche's 1979 Pledge: End the British Colonial System

09-09-2008, 03:43 PM

xlcr4life

Quote:
Originally Posted by shadok
Good point. Put a Guru or Fuhrer as head of say, the U.S. Army and yes you have it. Think of "Apocalypse Now" and Colonel Kurtz for instance... it gives an interesting angle to understand the parallels between Cults and military/fascist dictatorships..

After being in the LC and learning more about cults, I talked to another exlcer and we both agreed than one runs into many cult like or versions of Lyn in the "outside world". Cults of personality show up anywhere.
In looking back at what we did in the LC, it is amazing to see just how sick and demented we could become . Lyn being called a "small time Hitler" is right on the money in my opinion since he could take just about any topic and create a mini army of Brown K Mart shirts , ready to growl and salivate over "solving" a problem. In our deluded minds, the simplistic idea that all would be solved "if only Lyn was in the White House" was enough of a carrot to keep some going full throttle for Lyn without ever thinking of this rationally.
Lyn was prepared in his delusions to be a General who would declare war on the USSR and anyone or any country. In rereading some of the memos issued to us and rerprinted at laroucheplanet.info and lyndonlarouchewatch.org, I asked myself if I bothered to really read that crap back then or was I like everyone else and just skimmed it and tossed it aside for the next emergency we had.
I tend to feel that the LYM and LYMettes will be having the same emotions after they leave and reread some of the lunacy they were handing out and putting up on web sites.
I read this young man's blog and just had to find the section he mentions here. I had this on factnet.org a few years ago and it is worth reposting to see how crazy and how the LC was so fanatically totalitarian in fantasy.
http://dogmadestroyer.livejournal.com/136305.html
"So if the reasons marijuana is outlawed are completely bunk, why is it still illegal? Well, in short, there are a lot of people with the same agenda as William Randolph Hearst and Andrew Mellon – people willing to perpetuate myths in order to gain more personal wealth and prestige, or just nut-jobs. One such nut-job is a certain Mr. Lyndon Larouche. In 1981, Mr. Larouche petitioned president Reagan to give Mark Chapman (the man who shot John Lennon) clemency, and declare him a national hero. Apparently, John Lennon was the world's "most evil man." (Herer, p. 98-99) for spreading the evils of drugs, sex, and rock and roll. In Larouche's ideal world, anyone playing disco or rock and roll would be jailed. His ideas were simply those of Hearst, just in a different era. And of course they didn't reflect fact. Just what are the facts, though?
Here is the actual passage which was based on a West Coast NADC event when we were using the Andt drug Coalition in California to woo West Coast Republicans, LA Yahoos in effect. Out of this we hookied up with Ted Gunderson who was a top official in the LA FBI office. He has his own web site of conspiracy and operation.
http://www.electricemperor.com/eecdr...4/ECH14_16.HTM
" If you thought Anslinger's music craziness was over after he went after jazz in the 1930s and 40s, then consider this:
One of the chief organizations among the 4,000 or so "Families Against Marijuana" type groups today is Lyndon LaRouche's "War on Drugs" committee, supported by Nancy Reagan, TV evangelists Jerry Falwell, Jimmy Swaggart, Pat Robertson, and other right-wing activists.
In January, 1981, this author and five members of the California Marijuana Initiative (CMI) secretly, by pretending to be pro-LaRouche, attended the West Coast convention of this organization, whose guest speaker was Ed Davis, former Los Angeles Police Chief, who was at that time a freshman state senator from Chatsworth, California.
As we each walked in separately, we were asked to sign a petition endorsing a Detroit reporter who had written an open letter to the new President, Ronald Reagan, asking him to give immediate presidential clemency and make a national hero of Mark Chapman, who had murdered John Lennon of the Beatles six weeks earlier.
The letter stated that John Lennon had been the most evil man on the planet because he almost single-handedly "turned on" the planet to "illicit drugs". The evils of rock 'n' roll are a constant theme of the "War on Drugs" publications.
To keep up with the part we were playing, we signed the petition. (John, forgive us—we were playing a clandestine role: under-cover CMI anti-narc. We remember you for "Give Peace a Chance," "Imagine," and all the rest.)
After we signed the petition, their leaders took us to the back of the room to show us some of the goals that would be achieved when they would come to full power over the next decade.
On five or so long tables set up in the back of the Los Angeles Marriott LAX meeting room were hundreds of recordings of Bach, Beethoven, Wagner, Chopin, Tchaikovsky, Mozart, and others, and dozens of pro-nuclear power publications.
They told us that along with new marijuana laws, they expected to implement their most important goal: anyone in the future who played disco, rock 'n' roll, or jazz on the radio, on television, in schools, or in concert, or just sold rock 'n' roll records or any other music that wasn't from their approved classical lists, would be jailed, including music teachers, disc jockeys, and record company executives. School teachers, if they allowed such music by students, would be fired. (LA Times; KNBC-TV.)
They were dead serious.
Their magazine "War on Drugs" has always spent more space denouncing music with the "evil marijuana beat" than on heroin, cocaine, and PCP combined!
Ed Davis was genuinely shocked and embarrassed about this out-front aspect of their anti-music dogma and said, "Well, I don't believe we could ever get legislation at this time outlawing these other types of music or their lyrics. … But I do believe with the new Reagan Law-and-Order Administration, we are going to be able to pass some new and stronger anti-marijuana paraphernalia laws, even recriminalizing marijuana altogether in the states that have decriminalization laws now. … That's the start."
I called his office a few days later and was told by an assistant that Davis had no advance idea of this group's musical fixation and that he had accepted the invitation based solely on the name "War on Drugs". Most of what Davis predicted that day has come about. Those visionaries of a new society, one free from the influence of pot and any mention of it had their way in the 1980s. Remember James Watt and the Beach Boys in 1986?"
This is not made up LYM and LYMettes. Ask Mike Billington about the jokes and signs he had at his card table shrine at US airports about the death of John Lennon. I myself had no idea that we were getting petition signatures in praise of Mark David Chapman for killing John Lennon. Mike Billington should have thought of what he was doing in gloating over the death of a John Lennon. It is not pleasant to be Instant Karmalized in prison a few times for Lyn, Mike.
For the curent LYM and LYMettes, you probably had to sit through Lyn denouncing Congressman Barney Frank's sexual orientation over and over as Lyn huffed and puffed about him. Read this interview in the new Money Magazine and see if this jibes with the Bizarro World you live in.
http://money.cnn.com/2008/08/22/real...ymag/index.htm\\ http://money.cnn.com/2008/08/22/real_estate/barney_frank.moneymag/index.htm The cult always has this version of Lyn which is presented by them as a PR facade. At the same time, we ALL know Lynn from the memos and speeches where he goes nuts and argues using the same vitriol that he and we denied in public. In public we denied everything Lyn said about the Queen of England. In a conference, Lyn tells you that he meant it. Since no one left the room or argued with him about this, Lyn knows that you are the "sheep" he warns you about.
For the remaining deadenders, that clock ticks away each second with another part of your life being taken from you.
One day last week I had the alignment of the stars with flipping on the TV and seeing a repeat of the Zubrin Science channel show on Mars, this column in an email by someone we all know.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/JI03Aa02.html
and poor Phil U standing outside , sucking in exhaust fumes for Lyn.

xlcr4life@hotmail.com

09-09-2008, 10:30 PM

shadok

MC Hawking

Quote:
Originally Posted by borisbad
If anyone is interested in a presentation of modern particle physics for the layperson that is 100 times more effective than the primitive animations of LYM or Bruce Director's classes I invite them to check out the following at youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j50ZssEojtM

In the same vein....
this is from a guy called Ken Leavitt-Lawrence, known as MC Hawking, he is a nerdcore hip hop artist who parodies gangster rap and theoretical physicist Stephen W. Hawking. And it is scientifically more accurate (and popular) than, say Bruce Director's classes...
MC Hawkings E=MC http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCDXeJGCiWg
MC Hawking - What We Need More Of Is Science http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89jt7zJzkNQ&feature=related
Big Bizang http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20LWam5KMQg
MC Hawking - F*** the creationists http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bj0ZkkYRwhA

:)

09-10-2008, 05:18 AM

earnest_one

Not Me Either!

Quickly, as I am pressed for time. Excuse any and all mistakes, especially the poor prose.
Not me either!
Hey, Borismaglev… I have posted here many times, albeit not much recently, but I am not, nor have I ever been a "member". As I've indicated many times, a close relative is/was a member for 30 years and because of this connection, I had many "experiences" with the LC dating back to the mid 70's, starting in Wiesbaden. Indeed, it was a Jeremiah Duggan-like encounter with those a-holes, although it lasted much longer and I made it out alive and (relatively) intact.
I subscribed to New Solidarity for a year or two in the 80's (mostly to read material of my relative, as it appeared once in a while), so you can say I lent some financial support to LL although the true costs of producing that rag was probably far higher than the subscription costs, especially if you factored in wages that were never paid.
I met LL once, and talked with him one-on-one. I never had the slightest impression that he was charismatic or even interesting, other than as an object for study, in the sense of an extremely disturbed individual who was wildly self-centered and, for some reason, managed to attract many people to his cause. HIS CAUSE, not a rational political program. In a sense, he was a sort of hideous creep-type person. Spooky -- doubled, then cubed, then quadrupled.
On the other hand, I specialized in making LC views and written material intelligible to the average citizen. The core ideas, at least long ago, were quite reasonable in terms of science and technology, sane development (especially fusion energy), and classical culture.
But his hatred of people—especially his bizarre attacks on the environmentalists-- seemed absurd and counterproductive. High technology, when implemented rationally, would be environmentally friendly and his failure to make this case is horrible. This is one area where he appears to be taking a position simply to raise money from corporations –- a sure sign of a typical politician-fraud (not that this is the best example of his fraudulent, personal core).
So… while I agreed with many positions, I never had the slightest inclination to join his group or support their activities. I did wonder, however, how they captured my relative. But it was more than wonder, as it affected others far more than me, and so I was affected indirectly by having to discuss the "situation" ad infinitum, "add nauseous", to help my family. What a colossal waste of time and energy.
I have little to say about whether parents are responsible for their children entering into cults. Many factors are involved, and I have personally witnessed extreme pressure tactics that would easily crack many well-balanced people.
The one piece of advice that I would give to EVERYONE about cults is to NEVER, EVER go on a weekend retreat where you are isolated from the world and various psychologically twisted measures are used to manipulate you into doing things that you wouldn't ordinarily consider doing.
If you add sleep deprivation into the mix, then the formula is mechanical; indeed it is well-honed algorithm for getting people to do things against their own best interests and, ultimately, against the interests of humanity in general.
Many people have testified that it a lot easier to enter than to get out. This is akin to the infamous Roach Motel – certainly a conscious view of LL who will go down in history as a world-class sadist rather than even a competent thinker, let alone a "scientist" who made even a slight contribution to the advancement of human thought.
Finally, his writings are simply an insult to the human mind to read; they repulse the very concept of intelligence and clarity. This was obvious to me thirty years ago, and I regarded it as a wild red flag that something was terribly askew with his whole organization.

09-10-2008, 09:13 PM

xlcr4life

1 Attachment(s)

Quote:
Originally Posted by earnest_one
On the other hand, I specialized in making LC views and written material intelligible to the average citizen. The core ideas, at least long ago, were quite reasonable in terms of science and technology, sane development (especially fusion energy), and classical culture..

That basically is what has kept Lyn going for decades. It certainly was not Lyn who is rejected as a loon by just about everyone who has met him or views the endless TV shows and millions of pages of delusions purchased with over 281 million dollars of other people's money. What I and everyone else did was to present some concepts in a sane level and hope that the org would become some type of rationale operation. Little did any of us know that this whole parcel of delusions and fantasy was designed to never succeed in the first place.
It is interesting in retrospect to look at Lyn's eforts in the SWP and other groups to DIRECTLY recruit with himself as the bait. Those efforts failed so miserably that Lyn came to the conclusions that if he wants his own cult of personality, he can't win one over, he has to set up his own. Indeed, the first face one would meet was not Lyn , but his wife or original SDS members who presented what to them was rationale and appealing to the strata at hand. The basic history of any one who worked in the National Office was that they could call, meet and work with a lot of interesting people, but once Lyn met with them, it was all over. One of those people we shall read about later.
The people who joined may have had home problems, and I firmly believe that after reviewing many members life stories after leaving the LC years and years ago. What should never be forgotten is that all of those people who joined had an impulse towards something better for the world then what they had at that moment. The perversion of that emotion by Lyn in having people squander years in this non sense is as big a crime as the physical and mental horrors which were done.
Yesterday had a funny clash of LC personal in my vicinity. I was reading this article on Violent Extremism which mentions the Larouche cult.
http://www.newstatesman.com/internat...d-social-young http://www.newstatesman.com/international-politics/2008/09/groups-recruited-social-young
"Social psychologists, such as Zimbardo, who study extremist groups, cults and coercive persuasion understand that the key to prevention is education. This is education about the structures and processes of totalitarian, ideologically extremist groups.
I recently taught a course on Cults and Totalitarianism to two groups of students at the University of Minnesota in the midwestern US. We covered the social psychology, structures and processes of groups as varied as Lyndon LaRouche's right-wing political cult, the sexually abusive Children of God, and Pol Pot's totalitarian and murderous regime in 1970s Cambodia. Several students stated that during the term of the course itself they had cause to use this new information to help either themselves or friends and family to stay away from dangerous groups. Other students asked me why this sort of information hadn't been made available at an earlier stage in their education.
We must teach young people how to recognize totalitarian groups. Drawing on work from Hannah Arendt, Robert Jay Lifton and others, we can start with this five point definition"
The group is led by a charismatic and authoritarian leader
It is isolating and has a closed, steeply hierarchical inner structure
The group adheres to an absolute and exclusive belief system (a total ideology)
Processes of coercive persuasion are used to isolate followers and control them through a combined dynamic of "love" and fear
Followers are exploited

These groups succeed because they operate based on universal human (and usually adaptive) responses of people seeking comfort and connection when afraid. The process unfolds by isolating recruits from prior sources of comfort, establishing the group as the new safe haven, and then instilling fear to create what is known as a trauma bond. This is now well-understood by social psychologists. It can be taught in interesting and understandable ways to young people."


For a split second I thought that maybe this is too rough to include Lyn and the cult in this topic. But after reviewing the actual history of the LC, it is very appropriate. A much older leader sets up a charismatic cult of personality with a long list of enemies who need to be vanquished to make their world whole again. The recruits are given a 24/7 world of apocolyptic doom where the fate of whatever world is at hand depends on them sacrificing everything for that. The charismatic leader does not take the punch, the gun shot the arrest as the youthfull recruit is expendable.
Lyn is angry at the left for rejecting him. Does he take on the CP in hand to hand combat? No, he sends the LC where Zeke takes one blow to the brain after another for Lyn. What is most disturbing about this is that years later exlcrs would joke among themsleves that Zeke would have his own catch phrase where the answer to the rhetorical question he asked was "Cus Zeke can kill". The stories of harrassing journalists in the 1980 New Hampshire campaign, the threats against Ken Dalto and Gus after they left, the asking of security people about using remote controled airplanes to assasinate Jimmy Carter as described in the King book add up to pretty scary stuff. A cult where Lyn asks the members to be like Joan of Arc and not fear dying for Lyn as I once read an LYM member hawk others has no set limit on lunacy.
How does one view the cult's hate filled frenzy about Al Gore where the briefing proudly proclaims that LYM members were able to hijack security badges and get to an arms length of the Gore's ? What does one make of a cult which has such hatred for Gays during the AIDS campaigns that I think we hired a Burt Reynolds look a like to check himself into several hospitals for a potential photo op and declare that he has AIDS. We used to joke about this during briefings when the NC would tell us about how Lyn is predictng that a major movie star will soon be having some sorid stories to tell the press and this will make proposition 69 pass in California.
What does one make of a cult which gathers signatures on behalf of proclaiming the killer of John Lennon a national hero?
At what point does this all make one shudder and start to leave this Bizarro World?
All of this and much more have not seemed to effect poor Nancy Spannaus, who between LC dumpster diving for a wardrobe and seeing poor Ed's health change over the years still, still has to write this jibberish about how there is no one fit for the presidency exceot Lyn.
http://www.larouchepub.com/other/200...pres_cand.html http://www.larouchepub.com/other/2008/3536no_pres_cand.html
This release has been done over and over since the first 1976 campaign by her and she still has not caught on.
Another deadender who still has not cought on is our gifted photographer Phil U. The stark contrast between those who left the Bizarro World years and years ago and those who stay is very evident in this sequence of life. During the afternoon I was looking up the populatiuon of Purcellville where Phil U was parked on the curb for a day. On a good day there are 7,000 people in the new home of LaroucheTown. Phil U , Lyn's somollier went from a "pour" to being poor and is spending time inhaling car fumes for Lyn instead of fresh air with his family at the local parks. While I was reading about Purcellville a co worker had the Rush Limbaugh show playing in the backround when all of a sudden, I hear Limabaugh reading from an article written by "Spengler" about Obama. See story # 9.
http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/dai...104.guest.html http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_090908/content/01125104.guest.html
Limbaugh may be a blowhard to some, but, he has 13.5 million listeners who hear him read an article by Spengler while Lyn spends 281 million dollars and ends up with a tired deadender dodging cars. This is even funnier if you know that there once a New Fed article by Doug Malouk condemning Limbaugh many years as the Mid West office did not understand why no one wanted Lyn's lunacy.
As far as radio stations go, ther should be a good story about the New Brunswick MD radio station we owed which like everything else Lyn was invovled with, went kablooey. Recently, Lyn had his shot at radio when Sheldon Drobny who liked Lyn and started up Air America. Somehow, that went under pretty fast and of all people, Webster Tarpley had more air time than any LYM or LYMette. The closest a LYM got to Air America was when a few of the LYM and LYMettes botherd AL Franken so much he fought them on the mean streets of Manchester New Hampshire a few years ago.
Hey , let's see who got more votes, AL Franken or Lyn?
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/...rats.larouche/ http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/01/27/elec04.prez.democrats.larouche/
http://mensnewsdaily.com/archive/new...04-franken.htm http://mensnewsdaily.com/archive/newswire/news2004/0104/012804-franken.htm
What makes the Spengler story so much more funny is that I read not a pixel of coverage of the LYM or LYMettes in Denver while if you read the article, Spengler was right in the middle of the action.
Maybe the LYM and LYMeyttes were afraid of running out of gas driving from Chicago or LA to Denver when seeing that weeks income?

There is sure a hell of material that could be covered in a Molly Kronberg book. I would guess that it would have more info than a say, a Jeff S book which would have page after page of "Yes Lyn, Yes Lyn, you are right Lyn, OK Lyn, jump how high Lyn? What ski chalet time share Lyn? I turn all of my money in Lyn? Those guys WERE CIA, not grifters who took you for millions Lyn. "

xlcr4life@hotmail.com

09-10-2008, 09:42 PM

howie

I believe the situation with Sheldon Drobny was he was infatuated with that whole "Prescott Bush financed the Nazi War Machine" conspiratorial line -- , which when asked to defend lead him to cite the first thing he found, Larouche. Drobny brought in Mike Malloy -- in the endless bankruptcies and change-overs of Air America, Drobny no longer has any ownership in the company and founded a new company. One host, the sort of late night host -- Mike Malloy -- wandering into the muck of 9/11 Conspiracy Theories interviewed Webster Tarpley, and Air America fired him. Drobny's new company hired him, later hiring the tedious and irritating (but probably about the only thing profitable for Air America) Randi Rhodes when Air America fired her.

09-10-2008, 11:03 PM

localgreek

[QUOTE=earnest_one;364303]Quickly, as I am pressed for time. Excuse any and all mistakes, especially the poor prose.
NOn the other hand, I specialized in making LC views and written material intelligible to the average citizen. The core ideas, at least long ago, were quite reasonable in terms of science and technology, sane development (especially fusion energy), and classical culture.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
localgreek: with all due respect, (and I mean this sincerely for I believe that most of the folks during the counter culture years that were pulled into this were idealistic, if vulnerable) the core ideas of long ago were always tainted by something unsavory; there was always something sycophantic of LL that permeated so much of the stuff. Also, anyone seriously interested in fusion energy and classical culture certainly had much better outlets, sources, communities than the LL org. The world is a big place. Serious classical scholars are multilingual and there is fabulous work going on in all kinds of places; similarly in physics. But the LL group was a destructive cult from early on; it had the smell of a destructive cult because there was always the vile godhead himself. It already smelled of something Stalinist/Hitlerist.
As for the point made about the army being like a cult, I would like to draw your attention to an article by Dr. Margaret Singer. I also think that although the word cult is now generally pejorative, we might want to recall the dictionary meaning. So, perhaps we ought to stress that this is a destructive cult.
For the article on "How the United States Marine Corps Differs from Cults" please see:
http://www.rickross.com/reference/br...nwashing2.html http://www.rickross.com/reference/brainwashing/brainwashing2.html
The www.rickross.com site is very interesting.
There is also by a fellow called Lifton, who knows a good deal about destructive cults, a more detailed breakdown of the key elements that are characteristic of cults:
http://www.rickross.com/reference/br...washing19.html http://www.rickross.com/reference/brainwashing/brainwashing19.html
As for the issue of troubled familes, well, I know very few people who do not come from families where there wasn't some problem. Life is hard and presents most people with all manner of challenges; how many people really grew up in the bliss of Lassie like families or Father Knows Best. If your people came from the working classes, there were serious challenges and hardships at work; if your people were rural folk that life has its certain hardships; if you were from immigrant stock than a film like the Joy Luck Club (hope I got the name right) highlights the transmission of pain that is characteristid of the immigrant; some of us had easier times, some harder, I do not know anyone who had a blissful life while growing up. That said, it could be that the people who get sucked in were very idealistic and vulnerable and lonely and then there is the other issue I have always wanted to raise: identity. Is it possible that a more fragile identity makes one more vulnerable? certainly it might contribute to making it difficult to exit if one had a fragile identity.
I think this is a sinister cult and the people are abused and battered. I wish there was legal recourse; who will pay? when will he pay????

09-11-2008, 01:39 AM

poe

More on LaRouchePub vs. LaRouchePac Further illustration of the difference between the "Boomer LaRouche Site" (www.larouchepub.com) and the LYM version (www.larouchepac.com ) is Lyn's "Virtually No Candidate" statement. Nancy has an article on it posted at the larouchepub site ( http://www.larouchepub.com/other/2008/3536no_pres_cand.html ) that omits the embarrassing reference to "emotional breakdowns in Leesburg" found in the full version posted at larouchepac (http://www.larouchepac.com/news/2008/09/02/effect-there-virtually-no-candidate.html ) . The larouchepub.com site seems designed to actually try to win people over to LaRouche's ideas. I'm not sure what the larouchepac site is designed to do.

09-11-2008, 06:50 PM

borisbad

Larouche.pub is like the EIR on which it is based. It was started to be directed to businesspeople, people in gov't etc. and toned down the more screeching and simple minded polemics found in New Solidarity and the American Almanac. But if you go back and look at old EIRs you found people writing articles that were more or less based upon some real intelligence or interviews with outside sources, etc. Both sites these days are almost totally and entirely devoted to Lyn and Helga with a few articles by Nancy (mostly simply quoting Il Douche), Debby and a couple of others.

09-11-2008, 08:31 PM

earnest_one

Ranting and Raving

Localgreek,
You write in response to a simple claim of mine and say that:
"with all due respect, (and I mean this sincerely for I believe that most of the folks during the counter culture years that were pulled into this were idealistic, if vulnerable) the core ideas of long ago were always tainted by something unsavory; there was always something sycophantic of LL that permeated so much of the stuff. Also, anyone seriously interested in fusion energy and classical culture certainly had much better outlets, sources, communities than the LL org."
I doubt anyone here would dispute this. But you've missed the point. XLCR understood what I meant immediately and, I simply add to his remarks my apologies to any and all ex-members by perhaps appearing to make the claim that I was better at presenting LL's "platform" than others. I simply gave it a good try, just to experience first-hand the disparity between a reasonable straightforward presentation versus LL's bizarre mix of other people's good ideas coupled with his pathological need to be the center of attention and his complete lack of insight into how to talk to (or write material for) average working Americans.
His "lower 80%" says it all. The majority of people are somehow lower. Instead, he could simply say the vast majority of working people or most Americans. The "lower 80% of family income brackets" sounds (to me) like a typical college professor lecturing to a class – the very thing that LL says he detests (a self-hating dictator?!).
I also think you underestimate the attraction of an idealistic "collection of ideas" that, in my experience, have never been presented before by any other political candidate.
Sure, one can look back and see and document ALL the sinister aspects of LL and his org from long ago. This is useful, especially now, for the young ones. On the other hand, many bright people worked their asses off for this guy and, more importantly, for a set of ideas that are quite reasonable. Did they overlook the surrounding milieu of hate and twisted conspiracies and and and and and… ? Yes, of course, that is obvious. But so what?
This issue has been beat to death on this board; and I am sympathetic. But "some balance" is reasonable as everything is not ENTIRELY black and white.
Again I sincerely think you underestimate the actual circumstances in the USA which, as LL correctly states—and for a long time++is far far worse that anyone would imagine if they watched television news and modern entertainment which is designed to make people passive and uninterested in real-world developments.
Your next door neighbor is probably more emotionally involved with his/her favorite major sports team than whether or not you (or even his or her family) have health insurance and quality care and/or even a living wage.
More to the point++and a serious point indeed++the intellectual prowess of virtually everyone is still great; people simply use their minds for other things. Sports fans can argue for hours about who was the best baseball hitter or basketball player or big-time quarterback and recite, with amazing accuracy and passion, a vast array of supporting statistics and subtle points to buttress their arguments.
On the other hand, they appear to have no feel for the concept of orders of magnitude when it comes to national debt or war spending and the amount of time that they will have to work to pay for policies that are fundamentally against their best interests. Ten million, ten billion, ten trillion – what is the difference?
Contrast that to the extremely passionate disputes about hitting averages, where people argue over who was better by making exceedingly strong arguments in favor of one hitter over another because someone's favorite got on base 4 more times every thousand times at bat than someone else's favorite.
I give considerable credit to the older ex-members who grew up in a different time ++ when idealism was more a part of the "ether" than it is now, yet they saw/felt that even that small amount was in grave danger of evaporating, as it has now, for all practical purposes.
Please excuse my French, but F..k your cult "vulnerability" argument. LL rightly points out that we are all vulnerable to things far more serious. It is easy to overlook the craziness when idealism is being sucked into a black hole. This is his primary "parlor trick" and it is hardly original. Every sensitive young person is vulnerable, and not because they had conflicts with their mommies and/or daddies.
Finally, speaking of disparities and poor arguments (including my own, on occasion), here is an example IMHO of a brilliant argument, simple and clear, passionate and sincere, of a "Hollywood" person (Matt Damon) evaluating, in just a minute or two, the current political/news/cultural climate, and asking some penetrating questions about the Republican's Vice- Presidential candidate:
http://www.breitbart.tv/html/171553.html
He says he know little about her but would like to know whether she believes that dinosaurs walked the earth thousand of years ago: Is Palin an irrational creationist or is she grounded in scientific reality? He asks if it's really true that she sought to ban books (perhaps this helps explain LL's slow response to her being picked!). He points out that the actuarial tables indicate that McCain has one chance in three of living out his first term (I haven't verified the stat), and he goes on to say that the idea of a Palin presidency is like a bad Disney movie and wonders how we have gotten so far out of touch with reality that a person like this could realistically++and soon—gain access to the nuclear codes.
My summary, above, is about three orders of magnitude less persuasive than Damon's one or two minute remarks, so I encourage everyone reading this to at least spend an minute and listen to him.
My point has little to do with Republicans versus Democrats or anything of the sort; it is simply an example of a sane person asking some simple questions and providing more insight into the current morass than LL ever did in his entire lifetime. Here, of course, I mean making a point directly and in as few words as possible, with sincerity and seriousness.
A good argument can be made for training oneself to have a long attention span. On the other hand, one needn't have a long attention span to hear and understand some simple truths about the world in a way that (to me, at least) arouses interest and passion
End of Rant.

09-11-2008, 09:18 PM

xlcr4life

Hey now, Lyn is Pope Larouche for the LYM and LYMettes.

http://larouchepac.com/news/2008/09/10/response-gratuitous-insult-le-parisien-must-check-its-source.html
Any translations of this?
http://www.leparisien.fr/abo-faits-divers/pour-les-conspirationnistes-la-verite-est-ailleurs-09-09-2008-208458.php

Edition Abonnés - Faits divers Pour les conspirationnistes, « la vérité est ailleurs »Damien Delseny | 09.09.2008, 07h00



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AVEC les attentats du 11 Septembre, les conspirationnistes mondiaux ont trouvé un terrain de manoeuvre sans limites. En France, c'est le livre de Thierry Meyssan qui a le premier allumé la mèche en 2002. « L'Effroyable Imposture » pulvérise alors la thèse officielle : pas d'avion crashé sur le Pentagone, les attentats organisés « de l'intérieur »… Cette bible du complot s'arrache en librairie et malgré les démentis et les faiblesses des arguments, elle garde encore aujourd'hui des milliers de défenseurs et de promoteurs à travers le monde.
« Les personnes qui adhèrent à ces thèses sont quasiment dans une démarche de foi. C'est une croyance, donc il n'y a pas de débat possible avec eux », résume Jean Guisnel, journaliste au « Point » et coauteur avec Guillaume Dasquié de « l'Effroyable Mensonge », un livre de contre-enquête sur l'ouvrage de Thierry Meyssan. « Pour démonter ce qu'ils avancent, il faut effectuer un travail titanesque, qu'ils jugeront biaisé de toute façon. »
« On vous cache des choses »
Pour trouver le pape de la théorie du complot, il faut aller aux Etats-Unis, terre de Lyndon LaRouche, un polémiste qui a inspiré très largement les promoteurs de la conspiration. Aujourd'hui, ses disciples parcourent le monde, diffusent des documentaires ou montent des sites Internet. La Toile est devenue un vecteur rêvé. Pour rendre leurs hypothèses crédibles, les conspirationnistes appliquent une logique implacable. Exemple pour le crash de l'avion sur le Pentagone : les autorités refusent de fournir les vidéos des caméras de surveillance ? Donc il n'y a jamais eu de crash. Certaines photos du site ne font pas apparaître de débris de l'appareil ? Donc il n'y a jamais eu d'avion. Une fois le principe posé, tout ce qui va venir s'y opposer sera forcément suspect. Les témoins ? Ils sont à la solde des organisateurs des attentats. Les débris effectivement retrouvés ? On les a apportés sur place. Les experts qui valident la thèse officielle ? Comment croire des scientifiques proches du pouvoir… Du coup, l'immense rapport d'enquête sur les attentats publié en 2004 ou les récentes conclusions de l'Institut officiel de normalisation américain (NIST) sur l'effondrement de la tour 7 du World Trade Center sont balayés d'un revers de main.
Le ciment qui scelle les thèses conspirationnistes est complexe. Mais il utilise le ressort bien connu du « complot mondial » qu'on peut résumer ainsi : « On vous cache des choses. La vérité est ailleurs mais personne n'ose vous la dire. » Et face à une administration Bush qui n'a pas toujours brillé par sa transparence, les conspirationnistes jouent sur du velours. Si Bush a pu mentir sur les armes de destruction massive en Irak, alors il a pu mentir sur le reste.
Aussi, peu importe les images maintes fois vues des avions percutant les tours, peu importe les certificats de décès des passagers de l'appareil qui s'est écrasé sur le Pentagone, peu importe les kamikazes et même peu importe Ben Laden. Pour eux, « la vérité est ailleurs », comme dans la série « X-Files »…
Le Parisien
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

09-11-2008, 11:32 PM

localgreek

response to Candor from localgreek

Candor writes to Localgreek: I doubt anyone here would dispute this. But you've missed the point. XLCR understood what I meant immediately and, I simply add to his remarks my apologies to any and all ex-members by perhaps appearing to make the claim that I was better at presenting LL's "platform" than others. I simply gave it a good try, just to experience first-hand the disparity between a reasonable straightforward presentation versus LL's bizarre mix of other people's good ideas coupled with his pathological need to be the center of attention and his complete lack of insight into how to talk to (or write material for) average working Americans.
His "lower 80%" says it all. The majority of people are somehow lower. Instead, he could simply say the vast majority of working people or most Americans. The "lower 80% of family income brackets" sounds (to me) like a typical college professor lecturing to a class – the very thing that LL says he detests (a self-hating dictator?!).
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Localgreek: with all due respect Candor your statement above about LL's choice of language encapsulates one (among a myriad) of problems with him.
His writing is abominable; he wouldn't get through first year college; his stream of consciousness style, his tendency to hook one thing with another reminds me of those people who used to be on drug trips during the counter culture years.(FYI I did try Marijuana some ten or fifteen times but not more and never other drugs. Even then whenever I read an article about the nefarious effect of drugs, I took it seriously. Just my scary=cat nature. However, as a student and an activist during the counter culture years I came across many drug users; the campuses were full of such folk; so I became familiar with the thinking sequences of those on drugs; I am afraid Larouche's thinking and writing suggests problems with the synapses (logic), if not more serious problems which I am not qualified to speculate on.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++-
Candor writes: I also think you underestimate the attraction of an idealistic "collection of ideas" that, in my experience, have never been presented before by any other political candidate.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++-
Localgreek: I get your point Candor; unfortunately, I never found LL to be impressive; I always found him to be a fraud; please recall that there are three people in my life in this cult; one an immediate family member. I was exposed to the LL literature from the early 70s. The man was repugnant. At the time I was a socialist and even so found him very suspect. However, I recognize that young people were impressed. Unfortunately, I am of the nature that is rarely impressed by one individual. As for no political candidate presenting a 'collection of ideas', well, so many dictator-killers have done this, that I have always been cautious.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++-
Candor writes: Sure, one can look back and see and document ALL the sinister aspects of LL and his org from long ago. This is useful, especially now, for the young ones. On the other hand, many bright people worked their asses off for this guy and, more importantly, for a set of ideas that are quite reasonable. Did they overlook the surrounding milieu of hate and twisted conspiracies and and and and and… ? Yes, of course, that is obvious. But so what?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++-
Localgreek: You may feel that that overlooking the surrounding milieu is not important; here we will have to agree to disagree. It is my humble opinion that the "so what?" actually does matter, and matters a great deal; why? Because the surrounding milieu of hate and twisted consipiracies intimates problems, intimates abnormalities, initimates or should alarm bells. That is, if you are a student of history. But here let me not sound dogmatic, we are in territory that bewilders me because all cult specialists have explanation of what happens to the brainwashed person. I do not rightly understand it but that is my deficiency. I am not blaming those who were whipped into obedience; I am just puzzled there were not alarm bells early on. But then as I say I don't understand much about how one gets into a cult.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Candor writes: This issue has been beat to death on this board; and I am sympathetic. But "some balance" is reasonable as everything is not ENTIRELY black and white.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Localgreek; with all due respect I find it hard to be balanced when I see our relation to be a total zombie and a totally broken human being. I am not ashamed of being black and white at all. I do not see the need to suggest there are good things in LL. Hitler was an excellent painter, you know, unfortunately, I despise him and his organization with all my being and would never suggest that we become nuanced with regard to him; I look at the larger picture of Hitlerism; I look at the larger picture of Larouchism; same goes for Stalin, a most capable creator of very gripping slogans, but a killer. Sorry, this destructive cult has injured someone close; and Jeremiah's mom is in total agony, daily. We will have to disagree; I am not here to convince anyone of anything. I am basically here to get information about what is done to members.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++-
Candor writes: Again I sincerely think you underestimate the actual circumstances in the USA which, as LL correctly states—and for a long time++is far far worse that anyone would imagine if they watched television news and modern entertainment which is designed to make people passive and uninterested in real-world developments.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++-
Localgreek; again, with all due respect, as someone who travels extensively and who has lived in many parts of the world, I would agree with Milovan Djilas—when he compared communist countries with capitalist ones++, that all things considered, the US is still better than most other places, regardless of the problems, which I do not underestimate. LL is not the only person to know this or to write about this. I must disagree with you again; frankly, LL can't say a word about the American economy that interests me.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Candor writes: Your next door neighbor is probably more emotionally involved with his/her favorite major sports team than whether or not you (or even his or her family) have health insurance and quality care and/or even a living wage.
More to the point++and a serious point indeed++the intellectual prowess of virtually everyone is still great; people simply use their minds for other things. Sports fans can argue for hours about who was the best baseball hitter or basketball player or big-time quarterback and recite, with amazing accuracy and passion, a vast array of supporting statistics and subtle points to buttress their arguments.
On the other hand, they appear to have no feel for the concept of orders of magnitude when it comes to national debt or war spending and the amount of time that they will have to work to pay for policies that are fundamentally against their best interests. Ten million, ten billion, ten trillion – what is the difference?
Contrast that to the extremely passionate disputes about hitting averages, where people argue over who was better by making exceedingly strong arguments in favor of one hitter over another because someone's favorite got on base 4 more times every thousand times at bat than someone else's favorite.
I give considerable credit to the older ex-members who grew up in a different time ++ when idealism was more a part of the "ether" than it is now, yet they saw/felt that even that small amount was in grave danger of evaporating, as it has now, for all practical purposes.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Localgreek: I do not dispute your view that idealism was stronger in the post-war period; it was also a time of a strong economy, and a time when the children of the post-war period had access to higher education quite readily and inexpensively; the access to education and ideas, as well as other things, made it possible to work for a better world. But the flourishing economy was certainly an asset, as well as other things. Perhaps you might want to speak to some young people today and you will be mightily surprised.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++-
Candor writes:
Please excuse my French, but F..k your cult "vulnerability" argument. LL rightly points out that we are all vulnerable to things far more serious. It is easy to overlook the craziness when idealism is being sucked into a black hole. This is his primary "parlor trick" and it is hardly original. Every sensitive young person is vulnerable, and not because they had conflicts with their mommies and/or daddies.
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Localgreek: I believe that many cult specialists++ and I am not sufficiently read in this area; I read here and there but not systematically—argue that vulnerability is certainly what makes it possible to get sucked in.
Yes, sensitive people are vulnerable, especially the young. But from what I have read about cults, it seems, according to those who study these matters, a period of vulnerability is dangerous, for the person can get sucked in at that time.
This is why you folks are doing excellent work here.
I do not know where you get this stuff about "conflicts with their mommies and/or daddies." I was not ever taking this line of analysis.
I try to make stabs about what might suck in a person; I rightly have a hard time understanding to be honest. I had friends who saw right through LL during the 70s, a variety of left-wingers. It was a sort of gut reaction; there was something repugnant about him, something vile. Others just went in; I do not really understand, if you must know the trust. But We have to disagree Candor about the basics.
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Candor writes: A good argument can be made for training oneself to have a long attention span. On the other hand, one needn't have a long attention span to hear and understand some simple truths about the world in a way that (to me, at least) arouses interest and passion
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Localgreek: I will not disagree with you; my point is that I disagree with LL; anything LL says is preposterous; look at his defence of Putin; it's a joke; as for his hatred of the university, well, the university is not a bad place; it is a wonderful place; exciting work goes on in the universities of this country; and folks who are interested in culture and science can be enriched in the academe; they cannot be enriched in this measly money grubbing cult; this is my humble opinion. Better to go to university than to go to the LL cult. My opinion only; I am not interested in converting anyone. But I will have to disagree with the thrust of your position Candor just as you disagree with me. Neverthless, I wish you health and good things in life.
+++++++++++++++++

09-12-2008, 12:28 AM

localgreek

Quote:
Originally Posted by xlcr4life
Hey now, Lyn is Pope Larouche for the LYM and LYMettes.
+++++++++++++++++-
I'VE SORT OF TRANSLATED THE FRENCH QUCKLY, GIVING ATTENTION TO THE LAROUCH ELEMENT, WHICH IS NOT DOMINANT, BUT I HAVE GIVEN THE ESSENTIAL OF THE TRANSLATION the translation is interlineary
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http://larouchepac.com/news/2008/09/10/response-gratuitous-insult-le-parisien-must-check-its-source.html
Any translations of this?
http://www.leparisien.fr/abo-faits-divers/pour-les-conspirationnistes-la-verite-est-ailleurs-09-09-2008-208458.php

Edition Abonnés - Faits divers Pour les conspirationnistes, « la vérité est ailleurs »Damien Delseny | 09.09.2008, 07h00



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AVEC les attentats du 11 Septembre, les conspirationnistes mondiaux ont trouvé un terrain de manoeuvre sans limites. En France, c'est le livre de Thierry Meyssan qui a le premier allumé la mèche en 2002. « L'Effroyable Imposture » pulvérise alors la thèse officielle : pas d'avion crashé sur le Pentagone, les attentats organisés « de l'intérieur »… Cette bible du complot s'arrache en librairie et malgré les démentis et les faiblesses des arguments, elle garde encore aujourd'hui des milliers de défenseurs et de promoteurs à travers le monde.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
With the Sept. 11 attacks conspiratorialists all over the world have found a terrain without limit. In France it was the book( Horrific Imposture) by Thierry Meyssan that first lit the match in 2002 which argued that the attacks were organized on the 'inside.' Despite the weakness of this book there are defenders for it all over the world.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
« Les personnes qui adhèrent à ces thèses sont quasiment dans une démarche de foi. C'est une croyance, donc il n'y a pas de débat possible avec eux », résume Jean Guisnel, journaliste au « Point » et coauteur avec Guillaume Dasquié de « l'Effroyable Mensonge », un livre de contre-enquête sur l'ouvrage de Thierry Meyssan. « Pour démonter ce qu'ils avancent, il faut effectuer un travail titanesque, qu'ils jugeront biaisé de toute façon. »
« On vous cache des choses »
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++-
The people who adhere to these kinds of theses are virtually in the area of faith. They believe and there is no debate possible with them, says Jean Guisnel, journalist at 'Point' and coauthor with Dasquie of: The Horrific Lie, a book that is a counter to Mayssan's.
The premise for those who believe the conspiracy theory is: things are hidden from you
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++-
Pour trouver le pape de la théorie du complot, il faut aller aux Etats-Unis, terre de Lyndon LaRouche, un polémiste qui a inspiré très largement les promoteurs de la conspiration. Aujourd'hui, ses disciples parcourent le monde, diffusent des documentaires ou montent des sites Internet. La Toile est devenue un vecteur rêvé. Pour rendre leurs hypothèses crédibles, les conspirationnistes appliquent une logique implacable. Exemple pour le crash de l'avion sur le Pentagone : les autorités refusent de fournir les vidéos des caméras de surveillance ? Donc il n'y a jamais eu de crash. Certaines photos du site ne font pas apparaître de débris de l'appareil ? Donc il n'y a jamais eu d'avion. Une fois le principe posé, tout ce qui va venir s'y opposer sera forcément suspect. Les témoins ? Ils sont à la solde des organisateurs des attentats. Les débris effectivement retrouvés ? On les a apportés sur place. Les experts qui valident la thèse officielle ? Comment croire des scientifiques proches du pouvoir… Du coup, l'immense rapport d'enquête sur les attentats publié en 2004 ou les récentes conclusions de l'Institut officiel de normalisation américain (NIST) sur l'effondrement de la tour 7 du World Trade Center sont balayés d'un revers de main.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++-
To find the pope of these theories of conspiracy we must go to the US, to the country of LLarouche, a polemicist who has inspired all conspiratortialists.Today his disciples run around all over the world mounting documentaries and internet sites. Conspiratorialist use implacable logic: for instance, for the crash of the plane into the pentagon, they say the authorities have refused to provide the surveillance videos; therefore, there was no plane.As f or witnesses, theysay they have been paid by the organizers of the attacks. As for the debris? It was brought there. As for experts who validate the official thesis? How can you believe scientists close to power? etc.
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Le ciment qui scelle les thèses conspirationnistes est complexe. Mais il utilise le ressort bien connu du « complot mondial » qu'on peut résumer ainsi : « On vous cache des choses. La vérité est ailleurs mais personne n'ose vous la dire. » Et face à une administration Bush qui n'a pas toujours brillé par sa transparence, les conspirationnistes jouent sur du velours. Si Bush a pu mentir sur les armes de destruction massive en Irak, alors il a pu mentir sur le reste.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The cement which holds the theses of conspiratorialists is complex. But they use the old canard of a 'world conspiracy' which can be described thus: things are hidden from you. the truth is elsewhere but no one dares to let you know.
And faced with a Bush administration which has not always been transparent; conspiratorialists play on this velvet. If Bush could lie about arms in Irac, then he can lie about anything else.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Aussi, peu importe les images maintes fois vues des avions percutant les tours, peu importe les certificats de décès des passagers de l'appareil qui s'est écrasé sur le Pentagone, peu importe les kamikazes et même peu importe Ben Laden. Pour eux, « la vérité est ailleurs », comme dans la série « X-Files »…
Le Parisien
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

+++++++++++++++-the translation is above; I am having trouble posting this text

09-12-2008, 06:35 AM

poe

Quote:
Originally Posted by borisbad
Larouche.pub is like the EIR on which it is based. It was started to be directed to businesspeople, people in gov't etc. and toned down the more screeching and simple minded polemics found in New Solidarity and the American Almanac. But if you go back and look at old EIRs you found people writing articles that were more or less based upon some real intelligence or interviews with outside sources, etc. Both sites these days are almost totally and entirely devoted to Lyn and Helga with a few articles by Nancy (mostly simply quoting Il Douche), Debby and a couple of others.

I guess my point is that LaRouchePub seems to have some degree of editorial oversight, whereas LaRouchePac seems to post anything at all that Lyn happens to utter, whether it was designed for public consumption or not. It is as if there is a room full of Lym with scissors and paste, a stack of briefings, Internet access, and no supervision.

09-12-2008, 07:40 AM

earnest_one

Running with Scissors

I monitored a stock message board of a competitor's company for a while and was highly amused when the main poster (StockGirl) said that she bought more shares just when wild "volatility" in the telecom industry broke out.
She ended her post by exclaiming, repeatedly:
"I'm running with scissors, I'm running with scissors..."
The company soon went under so perhaps it was a call for help.
I remember that running with scissors is something you are taught not to do, quite early in life, and anyone seen doing it is usually stopped immediately by concerned friends and family.
"Running with scissors".... Sort of like staying in a cult of personality, albeit there are less warnings about that problem, when young, than about hurting yourself (or others) with sharp objects.
Of course the LYM's scissors are probably similar to the ones we used in 1st grade ++ nothing pointy to harm anybody with.
I hope that everyone, everywhere, has a safe scissors day, now and forever.

09-12-2008, 12:37 PM

eaglebeak

Scissors Crisis In general I think Earnest One is right++the scissors are pretty blunt.
But the people still churning around in this very tiny vortex can and do get harmed, although they can't harm anyone else....
I mean, no one in the world cares whether Lyndon LaRouche is supporting Vladimir Putin's cheesy "Third Rome" imitation++LYMers and LYMettes, I invite you to go back to the period of 1980 forward, read Lyn's sucking-up to Reagan all over the place, and especially read Lyn from Sept. 1, 1983 forward++the day of the shootdown of KAL Airlines Flight 007++after which Lyn initiated a hard right turn. There, LYMers and LYMettes, you will be able to read all about the "Third Rome," including Lyn's interesting assessment that not only weren't the Russian Orthodox Christians, they weren't human.
But I digress.
As I said, no one gives a hoot that Lyn's locked in love's embrace with Putin, but it DOES matter to the LYMers/ettes, and it does matter to the few trapped Baby Boomers, what Lyn does to them internally.
Over the weekend I will post a "Windy Hill Dialogue" which I think shows what the reign of terror in LaRoucheLand can be like++reign of terror against the members, I mean.
Those "Dialogues" reveal way more than just Lyn's dreary self-obsession. No wonder some of the NEC wives are upset.

09-12-2008, 03:05 PM

boomersage

Double entendre

The term "editorial oversight," applied to LaRouche Web sites, has a certain suitable ambiguity.

09-12-2008, 03:54 PM

xlcr4life

2 Attachment(s)

Local Greek, Thanks for the translation. Thierry Meyssan shows up with Helga and Webster in European conferences along with some other Euro LC members. Israel seems to end up being the main culprits for some strange reason in a few countries and books.
We had a member in Europe who writes I think for Le Monde. His name escapes me, but, he wrote something so bizarre about 9/11 for the paper that it was completely removed from the online edition.
Lyn declared himself a terror expert in the 1970s with a twist. All of the eeeevil potential terror plots were somehow revolving around them having him as the ultimate target. Chalk that up for the future mental health studies on this cult done by researchers who will be shocked at the 281 million dollars so far spent on these delusions. The next breakthrough Lyn made with being the world's expert on counter terror, (his words, not mine) is tracing everything back to the British. Even the Oklahoma bombing was connected to the Queen by an interview done with Lyn and a former NECer who I do not wish to embarass with this jibberish.
I still am chuckling with the visual of Jeff running around with sissors, training all of the LYM and LYMettes how to run around with sissors and proclaiming Lyn a genius. Play your cards right and you just may get an invite to frosty snowy slopes as winter approaches. This is straight out of a Monty Python sketch with John Cleese in a bow tie, and black glasses, Jeff leading a cast running around the room with sissors, Nancy is rummaging through the collection box at the Sycolin rd office, Phil U is dancing with cars at an intersection and empty gas cans start falling from the ceiling. Eric Idle or Terry Gilliam could play the Queen of England .
Earnest one, in the Sep 1st issue of Forbes magazine I read a reference to Winstar in an article on Howard Jonas. What a week where I flip channels and find a Zubrin special repeat on TV while that issue of Forbes is on the reading table next to me and Limbaugh is reading a Spengler article to millions.

http://www.forbes.com/business/forbes/2008/0901/044.html
"His company began running into problems around the time he took off to live in Israel for more than a year, starting in 2004. He claims that most of IDT's losses stem from its 2001 acquisition of Winstar, a wireless broadband outfit. He alleges that former management overstated revenues, and he is suing the Blackstone Group (nyse: BX - news - people ) over the advice it gave on the deal."
Many a time I have joked that after spending over 281 million and counting dollars, Lyn and the cult have achieved fame as a butt of jokes or as the punchline. In this web blog, one finds that Lyn and EIR are now an award for bad journalism!
Check out this award and I do mean a real live award issued by this blog to a London journal. I can't seem to copy/paste this, but it would look funny on Laroucheplanet.info
http://www.russiablog.org/2007/10/kr...putin_is_e.php
Wow! If Nancy writes a few more articles , maybe she can win a pair and give Ed some shoes to protect his feet. I dwell on shoes because I had a personal story involving a member sent to me years ago which is so sad, I do not want to use the names. He is still in and a few decades ago was walking barefoot because his sneakers were so worn out that he was bleeding from his feet from exposed metal shanks! This occured in the era of 5 dollar a day stipends and 10K a week Mount Ibykus expenses for Lyn and Helga.
It would all be so funny if it was all made up, but alas, it is all true of the Bizarro World.
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

09-12-2008, 08:02 PM

borisbad

I enjoyed the article with the "Shoe Award". Although I know it referenced Kruschev and his infamous pounding of the shoe at the UN in the 1950s, I also was reminded, when I saw the photograph of the shoe, how we were always instructed by Lyn to wear Goodyear Welts on our deployments, and the stories he would tell in the early days about his experience in the shoe industry. Wonder if the blogger who posted at russiablog.com was aware of the irony.
I also got a kick out of eaglebeak's subject title on running with scissors-"the scissors crisis". As a former Trotskyist before being corrupted in the NCLC I got a kick out of this toying with headlines. Since the scissors crisis arose due to the discrepancy between the costs of industrial goods and farm goods in Russia in the 1920s, we could apply it today as the discrepancy between LYM members earning a $5/daily stipend and the cost of food and gasoline today. As gasoline and food prices go up the relative value of $5/per day goes down, and you get a perfect scissors shaped graph. You don't even need to know Riemannian geometry to graph it!!!
http://www.soviethistory.org/index.p...chka&Year=1924

09-12-2008, 09:24 PM

'''Doran‘‘

Latest from Berkeley

I have seen some active youth members on the streets in Berkeley over the past few weeks since the semester started. One is a big guy with a baseball cap and a dark beard. He looks about 20. They were card-tabling on Telegraph Avenue a few days ago and one of them thrust a DVD in my face with that photo of Young FDR on it that they use a lot now. I was in a hurry and said, "Oh, you're the LaRoucheans, eh?" And he said "Stop the British Empire." I took the DVD and kept walking; later I realized it said "suggested donation $25." I would watch it but I seem to have misplaced it. Has anyone else gotten this DVD?
2.) I am presently teaching Latin at UC Berkeley. I was explaining how in Latin you can BEGIN a sentence with a relative pronoun whereas you cannot in English: you cannot in English begin a sentence with "Which" or "Who." Then I looked at my students and said "Unless you are the crazed conspiracist cult leader Lyndon LaRouche, who does this all the time in his long, bizarre essays in which he references Shakespeare, Gauss, Kant, Aeschylus, and demography in one bizarre swirling article, beginning sentences with "The which" all the time."
I then asked the class if any of them had heard of LL. Two or three (out of only 12!) RAISED THEIR HANDS.
Yesterday one of them came to my office hours and we talked for a long hour. A very nice young fellow, highly intelligent, a motivated student. I was worried that he loved LL. Au contraire, I am happy to report to you all. He told me that he went to one meeting years ago and they then annoyed him by calling him every day around the same time for months. He said he had been pretty creeped out, and needed to be rude to them in order to get them to stop calling him. This fellow does not agree with much of what they say as he is a libertarian, so I doubt very much that he will fall into their camp.
So, anyway, they are around Berkeley. I suppose the best thing to do is to pretend I do not know much about LL, let one of the "yutes" chat me up, NOT give him my phone number but try to get him away from his cohorts and gently either show him factnet or else point out holes in the LL logic. In any case, I will establish myself as a nice, funny, friendly person to whom these poor kids can talk. "You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar," etc.

09-12-2008, 11:55 PM

dave72

Most of us who joined the cult after the mid 70's were not recruited by Larouche.
We were recruited by the older members who were typically educated, articulate and most importantly, not nut jobs. The LL that a new recruit gets from the older members is predigested and much more palatable than the stuff coming directly from LL. After joining, one quickly develops the skill of reinterpreting and softening LL utterances. The biggest parlor trick of the org is the one we did amongst ourselves to convince each other of the rationality of what we were doing. Anyone who hears /sees / reads Larouche and wonders how someone could be impressed by his nonsense needs to appreciate that nobody is reading his stuff and dropping out of reality to join him. I'm not sure that Larouche himself understands this.

09-13-2008, 04:22 AM

earnest_one

Lyn, Howard Jonas, Jews, Winstar, and IDT All (especially XCLR, Eaglebeak, and Scissors Experts Everywhere):
I was firmly positioned as THE OFFICAL contact person in Winstar's Systems Group (where all the real information was stored) during the lead-up phase of Jonas' and IDT's acquisition. I met Jonas, a Hassidic Jew, when he came down to Herndon, the day after the acquisition. I had some words with him, and even shook his hand (note that my hand previously shook Lyn's hand – so I guess I'm the transition Jew).
But the actual connections, associations, conspiracies and intrigues are orders of magnitude higher than anyone might easily imagine.
This is why I have consistently claimed on this board that I know more of the REAL Winstar story than probably anyone else. I KNOW that Lyn LIES through his teeth when he says that we were only a dot.com and that we never produced anything. Square that huge piece of Bull, cube it and then shove it up his a..hole.
We owned and developed more of the spectrum at 28 and 38 Gigahertz using point-to-point (line-of-sight) extremely high-tech digital radios that carried all sorts of traffic between buildings than anyone else in the world. We also had contracts with the Government: the NSA, Justice Department and FBI, and some of their traffic was transmitted via our radios and carried on our network, or portions of our network.
When 9-11 destroyed the emergency information infrastructure in lower Manhattan we came in and set up communications links within a few hours – links that helped save lives.
Of course radios are based on the theory of electromagnetism, and here, the colossal advance was made by Maxwell++his famous equations (some of them were already known, but he put them together into a coherent whole). Of course Lyn says that Maxwell (a Brit) was a scientific fraud, so I guess radios must be tainted too, even digital ones. Indeed, digital must be worse, because that area of information technology (at least in connecto theory) implies EVIL and John Von Neumann and Norbert Weiner – people who despise the human brain. Digital is everything that's rotting your insides out.
Jonas and IDT (who have close connections with Israeli intelligence) owned MOST of the fiber optics used to carry telephone conversations between the USA and Europe (and elsewhere). If you buy a calling card for cheap transatlantic calls, then your voice ++ optical pulses++will likely ride on their fiber network (unless he sold it off since 2002).
I think it's possible that when Clinton was reported to say, during the Lewinsky affair, that a "foreign" intelligence service was listening in on his calls, that he was speaking about the Mossad. I wonder whether Jonas played some role in the whole story too. Speculation? Yes, surely. But many wild things go on everywhere, all the time and it is virtually impossible to know much at the upper levels unless you are one of the players or have solid inside info from a player or a high-up technician.
The connection between telephones and national security at the highest levels of America was humorously depicted in "The President's Analyst" a truly first-rate movie with James Coburn playing the Analyst. In the end, a stark truth emerges: The telephone company runs the world because they can (or do) listen in on everyone's calls. How apropos!
Jonas is suing Blackstone; but another group, The Impala Partners is also named in the suit, at least according to a Bloomberg News article published last summer whose link is now inactive, although I have the text to post, if anyone asks.
Blackstone acted as IDT's investment advisors prior to the sale of Winstar. But the Impala partners served as the bankruptcy court-appointed restructuring officers: the people that come in and hack up a company, shredding jobs and people's lives, in order for Wall Street and the Banks to recoup some of "their" losses.
XLCR: Lyn burnt through a lot of other people's money pursuing his delusions (I think your estimates vary between 250 million and 281 mil), but at the time of Winstar's bankruptcy, we were losing 3 million dollars a day!
Note that Winstar's sale was actually an auction-type affair that was supposed to take place in open court but was actually accomplished during a back room interlude, by a Federal judge in a Wilmington Delaware Courthouse. I was there, that day, at the official moment of the sale, even won a $10 bet with a guy from Impala who thought it would NOT be sold but would be completely dissolved, via Chapter 7 bankruptcy proceedings.
Previously, I had made "undercover" trips to Wilmington to transmit "inside" info of wild malfeasance on the part of Winstar's leaders to contacts on the banking committee overlooking developments. To do this, I dealt with teams of lawyers, all over town. Walking in off the street (dressed in a suit) and without even giving my name – by only saying that I had inside info – I was invited into huge rooms with tens of lawyers, already working on a host of Winstar legal cases, but who sat at the edges of their seats when I gave my "presentation". I took these trips on behalf of a high-level Winstar executive, who was attempting a coup d'état.
But more: As the official contact person in Systems, I supplied Impala with all of their requests for information. Note that "The Systems Group" around the time of bankruptcy was a HUGE operation employing 700 people, with a budget of $120 million per year split between two sections: Operational Systems Support (OSS) and Business Systems Support (BSS – similar to bull****).
OSS was tied to the physical reality of the network, while BSS was tied to billing and finance and MOST of the madness) The raw square footage devoted to all the computers involved – computers that stored about a hundred gigantic Oracle databases, telemetry from the 38 Gigahertz digital radios around the country, traffic, timings and switch closure information from the enormous Lucent 5ESS switches that performed the actual connections for local and long distance switching located inside 30 US cities, Internet traffic data services, private line, and ATM services – all this stuff…. the actual square footage of all these computers, located in super-cooled rooms, probably occupied a football field, certainly half of one.
The Impala Group ONLY made money if they negotiated a deal so, once they took the job, they were biased in their approach, something analogous to a personal injury lawyer who looks into the prospects of winning a case, very carefully – especially if it is large ++ before deciding to either take or reject it.
I dealt with those people everyday. They had EVERY chance to hear the true status of Winstar from me (and another bright guy in finance who attempted to present solid analytical reports) but their ears were focused more on the bull**** artists. I was amazed how easily the con-artists got their attention, surely in an attempt to keep their jobs.
In a deep sense, Winstar was similar to the NCLC: A military like hierarchy, with many levels of people, often working at odds with one another (group infighting), and with information flowing from the bottom to the top while being carefully filtered at each new, upper stage, so that bad news was eliminated. Finally, at the top, only "Happy Talk" arrived. They were very Happy at the Top. Be Happy, Talk Happy. Don't Worry.
Try telling Lyn the truth about his org or their finances and see how "gracious" and "welcoming" he becomes. Tell him he is confused about Newton and Maxwell and that he has ****ed all over two of the greatest minds ever to walk this earth. Note how interested he will become in learning NEW information with his completely OPEN mind.
Again, Impala had every chance to find out about Winstar BEFORE they took the job (remember, they worked on commission paid only if he company survived or was sold). But bright guys (like Richard Feynman, who investigated the Shuttle Disaster) know that the REAL stories are located, not with management, but with the workers, the engineers, and the honest scientists.
Impala either willfully participated in fraud or were incompetent or deluded or simply made some honest mistakes.
I did my job but they turned their hearing off when I described the ACTUAL structure of the place and, especially, who the top con-artists were. Many people fed them wildly dishonest information. "Putting Lipstick on a Pig" has recently been in the news, but during 2001-2002 in Herndon, the practice was flourishing 24/7/365.
But more: Once Jonas bought Winstar, he and his top assistants issued all kinds of wonderful "happy-talk-type" pronouncements about our fantastic potential and that, working together, we would do great things and go great places. Better times were coming for all of us, the one in ten workers who still had jobs at Winstar after the capital markets collapsed and we went bankrupt. 7,000 employees reduced to 700 in one year is quite a drop, but nothing compared to the stock price collapse: from $70 a share on NASDAQ to a penny; then to zero.
I tried to talk with these guys++increasing numbers of Hassidic Jews appeared in Herndon, all wearing Yarmulkes, a funny sight in corporate America++but they blew me off when it got to the serious side: how the Systems and the databases where so f...ked up (because we grew too fast and nobody linked the database fields) that, without great and thoughtful efforts it was virtually impossible to determine anything much with certainty and that one had to be very careful dealing with people who provided reports based on only one database or one set of resources. Besides, some of the database info was willfully corrupted, to show Wall Street that we had more people on our radio network than we actually had. But to squeeze any semblance of truth out, one needed to master 100 different systems and figure out every possible way to check and cross-check data in order to arrive at a physical truth-type reality. Is this customer real? Where do they actually get services and what physical route provides these services?
For example, at high up meetings that I participated in, a technical guy would go to the board and draw a line between two major cities stating that we were paying $100,000 a month on a single connecting circuit for section of our backbone network, but that we did NOT know if ANY traffic was on this transmission line.
Closer investigation yielded that it was actually a "virtual" circuit (simply a number assigned to us for billing purposes by another carrier) riding on some other circuit (again another number linked to the guys who we paid) that rode on a real circuit –an actual physical piece of fiber supported by a vast system of booster amplifiers and switching nodes, etc.
When you are losing 3 million dollars a day and trying to cut costs, the obvious question was: Why on earth are we paying a $100,000 bill every month if the circuit isn't being used? Worse: Can we determine if this circuit is needed, if customer traffic is riding on it? Simple questions that became very difficult to answer, for a vast number of highly technical reasons, in addition to simple neglect and fraud.
Management was aghast – even though THEY had ordered vast duplications during our buildup (two or three of everything was needed), they paid little attention to ongoing bills, because they were only interested in boosting the stock price, cashing in options and then getting the hell out of town.
It was hilarious to see the COO (Chief Operating Officer) lose his mind when presented with the above case… hilarious even amidst the doom and gloom of real people losing real jobs because management's goals were not consonant with the long-term survivability of the enterprise.
After years of hearing only happy talk, the COO was now face-to-face with reality, and sweating bullets. A year and a half earlier, I was there in NYC as he and the CEO presided over a huge meeting/party at a fancy NYC hotel, where the CEO and the COO were pulling revenue projections from a hat (literally, as a joke) and talking like Lyn in terms of delusion, saying that Winstar would soon be the biggest corporation in the world (the merging of content, with broadband, with… with… with…. ). At this party the ballroom had 50 different chefs (NO exaggeration) every few meters, serving specialty foods for the two thousand guests. An orgy of spending (of other people's money!) – another similarity with Lyn. Perhaps he was jealous. The original CEO and COO and later Jonas were all Jews. Lyn is/was simply envious of the British…ah, I mean Jewish, technology and lifestyle and their advanced "parlor tricks"
Finally++and I'll post details far later, as I am neglecting more serious issues by such a long post++JONAS himself said that his purchase of Winstar was such a tremendous deal that it would be looked at years later as akin to the famous purchase of Manhattan in 1626 for only 60 Guilders (about $1,000).
The exact quote that Jonas gave, and gave repeatedly, is extremely similar to the above and at the time of the Winstar purchase it was plastered all over major newspapers such as The Wall Street Journal, The Washington Post, and The NY Times).

09-13-2008, 10:48 PM

howie

I found two stray copies of the latest Larouche pamphlet, "Your Enemy George Soros". It is like seeing deer droppings on a nature trail ++ evidence of a deployment yesterday and/or today. Inflationary pressures are evident: it is thinner than what was common a few years' back. The title also suggests 1984 and the Ten Minute Hate. Also, It is also out of date, in as much as the three (four?) articles in it have the underlying thread of being part of the Larouche campaign to elect Hillary Clinton in her match-up against the Soros - Dean - Gore Democratic machine, or if you will the Raskob - Smith - Morgenthau Democratic machine of the 1920s into 1932.
All of the material in it has been available online for a while, though the only one I've read was the Steinberg "FDR 1932" item, which ends with the sentence about how even though Larouche is not running, the one thing that the Oligarch fears is the influence of Lyndon Larouche. Leafing through this thin little publication, I gnash my teeth at one paragraph from the George Soros article relating to the creation of moveon.org which places moveon.org as an enemy of the Clintons (and onto the George Soros / Al Gore faction of the party) by pointing to its creation as an entity that wanted to punish the Clintons by "Censoring" them back in 1998, which is kind of accurate, but false in that its inception was an online petition by two Clinton supporters urging Congress to "Censor Clinton" and then (ahem) "MOVE ON", as opposed to Impeach and the goal of removing him from office. (Typical disclaimer for any posts at factnet: I am offering no opinion of any type relating to moveon, then or now, or any politician mentioned and blah
de blah. Maybe they are all Fascists; maybe they are all Communists; maybe they are all Oligarchs ++ that is beside the point.) Trying to shuffle this blip of dishonesty, undoubtedly not even the most egregious item (as pointed out already, how long was Soros a "Nazi Collaborator"?), I have to position myself in the LYM ++ younger than I (and probably paying less attention to current events besides), and as such the "Civic Memory" maybe a bit cloudy on Clinton's Impeachment such that this could be peddled past them.
The picture of FDR on the back - cover, the vitality of Youth, I suppose, on the cusp of greatness which was, of course, his defeat of the Fascist Morgenthaus and Smiths in 1932, and then in World War Two leading that epic defeat of the armies of the Fascist Winston Churchill, as shown in the docu-drama at larouchepac's website and youtube, 1932. (That is, the orchestrated coup where Truman took the reigns from Henry Wallace. Another bit of dishonesty, I already posted why ++ and to point it out seems trivial, as I know if I bothered to watch the entire thing these historical inaccuracies and/or out of context history would pop up one after another, even if latched onto items of historical relevance. I reiterate that I feel absurd pointing out particular inaccuracies and mendacities in the propaganda released by Larouche, because it's just kind of like pointing to one clump of sand in the Sahara.

09-13-2008, 11:14 PM

howie

One more note: the covers have changed since the days of the NCLC, where they tended to look, in the mileu of left-wing pamphlets of the day, like this:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tamiment/1129604700/
(from this: http://joelschlosberg.blogspot.com/2...d-at-last.html , from the blog for Reason Magazine.)

09-14-2008, 06:44 AM

xlcr4life

The usual debate one can have in LaroucheTown is who will succeed Lyn when he finally kicks the buckets. I am wondering if this is a a secondary question where the real question is where to put Lyn when he finally dies? You do not have Club Ibykus to make his and hers mausoleums. Do you do the US or Germany for the plot? How do the LYM and LYMettes pay tribute and sign over more checks to him if they can't afford the gas to drive to the final plot?
Maybe the solution is one I joked about last year when I first noticed the intense support Lyn has from a wing of the cyronics community.
Don't drive to Lyn, drive Lyn to you!
As we used to say in the LC, "it's obvious!"
Lyn has spent over 281 million dollars that we know of to persue his delusions. For that 281 million dollars it looks like he may have a deal in kind with having himself frozen for later reanimation. Why else would Lyn, the "Philosopher King" , not have a fantastic supporter named Phil Ossifur secretly plan to freeze himself for adoring LYM and LYMettes?
Lyn could be stacked in the back of a laroucheMobile with Zeke as the driver and Jeff riding shotgun from town to town. Howie says that the latest lit is pretty thin. There is no way Lyn is slowing down with his opuses to save humanity. There are plenty of new leaders he has to have a dialogue with and present them with razor sharp writing for them to follow and rule by. What I think is happeneing is that Lyn is holding back on publications and doing something like "Books on tape" where he reads a hundred page opus to be recorded. Once Lyn is dead, he is quickly frozen and a sort of coin operated mechanism is installed where for 4 quarters ,the CD plays with Lyn reading a few pages . You can have Lyn give classes in the remaining offices and raise money to cover gas.
What triggered all of this is a recent blog entry by Phil Ossifur where the LYM can admire what all of their hard work and sacrifice attract and nurture.
Enjoy LYM and LYMettes, shortening your life span is well worth it for this .
http://futurenautaugust08.blogspot.c...r-totally.html
Thurs., Sept. 12, 2008
"Real Jew News is back... excellent read.
Over the past month of August 2008, at the late age of 51, I suddenly woke up to the very real idea that Jews think different. I think after reading Rense for the past several years++ and not Real Jew News, it's just beginning to dawn on me that it's okay to look at Jews in a crtical way. It's been taboo for reasons that have to do with cultural brainwashing. Larouche doesn't label Jews but he does point to Classical Humanist Jews++ and the British Empire. If you're looking at or in cryonics, you should study and understand Jews- whether you're a Christian or a Jew, or consider yourself secular. Secularism is, in fact, a form of Jewish thought. [+]
CADC are Jewish++ obvioulys++ using the "anti-defamation" line against me++ falsely++ just as the ADL uses that against all their enemies. Ettinger is Jewish++ Dave Pizer is too++ or claims to be. I found out a short time ago that Saul is a Jew++ or claims to be++ duh.. with a name like Saul, you'd think. My view is that cryonics has been Jewified. And all along, I was thinking that people were basically Christian in their thinking of their fellow man++ stupid me++ because that's a very dangerous assumption to make. A lot of Jews are Talmudic in thier thinking++ apparently++ and then there are True Torah jews who aren't so bad as I understaznd it.
Christians, Jews and Muslims are supposed to believe that man is higher than animal++ this is the key factor that makes these religions useful social and political belief systems. In ancient uneducated and illiterate societies that was neccessary to do to make that distinciton. The typical talmudic Jew however takes it a step futher and believes he's a higher species of human than the rest of the humans. Bzzzt. False. There is only one species... of human. That is... human. The Jews who beleive God favors Isreal are misinterpreting Isreal++ it was meant as a phrase to indicate believers... so God favors believers... but there again... it doesn't lead to speciation. Transhumanism is completely Jewish, in my analysis++ because it attempts to specieate humans and never distinguisihes between man and animal... so all of Transhumanism is no good.
In the cryonics community, we keep wondering why more people don't join. The answer is is that most people are Christian in this country and Christians can smell "kosher" a mile away. Kosher is a big hoax by the way... I looked into it. I always thought it applied to certain ways of prepping meat... but it's grown into a big scam where there are kickbacks to rabbis. it's really incredible. Christians wake up!!! The jews are trying to take over. Henry Ford warned about it. I always thought that his warning was silly++ but it turns out that there's more to it than I thought. Circumcision actually began in jewish communities a long time ago too++ genital mutilation. The entire scheme of things in the mind of a Jew is entirely bogus, outdated, ancient tribal junik that Jesus++ whetther myth or real++ the ideas promulgated by Jesus Christ++ an IMPORTANT myth++ replaced.
TAGS++ Jew, Transhumanism"


Note that "Rense" is The Jeff Rense Program
http://www.rense.com/
where Tarpley, EIR stories, Lyn and Jeff S have a home.

Forget our previous mantra of sending Tanks down State St. in Chicago. Lyn's New Deal is to send nitrogen tanks down the Leesburk Bypass to LaroucheTown.
Now it all makes sense

xlcrlife@hotmail.com

09-14-2008, 02:30 PM

eaglebeak

Hard Times on Sick-o-Lyn Road*

Wow, something's afoot in Lyn-burg. When was the last time you saw Lyn making fun of Jeff Steinberg? In a briefing?? In a briefing lead???
Check it out. The Aug. 3 briefing, leading with one of those grandly named Windy Hill Dialogues.
Here we go. And remember: This is the briefing lead. (As always, it's verbatim. However, I have deleted some of the tiresome sycophancy of the LYMers—the ubiquitous MALE and FEMALE.)
MORNING BRIEFING
Sunday, Aug 3, 2008
Windy Hill Dialogues, Saturday, August 2, 2008
PANURGE TO HARVARD COMES
LYN: [starts mid-sentence] … This thing, Harvard, will kill him, because he's associated with Harvard, you see? What's wrong with Obama? Poor fellow, he went to Harvard! [laughter]….
We call 'em two-inchers. Harvard Yard: two inches. [Talk about revealing one's fears and obsessions. Yoicks.]
MALE: Lyn, it's like the guy in The Ice Man [sic] Cometh, who's the Harvard Law student—
LYN: Shhh!! [cracks up] Don't say that Harvard! [laughs]….
What's Harvard Law? A yard is two inches! [laughter]
GERRY: Lyn, in the Washington Post, they had this exposé of what kind of Constitutional issues he [Obama—ed.] was studying in Harvard. This is true, I'm not making it up. In a same sex marriage, who has the right to the fetus, who actually owns the fetus. This is the kind of Constitutional issues he was studying at Harvard! It's true!
LYN: And the question is: Who owns Obama?
GERRY: From his fetus forward.
LYN: No, he's a fetus. He's a fetus that was turned loose prematurely. It accounts for his intellectual damage.
Okay. Who present is missing?
RICK: Except Jeff?
LYN: Jeff! You're missing! You're among the missing!
GERRY: He called to make sure I was coming today. [Lyn laughs.] It's true! I come every week! But he specifically called and says, "You going to this?" "I come every week, what're you talking about?"
LYN: Jeff actually revealed his dashing off. He wrote a thing for the briefing, which is –
GERRY: Oh yeah, I saw it.
LYN: ++which I killed. [crosstalk] He was rushing off to get something. He was so afraid of his wife, he couldn't think! [laughs] it does happen to people sometimes, you know?
GERRY: I wouldn't know about that. [laughter]
LYN: OH BOY!! Lies! Lies! [Capitalization in original shows Lyn in the grip of full-fledged mania.]
GERRY: this is not being taped is it?
LYN: You're taped already: I gotcha!
GERRU: This is not being taped, right? I can say these++?
RICK: Of course.
LYN: Of course it's being taped. Of course it's being taped. I'm a free spirit! I say what I think needs to be said. I don't worry about who hears it. The more the merrier! I consider myself accountable for whatever I say. I'm pleased to be accountable for what I say. Not ashamed of anything. [That's for sure. Shameless.]
GERRY: I mean, I take that back, about my wife, okay?
LYN: Huh?
GERRY: I take that back about my wife. [laughter]
MALE: Take that part out!
GERRY: I meant it ironically.
LYN: Everything stands! [laughter] It's on the record. We don't have any cheating here. When we represent an account of our meeting, it's a true account, of everything said! And GERRY: I was just joking.
LYN: And Tarrajna's enforcing it today. She's going [sic] a computer going, she's got everything on there. There's no way it's not going to get out.
TARRAJNA: I've already typed it out, Gerry.
GERRY: Yeah, I know.
LYN: Anyway, look. The time for bull**** is over. [I'll say.] Including bull**** among the youth. Either we succeed, or you're not going to have civilization, and this is what you should learn by looking at the current turn in the U.S. campaigns, and then looking at what you see in Europe….
[several paragraphs of gibberish on Karadzic, Russia, World War III, the Balkans, and why Rachel screwed up in her analysis.]
And it means we've got to cut all the bull**** out, here. No more bull**** here. I'm going to crack down as much as possible on bull****. We've had a certain amount of it, that drifts around in the publications [publications? You have publications?], and so forth, the briefings and so forth: It's gotta stop, right now. We have no time to waste our time with this usual bull****. With somebody's "opinion." If the opinion is stupid, I'll call it stupid. [And even more so if it isn't.] If they publish it, I'll say, "well, this is a stupid opinion, published by so-and-so." Huh? Because we're going to have to get the stupidity out of the system. And we're going to have to say the things that have to be said, whether somebody likes it, or not! Hmmm?
The question is truth. And the question is significance. If it's significant, it goes! If it's truthful, it goes. If it's bull****, it's killed. If it sneaks out, I denounce it! If it's not published, I'll denounce people who don't publish it, if it's true. [Are you following this?]
We gotta get—there's no more bull****: The world's in a certain situation, we're on the verge of the greatest collapse in all modern history. [Just like every day for 35 years, since Lyn discovered his magic formula.] And it's global. And anybody who has a different opinion should shut up. Don't waste our time. They can go off and say it to the bushes, they can say it down the toilet bowl, wherever they want to say it. But don't put it in our publications! [laughs] And if it's important, it goes out, whether somebody likes it or not. Hmm? Simple.
Truth! No more fakery. And we have a lot of fakery on this issue, of sensitivity. Some people don't like it, some people will disagree with me., screw them. I hope they enjoy it. [laughter][Oh, well said, Lyn!]
And that's what we've come to: We're now at a point where the entire system is going down. There's no alternative. There's none! [Uh, wait a sec++] It's us! I made the proposal. My proposal is necessary. If that's not done, the system is going to go down. Civilization is finished, if that's not done. Hmm? That's the truth.
[to be continued.]
Comments
1. The first part of this "briefing," on Obama, is gobbledy-gook, with the exception of the self-revelatory remarks about two inches being a Harvard Yard. Lyn's fixations on potency and related topics, always embarrassing, aren't improving with age.
2. The section on Jeff—Jeff writing something that was no good and had to be killed; Jeff "dashing off" (that was no doubt the Florida vacation that got him that marvelous tan, as I noted in an earlier post, and we all know how Lyn feels about vacations—other people's); and Jeff being "so afraid of his wife"—all this is a big, big deal in the Labor Committee; especially the reference to Michele. For decades, Lyn has not made fun of Jeff and Michele in any way, in public at least. The classic Lyn formulation about the wife is a mega-insult to Michele, a pretty harsh "thank-you" for her 35 years of Praetorian Guard duty.
I gather Jeff and Michele aren't too happy about any of it.
These developments coincide, more or less, with Lyn's "festschrift" for Helga's birthday (along the lines of "Helga's wonderful because she recognizes how wonderful I am"), and with the dropping of Jeff's name from the erstwhile Steinberg Report on www.larouchepac.com.
Wowser! Helga in the ascendancy? Jeff, get out now. The post-LaRouche Labor Committee was always a train wreck— now it looks as if it won't be your train wreck. And spill some beans on your way out. Get immunity for yourselves.
3. Does Lyn know another word besides "bull****"? The author of "The Dialectics of Style Content" sure has a gift for language.
4. The "banter" with Gerry (Rose)—This is agonizing. Poor Gerry is so terrified that Suzanne will be angry with him for one mild little joke.
So couldn't Lyn arrange to have that exchange deleted? To save Gerry with Suzanne? Not Lyn—the "free spirit" is a consummate sadist who loves to watch his underlings squirm. So he insists that it go in the lead of the briefing. What a guy.
Yep, he says what needs to be said, is never ashamed of anything, considers himself accountable, blah blah—
Let's see. Did he take responsibility for saying the Queen of England pushes drugs? No, he denied it.
Did he admit in later years that he had called Bill Clinton unfit to run for dog-catcher, back in 1992? Nope. Try bringing that up if you want to see a fit of stammering, sputtering denial.
If you asked him today, would he admit to having supported George Bush the elder in 1988? To having run real, honest-to-goodness dirty tricks against the Democrat that year?
If you asked him today, would he rave about John McCain as the Manchurian Candidate? Not so much, since Obama has become his Feinbild politically these days.
How about more personal stuff? Ask Lyn if he ever used to rant on about Hillary Clinton's fat ankles. Ask Lyn to tell the whole organization the things he used to say about Nina. Or Tony Chaitkin. Or Will Wertz. Or—on and on and on.
We all know the things he used to say about Ed++. (It's interesting how restrained he's been about his former wives and lady friends. My guess is that they know things he doesn't want revealed.)
How about that briefing lead for April 11, 2007? How about all the things he said about Ken Kronberg? "The more the merrier?" "I don't worry about who hears it?"
I guess it was Lyn's willingness to take responsibility for his words, to be accountable for them, that induced the organization to go crazy when somehow, the April 11, 2007 briefing lead made its way to the Internet.
"It was stolen!" a press release written by Michele screamed. "It was [former NEC member] N++-!," Barbara Boyd insisted. (I've meant to mention it for years, Babs—that diminished capacity for intelligence and analysis. Probably why Bobby Gr was still your trusted source after he had obviously left the organization.)
And of course Babs was deployed to interrogate Molly Kronberg about it all.
Because Lyn was willing to stand behind his words, and to be accountable.
And that's why Nancy Spannaus said, on April 13, I think it was—"But that wasn't supposed to be in the briefing" (meaning the references to Ken, PMR, suicide…) Great, Nance. We all feel so much better now.
My experience with Lyn is that he NEVER says to people's faces what he says behind their backs, and that he is constitutionally INCAPABLE of being accountable for anything.
But that's just my assessment.
Gerry, what do you think?


T/H to former NEC member ABC for the wordplay.

09-14-2008, 08:50 PM

candor

Disposition of the Remains

I suggest we have a contest to determine the best way to dispose of LaRouche's remains. For example, we could cremate him (except for the brain, which we could donate to comedy) and sprinkle the ashes into the food for Helga's dogs. We could otherwise embalm him, ship him off to the LSE, and put him in Jeremy Bentham's cabinet where they could have a staring match for eternity. In any event, I look forward to this holiday.
SO if two inches is the joke, I'm guessing that three is the reality.

09-14-2008, 09:09 PM

boomer70

Quote:
Originally Posted by eaglebeak
I consider myself accountable for whatever I say. I'm pleased to be accountable for what I say.

it is Hube's lack of accountability to his "colleagues" which is the fundamental problem of the org.

09-16-2008, 12:20 AM

'''Doran‘‘

LaRouche on facebook

There are several anti-LaRouche "clubs' on facebook now, and also a Justice for Jeremiah group who sent me this today:
Subject: Justice for Jeremiah Forum 17th October 2008
Please read below about a forum to be held in October, obviously getting to Berlin and time off work is extremely difficult but it'd be great if we could bring as many people as possible to represent Jerry's friends and supporters. It might be possible to do it for less than £60 so if you happen to be around/have a great boss/really just want to come, then get in touch.
Rosie x
On the 17th October 2008 there will be a Public Forum in Berlin which will include a panel discussion about the dangers of the Larouche organisation. Speaking on the panel will be:
Hans- Christian Stroebele (Member of the German Parliament, Bündnis 90/Grüne),
Dr. Rudi Viz ( Member of the British Parliament, Labour),
Erica Duggan, Hugo Duggan whose son died under unclear circumstances connected to the LaRouche Organisation,
An ex-member (former member for many years of the LaRouche Organisation),
Dr. Rainer Fromm (journalist with the ARD), moderator and spokesman for the affected families
Dr Matthew Feldman. Senior Lecturer in History, editor UK.
It will be held at the House of Democracy and Human Rights in Berlin.
Politicians, Political experts, affected families and an ex-member will be addressing the public jointly for the first time and talking about the totalitarian and anti-democratic character of the LaRouche Organisation.
They will be presenting parliamentary activities in Germany and Great Britain, reporting on experiences, assessments and new investigations into anti-Semitic tendencies of the LaRouche Organisation.
Erica and Hugo Duggan will speak about the case of her son and explain why it is urgently necessary to investigate and shed light without any reservation on the circumstances that led to his violent death following a 'cadre training session' of the L.R. Youth Movement.
There will be the opportunity for a discussion following the contributions by the panel members.
Obviously everyone is very busy and it is asking a little more than a comedy night and a tenner but it would be amazing if we could have representation from as many as Jerry's friends and campaign supporters as possible. Please contact me as soon as possible if you are interested.
+++++++++++++++++++-

09-16-2008, 04:56 AM

eaglebeak

"Where First They Burn Books..." Someone sent me the following link recently++
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bH7qk7mkjfw
Very useful++the book-burning proclivities of Lyn and his LaRouche Jugendbewegung are plenty sinister, and evoke in many ways the Hitler Youth and those great bonfires of books of the early 1930s.
And of course, with the LaRouche Youth as with the Hitler Youth, the poor zombie creatures haven't read Word One in the books they commit to the flames, whether figuratively or literally.
The quote from Heine at the end of the clip is useful too++"where they begin by burning books, they will finally burn men."
It happened precisely that way in Nazi Germany, to Heine's books, and then to Heine's people.
The only reason LaRouche doesn't have his victim-followers running around burning books today, is that he's terrified of being arrested for something.
Which reminds me++a few days ago, in a discussion of a briefing bit I haven't yet posted, an "outsider" wondered, "Isn't it time to go to the Justice Department?"
The problem would lie in having to remind the Justice Department of just who Lyn is++but if we could get past that, the results would be a hoot.

09-16-2008, 02:28 PM

poe

Quote:
Originally Posted by eaglebeak

Comments
1. The first part of this "briefing," on Obama, is gobbledy-gook, with the exception of the self-revelatory remarks about two inches being a Harvard Yard. Lyn's fixations on potency and related topics, always embarrassing, aren't improving with age.
2. The section on Jeff—Jeff writing something that was no good and had to be killed; Jeff "dashing off" (that was no doubt the Florida vacation that got him that marvelous tan, as I noted in an earlier post, and we all know how Lyn feels about vacations—other people's); and Jeff being "so afraid of his wife"—all this is a big, big deal in the Labor Committee; especially the reference to Michele. For decades, Lyn has not made fun of Jeff and Michele in any way, in public at least. The classic Lyn formulation about the wife is a mega-insult to Michele, a pretty harsh "thank-you" for her 35 years of Praetorian Guard duty.
I gather Jeff and Michele aren't too happy about any of it.
These developments coincide, more or less, with Lyn's "festschrift" for Helga's birthday (along the lines of "Helga's wonderful because she recognizes how wonderful I am"), and with the dropping of Jeff's name from the erstwhile Steinberg Report on www.larouchepac.com.
Wowser! Helga in the ascendancy? Jeff, get out now. The post-LaRouche Labor Committee was always a train wreck— now it looks as if it won't be your train wreck. And spill some beans on your way out. Get immunity for yourselves.
3. Does Lyn know another word besides "bull****"? The author of "The Dialectics of Style Content" sure has a gift for language.
4. The "banter" with Gerry (Rose)—This is agonizing. Poor Gerry is so terrified that Suzanne will be angry with him for one mild little joke.
So couldn't Lyn arrange to have that exchange deleted? To save Gerry with Suzanne? Not Lyn—the "free spirit" is a consummate sadist who loves to watch his underlings squirm. So he insists that it go in the lead of the briefing. What a guy.



I can see it now, 10 million leaflets on ,"The War of the Roses".

09-18-2008, 02:41 AM

poe

Credit Where (Partial) Credit is Due It is pretty clear now that the financial system is in the middle of the beakdown crisis that LaRouche has been warning about. He did over-exaggerate (by decades) how quickly it would happen, but those who claimed that the system was sound or that the problem is merely cyclical were way off. He was right, and we were right, to warn people that this was coming.
As a result, Lyn has been churning out statements, briefing leads, and press releases claiming that since he was right about this, that he was and is right about everything, including the election. Well, if that is the case, then Senator Hillary Clinton (she is still a Senator isn't she? ) will respond to this crisis by immediately introducing his "Home Owner's and Bank Protection Act" into the Senate. If she does this, then I will owe Hillary and LaRouche both a big apology. That's not going to happen though.

09-18-2008, 03:36 AM

candor

Endgame

If one had a genuine political and economic program, this week's events would provide a golden opportunity for organizing. The funny thing is the LYM, though they will get more people crowded about the card-table shrine than usual, will have no coherent response to the question, "what can I do?" What onlookers will be asked to do is to give money and time to get others to give money and time to get still others to give money and time ... all to adulate LaRouche and to keep his Leonore rolling in cash.
As to LaRouche being "right", once again it's the truism that even a stopped clock tells the correct time twice a day. And with LaRouche shuffling off this mortal coil in soiled linens, he now probably doesn't much care about the economic plight of people, if he ever did. Just get enough to keep the lights on - until they go out.

09-18-2008, 06:43 AM

earnest_one

Breakdown Crisis Poe wrote:
"It is pretty clear now that the financial system is in the middle of the beakdown [sic] crisis that LaRouche has been warning about."
The market crashed in 1929, almost 79 years ago. To my knowledge, LaRouche has been warning of a breakdown crisis since the early 1970s, at least 37 years ago, perhaps earlier, perhaps in 1969 (I don't have the exact facts, statements, and history close by for easy reference).
I simply note a few things:
1. Since the early 70's LaRouche's breakdown crisis warnings have taken many forms. The only constant that I know of is Nixon's abandonment of the gold standard. Other than that, the cause of the IMMINENT CRISIS has been many things, none of which have happened, to-date, in terms of a real crisis (e.g., the cost of bread going up to $100,000 in a week).
2. 79 years minus 37 years is 40 years ++ so LaRouche has been warning of an IMMINENT collapse for almost half of the time period since the 29 crash.
3. Capitalism has always had various breakdown crises. They are periodic. We have been due for a big collapse, whether it will be worldwide is an open question, still, although matters could change in an instant.
I, for one, give him credit for bringing attention to specific problems, but NOT for his forecasting abilities about a breakdown crisis. If he had said, years ago, that the system is basically unjust and corrupt and that, eventually, there will be another collapse, then he would get considerably more credit from me. I cannot comment on the fixed versus floating exchange rate history and what role this played and/or is now playing or not playing; it's a complicated subject indeed and I simply haven's studied the issue.
One thing is clear, however: Greed is more of a problem than anything else, and Jesus spoke out about the money changers well before Lyn, so I see nothing basically new concerning the fundamental problem ++ people trying to make money without working for it ++ by stealing it from others and by complicated, immoral schemes (hey, that shoe fits LynCo, so he sinks even lower in my opinion, quite frankly).
Surely, if some truly genuine breakdown does occur, he will probably be carted off to the funny farm (if he's not already there, at Windy Hill) because the closer reality comes to being in concert with HIS latest basic breakdown crisis theme, the more delusional he will become about his role as the brightest man alive and the savior of MANkind (not humankind).
My solution? Simply anoint him King for Eternity, give him a golden cane, fancy hat, and a 24 hour-a-day cable news channel. That's seems relatively easy to arrange compared to his so-called concrete proposals.

09-18-2008, 03:28 PM

howie

Besides which, how can a fully owned pawn of the Rothschilds ++ Hillary Clinton ++ endorse the "Larouche Plan?":
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/09/17/a-democratic-baroness-endorses-mccain-palin-ticket//
Ms. de Rothschild, a personal friend and prominent backer of Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton and a member of the committee that helped draft the Democratic Party's platform, announced on Wednesday that while she intended to keep her party affiliation, she would not be voting for Senator Barack Obama.
"It is the last place in the world I thought I would be in October 2008," Ms. de Rothshchild, the New Jersey-born businesswoman who married into the British banking family, said at a press conference in Washington, D.C. organized by the McCain campaign.
+.................
Unless it's the Larouche / Rothschild Plan, as I guess those were the two great backers of the Hillary Clinton presidential run.

09-18-2008, 04:25 PM

shadok

crash

Quote:
Originally Posted by candor
As to LaRouche being "right", once again it's the truism that even a stopped clock tells the correct time twice a day .

I agree. Larouche has warned of the end of capitalism since his Marxist days and "forecasted" ritualistically a "depression worse than the 1930s" on a yearly basis for the last 40 years. So he was "right" in 1987 as he appears to be "right" in 2008... and like a stopped clock, he was wrong all the other years.
The sad thing is that the thrilled larouchies who have short memory (if any) will conclude larouche s being vindicated and they will probably waste an additional decade of their precious lives in this lunacy they wouldn't have were there no financial crash in 2008... Of course it could have been 2009 or 2033... The fact is that "forecasting" bad news is the safest bet. Anyone could "forecast" a new "Chernobyl", a plane crash or a "Global warming". Bad news have all a certain degree of probability. Entropy is everywhere.
But there is a fundamental difference between coincidence and reality. Indeed the stopped clock tells the "exact time" twice a day whereas a clock which delays never tells the time "exactly"...
Which clock would you prefer?

09-18-2008, 04:28 PM

poe

Group Sex

Quote:
Originally Posted by candor
If one had a genuine political and economic program, this week's events would provide a golden opportunity for organizing. The funny thing is the LYM, though they will get more people crowded about the card-table shrine than usual, will have no coherent response to the question, "what can I do?" What onlookers will be asked to do is to give money and time to get others to give money and time to get still others to give money and time ... all to adulate LaRouche and to keep his Leonore rolling in cash.
As to LaRouche being "right", once again it's the truism that even a stopped clock tells the correct time twice a day. And with LaRouche shuffling off this mortal coil in soiled linens, he now probably doesn't much care about the economic plight of people, if he ever did. Just get enough to keep the lights on - until they go out.

I want to be able to disagree with you. I really, really do. But, I downloaded an "Emergency Meeting with the Lym" off the LaRouchePAc site and listened to it (the link was on LaRouchePac, but it pointed to: http://wlym.com/mp3/20080917-lyn-lym-interview.mp3 ), and, while Lyn did briefly mention the breakdown crisis and a Four Powers Agreement to reverse it, the majority of his talk was about how the LYM have to give up their one day a week for private reading and study in favor of "Group Study", because "all learning is social" and individual study is a form of "masturbation".
Now, just before I left (in 1997 ) they had started pushing group readings of LaRouche's writings in the Chicago local. I fought against them. Partly because the people who were pushing them and leading them were the ones most loyal to Steve Douglas, and, at the time, I thought he was the new Ken Dalto (from things I've seen on the Intenet since, I guess Helga thought the same thing, for awhile), and partly because I thought that such a practice went totally against what Lyn taught about Creativity and the Filioque (sp?). I thought that by opposing this kind of atrocity I was standing up for LaRouche and his ideas against provocatuers and infiltrators. Now, for the first time, I hear Lyn defending such practices in his own words. Number 1, this is totally disgusting, and number 2. I can't believe they actually posted it on the Internet. It definately does seem as if they are more interested right now in gaining total psychological control over their current membership than they are in winning the masses over to supporting their program. This is most unfortunate, because, there are actually very many positive things in their program.
Two closing points:
One:
If all true learning is social, and studying great ideas alone in your spare time is "Masturbation", then, from reading Lyn's first autobiography, "The Power of Reason", I would have to conclude that LaRouche is the greatest Whack-Off Artist in the history of human civilization. But, of course, that conclusion comes from reading the book myself. If I had participated in a "Group Study" of the great work I am sure I would have come to a far different conclusion.

and Two:
If reading and studying in private equals masturbation, then, would it not follow that reading and studying in a group equals an orgy. Or, more accurately, having had the misfortune of participating in a few of these things the last time they were tried, wouldn't they be the equivilant of a Gang Rape?

The link to the audio I am referring to was oringinally posted on the LaRouchePac site but I can no longer find it there. It does still seem to be at:
http://wlym.com/mp3/20080917-lyn-lym-interview.mp3 .

09-18-2008, 08:27 PM

borisbad

Quote:
Originally Posted by poe
I want to be able to disagree with you. I really, really do. But, I downloaded an "Emergency Meeting with the Lym" off the LaRouchePAc site and listened to it (the link was on LaRouchePac, but it pointed to: http://wlym.com/mp3/20080917-lyn-lym-interview.mp3 ), and, while Lyn did briefly mention the breakdown crisis and a Four Powers Agreement to reverse it, the majority of his talk was about how the LYM have to give up their one day a week for private reading and study in favor of "Group Study", because "all learning is social" and individual study is a form of "masturbation".
Now, just before I left (in 1997 ) they had started pushing group readings of LaRouche's writings in the Chicago local. I fought against them. Partly because the people who were pushing them and leading them were the ones most loyal to Steve Douglas, and, at the time, I thought he was the new Ken Dalto (from things I've seen on the Intenet since, I guess Helga thought the same thing, for awhile), and partly because I thought that such a practice went totally against what Lyn taught about Creativity and the Filioque (sp?). I thought that by opposing this kind of atrocity I was standing up for LaRouche and his ideas against provocatuers and infiltrators. Now, for the first time, I hear Lyn defending such practices in his own words. Number 1, this is totally disgusting, and number 2. I can't believe they actually posted it on the Internet. It definately does seem as if they are more interested right now in gaining total psychological control over their current membership than they are in winning the masses over to supporting their program. This is most unfortunate, because, there are actually very many positive things in their program.
Two closing points:
One:
If all true learning is social, and studying great ideas alone in your spare time is "Masturbation", then, from reading Lyn's first autobiography, "The Power of Reason", I would have to conclude that LaRouche is the greatest Whack-Off Artist in the history of human civilization. But, of course, that conclusion comes from reading the book myself. If I had participated in a "Group Study" of the great work I am sure I would have come to a far different conclusion.

and Two:
If reading and studying in private equals masturbation, then, would it not follow that reading and studying in a group equals an orgy. Or, more accurately, having had the misfortune of participating in a few of these things the last time they were tried, wouldn't they be the equivilant of a Gang Rape?

The link to the audio I am referring to was oringinally posted on the LaRouchePac site but I can no longer find it there. It does still seem to be at:
http://wlym.com/mp3/20080917-lyn-lym-interview.mp3 .

I think Poe makes several valid observations, and I certainly endorse his reassessment of his previous post regarding Lyn's prognostication capabilities. One point that's often been made is that if LaRouche really believed his own views he could be able to 1) provide sound investment advice, i.e. now's the time to invest in strategic and other metals like gold and get out of stocks especially in the financial markets; 2) provide real concrete steps to overhaul a financial sysetm that's on the brink. It's been previously mentioned that his much vaunted New Bretton Woods was based upon people who are despised in the LaRouche hagiography like J. M. Keynes. The IMF itself was an outgrowth of the original Bretton Woods, etc.
Whether the financial mess implodes or not has little to do with LaRouche's predictions and if it is ever resolved it will have nothing to do with his so-called solutions. For instance, Michael Bloomberg, another hated figure of LaRouche, has proposed that the US begin massive investments in rebuilding our infrastructure, a very common-sense opinion. The fact that LaRouche has proposed great projects doesn't mean that he is a genius to recognize any American can recognize, the failing state of our infrastructure investment in roads, bridges, etc.

09-18-2008, 09:29 PM

poe

Quote:
Originally Posted by borisbad
I think Poe makes several valid observations, and I certainly endorse his reassessment of his previous post regarding Lyn's prognostication capabilities. One point that's often been made is that if LaRouche really believed his own views he could be able to 1) provide sound investment advice, i.e. now's the time to invest in strategic and other metals like gold and get out of stocks especially in the financial markets; 2) provide real concrete steps to overhaul a financial sysetm that's on the brink. It's been previously mentioned that his much vaunted New Bretton Woods was based upon people who are despised in the LaRouche hagiography like J. M. Keynes. The IMF itself was an outgrowth of the original Bretton Woods, etc.
Whether the financial mess implodes or not has little to do with LaRouche's predictions and if it is ever resolved it will have nothing to do with his so-called solutions. For instance, Michael Bloomberg, another hated figure of LaRouche, has proposed that the US begin massive investments in rebuilding our infrastructure, a very common-sense opinion. The fact that LaRouche has proposed great projects doesn't mean that he is a genius to recognize any American can recognize, the failing state of our infrastructure investment in roads, bridges, etc.


It's not exactly a reassessment. I stand by both posts. I agree with LaRouche that this is a systemic breakdown crisis, not just another typical classical capitalist boom and bust cycle. But I strongly disagree with his attack on a private intellectual life and his attempt to prevent the LYM from having one.

09-18-2008, 11:25 PM

candor

Group Study

Of course the main tactic behind the idea of "group study" is to leave as little opportunity as possible for the voice of conscience to be heard. This new policy must be a concession to LaRouche's Maoist buddies.
Of course, after his teen years, Gauss was exclusively a solitary learner. So was Beethoven. And on and on throughout the pantheon. Check out Anthony Storr's Solitude: A Return to Self. LaRouche probably feels like a group learner, what with all the chatter in his head.
I like shadok's observation as to the fundamental reason why it is easier to forecast the bad rather than the good: entropy.

09-19-2008, 12:06 AM

poe

Quote:
Originally Posted by candor
Of course the main tactic behind the idea of "group study" is to leave as little opportunity as possible for the voice of conscience to be heard. This new policy must be a concession to LaRouche's Maoist buddies.
Of course, after his teen years, Gauss was exclusively a solitary learner. So was Beethoven. And on and on throughout the pantheon. Check out Anthony Storr's Solitude: A Return to Self. LaRouche probably feels like a group learner, what with all the chatter in his head.
I like shadok's observation as to the fundamental reason why it is easier to forecast the bad rather than the good: entropy.


Again, I think that LaRouche is right about entropy and what he calls ( or used to call) negentropy (negative entropy ) as they apply to economics. Entropy sets in when you stay stuck at the same level of technology. The way you beat entropy is by transforming your economy from one level of technology to a higher one, i.e. Steam to Gasoline, Gasoline to Fission, Fission to Fusion, and so on. Since we have been stuck for decades in a Petroleum based world economy, you are right that it is easy to make predictions based on entropy. But LaRouche is right to point out that it doesn't have to be that way. We do need to make the jump to a higher level of technology or the crisis will get worse.
But, of course, holding Maoist self-criticism "Group Learning" sessions is not the way to win the people over to this program.

09-19-2008, 01:42 AM

poe

Sponsored by the Drug Lobby

On a completely unrelated topic, I was listening the other day to a podcast of the August 30th edition of Webster Tarpley's program on the GCN Network, and one of the commercials during the show was for HempUSA.Org .

09-19-2008, 03:15 AM

eaglebeak

Reaction (In)Formation

I couldn't help laughing when I noticed that the hyperactive youth over at the LYM Basement reacted so promptly to my remarks about the weirdness of the LPAC home page. A few days ago I had commented on the bowtie-wearing, skewed-eyeglass-sporting photo of Lyn from the late '70s or thereabouts on "The Lost Chance of 1989." http://www.larouchepac.com/
In particular, I commented on Lyn's hair (all over the place above his balding pate) and the appearance in the background of the man who was once his "Security" chieftain, puffing on a pipe.
Imagine my surprise when someone pointed out to me that in reaction to my critique, some LYMer webmeisters had removed the top of Lyn's head in that photo++can't tell if he looks better or worse++and had fuzzed out the image of BK in the background, just like the old "Stalin school of falsification."
Honestly, these people have way too much time on their hands.
And yet++how is that possible? I mean, this is THEIR time! Lyn alone has forecast the blah blah of the blah blah.... Why aren't they out on every street corner, "organizing"?
I figure they have enough kids to fiddle with the website home page, but not enough to fill even one average-size street corner.
That, my friends, is irony. Lyn's big moment (again++remember what he was like in 1987? Or 1971?), and no one to trumpet it.
All dressed up and no place to go.
What infernal bad luck++to be the Zeitgeist, and no one even notices.
Around Town
In the most elastic sense of the word ("town")++My sources tell me that Harley Schlanger was the guy on the scene at Denver, at the Democratic Convention. For those unfamiliar with Harley, he is best identified as the Texas/California NC, the inventor of the LYM (and that's where his clout comes from, such as it is), and the point-of-contact for the redoutable Classical actor (you have to spell Classical with a capital "c") Robert Beltran.
So that was it. No youth, no choristers, no band, no earth-shattering intervention++just poor old Harley out in Denver, by himself. "Reporting."

09-19-2008, 02:08 PM

xlcr4life

Quote:
Originally Posted by eaglebeak
+.....So that was it. No youth, no choristers, no band, no earth-shattering intervention++just poor old Harley out in Denver, by himself. "Reporting."

There are several theories about this in circulation in LaroucheTown.
Scared LYM and LYMettes refusing to get into LaroucheMobiles after being told to "just make the gas money on the way up there, a nuclear war is breaking out and the Kinko's bill is due".
Bruce Director giving a class on conquering the laws of gravity for the Denver Squad to cheer them up for the trip. The team later found that a LaroucheMobile with a leaky transmission could not conquer the laws of gravity trying to climb the Rocky Mountains.
When told about the Denver squad being stopped by the Rocky Mountains. Lyn muttered "Rocky? So David and Nelson are back trying to stop my latest creations?. Damn them! Jeff, tell Nancy to get out a million run leafletts, the Rockefellers are back in town".
A car load of LYM and Lymettes went AWOL for a few days. It seems that someone brought along a 1974 Campaigner by Lyn where the beans were spilled about a massive slave labor shale oil gassification complex was being built by the Rockefellers. The LYM and LYMettes , after weeks of no stipends figured that a slave labor job in Colorado beats a card table shrine in LA. At last reports, a 1987 Buick LaroucheMobile was roaming the open range of Colorado looking for the plant to apply for slave labor jobs and health insurance.
Debbie Freeman told Lyn to not send any LYM or LYMettes, just Harley because "James Carville and Hillary want your directives to be adopted and kept low key to shock Obama when he does not get the nomination. If Obama hears the choir, he will know that "the jig is up"."

In other funny Larouche moment. I really think that as Lyn deteriorates, the last of the deadenders has him talking to himself with a few LYM and LYMettes in the room to give the impression that Lyn is not all gone. Consider this wording of Lyn found in my inbox.
LPACTV: Lyndon LaRouche Holds Emergency Conference with LaRouche ...
By LaRouche PAC info@larouchepac.com
Stay tuned. Video will be available soon.
xlcr4life@hotmail.com
Latest from LaRouchePAC - http://

09-20-2008, 05:42 AM

eaglebeak

A Herr Cut

I just spent a few minutes looking through the "organizing material" on the LPAC website.
First point: There's hardly any.
Second point: The graphics are really dumb.
Third point: The "articles" (those not written by Lyn himself) are written by LYMers and LYMettes++what do you all do in Boomer Editorial these days? I guess you still supply the ancient photos (Hitler and Schacht, on and on), but what else do you do?
Striking above all is what an unbelievably bad eye, what grotesque judgment, the LYMies have, or "LYM Editorial," as Lyn likes to call it.
Check out Exhibit A. (Be patient while it loads.)
http://www.larouchepac.com/files/pdfs/080804_oneyearlater-front.pdf
How about that the picture of Lyn, folks?! The guy looks like a derelict.
You kids may not remember Lyn's claiming at the NBC trial not to know who paid for his haircuts, but the oldsters will++it was sort of a byword for years in the org.
Nowadays it's obvious that no one's paying for them. I guess the income has sunk so low the Old Boy can't even get coiffed.
But honestly, when it comes to putting this as your cover picture++Hasn't anyone ever heard of PhotoShop?

09-20-2008, 05:47 AM

eaglebeak

And Another Thing...

While I'm at it, I call your attention to a truly remarkable piece of prescient forecasting on Lyn's part, a heuristic pedagogical crucial experiment of unparallaled perspicacity (emphasis mine):
As of Saturday, June 7th, it is now official; there are now
only two major-party candidates. Or, perhaps not.
The two current Presidential pre-candidates are Senators
John McCain, a Republican, and Barack Obama, a Democrat.
Both candidates have shown the temperament of a hand grenade
with a loose pin. With McCain, the problem is well
known; with Obama, the problem of a flakey temperament
is no longer hidden. It is doubtful that either will actually be
nominated. Some people in the back room of politics have
a different idea, people operating from behind the scenes at
a very high level in the circles of world power. McCain and
Obama are political chess-pieces on the board; the fellows
in the back room are chess players who know how a pawn
becomes a queen.
Now, as we speak, the hands of the players are already
moving.
In that case, it is probable, as of now, that the game will be
rigged to hand the election to a Republican candidate who
will probably be selected to replace Senator John McCain.
The Democratic candidate who will be selected to replace
the soon-to-be discredited Obama, will probably be destined
in advance to lose. In that situation, it is not the candidate
who will determine the outcome of the election, or the
program of the next President, it will be the chess-players,
whose policies will not be chosen by either candidate.
I mean, who wouldn't follow a mind like that to the ends of the Earth?

09-20-2008, 06:17 AM

candor

Observations

The old boy looks pleasantly surpised to have made it through one year later.
(2) Hmm. Could Lyn have desired to be the pawn that were promoted [note: the LaRouchian subjunctive] to be a Queen?

09-20-2008, 06:14 PM

localgreek

conference for young Jeremiah

Thanks Doran for posting the information about the conference in Germany. This is a very important event. I couldn't find it posted, however, on laroucheplanet.
I can see that the folks around the event are organized, however, I do hope that they prepare press kits and submit these to the media. I hope they follow up with phone calls to the media, otherise journalists may not come out. I hope they have lots of advertising about the event. I hope that US media comes too. I also hope that a video is made of the event and that at least the transcript of the proceedings is posted on laroucheplanet.
It is expensive to go to Germany these days; it would be great if Molly Kronberg could go and be on the platform with the other folks.
Any more information about this event would be very greatly appreciated.
As always, thank you Eaglebeak for the interesting items, particularly the Windy Hill dialogues. These provide many insights into the psychological dynamics between the parties. It's also rather painful to read that intelligent people find themselves in these sycophantic places. I do not know if you scan or type, but I would be interested in the political comments too. All these internal documents are worth putting on the web.
Thanks to all for all the other interesting posts. As for predictions, I am afraid, that I do not place any value whatsoever on what LL says. He has been predicting doom every single day. There are big shifts going on the world. The US will come up with something. This I believe.

09-20-2008, 07:54 PM

boomersage

Limited resources
LaRouche had a choice between coiffing and quaffing, he made his choice.

09-20-2008, 10:36 PM

howie

Looking at the cover, my first question is "One Year after WHAT?" One of numerous web-casts? Why not "Two Years Later", if that is the case (Note that that is the demarcer referenced here: http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle20806.htm )?
On Tuesday, October 30th, 2007, with an outbreak of "revenire" in mind, and mulling the economic picture, I started a post on my blog with:
<i>The problem with having this sort of P-list blog and having it parked on a cult with a long track-record of exploiting any economic insecurity within the nation, is that that tempers my expression of fairly dire economic troubles. That we are not swerving toward economic Apocalypse does not mean a few Shoes are about to drop which the body politic is going to have to rumble through. </i>
I intended to refer to it, looking into my clouded and imprecise crystal ball, if a Larouche followerer came over on a week like this one. And I do believe there was more than one poster here who agreed that a looming financial crisis was hanging over us. It is the ebb of a rather corruption-filled cycle which ends with socialized losses. Thinking about Larouche, the "stopped clock right twice a day" rule, with regards to "Economic Forecasting", works (Entropy ++ "Things Fall Apart"; and if you surf through the worst case scenarios for the economy, you will be right eventually, and beyond which you can amp up for the bust part of the natural and predictable boom and bust cycles for even minor items ++ ie: The dotcom boom.) Notable here is that I can point to references (of a sort of "human interest" or "local color" variety) of Larouchies on Wall Street in October 1987 pounding their chest that "He was RIGHT" in mainstream newspapers. I am hard-pressed to find this right now. This is similar to being able to point to blog posts at the Democratic Convention in 2004 referencing Larouchies, but not in 2008 ++ their presence fades.
His Political Predictions ("Forecasts"?) are completely Bonkers, and the stopped clock analogy is discarded because they never make any sense on the face of them. I always had to puzzle over the Michael Bloomberg canard.
Is Larouche still clinging to the Clintons? The Cryonicist Larouchie (Icy LCer) is raving about the Clintons coming in to save the Banks:
http://futurenautaugust08.blogspot.com/
<i>Watch Hillary and Bill push the FDR option to save the dollar by NOT bailing out the hedge funds and derivatives++ which are falsley being labelled as simply investment banks++ this is going to be significant whether you think so or not.</i>
Also, it appears Larouche has come out for McCain. http://www.larouchepac.com/news/2008/09/19/mccain-wi-something-interesting-going.html

09-20-2008, 10:57 PM

howie

Which, come to think of it, would mean that once again, Larouche is allied with Lady Rothschild. Strange days are upon us, indeed.

09-20-2008, 11:08 PM

borisbad

My gawd, I thought the foto of Lyn on their own website must have been a joke. Eaglebeak isn't kidding, it's like someone's worst enemy taking the most unflattering photo they could find to poke fun at. If anyone remembers the character played by Julian Beck in Poltergeist 2, that's what I thought I was looking at.

09-21-2008, 03:40 AM

eaglebeak

Remember All Those Leaflets? Well, Forget 'Em

As promised, continuing the Windy Hill Dialogue of the Aug. 3 briefing—just to give a full flavor of the quality of Lyn's creative
(fer)mentation. (Not sure if he still uses that expression. He may have transcended it. Snicker.).
LYN… But when you use that, the audio/visual in that way, and when you have a sense of tempo: 'Cause tempo is crucial. … 'Cause everything lies in discontinuity. Irony lies in discontinuity….
So therefore, our development of the medium in this way, which is now experimental [horsefeathers] people are discovering how to do it, by doing it [anyone remember when Lyn used to inveigh against "learning by doing"?] ….
And that's how you do it. You get the idea, try to expand it. You think you want to get it done immediately. But then you start thinking about. "No! This is not quite right. This is not quite right. The timing is wrong. Too much on this. Too much on that. Not enough—we're not getting the idea across. Tempo of ideas." And we can do that. And that's what we have to get out. And the Boomers didn't understand that. [Of course they didn't. They didn't understand anything.] If they can get a leaflet out, that's big. A leaflet doesn't work, unless you've got some of this stuff to go with it.[emphasis added]
You can not convey ideas effectively by leaflet. Not creatively. You have to have an emotional experience, involving the adoption of an idea. [There goes the quaint old concept of reading.] Therefore, you have to have a setting, a crafted setting, which creates the emotional tension. You have to have a sense of conflict, a sense of change: This is wrong! I've gotta change this. How do I change this? This is not conveying what I want to say. How do I get it across? BOOM! And you get a sense of how to do it….
Natalie L [I omit her last name in case in later years she wants to deny any connection]: Lyn, did we not start with the audio/visual media earlier, just because we didn't have the capability? Or, was there some other opposition?
LYN: Because people were sluggish. The Boomer problem. That you say, "Oh, yes, you say this. Oh, we'll get around to it." Just—whwww! That's why you moved out here, so you could get little (sic) distance from the Boomers. If you get too close to Boomers, they'll say. "Yes, that's fine. Stop that. Now, we gotta do this right now, c'mon!'' "Oh, that's fine, yes. We'll give a lecture on that tomorrow." [laughter] BARRRHGHGHGHG! [I am not making this up.]
I mean, how people who are not cows, can produce bull**** in such quantities, is amazing!
Rick [that would be Rick Magraw, "Security Head"] doesn't laugh; he gets angry about it. [Rick gets angry about everything.] He thinks it (sic) another cow that doesn't run—or is about to break down!
…Ah, fun. So that's the nature of my life. And yours. [laughs] But I manage to stay reasonably happy, despite all these tribulations. [You can tell by the way he rants.]
Comments:
Two things of note: Lyn's disowning of the concept of the mass leaflet—wish he'd told us that before—and his slight confusion (30 years) over when we started audiovisual work.
1. Leaflets: Anyone who was in the LaRouche org for two minutes knew that mass leaflets were the biggest deal there was. How many million-run leaflets did we print? How many hundreds of thousands of leaflets did field organizers dump in laundromats?
How many endless manhours did "Operations" spend recording phony figures about where the "network" "got out" the leaflets?
How emotionally invested was Will Wertz in getting out more leaflets than Patton?
How many tens of thousands of dollars did Ken Kronberg throw away printing the million-run leaflets Lyn and Nancy demanded?
It's a damn shame Lyn never told Ken printing didn't do it. Too bad Lyn kept demanding all that useless printing, till Ken was crushed to death under the weight of it.
Well, it all stands to reason. No New Federalist, no Fidelio, no 21st Century, no real EIR—and now no leaflets (or pamphlets to speak of). Pretty soon—no organization.
2. Audiovisual: Lyn is simply lying when he says that the audiovisual work didn't get done till recently because of "Boomers." Wouldn't Ken M and Dan P, winners of a number of Emmys as producers of various films, be surprised to hear that? (If I mentioned their full names, LYMers and LYMettes, you could Google them and see who used to do Lyn's audiovisual before you guys came along—but I don't really think Ken and Dan would appreciate it. Maybe a Boomer will tell you.)
Wouldn't Allen Salisbury be surprised to hear that the Boomers didn't do A/V stuff for Lyn? Don't know who Allen was? Ask his widow, Pat, about Allen and the A/V work he did for Lyn, decades ago.
Not to mention Mike M, and all he did to try to make Lyn camera-worthy.
Good heavens, Lyn started insisting on things like nationwide Election Night TV half-hour broadcasts in 1976—that's right, kiddiewinks, 32 years ago.
Now, when he tells you the A/V work just started yesterday, you know that the old buzzard is lying in his beak.

09-21-2008, 04:50 AM

eaglebeak

But Wait! There's More!

There's the Aug. 11 briefing installment of the "Windy Hill Dialogues." (I would suspect Lyn of wanting to sound like a Noble Roman, a Classical figure, à la Cicero's Tusculan Disputations—except I'm pretty sure he never heard of them.)
This starts with some aimless meanderings and interchanges between Lyn and John Hoefle (the guy who now appears prominently with Jeff on the renamed LaRouche Weekly Whatsit onhttp://www.larouchepac.com/news/2008...ly-update.html).
LYN: [after long silence, chuckles] Wonder what's passing through John's mind. He knows what's passing through his mind. [More than I can say for some…]
JOHN: Well, the first thing, is how do you say anything, which follows that up? [laughter]
LYN: Well, that's what we're doing! That (sic) what this whole thing is, that's why this whole youth organization is that! Is to get a new generation started to ensure the future of mankind, and in the meantime to (sic) the things that are necessary to make that possible. What else is there?
I mean, we all die, don't we?
JOHN: Yes. [Oh, well played!]
LYN: So, what do you do with your life, while you have it? You do something for the future generations, or else. Huh? And you go find that future generation, and you make sure it develops. And understand the past. That's what this association really was dedicated to, from the inception, That's how it was created. I saw Hell coming and I had to do something about it. [He sees Hell coming every night.] And we had no clear vision of what to do, except I knew which direction to go in, so we just kept going.
We had a lot of fun along the way. Some of you guys don't realize how much fun we had at various times! [laughter] We really did, we really had fun. Then we got crushed, because we're having fun. [Makes sense.] "They're having fun. Crush them!" [laughter] [Actually, it was more like, "They're defrauding elderly people of millions. Arrest them!" Whatever.] I believe people should have fun, even when they're being tortured, laughing at the enemy. "Ha-ha! You're going to torture me! Ha-ha, you know what's going to happen to you? Ha-haha" [laughter].[emphasis added]
JOHN: We can win, they can't.
LYN: That's right.
FEMALE: Prometheus—
LYN: That's right, exactly.
FEMALE: ++you know, assuaged himself by [crosstalk] also.
LYN: That's what the Prometheus story is. That's why people hated the idea of Prometheus, for that reason.
Anyway: So that's my story—for today. World War IV's begun. They skipped Three. [laughter]
JOHN: Inflation.
FEMALE: They're too ambitious.
TARRAJNA: Hey, Lyn, I have a question about ****.
LYN: You know some?
TARRAJNA: [tries to interject some discussion of Obama, etc.]
LYN: Well, we created that—in a sense, on his role. [??] Because they intended to throw him away earlier. [Well, at least I SAID they did.] And because of what we did, which kept Hillary in there as long as she was kept in there, and particularly in the last three months of the phase of her campaign, where our impact was significant in keeping her in there, they got stuck with her! [Got all that?] And then you get the dynamic of the institutions that had been mobilized against her, which were mobilized largely by Soros and other things, right? And this thing took on a life of its own. [Heaven knows what he's talking about. He sure doesn't.]
But my view is, they're still going to dump him. I see the signs of the readiness to dump him all over the world. And they get him in any way, they can assassinate him. I mean, a guy like this, with his—he comes in a sense, as long as he's around, they're stuck with him, but they don't want him. What do they do with him? They kill him. And they try to kill him with the kind of effect would (sic) be most useful for their purposes.
You know, one of Molly Kronberg's friends'll probably kill him or something like that—and put the blame on us! [laughs]
That makes sense. [Sure it does.] It's the way they do things.
There's more, but this is, as they say, more than enough.
Comments:
1. Note the rank obscenity of Lyn's giggling, chortling remarks about "all the fun we had." He's referring to things like Mop-Up (beating folks up); threatening his "enemies"—Kissinger, Jimmy Carter (at the time), and many more; issuing anti-Semitic tracts; vilifying all those who had ever worked with him and left; stealing money hand over fist; living high off the hog while his followers lived as paupers, with all the physiological effects that can have (see XLCR's previous posts on that topic); etc., etc. Oh, yes, we had fun—ask the suicides, like Steve Parsons and Mark Burdman and Ken Kronberg. At least in the case of Mark, Lyn didn't precipitate it directly.
In the case of Ken, however, it was otherwise.
Did Jeremiah Duggan have fun, LYMers and LYMettes? Better research that one.
And chuckling old Uncle Lyn interrupted his own fun to accuse Jeremiah's mother of driving Jerry to "suicide."
But Lyn sure had fun.
2. The part about torture: Lyn is an arrant physical coward, as has been remarked on previously on this board, so trust me, he's not laughing in the face of any torturers. He was always terrified that something might happen to him.
Nothing ever did happen to the well-guarded, well-fed, cosseted Lyn—but plenty happened to his followers.
Good heavens, "A Year Later,"—or rather, a year and a half later—since Ken Kronberg died, we've had John Grauerholz die, and Gary Genazzio and John Morris, and Jeanne B., and a number of other members and ex-members—relatively young, in their 50s—and the picture of Dorian Gray just keeps disintegrating out at Windy Hill.
Lyn is the torturer, not the tortured. And you bet he's laughing "ha-haha."
3. Then there's the peculiar remark about how "Molly Kronberg's friends" are going to assassinate Barack and blame it on Lyn….
I think Lyn's got his predicates in a twist. This is really about Molly Kronberg putting the blame on Lyn for Ken's death …. And try as Lyn may to tell everyone that Molly really "did it," and now to make this latest absurd claim, he can't get out from under Ken's death. It's a great dark shadow over "all the fun we had," it's never going to be dispelled, it's just going to keep getting darker.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++** ++++++++++++++**
Thanks, Earnest One, for your extensive postings on Winstar. I meant to thank you earlier, but got sidetracked. I appreciate them and find them very valuable.

09-21-2008, 06:14 AM

candor

Twisting in the Wind

"You know, one of Molly Kronberg's friends'll probably kill him or something like that—and put the blame on us!"
This is twisted from several angles:
(1) the Malcolm/MLK/RFK assassinations loom already over Obama;
(2) Molly Kronberg has been through enough at the hands of this malefactor that this coward should have the basic human decency to keep his yap shut;
(3) the presumption that because Lyn and Tony Papert are directly responsible for Ken Kronberg's death, Molly Kronberg now has "friends" who are dastards like they;
(4) the presumption that Lyn or his derelict followers are perceived by anyone in the real world to have the least potency to effect such a crime.
Any of you LYMers who reflect on the evil represented by that one statement - if you have any humanity left - should realize, despite your small experience of adulthood, who it is you are following and what it is you are participating in. Listen to your conscience. Ask Lyn to borrow his ear trumpet.

09-21-2008, 07:10 AM

scrimscraw

Chicken Little as Prophet

I was out of town and away from my computer for close to two weeks and have spent the time since catching up. I'm glad to see that the dialogue here has continued unabated in the meantime. BTW, I'm also one of the participants of this board who was never a LC member ++ just a long-time reader of the lit with a morbid fascination with what made Lyn and the org tick. I credit FACTnet with helping me understand much better the destructive cultish aspects of the LC.
Regarding the latest financial crisis, whether one views it as cyclical or terminal, I don't think that Lyn deserves much credit at all for having predicted a big collapse daily, weekly, and monthly for the last 40 some years. The Left, which LHL was an active participant in for decades, produced numerous Marxist analyses for most of the 20th century predicting the eminent collapse of Capitalism. Somehow it never got around to happening quite as predicted, but were this to be the BIG IMPLOSION this time, then all those Marxist "forecasters" deserve as much credit as Lyn.
As always, a big round of applause to Eaglebeak, Xlcer, Earnest One, and all the other regulars for stimulating postings and often hilarious dissections of the output (transcribed, written, video, or purely visual) of the LYM and LYMettes. Definitely "fun"!!

09-21-2008, 10:40 AM

‘‘larouchetruth'''

Lyn Was NOT "Right" in 1987, or 2007

Quote: ->Originally Posted by candor
As to LaRouche being "right", once again it's the truism that even a stopped clock tells the correct time twice a day .
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadok
I agree. Larouche has warned of the end of capitalism since his Marxist days and "forecasted" ritualistically a "depression worse than the 1930s" on a yearly basis for the last 40 years. So he was "right" in 1987 as he appears to be "right" in 2008... and like a stopped clock, he was wrong all the other years.
The sad thing is that the thrilled larouchies who have short memory (if any) will conclude larouche s being vindicated and they will probably waste an additional decade of their precious lives in this lunacy they wouldn't have were there no financial crash in 2008... Of course it could have been 2009 or 2033... The fact is that "forecasting" bad news is the safest bet. Anyone could "forecast" a new "Chernobyl", a plane crash or a "Global warming". Bad news have all a certain degree of probability. Entropy is everywhere.
But there is a fundamental difference between coincidence and reality. Indeed the stopped clock tells the "exact time" twice a day whereas a clock which delays never tells the time "exactly"...
Which clock would you prefer?

The analogy to the broken clock being right twice a day is remarkably apt, with a difference++the clock is far more "right" in those two seconds of each day, than LL was "right" in either 1987 or 2007. In 1987, Lyn picked up a forecast from a Financial Times (of London) financial journalist who made a prediction for a serious stock market decline in October of 1987, and LL merely copied it. No credit to him there. And it fell because the market was somewhat overinflated, and because no one had realized how programmed trading would backfire if a selloff got going a bit too fast. (The way it worked was that lots of people had automatic "sell" orders embedded automatically such that when the market experienced a larger than anticipated one-day decline at the beginning of the day, that decline suddenly triggered a huge further sell-off, which turned what might have been a several hundred point decline into a 1000 point decline. I don't know if the columnist (Anthony, I believe, unless that was his first name) had that explanation for his forecast, or what it was if not that, but the actual decline had nothing to do with anything except this technical glitch (subsequently corrected).
But for the Hube, this was Black Monday, the beginning of a 1929-style stock market decline. And the cream of the jest was his February, 1988 half-hour broadcast where he superimposed graphs of the 1929 initial sharp decline, followed by a six-month climb partially back up, before the resumption of a huge decline to a bottom in 1933, with the 1987 decline, followed by the climb partially back up as of the time of the broadcast. For LaRouche, the fact that the graphs tracked pretty closely the rate of decline AND recovery was PROOF that they would continue tracking, with his firm, absolute prediction that the stock market would resume its decline in a few months, just as the superimposed graph from early 1930 did in last spring, 1930. As if the 6-month temporary rebound of the stock market in 1929-30 was some necessary, unavoidable feature of the overall decline that lawfully had to also repeat in 1987-88. I think this is sort of a post hoc, ergo propter hoc type argument. Because 1987-88 was tracing the same path as 1929-1930 for the first 6 months, therefore it was because this path was a necessary part of a 1929-33 redux, which necessarily would then continue to track 1929-33 down to the basement.
Of course, the 1988 recovery just kept going, never went down again, soaring to over 11,000 by late 1999, more than 3.5 times higher than before the 1987 crash. Even more significant, the 33% decline in 1987 had absolutely no effect on the real economy that Lyn likes to talk so much about. No rise in unemployment, no drop in production. So, I don't see how Lyn gets any credit for this "forecast" whatsoever. He didn't predict a technically-driven plummetting followed by the most sustained rebound to a huge new high in stock market history, with no impact on the real economy. He forecast the beginning of a 1929-style crash and depression.
And, to cap it off, Lyn has frequently said in recent years that we HAVE been in a depression since 1987, that that DID initiate a depression.
2007 "Forecast"
Prima facie, Lyn's July, 2007 forecast of financial meltdown might appear more credible than his hollow 1987 claim. First of all, lots of markers were already in evidence that suggested a pretty serious crisis, even though, admittedly, many top experts didn't see anything like what has transpired. One could argue that the deepening crisis just this past week is confirmation that Lyn was pretty alone in his July 2007 forecast.
The broken clock argument applies here, as what the Hube said then was no different from what he has been saying like clockwork once or twice a year for the past 20 years.
But was he even, finally right at all? Well, very superficially, one could say, yes, so far, but only if the decline continues. Remember, his forecast was not for a huge blowback from the subprime crisis that would force a huge public Treasury bailout, but for a financial implosion destroying tens of trillions in financial values and plunging us into a New Dark Age. That was his 2007 forecast, and it hasn't come true. Could it? In principle, yes. The willingness of the Bush Administration to junk everything they might have been expected not to do, and act like FDR in April 1933, doing whatever the Government could do, legal or not, to stem a crisis, could not have been assumed, but now that it's happening, it's anyone's guess whether this is enough to stabilize markets and foreclosures and begin the process of recuperating our banking sector and our housing sector.
But was he "right?" "Right" about what? Hube has repeated many times starting last summer and fall that this was NOT a sub-prime housing crisis, but a systemic crisis. Well, excuse me, but it IS a sub-prime mortgage crisis, compounded by a raft of new-fangled derivatives that almost nobody understood and that absolutely nobody understood how to calculate the risks of owning. Granted, LL also pinpointed that it was the derivates market that was the main thing that was going to bring down the system. But has LL or anyone, Hoeffle or anyone else, ever actually discussed how derivates work, which ones were more dangerous than others (there are a lot of different types of derivates and they are far from all alike++some are quite stabilizing, others totally speculative++did the LaRouche camp EVER explain how this was playing out?); did they mention credit default swaps, collateralized mortgage instruments, etc., before they were talked about in the media? No, because LL doesn't understand how they work, and has requested no research to actually UNDERSTAND anything.
LL remains committed, as he must or lose his only claim to fame among his followers, to the proposition that the collapse is terminal, and no solution short of his his own (bankrupting the FED and wiping outs many trillions in derivatives and other debt instruments) can possibly stem the crisis. But he has no basis for knowing that nothing will work. And nothing he writes is even designed to show why anyone should believe this. He actually presents it as so self-evident that anyone disagreeing must be an idiot.
So, LL was wrong about what was behind the accelerating financial crisis, gave no hint of why he thought it was going to go in late July, and will almost surely be proved wrong that it cannot be fixed short of bankrupting trillions of public and private debt. And he's been wrong ever since last July in predicting that things couldn't hold together for more than the next few weeks. And, so far, the real economy has hardly suffered at all from the financial crisis so far, with GNP still growing and unemployment up, but not that high by historical standards.
So, I guess I take issue with Poe's agreement with LL that this is a systemic crisis. It is a crisis that shows up what was shown in 1929-1933, financial markets and banks need government regulations to keep the system going. One of the bills passed in 1999 specifically exempted derivatives from any form of regulation. Well, we see how well that turned out. And the Bush Administration gutted the budgets of the SEC and other regulatory and oversight bodies, and generally tried not to enforce existing regulations whenever they could. Bingo!! The only "systemic" change will be a pendulum swing back toward lots more regulation, and vast reduction in the footprint of investment banking. A big change, to be sure, but not a systemic crisis, whatever that is.
And by the same token, this is no typical boom-bust cycle. It was driven, like the S&L crisis, by specific misdeeds by major corporations, banks and financial funds and was totally avoidable had mortgage lending not been fraudulent and had derivatives been regulated as they should have been.
Finally, yes, it is truly stunning that with "their moment" putatively having arrived, they are so passive, almost supine, doing, and even saying, relatively little about how "right" LL was. "The Silence of the Lames." (politically lame, intellectually lame). May the ICLC rest in peace.

09-21-2008, 02:50 PM

shadok

1 Attachment(s)

Quote:
Originally Posted by larouchetruth
Quote: ->Originally Posted by candor
As to LaRouche being "right", once again it's the truism that even a stopped clock tells the correct time twice a day .

I agree. this is why I put "right" into brackets... He indeed didn't forecast the Oct. 1987 crash as it is well documented on laroucheplanet and as for this one he didnt give a date but warned about it for years. In fact, acc to lhl the crash had already occurred years ago!! (same for ww3 as eaglebeak informed us- it seems ww4 is looming at the horizon)
What I find hilarious now is the fact "Synarchist" Rohatyn had called 7 months ago for a Roosevelt's New Deal, as the Keynesian he claims to be. This was published on lhttp://www.i-mockery.com/halloween/greatest/pics/poltergeist2b.gif but the LYM called this proposal "fascist-style"!
All the confusion comes from the fact Schacht's program to rebuild (Nazi) Germany was based on Keynesian principles too: e.g. building roads like... today's Maglevs? Schacht himself, when tried at Nuremberg, noted that his economic plan was similar to Roosevelt's.... To say that Schacht's economic policy was typically fascist is the same as saying the V2 bombs were typically fascist... There is a fundamental difference between the means and the ends. Economy deals with the means, politics with the ends. So, to call "Schachtian economics" as typically fascist is ludicrous. Slave-labor wasn't key in the early 30s Germany. It became an official polciy under Goering after 1937-38 (ironically when Schacht was out).
Pic attached is Schacht (left next to Roosevelt) in 1936, admirer of FDR's New Deal which inspired similar public spending strategy in Germany.

09-21-2008, 03:38 PM

borisbad

Interesting interview with Rohatyn. It seems interesting that LaRouchepub.com reproduced this interview since the only "nazi" characteristic observed was in the headline telling us it was "Nazi-like version" of New Deal. The editors or whomever couldn't even add any commentary as to what made these views of Rohatyn Nazi-like or disprove anything he said. The remarks seem similar to what Mayor Bloomberg touted publicly about a month ago. Anyone reading this interview (I wonder if they obtained the author's permission) would simply say that Rohatyn is discussing a reasonable proposal to get America's infrastructure back in shape. He even condemns such deregulatory measures as the weakening of Glass-Steagal. It really shows how intellectually bankrupt the writers, or should I say cut and pasters of Larouchepub. are since anyone reading the interview would have no idea as to what the headline was referring to. In fact, they could have just as easily written that Rohatyn confirms that there is an international monetary and financial crisis and suggests FDR type solution had they so chosen.

09-21-2008, 04:26 PM

shadok

Borisbad:
I think the editors called this Rohatyn plan "fascist" for internal consumption only. The LYM's zombies won't go past the title and won't be puzzled by the apparent contradictions. In other words: don't you worry; Rohatyn is a fascist!
It reminds me of an intellectual contorsion from Muriel Mirak in an old Campaigner dedicated to Dante. She portrayed him as a Platonist despite the numerous quotes from Dante in favor of Aristotle. Of course, it is a fact Dante was an Aristotelian. Her sophist argument ran like: when Dante praised Aristotle, this was "irony" Since "irony" was the mark for being a Platonist/humanist, therefore Dante was a Platonist (and if you have doubts about it, that meant you were not a Platonist, only Platonists "knew" Dante was "ironical" etc) !
Now, the LYMs are far less sophisticated than we were and a simple title reassuring Rohatyn IS a fascist even if doesnt sound like one, would be enough.
But don't misunderstand me: It was right for Schacht to be tried at Nuremberg as he gave Hitler the economic means to wage his world war ... and contrary to larouche's revision of History when he tries to blame Hitler's war on Schacht's economic policy and Schacht's secret Synarchist backers (his argument runs like: the German economy was in such a state after Schacht's austerity that Hitler had no other choice but invade and loot its neighbors!)
But it would also been fair to send scientists like Von Braun to Nuremberg who, after all, gave Hitler the means for his war (eg the V1s and V2s) or any other German scientists who were saved thanks to operation Paperclip. That's the dark side of US politics which larouche tried to dig into.
The figure of Schacht is of course key in larouiche's ideology; to "demontrate" that capitalism=fascism, and vice versa

09-21-2008, 07:13 PM

xlcr4life

Helga as QueenlaQueefa

Quote:
Originally Posted by ’‘‘boomersage'''
LaRouche had a choice between coiffing and quaffing, he made his choice.

Lyn may quaff, but do not leave Helga out as she is famous for her Legendary Beer Queefs. Just ask Zeke why the trade in value of the Pontiacs was so low.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=beer queef
Howie Here is how you can look at what Lyn wrote about McCain. Lyn is a Hedge Cult operator and such will always have first a definative opus to set the sails for the cult and then add variatations to cover the bets. The members will ignore the obvious chicanery and AFTER something happens which may appear to bolster Lyn, they will get ramrodded with it.
This is nothing but another cheap parlor trick of Lyn for the LYM and LYMettes to make money and man card table shrines no matter what happens. To figure this out you have to take the WABAC machine to the 1976 election and how we managed to be both Dems and Republicans and call every phone list with a new "hat".
What Lyn can do is really easy. If Obama wins , he has the built in enemies of Obama and Al Gore and can claim to be friends with Hillary. What he needs is a fired up boiler room to call Hillary voting lists.
What Lyn can do if the race is very close is the revisit the 1976 election between Ford and Carter and claim that Obama won with vote fraud and screwed McCain. Jeff and Tony C then issue "EIR Special Reports" on how "ACORN", which works with Obama, padded voter rolls and gave Obama enough voted to steal the election. Since Acorn has a history of voter registration problems, this will be very plausible for the cult's phone calls.
The LYM and LYMettes were not born during this era and to them, it will be a new chapter to raise more money to overturn the election or then shift mentally in the boiler rooms.
If McCain wins, Helga hypes up the Club of Life while you then call up people to support Nuclear Power and McCain by giving money to the cult to stop Gore and the environmentalists. Old EIRs are dusted off and some new flow charts are made by Tony Chaitkin to show how every environmentalist supporter of Obama is part of the New Dark Ages.
As someone here posted a few days ago, when you ask a LYM or LYMettes what to do in a crisis, the answer is always to give money. If you need a front group, then you figure out if you have some "free energy" among the remaining crew to start one up. I found years ago a 50K contribution to an anti Bush PAC which had as its chief officer a long time security member. The "Mark" (Carny of victim) gives money earmarked for one thing to a cult member who can then divert that money to something else. This is a more clever way of doing things then in the FEF days when we asked for money to buy TV time to promote nuclear power or to send Fusion magazines to libraries. In the end, th eonly TV time was Lyn and we hardly sent out any Fusion magazines.
EagleBeak What you posted about Lyn mentioning Molly Kronberg and the assasination of Obama, coupled with his glee over "the fun" he and the cult have had reminds me of Charles Manson and his "family". The sign of a deeply derenged cult and their leader is very evident in how there is not a tear shed over the numerous hardships which were imposed on the supporters and members in our grand theft. Elderly supporters were reduced to poverty, members were sent to prison, vendors lost millions on owed monies for thier business and employees while Lyn lifted his bottle of Rhinegau higher and higher. Lyn with Nancy Spannaus and Babs together sure makes a great Larouche Family.
LTruth Great explanation and on par with what I plan to post to Poe next week. Lyn does not have to know anything except just a bit more than a member who is encased in the Bizarro World. Since by nature and design, a member is kept in the dark and in the cave so to speak, there is no real world reference to actual commentary, debate or events. What I found with my Leesburg Real Estate guide was just how no LYM or LYMette had any idea of what we actually owned in real estate in Leesburg. Not that many LCers had a clue as to how much real estate we bought adn then lost. To see Lyn talk about real estate is comical for me, but just one more cheap parlor trick for the LYM and LYMettes.
xlcr4life@hotmail.com

09-21-2008, 07:19 PM

earnest_one

Interesting, Amusing, and sad too, considering Ken and Jeremiah, et. al. Eaglebeak,
Stylistically alone your "bold" interjections into LL's dialogue fragments are very attractive to the eye and make all the difference.
But your comments and semi-snide, wholly humorous and truthful remarks make for a nice, smooth read. It's a thousand times more interesting than the original blather.
I wouldn't waste a ten-millionth of a second reading the original stuff, but your contributions are very well done.
So... Bravo: Job well done.
My SAME encouragement applies to ALL of the other posters here recently, especially those who contributed analyses of the significance/relevance of LL's forecasts: Are they gold, gold foil, fool's gold, or used toilet paper?
It has been an interesting week or two on this board ++ hardly that unusual, but EXTERNAL events have certainly intervened to "liven" up the discussions here.
"Reality versus Delusion." Stay tuned: Audio visual details coming up on the 11 o'clock news!
Best Wishes to Everyone with a Good Heart (good in PRACTICE, not simply in "theory").
earnest_one

09-21-2008, 08:43 PM

poe

Hillary vs Bush vs LaRouche? What's the Difference?

I recently posted an attack on LaRouche's claim that the current wave of bankruptcies of major financial institutions means that, since he was right about the collapse of the banking system, he was right about everything else, including the election. In the course of that post I promised that, if Hillary Clintom were to immediately introduce Lyn's "Homeowners and Bank Protection Act" that I would owe both Lyn anf Hillary a big apology. So, when I read the post on LaRouchePac about Hillary's recent floor speech : http://www.larouchepac.com/news/2008/09/19/larouche-hot-fight.html , I went to Hillary's Senate Website: http://clinton.senate.gov/news/statements/details.cfm?id=303208&& to try to see whether or not I owe an apology. I have to admit that I am still confused.
#1)
The LPAC article (http://www.larouchepac.com/news/2008/09/19/larouche-hot-fight.html ) makes some sort of big distinction between Clinton's Reconstruction Finance Corporation and the Resolution Trust Corporation being pushed by others:

Quote:

In his speech today Charles Schumer explicitly called for the creation of a Reconstruction Finance Corporation (RFC), modelled on that created by Franklin Roosevelt, in opposition to the rival proposal for the creation of a Resolution Trust Corporation (RTC), which is being pushed by Henry Paulson among others.
Also, today Hillary Clinton made a series of proposals, prominently including the revival of another Roosevelt agency, the Home Owner's Loan Corporation (HOLC).

But on Hillary's Website (http://clinton.senate.gov/news/statements/details.cfm?id=303208&& ) , she uses the terms interchangeably:

Quote:

Create a new entity to buy up and quarantine toxic mortgage securities that are dragging down the markets which would allow the markets to stabilize. Last spring Senator Clinton was among the first to call for a new entity modeled after the successful Depression-era Home Owners' Loan Corporation (HOLC) or the Resolution Trust Corporation (RTC) created after the Savings and Loan crisis.

  1. 2)
    Lyn is condemning the Bush Administration Bailout and praising Hillary's "Home Owners' Loan Corporation", but according to Hillary's Website (http://clinton.senate.gov/news/statements/details.cfm?id=303208&& ) , the purpose of the "Home Owners' Loan Corporation" is to, "buy up and quarantine toxic mortgage securities that are dragging down the markets which would allow the markets to stabilize"
    Isn't that the same thing that the Fed Bailout is doing? Maybe I am missing something, but I am very unclear as to what the differances , if any, between the Bush, Dodd, Frank, Clinton, and LaRouche plans actually are. All of them seem to involve the govenment buying up bad mortgages from banks. The only differences seem to be which government agenacy does the buying and which politician takes the credit. Am I missing something? Do I owe anyone an apology or not? Exes, LYMies and Boomers are all invited to respond.
09-21-2008, 09:14 PM

boomer70

the left and economic analysis

Quote:
Originally Posted by scrimscraw
The Left, which LHL was an active participant in for decades, produced numerous Marxist analyses for most of the 20th century predicting the eminent collapse of Capitalism.


please direct us to any of these analyses published in the 70s.

09-21-2008, 11:14 PM

boomer70

question

Quote:
Originally Posted by larouchetruth
And by the same token, this is no typical boom-bust cycle. It was driven, like the S&L crisis, by specific misdeeds by major corporations, banks and financial funds and was totally avoidable had mortgage lending not been fraudulent and had derivatives been regulated as they should have been.

this, it seems to me, sums up a major theme of your post, and that the theme could also be expressed by saying that the continual lurching of the world economy for the last 20 years or so is the effect of mistaken actions by various individuals (short-sighted design of wall street automation, destruction of regulatory activity by the neocons, etc.), as opposed to self-destructive processes which are fundamental to capitalism and which can only be slowed by the actions of individuals peopling the system. am i correct in this interpretation of your statement? and would you agree/disagree that one effect of the lurching has been a massive destruction of human productivity?

09-21-2008, 11:44 PM

boomer70

Quote:
Originally Posted by poe
Isn't that the same thing that the Fed Bailout is doing? Maybe I am missing something, but I am very unclear as to what the differances , if any, between the Bush, Dodd, Frank, Clinton, and LaRouche plans actually are. All of them seem to involve the govenment buying up bad mortgages from banks. The only differences seem to be which government agenacy does the buying and which politician takes the credit.

useful discussion of the current mayhem must have as its fundamental question whether ownership of the means of production ++ including the financial system ++ is to be public or private. all of the above-listed creatures support the latter; this feature of their positions ++ whatever their other connivings/fantasies ++ can result only in the continued destruction of our productive capacity.
often a simple truth seems doctrinaire.

09-22-2008, 12:07 AM

scrimscraw

all fall down, go boom

Quote:
Originally Posted by boomer70
please direct us to any of these analyses published in the 70s.

I don't think that web-based archives are yet available that include digital versions of all the left sectarian literature of the '70s, so directing you to those analyses with URLs is a tough proposition. And, besides, I'm mostly generalizing from memory.
But, if I am not mistaken, the whole Maoist left thought that imperialism's contradictions were sharpening; the national liberation support movement types thought that neo-colonialism was being attacked on multiple fronts; ultra-leftists such as the I.C.C. were rattling on about capitalist crisis; the Weather Underground and its supporters at least initially thought that revolution was on the horizon. And I've seen Trotskist writings from the 70s that thought that Late Capitalism was on the ropes.
Of course, not all of this precisely matches LHL's overheated predictions of a New Dark Ages, if that's the point of your request. But, my modest point was that there is a long tradition of Marxist analysis that insisted (whether correctly or not) that Capitalism could not sustain itself (at least in anything resembling a benign fashion) in the long run. This was summed up in the slogan "Socialism or Barbarism," which meant that given the inherent downward trajectory of Capitalism that either the working class rallied and instituted socialism or the ruling class would move towards fascism in an attempt to maintain power. Lyn shares a fair amount with that tradition, though of course it has been Bizarro-ized.

09-22-2008, 08:33 PM

boomer70

different memory

Quote:
Originally Posted by scrimscraw
But, if I am not mistaken, the whole Maoist left thought that imperialism's contradictions were sharpening; the national liberation support movement types thought that neo-colonialism was being attacked on multiple fronts; ultra-leftists such as the I.C.C. were rattling on about capitalist crisis; the Weather Underground and its supporters at least initially thought that revolution was on the horizon. And I've seen Trotskist writings from the 70s that thought that Late Capitalism was on the ropes.


the LC was the only credible org which was basing its work on another depression. everybody else was talking about how capitalism had become depression proof. that it is how i remember the 70s. i would be very grateful if someone would do some research on this. right now other things are preventing me from doing it myself.

09-23-2008, 08:26 PM

poe

Volker Measures and "The Model" ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by scrimscraw
Perhaps many ex-LC members are convinced that the LC had an accurate take on how things were at the moment that coincided with their induction into the org. A uniquely accurate take. Fine. Don't let me rain on your parade.
However, my memory of the left in the 70s, is that LC was NOT the only "credible" (!!) org predicting an "eminent collapse of Capitalism" (my original phrasing, not your "basing its work on another depression".)
But that exact phrasing aside, I don't think that "everybody else was talking about how capitalism had become depression proof" is an accurate description of the Left from 1970-1979. I don't think it is an accurate description of the post-1979 Left , either.
Now, it may be that the LC was the only nominally Left group that pushed the threat of immediate economic collapse (and a New Dark Ages) to the front of its propaganda during the 70s. Could be.
Perhaps you can research this when you are not so busy.

My recollections may not be 100% accurate, but I remember something like the following about the late 70s, early 80's:

I first came around the organization around 1979 or so. I remember that all the EIRs and campaign pamphlets had a graph or chart comparing the "LaRouche-Reimann Model's" forecast about the effects of the "Volker Measures" on the US Economy to what actually happened. I remember that the two graphs were very close to each other. I only saw these forecasts after what they predicted supposedly happened, not before ( I wasn't around yet before), so I can't verify for certain how accurate the forecasts were, but the charts seemed impressive at the time.

But then Lyn assembled a team of leading members to computerize "The Model", even though he repeatedly claimed that a computer could not measure the non-linear basis of the economy. About the same time that this project got started, the forecasts of "The Model" became less and less accurate. Lyn started issueing Internal Memos accusing the members of the team for blocking on what he was trying to tell them. Years later, many members of the Economics team left the organization, some of them landing jobs with the Establishment. Lyn later claimed that the failure of the project and it's inability to forecast accuratly was due to the corruption of these members by the Establishment.
To sum it up. I recall the accuracey of EIR forecasting being very high in the late 70's and then taking a sudden collapse in the early 80's.I don't know the reason, but there are a few differnt possibilities{
1) My recollection is wrong.
or
2) The graphs and charts that I recall were not accurate representations either of what was acctually forecast and/or what really happened in the Economy.
or
3) The model worked until Lyn intervened into the project but his advice sabotaged it.

or the exact opposite of 3)
4) The model was a success as long as the team members were taking direction from Lyn, but then started failing as they became increasingly corrupted by the Establishmet.

or, lastly
5) The accuracy of the original forecasts was based on, not the success of the model, but rather, upon the accuracy of the political intelligence the Organization had gathered about Volker and the Trilateral Commission's demands, just before taking power, that the United States had to drastically reduce its standard of living. In other words, we knew that Volker intended on deliberately wrecking the US Economy, so we predicted that he would. Our forecast was based on our understanding his intentions, not on some mathematical model.

I tend to lean toward number 5 as the correct explanation, myself, but I am not really sure which one is right. I do, however, remember the quality of our forecasting taking a sudden plunge around this time. Any comments? Is there anyone on this board who worked on the Model?

09-23-2008, 08:50 PM

boomer70

evidence would be nice

Quote:
Originally Posted by scrimscraw
However, my memory of the left in the 70s, is that LC was NOT the only "credible" (!!) org predicting an "eminent collapse of Capitalism" (my original phrasing, not your "basing its work on another depression".)

it would be nice if you could point to some evidence for your statement.

09-23-2008, 09:40 PM

borisbad

Comment to Poe
One thing to remember in the 70s and 80s perhaps is that the people in the various sectors at the EIR especially did have some type of credible connections with people who actually worked in different fields, i.e. real physicists and engineers working in nuclear and fusion, real economists working on Wall St. and various institutions, etc. So in order to be credible with these people (after all EIR was being marketed to businessmen, etc.) the people who wrote for the sectors had to absorb some real expertise in these fields. This is why some of the people in the economics sector did go on to establish actual careers at various financial houses and at economics and financial publications. Same with people in places like the Asia Sector. I would estimate that it was to the extent that these people had actual contacts with people away from Lyn that their expertise would appear to have been heightened and to th degree they kept themselves chained to proving whatever LaRouche wanted them to prove they discredited their own work, and ultimately had to leave. I doubt that it had anything to do with their being corrupted. Obviously some of what they wrote was considered credible enough to be able to market their talents in the real world.

09-23-2008, 10:03 PM

shadok

The larouche-riemann model

What I heard is that Lyn didn't like the L-R model because it wasn't forecasting what he wanted, that is a Depression worse than in the 1930s... That story would make sense because typical of him. He probably also despised (or was scared by) the expertise being developed among his "colleagues" at the time. As I posted some time ago, if this model really worked, we could have raised millions legally and would have accessed politically to the top of the "Establishment". We could have used this model to evaluate the positive impact on the real economy our numerous titanic projects would have supposedly created. We didn't, because it